Tone Rules - Reading

[Wentworth]

Most people recommend not studying grammar at the beginner stage, which sounds good to me. I always took that to mean really deep things like the difference between what adverbs and adjectives are and how they differ in English.

I notice that some words have tone markers and others don't - The written markers seem easy enough to remember, but I've been wondering why some use markers and others don't - I don't know if they were both introduced at the same time or what, but it would seem easier to just have a written marker - just wondering.

I'm studying Lesson 3 of 'Teach Yourself Thai' by David Smyth and the end section deals with how to know the tone if there are no markers. He explains and then gives a table to help, which deals with Consonant class, Live/dead and long/short vowel.

Though this is obviously grammar, my initial thought was 'I think I really ought to learn this'; how on earth do people remember this? Is it a case of just meticulously applying the rules and eventually you'll remember it or maybe experience eg, you can tell by the context alongside your spoken word knowledge bank?

[Richard W]

The history of tone marking is that initially there were three tones for live syllables and just one for dead syllables. The commonest tone was written with no tone mark, the second tone was indicated by one stroke, and the third tone was written with two strokes, that have changed over the centuries to become mai tho. Then there was a big change in Thai which merged many pairs of initial consonants, except that the difference was left in the tones. At one point there were six contrasting tones, but two merged, giving us the five tones we have today. Meanwhile, short and long-vowelled dead syllables with low consonants developed different tones, giving us the three tones we have today. As a result of loanwords if nothing else, these three tones can now be used on short or long-vowelled syllables, though some combinations are rare.

For the tone classes of the continents, see http://www.thai-lang...tion-consonants , especially the colour-coded table. If you know alphabetical order, you almost get the tone classes for free.

For the rules for tone mark of lack thereof, start from the live syllable rules for mid consonants. These also give the Thai names of the tones. This then provides the rule for the other cases - at least, this is how I learnt the rules. Eventually some of the combinations will stick in your memory, rather than having to work through the rules.

Mai tri and mai chattawa indicate specific tones irrespective of the consonant class. They were added because the mid-class consonants did not come in pairs, so initial consonants plus a 3-way choice of mark (none/mai ek/mai tho) could not indicate five different tones.

High and mid differ only in in live syllables with no tone mark. The sequence of tones for low class consonants differs from mid by omitting the 'low' tone (siang ek).

If there is a tone mark, the difference between live and dead is irrelevant. With one exception, dead syllables with no tone mark have the tone that would be implied by mai ek. The exception can, purely as a memory aid, be thought of as dead syllables not having long enough to fall, so low consonant, dead syllable, short vowel yields high tone, not falling tone.

[Wentworth]

Many thanks, that was very informative. I'll work on the link you gave along with your other suggestions.

Much appreciated.

[culicine]

Many thanks, that was very informative. I'll work on the link you gave along with your other suggestions.

Much appreciated.

From the table, I made a flow chart using Smart Draw. That helps me speed up the process to find out what the tone is. I think kids start out by learning basics , e,g. a long vowel sound at the end with a low or mid initial consonant gives a final Mid tone.

This is a good site you can use. http://www.seasite.niu.edu/thai/maanii1/maaniireaders.htm

I've been in LoS a long time, but this is my first serious attempt at reading/writing Thai. You can't avoid grammar really, but the more you read simple passages, the clearer it will become. And I've still got a long way to go! Good luck..

[tgeezer]

It may look like a lot of rules for words without tone marks but they are few, and easily remembered if you know the alphabet, your problem is that you have too much to research all at once.

คา ขัด คาส คัด ขาว they all begin with kh some live some dead, you need to be able to recognise those features before you can apply the rules, they are not the rules.

[leosmith]

Most people recommend not studying grammar at the beginner stage

Some do. Most courses start grammar in the beginning though.

this is obviously grammar

Is it? I think of that as alphabet/pronunciation work.

how on earth do people remember this?

Work tons of examples. Do all the exercises in your text as a bare minimum. Check your pronunciation. Be really picky at this stage, and it will pay off.

[djayz]

I have to

Most people recommend not studying grammar at the beginner stage

Some do. Most courses start grammar in the beginning though.

this is obviously grammar

Is it? I think of that as alphabet/pronunciation work.

how on earth do people remember this?

Work tons of examples. Do all the exercises in your text as a bare minimum. Check your pronunciation. Be really picky at this stage, and it will pay off.

I have to second this. The more time you invest now at the beginner stage, the less time you'll have to invest later on (plus less time looking back at what you should have learnt at the beginning).

From experience, I can remember quite a few tones without having to work out the tone. Good luck.

[Briggsy]

I absolutely recommend getting the tone rules off-pat at the beginning. I would not say they are grammar. They are a key part of spelling and pronunciation.

The method I used which was very, very helpful were charts of "nonsense syllables". Just keep banging them out until your brain automatically comes up with the correct tone without reference to the rules. It will work.

A related point is that if you don't do this, you will fall into the trap of the majority of foreigners who try to speak Thai in that you will 'พูดเพี้ยน' which for most Thais refers to foreigners speaking with totally incorrect or non-existent tone use.

So I would really heavily focus on the link between spelling and pronunciation as early as possible. Tone usage is an inherent part of pronunciation.

[kriswillems]

Most Thai people don't actually know the tone rules.

In school they learnt the tone of groups of similar sounding syllables.

They start with live and open syllables

Then they move to the live and open syllables with tone marks

Then they move on to the live closed syllables

Then they move on the dead syllables that end on a short vowel

After that they move on to the dead syllables of high and mid class, with a short vowel that end on a B, K and T sounds.

After that they move on to the dead syllables of high and mid class, with a long vowel that end on a B, K and T sounds.

Then they go to the dead syllables of of low class with a short vowel

Then they go to the dead syllables of of low class with a long vowel

Finally they apply to marks on low class syllables

These steps are part of the process of learning to read.

Even children of 6 years old can read most of the tones correctly and they don't know any rule. Just because of the huge number of examples they got they can almost automatically decide how to pronounce a syllable.

When you become a more advanced reader, your brain will get trained in the same way.

Edited January 3, 2013 by kriswillems

[BringMeSunshine]

As above - tone rules aren't grammar; you can't avoid them and ultimately it just comes down to doing lots and lots of practice.

You could try making up some kind of memory device to get you started in the early stages.

One of mine was to remember the embarassment in victorian society when recently DEAD men got erections. The LOWER CLASSES were embarrassed when their DEAD relatives got (HIGH) erections, (although these started FALLING back down again after a LONG time). It wasn't a problem for the MIDDLE and HIGH CLASSES, because they were could afford to immediately bury their relatives LOW underground.

Did I say that out loud?

Of course, any memory device is just a crutch and you should discard it as soon as possible, but I found it useful early-on in those moments when I had a total brain-freeze or didn't have my crib-notes to hand.

Just do lots and lots of exercises. Unfortunately, Karaoke music videos don't have the tones included. So, once you've exhausted your textbook, try using phrasebooks, or the files at Langhub.

It is just as much effort to inwardly-digest the rules for 'parsing' unbroken strings of text into individual words. You can't avoid that either !

[BringMeSunshine]

p.s.

ps: I also recommend Tod's excellent article on asking "why" questions....

http://womenlearnthai.com/index.php/breaking-down-the-wall-o-whyz-when-learning-thai/

[Delight]

Maybe the world is simply full of academics and nerds.

Speaking as a nerd I quickly established that the academic approach ,with regards to tones ,was not for me.

So I developed a nerd approach.

Attached JPEG explains

[Richard W]

Attached JPEG explains

One quibble - mai tri and mai chattawa indicate high and rising regardless of the initial consonant. They are listed for mid consonants alone because they shouldn't be necessary for other consonants in standard Thai, though the apparent marginal presence of dead syllables with rising tone does necessitate usage with other consonants.

[culicine]

Most Thai people don't actually know the tone rules.

In school they learnt the tone of groups of similar sounding syllables.

They start with live and open syllables

Then they move to the live and open syllables with tone marks

Then they move on to the live closed syllables

Then they move on the dead syllables that end on a short vowel

After that they move on to the dead syllables of high and mid class, with a short vowel that end on a B, K and T sounds.

After that they move on to the dead syllables of high and mid class, with a long vowel that end on a B, K and T sounds.

Then they go to the dead syllables of of low class with a short vowel

Then they go to the dead syllables of of low class with a long vowel

Finally they apply to marks on low class syllables

These steps are part of the process of learning to read.

Even children of 6 years old can read most of the tones correctly and they don't know any rule. Just because of the huge number of examples they got they can almost automatically decide how to pronounce a syllable.

When you become a more advanced reader, your brain will get trained in the same way.

Would you suggest that is an appropriate order for learning the tone rules for adults like us?

[Delight]

Attached JPEG explains

One quibble - mai tri and mai chattawa indicate high and rising regardless of the initial consonant. They are listed for mid consonants alone because they shouldn't be necessary for other consonants in standard Thai, though the apparent marginal presence of dead syllables with rising tone does necessitate usage with other consonants.

I must confess that I fail to understand your quibble.

As per the supplied chart mái-​dtrii ไม้ตรี & mái-​jàt-​dtà~​waa ไม้จัตวา

are used with MID consonant group only.

Are you suggesting that they can also be used with LOW and HIGH

consonant groups?

[Richard W]

I must confess that I fail to understand your quibble.

As per the supplied chart mái-​dtrii ไม้ตรี & mái-​jàt-​dtà~​waa ไม้จัตวา

are used with MID consonant group only.

Are you suggesting that they can also be used with LOW and HIGH

consonant groups?

A very common misspelling of เค้ก 'cake' is เค๊ก. This may be wrong, but it occurs, and one should understand this usage when one encounters it.

Mai chattawa may occur on dead syllables with high initial consonant when representing Northern or North-Eastern dialect words. It commonly occurs in what I would take to be Central Thai on a low consonant in the particle น๋ะ.

Finally, see my post of 13 November 2011 near http://www.thaivisa....ct/page__st__50 for what the RID says. It seems that it is acceptable to use mai chattawa with both low and mid consonants.

[Delight]

I must confess that I fail to understand your quibble.

As per the supplied chart mái-​dtrii ไม้ตรี & mái-​jàt-​dtà~​waa ไม้จัตวา

are used with MID consonant group only.

Are you suggesting that they can also be used with LOW and HIGH

consonant groups?

A very common misspelling of เค้ก 'cake' is เค๊ก. This may be wrong, but it occurs, and one should understand this usage when one encounters it.

Mai chattawa may occur on dead syllables with high initial consonant when representing Northern or North-Eastern dialect words. It commonly occurs in what I would take to be Central Thai on a low consonant in the particle น๋ะ.

Finally, see my post of 13 November 2011 near http://www.thaivisa....ct/page__st__50 for what the RID says. It seems that it is acceptable to use mai chattawa with both low and mid consonants.

I think that you are the type of academic that nerds like me do well to avoid.

[tgeezer]

I must confess that I fail to understand your quibble.

As per the supplied chart mái-​dtrii ไม้ตรี & mái-​jàt-​dtà~​waa ไม้จัตวา

are used with MID consonant group only.

Are you suggesting that they can also be used with LOW and HIGH

consonant groups?

A very common misspelling of เค้ก 'cake' is เค๊ก. This may be wrong, but it occurs, and one should understand this usage when one encounters it.

Mai chattawa may occur on dead syllables with high initial consonant when representing Northern or North-Eastern dialect words. It commonly occurs in what I would take to be Central Thai on a low consonant in the particle น๋ะ.

Finally, see my post of 13 November 2011 near http://www.thaivisa....ct/page__st__50 for what the RID says. It seems that it is acceptable to use mai chattawa with both low and mid consonants.

I think that you are the type of academic that nerds like me do well to avoid.

I think I agree with you although I thought that a 'nerd' was simply someone who applies himself to study.

I see no justification for this;

"This may be wrong, but it occurs, and one should understand this usage when one encounters it."

Why should one need to understand a mistake? if you are learning standard Thai it is simply a mistake.

The tone rules as applied to standard Thai is enough to be getting on with for most learners.

[Richard W]

I see no justification for this;

"This may be wrong, but it occurs, and one should understand this usage when one encounters it."

Why should one need to understand a mistake? if you are learning standard Thai it is simply a mistake.

This view makes sense if one only learns to read Thai as an aid to producing or understanding spoken Thai. However, most communication contains mistakes. If one wants to understand normal written Thai, one will also have to deal with mistakes.

Or should I say that the semicolon in the quoted text is wrong, and ask what you meant?

The tone rules as applied to standard Thai is enough to be getting on with for most learners.

Just for reading, it actually simplifies the rules if mai tri and mai chattawa are extended to all types of initial. For writing, it would then be useful to learn that mai tri and mai chattawa should not be used if there is another way of indicating tone.

[tgeezer]

I see no justification for this;

"This may be wrong, but it occurs, and one should understand this usage when one encounters it."

Why should one need to understand a mistake? if you are learning standard Thai it is simply a mistake.

This view makes sense if one only learns to read Thai as an aid to producing or understanding spoken Thai. However, most communication contains mistakes. If one wants to understand normal written Thai, one will also have to deal with mistakes.

Or should I say that the semicolon in the quoted text is wrong, and ask what you meant?

The tone rules as applied to standard Thai is enough to be getting on with for most learners.

Just for reading, it actually simplifies the rules if mai tri and mai chattawa are extended to all types of initial. For writing, it would then be useful to learn that mai tri and mai chattawa should not be used if there is another way of indicating tone.

No need to ask what I mean by a typo, treat a mistake like เค๊ค in the same way.

Would there be any need for another way to indicate tone if the tone marks applied equally to every consonent? The alphabet could be reduced to twenty one letters and tones could be shown with tone marks.

[Richard W]

No need to ask what I mean by a typo, treat a mistake like เค๊ค in the same way.

That then comes down to tactics. Knowing that mai tri indicates a high tone makes it much easier to recognise เค๊ค as a non-standard from of เค๊ก, just as one can recognise เค็ก as an attempt to indicate a high tone. It would be much harder to recognise เค่ก as a typo for เค้ก. For one thing, เค่ก would be the correct spelling of *[FS]khek.

Would there be any need for another way to indicate tone if the tone marks applied equally to every consonent?

Obviously not. The Thai tone rules are an example of how a simple system (3 tones) can become quite complicated as a result of just seven hundred years of sound change. Mai tri and mai chattawa are just patches to accommodate the reinterpretation of the system as having 5 tones. Related scripts double up the mid consonants so that one only has low and high consonants.

[kriswillems]

Would you suggest that is an appropriate order for learning the tone rules for adults like us?

No, for a foreign adult it's probably best to learn the rules first.

This is how I remember the rules:

If a syllable has a tone marks : follow the mark (อ่ = low, อ้ = falling, อ๊ = high)

---- exception first consonant is low class: take the next tone

If the syllable has no tone marks:

--- and it is a life syllable: mid tone

-------- exception: first consonant is high class: rising tone

--- and it is dead syllable: low tone

-------- exception: the first consonant is low class

-------------and the vowel is short : high tone

-------------and the vowel is long : falling tone

A dead syllable is a syllable that ends on a short vowel of a p,t or k sound (all the other are life syllables)

The mid class consonants are: ก จ ฎ ฏ ด ต บ ป อ

The high class consonants are: ข ฃ ฉ ฐ ถ ผ ฝ ศ ษ ส ห

The low class consonants are : all the others

Edited January 6, 2013 by kriswillems

[dapsolapsalai]

there's a good anki deck that has examples of small words that you have to work out the tone for as well as memorising all the consonant names and classes. I didn't create it myself I have only used it and found it useful

https://ankiweb.net/shared/info/1937125324