There's A Secret War In Thailand No One's Talking About

[SteeleJoe]

The solution is quite simple, let every child on the planet have access to Charles Darwin's Theory of Evolution. If it stops one insane lunatic blowing themselves up or shooting up a school then its done its job hasent it?

Yeah, that has worked wonders so far, hasn't it?

(Hint: Darwin's Theory IS taught in US schools)

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[IrishIvan]

That's a fair analogy, Arkady.

2 differences are

1) Algeria was a colony. Thailand considers the Deep South to be part of an inviolate Thailand (that's another debate).

2) The French government and public may have had deep concerns about the indiscriminate killings and torture by govt forces and militias. The Thai govt., army and public don't.

Point 1) is only partly correct because France also considered Algeria a part of metropolitan France. Administratively it was divided into three departments that elected deputies to sit in the French legislature. Problem was not so much that the majority wanted independence but that they resented the fact that to be considered French citizens and have a vote they had to made a declaration of acceptance of French universal law and not be subject to sharia and other local custom laws. Effectively that meant that most Muslims were disenfranchised. In Thailand at the time of the Algerian War voting rights were not important because the country was ruled by a series of military dictatorships. If you were to regularize the voting system in French Algeria and move the Deep South a couple of hundred kilometres away from the Thai mainland, the administrative differences would be much less.

Another important point is that the non-Muslim population of Algeria in the 50s was 14%. That is much higher than the non-M population of the Deep South which I believe is less than 5%, despite persistent efforts at colonisation by the government. Most French people at the time had deep sympathy for the whites in Algeria who had created a civilisation in the towns that made them look very much like France, whereas the countryside was almost exclusively Muslim.

Point 2) is quite correct and therein lies the big difference. France in the 50s not only had a swathe of socialist press but it also had a large and vocal communist party that sympathized with the FLN insurgents in Algeria. Thus, even though there was a great deal of sympathy for the pieds noirs colonists the brutality of the security forces from the Battle of Algiers on was persistently highlighted by left wing journalists and caused serious doubts in the minds of the French public. Thailand has no main stream political movement that sympathises with the rebels and the media is largely content to sweep the attrocities of the security forces under the carpet, while highlighting attacks against Buddhists.

Key word here is "lies" now Im not sure but someone is telling them for the last few thousand years...Is it the Priests? Is it the Politicians or is it both?

[IrishIvan]

The solution is quite simple, let every child on the planet have access to Charles Darwin's Theory of Evolution. If it stops one insane lunatic blowing themselves up or shooting up a school then its done its job hasent it?

Yeah, that has worked wonders so far, hasn't it?

(Hint: Darwin's Theory IS taught in US schools)

Sent from my iPad using ThaiVisa ap

So is religion isnt it?

[SteeleJoe]

The solution is quite simple, let every child on the planet have access to Charles Darwin's Theory of Evolution. If it stops one insane lunatic blowing themselves up or shooting up a school then its done its job hasent it?

Yeah, that has worked wonders so far, hasn't it?

(Hint: Darwin's Theory IS taught in US schools)

Sent from my iPad using ThaiVisa ap

So is religion isnt it?

Not typically, no.

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[IrishIvan]

The solution is quite simple, let every child on the planet have access to Charles Darwin's Theory of Evolution. If it stops one insane lunatic blowing themselves up or shooting up a school then its done its job hasent it?

Yeah, that has worked wonders so far, hasn't it?

(Hint: Darwin's Theory IS taught in US schools)

Sent from my iPad using ThaiVisa ap

So is religion isnt it?

And its working a treat right? The first crusade was fought by Pope Urban the 2nd, and correct me if my memory is a little bit hazy but isnt there a Holy war going on in the middle East right now?

Edited January 1, 2013 by IrishIvan

[SteeleJoe]

The solution is quite simple, let every child on the planet have access to Charles Darwin's Theory of Evolution. If it stops one insane lunatic blowing themselves up or shooting up a school then its done its job hasent it?

Yeah, that has worked wonders so far, hasn't it?

(Hint: Darwin's Theory IS taught in US schools)

Sent from my iPad using ThaiVisa ap

So is religion isnt it?

And its working a treat right? The first crusade was fought by Pope Urban the 2nd, and correct me if my memory is a little bit hazy but isnt there a Holy war going on in the middle East right now?

And with that, it becomes apparent that with all due respect there's not much point in an exchange with you. But allow me to give you one thing to take away: by no means did religious conflict or wars (ostensibly) based on religion begin with the first Crusade.

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[dcutman]

As far as this situation not being talked about... at least in the U.S. the lack of news coverage is mostly due to 'myopia' of our news media... We have nothing in the U.S. that covers international news like the BBC... American news producers want to SELL - get advertising money - try to prosper or just stay afloat. By in large the American population is not interested in what goes on around the world... Most people I run into think Thailand is Taiwan... It is a combination of disinterest, ignorance (mostly willful) and a money focused news media - that only sells what the public will sit still to hear - most of it fluff...

You so right.The only Americans with any knowledge of world issues are those who are widely travelled.the rest of them are fed a diet of ilinformed nonsense and the majority are too lazy to use the internet to educate themselves beyond websites which enforce their narrow minded view of life outside their county or state.

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I am not disagreeing, but do you think the Americans are the only ones lazy to educate themselves on world issues? Or are the only ones with a narrow minded views what goes on outside their own countries?

Why is it important to "educate" themselves? Why should Americans care? . They get blamed when they interfere and blamed when they don't. Best just close their eyes to everything. This really is Thailand's own problem to solve.

I didnt say it was important, or they should even care. I was just asking the question to Phetaroi. I agree we get bashed in all directions, and find it amusing coming from some of the nationalities doing the bashing. I along with most Americans have thick skin, so I dont think it best just close your eyes, IMO.

[Thongkorn]

Six years ago I was down in South Thailand, there was a war going on then. The people down there do not class themselfs as Thai or Malasian, They want there own attonamy, Both Countrys have there fingers in the pie causing problems and blaming it on the people, Dont belive every thing you read or hear on TV.

Edited January 1, 2013 by Thongkorn

[khunPer]

Much of the problem is economic in nature. Malay Muslims in the Deep South see that the neighbouring states in Malaysia that have similar demographics and large Muslim majorities are significantly more prosperous and assume that the reason for this is that are systematically neglected by the Siamese government in Bangkok.

They also note that local Malay Muslims in the Malaysian states can have important positions like state governor and police chief, whereas all key jobs in the Deep South are held by Thai Chinese transferred from elsewhere on short tours of duty as if in an occupied country.

Finally, whereas Malaysia's official language is Malay or Bahasa Malaysia and business between the various races tends to be done in English which is neutral, their Malay dialect is virtually outlawed in Thailand and, in fact, was outlawed by the military dictator, Sarit, who made it a criminal offence to speak Malay. They are insulted further by the Thai insistence on referring to the Malay language as Jawi which is in fact the Arabic style script in use in the South. The Chaturon report commissioned by the Thaksin government in addition to recommending limited local autonomy, also recommended that Malay should be given the status as a second language that could be used in government offices. However, establishment worthies including Gen Prem claimed this was treasonous. Of course, making Malay a second language would introduce difficulties for the policy of transferring monoglot Thais from elsewhere. Francophones in Belgium faced similar difficulties in the 60s when it became compulsory for civil servants to pass exams in Flemish and French.

Malaysia doesn't want these provinces for obvious reasons and they are clearly economically unviable as an independent nation, not to mention the security threat that might pose to both Thailand and Malaysia. The solution is clearly some form of local autonomy, elevation of the status of Malay to an official language and the pumping in of investment by the Thai government to raise the standard of living. Stability would then pave for the way for foreign investment and the development of a tourist industry. However, this is not much different from the policies advocated by Chaturon and the bigoted official Thai mindset needs to make considerable advances to see the solution for what it is and stop labeling it as treason against the constitutionally sanctified indivisibility of the Kingdom. It is not.

The problem arises from the three southern provinces never was a ‘natural part’ of the Thai nation. They were finally included in the nation some 100 years ago – the 1909 Treaty of the Borders with Britain and France – compromise for loss of land, mainly in the east to French Indochina (Cambodia, Laos & Vietnam). However, in the years before, the Siam southern border was drawn even a bit further south on maps from 1887-1909. I believe to remember, the southern area originally were a kind of independent sultanate and later taxable tributaries. The revolts began back in 1902, mainly caused by new taxes.

But so well described by Arkady, the problem may not be easily solved, like a voting for independence or the area to be incorporated in Malaysia – which for Westerners may seem like the right solution. Furthermore, the Thais may ‘loose face’ if the three southern provinces are lost now.

[RogueLeader]

Unfortunately, more and more conflicts around the world have that common denominator.......muslim.

Need I say more?

Yes, I think you do. What do you mean?

[Honkie]

The hypocrisy drags on seemingly forever, and this DT article is part of it. For starters, 'Muslim insurgency/terrorism' is false labeling. Their religion isn't the issue, even here in Pattaya there is a bloody Mosque. Their Malay language and culture are being quashed. Muslim-terrorism fear mongers have covered and lied about the causes of the conflict every single day for the last eight years. Is it a war? 5,400 victims in 8 years, many of them perished in massacres by the security forces. Thats 675 on average per year in the 3 provinces, 225 in one province. Now it's difficult to get statistics on crime in Thailand, here is a website that says more than 20,000 murders with firearms per year. http://www.nationmas...s-with-firearms

Can we estimate the total number of homicides at 30,000 per year, including those beaten to death, knifed, strangled etc.? Thailand has 76 provinces, so we get an average of 395 homicides per province. It's far more likely to become the victim of a homicide or traffic accident in Pattaya, than of a bomb in the South. And that's what this 'war' is also being used for, to keep crime and traffic risks under the rug. Of course there are no tourists anymore in the South. That's the land of trigger-happy security forces with assault guns and grenades, and a shoot-first-ask-questions-later policy.

So you have a solution to end all this ?

[Pimay1]

As far as this situation not being talked about... at least in the U.S. the lack of news coverage is mostly due to 'myopia' of our news media... We have nothing in the U.S. that covers international news like the BBC... American news producers want to SELL - get advertising money - try to prosper or just stay afloat. By in large the American population is not interested in what goes on around the world... Most people I run into think Thailand is Taiwan... It is a combination of disinterest, ignorance (mostly willful) and a money focused news media - that only sells what the public will sit still to hear - most of it fluff...

You so right.The only Americans with any knowledge of world issues are those who are widely travelled.the rest of them are fed a diet of ilinformed nonsense and the majority are too lazy to use the internet to educate themselves beyond websites which enforce their narrow minded view of life outside their county or state.

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I am not disagreeing, but do you think the Americans are the only ones lazy to educate themselves on world issues? Or are the only ones with a narrow minded views what goes on outside their own countries?

Deleted post

Aah yes the old American bashing team. Have at it boys. I love it. And I know why you guys do it. I hope you get to visit our country sometime. Enough said. Edited January 1, 2013 by Scott

[OzMick]

The good news is that the atheists are winning. Polytheism is dead, only one more god to go.

Yeah right...then we will have to contend with the likes of Stalin, Pol Pot,Mao etc

All glorious atheists.....

....by the way...I've never met an atheist that respects human life...usually they detest humans...

I've known several atheists that had tremendous respect for human life. You might want to research secular humanist on the web. Your isolation from human loving atheists should not color your view of all atheists. And I think maybe OzMick was making a bit of a joke.

What was your 1st clue ,Sherlock?

I know many atheists, but have never met one who felt it necessary to despise or kill somebody else because they were religious. I also have a healthy respect for human life, and certainly cannot conceive the idea of killing to further the cause of atheism. I also have no problems when others question the validity of my atheism - point out that there are things I don't know and/or can't explain. but it is certainly more rational to say that I don't know than to believe some all-powerful invisible entity is the solution to all lack of knowledge.

[Scott]

Anti-Islam posts have been removed as well as replies. Off-topic bashing posts will be removed shortly.

Stay on topic.

[Pimay1]

Staying on topic, the Thailand conflict is included in this list.

Of the 22 world conflicts around the world, 21 are muslim. This post is in no way muslim bashing. It is only an informative post.

Current conflicts and wars: Source: http:/www.religioustolerance.org/curr_war.htm Some of the world's current "hot spots" which have as their base a significant component of religious intolerance are listed below:

Country and Main religious groups involved 1. Afghanistan Extreme radical Fundamentalist Muslim terrorist groups & non-Muslim Osama bin Laden heads a terrorist group called Al Quada (The Source) whose headquarters were in Afghanistan. 2. Bosnia Serbian Orthodox Christians, Roman Catholic, Muslims 3. Cote d'Ivoire Muslims, Indigenous, Christians 4. Cyprus Christians & Muslims 5. East Timor Christians & Muslims 6. Indonesia, province of Ambon Christians & Muslims 7. Kashmir Hindus and Muslims 8. Kosovo Serbian Orthodox Christians, Muslims 9. Kurdistan Christians, Muslims Assaults on Christians (Protestant, Chaldean Catholic & Assyrian Orthodox). Bombing campaign underway. 10. Macedonia Macedonian Orthodox Christians & Muslims 11. Middle East Jews, Muslims, &Christians 12. Nigeria Christians, Animists, & Muslims 13. Pakistan Suni & Shi'ite Muslims 14. Philippines Christians & Muslims 15. Russia, Chechnya Russian Orthodox Christians, Muslims. The Russian army attacked the breakaway region. Muslims had allegedly blown up buildings in Moscow. Many atrocities have been alleged. 16. Serbia, province of Vojvodina Serbian Orthodox & Roman Catholics 17. Sri Lanka Buddhists & Hindus Tamils

Additional conflicts

19. Thailand: Pattani province: Buddists and Muslims 20. Bangladesh: Muslim-Hindu (Bengalis) and Buddists (Chakmas) 21. Tajikistan: intra-Islamic conflict

[maturebrit]

its sad that the British press raised this issue. Dont blame Buddhist or Muslims for this... blame the politicians that redrew the border after WW2 The part of the south of Thailand was Malaysia before

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[TPI]

The ruling class are only concerned about Bankok, anywhere else is not important!

But the so-called 'ruling class' is not running the country....and for a short stint, haven't done so for the last decade.

Do you really belive that! Look around...What's changed since the last election, the shoes outside the door of Parliment, that's all.

[Thai at Heart]

The ruling class are only concerned about Bankok, anywhere else is not important!

But the so-called 'ruling class' is not running the country....and for a short stint, haven't done so for the last decade.

Do you really belive that! Look around...What's changed since the last election, the shoes outside the door of Parliment, that's all.

And look at the bunfight that has caused huh?

[Scott]

Off-topic post deleted. This is about Thailand's southern problem.

Please stay on topic.

[whybother]

its sad that the British press raised this issue. Dont blame Buddhist or Muslims for this... blame the politicians that redrew the border after WW2 The part of the south of Thailand was Malaysia before

It's never been part of Malaysia. It became part of Thailand before Malaysia existed.

[kamahele]

International news organizations would be reporting on the insurgency in the south if they felt it effected their readership / viewership in some way. As they don't seem to have been infiltrated with organizations known to target westerners as yet, the western news organizations don't report frequently on the situation. They did however report on the attempts on Israelis in BKK last year. The insurgency in the Philippines gets more coverage in the USA due their association with anti western organizations. That and the fact that the Philippines is for all intents and purposes and former colony the of the USA (and have committed military advisors to the Philippines) is a reason for American news services to report more frequently on the situation.

[simple1]

Staying on topic, the Thailand conflict is included in this list.

Of the 22 world conflicts around the world, 21 are muslim. This post is in no way muslim bashing. It is only an informative post.

Current conflicts and wars: Source: http:/www.religioustolerance.org/curr_war.htm Some of the world's current "hot spots" which have as their base a significant component of religious intolerance are listed below:

Country and Main religious groups involved 1. Afghanistan Extreme radical Fundamentalist Muslim terrorist groups & non-Muslim Osama bin Laden heads a terrorist group called Al Quada (The Source) whose headquarters were in Afghanistan. 2. Bosnia Serbian Orthodox Christians, Roman Catholic, Muslims 3. Cote d'Ivoire Muslims, Indigenous, Christians 4. Cyprus Christians & Muslims 5. East Timor Christians & Muslims 6. Indonesia, province of Ambon Christians & Muslims 7. Kashmir Hindus and Muslims 8. Kosovo Serbian Orthodox Christians, Muslims 9. Kurdistan Christians, Muslims Assaults on Christians (Protestant, Chaldean Catholic & Assyrian Orthodox). Bombing campaign underway. 10. Macedonia Macedonian Orthodox Christians & Muslims 11. Middle East Jews, Muslims, &Christians 12. Nigeria Christians, Animists, & Muslims 13. Pakistan Suni & Shi'ite Muslims 14. Philippines Christians & Muslims 15. Russia, Chechnya Russian Orthodox Christians, Muslims. The Russian army attacked the breakaway region. Muslims had allegedly blown up buildings in Moscow. Many atrocities have been alleged. 16. Serbia, province of Vojvodina Serbian Orthodox & Roman Catholics 17. Sri Lanka Buddhists & Hindus Tamils

Additional conflicts

19. Thailand: Pattani province: Buddists and Muslims 20. Bangladesh: Muslim-Hindu (Bengalis) and Buddists (Chakmas) 21. Tajikistan: intra-Islamic conflict

Many instances of conflict in the above were kicked off as the result of Serb Christian orthodox aggression (break up of Yugoslavia) & launching a war of ethic cleansing against the Muslim community that had been in place for centuries. Same with Chechnya, but was a result of a Soviet invasion and Muslims identified the invaders as Christians as many undoubtedly were Russian orthodox Christian. Same concept applies to the US invasion of Iraq, with resultant anger against Iraqi & Kurdish Christians. Of course not saying that Islamic extremism is not equally guilty of horrific crimes.

Edited January 1, 2013 by simple1

[mccw]

The muslim guy, they are taught about Budism, but we are Muslim. Crazy, if you have so little faith in your own religion it must not be strong. Never knew that Budism was a subject on Thai schools.

Mind you not all Muslims are like this but there are some real crazy brainwashed types around. Abuse of power and such, yes i can understand that you fight against that, but not by targeting innocents. But fighting purely for religion when Buddhism isnt even promoted that much is crazy. Its been hundreds of years since they were an own state, give it up live in the present.

Fight it an other way, political like normal people do, even those Irish gave up.

Couple things:

1) Buddhism is taught in Thai schools.

2) If you don't think Buddhism is promoted much in Thailand, you are not thinking clearly.

3) If someone doesn't believe in a religion, I don't think it odd that I'd not want that religion taught to my child - especially if I was a devout believer in a religion that was inherently mutually exclusive with another religion. If that religion would be the very fundamental basis of my culture and way of life, that would be quite natural.

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Close all the mosques and institute Buddhist re-education for the parents aswell might help fix thier violence issues.

In all seriousness though; what's wrong with learning about other religions but practicing your own and then letting your kids decide as adults how they see life with thier own eyes? Part of a well rounded education should involve learning about all religions.

But for Muslims you are born a Muslim and deserve to die if ever change of belief.

[SteeleJoe]

The muslim guy, they are taught about Budism, but we are Muslim. Crazy, if you have so little faith in your own religion it must not be strong. Never knew that Budism was a subject on Thai schools.

Mind you not all Muslims are like this but there are some real crazy brainwashed types around. Abuse of power and such, yes i can understand that you fight against that, but not by targeting innocents. But fighting purely for religion when Buddhism isnt even promoted that much is crazy. Its been hundreds of years since they were an own state, give it up live in the present.

Fight it an other way, political like normal people do, even those Irish gave up.

Couple things:

1) Buddhism is taught in Thai schools.

2) If you don't think Buddhism is promoted much in Thailand, you are not thinking clearly.

3) If someone doesn't believe in a religion, I don't think it odd that I'd not want that religion taught to my child - especially if I was a devout believer in a religion that was inherently mutually exclusive with another religion. If that religion would be the very fundamental basis of my culture and way of life, that would be quite natural.

Sent from my iPad using ThaiVisa ap

Close all the mosques and institute Buddhist re-education for the parents aswell might help fix thier violence issues.

In all seriousness though; what's wrong with learning about other religions but practicing your own and then letting your kids decide as adults how they see life with thier own eyes? Part of a well rounded education should involve learning about all religions.

But for Muslims you are born a Muslim and deserve to die if ever change of belief.

Yes, because it's not as if Thai Buddhists are ever violent...oh, wait...

Nothing wrong with it as far as I'm concerned - it's the course I've chosen. But I'm guessing you are not religious or at the very least you are a believer in the majority religion of wherever you live. As I said in point #3, a true and devout believer would not be inclined, indeed from their point of view arguably SHOULD NOT be inclined, to be so open to other faiths.

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[hansnl]

Despite questionable facts, such as the number of deaths, it is a good thing to see at least an article written by the foreign press. It would be great to see more of such articles and articles that represent the Pattani separatist's background issues and point of view. Something that the Thais squash and ignore.

The way that this "Thai south" thing will come to an end will be after more and more journalists break the truth. When the non-Thais in the southern provinces establish a visible presence in world media things will start to change. Thais will lose their grip and control. Eventually, the Thais will just "walk out." No other choice really.

Maybe, just maybe.

However, in that case there might be a hefty price to be paid by muslims in the rest of Thailand.

Maybe, just maybe.

Edited January 1, 2013 by hansnl

[mccw]

The muslim guy, they are taught about Budism, but we are Muslim. Crazy, if you have so little faith in your own religion it must not be strong. Never knew that Budism was a subject on Thai schools.

Mind you not all Muslims are like this but there are some real crazy brainwashed types around. Abuse of power and such, yes i can understand that you fight against that, but not by targeting innocents. But fighting purely for religion when Buddhism isnt even promoted that much is crazy. Its been hundreds of years since they were an own state, give it up live in the present.

Fight it an other way, political like normal people do, even those Irish gave up.

Couple things:

1) Buddhism is taught in Thai schools.

2) If you don't think Buddhism is promoted much in Thailand, you are not thinking clearly.

3) If someone doesn't believe in a religion, I don't think it odd that I'd not want that religion taught to my child - especially if I was a devout believer in a religion that was inherently mutually exclusive with another religion. If that religion would be the very fundamental basis of my culture and way of life, that would be quite natural.

Sent from my iPad using ThaiVisa ap

Close all the mosques and institute Buddhist re-education for the parents aswell might help fix thier violence issues.

In all seriousness though; what's wrong with learning about other religions but practicing your own and then letting your kids decide as adults how they see life with thier own eyes? Part of a well rounded education should involve learning about all religions.

But for Muslims you are born a Muslim and deserve to die if ever change of belief.

Yes, because it's not as if Thai Buddhists are ever violent...oh, wait...

Nothing wrong with it as far as I'm concerned - it's the course I've chosen. But I'm guessing you are not religious or at the very least you are a believer in the majority religion of wherever you live. As I said in point #3, a true and devout believer would not be inclined, indeed from their point of view arguably SHOULD NOT be inclined, to be so open to other faiths.

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In a singliar or multi faith society I think all children SHOULD be educated about all religions. It's when groups are segregated and raised without any knowledge or understanding of each other that tribalism and conflict arise.

Personally I went to a Christian school where the bible was taught like fact and had chapel every morning, the Lord's Prayer before lunch. It put me off Christianity in a big way. Later I went to another school where we learnt the basics of the majour world religions. After school I continued reading about the main religions , also pagan beliefs and animism, spritual and other energy , elemental based beliefs / practices/ understandings. I have my own ideas based on the similarities between all and the dharma. I've also come to see the good message from Jesus separate from the dogma of the religions surrounding him.

People born in to religion who follow faith unquestioning, with out wider knowledge or mental inquiry are about as enlightened as those once believing the world to be flat or as the Buddha apparently put it- like the imagination of the outside world in the mind of a chick still in its egg.

Edited January 1, 2013 by mccw

[SteeleJoe]

In a singliar or multi faith society I think all children SHOULD be educated about all religions. It's when groups are segregated and raised without any knowledge or understanding of each other that tribalism and conflict arise.

Personally I went to a Christian school where the bible was taught like fact and had chapel every morning, the Lord's Prayer before lunch. It put me off Christianity in a big way. Later I went to another school where we learnt the basics of the majour world religions. After school I continued reading about the main religions , also pagan beliefs and animism, spritual and other energy , elemental based beliefs / practices/ understandings. I have my own ideas based on the similarities between all and the dharma. I've also come to see the good message from Jesus separate from the dogma of the religions surrounding him.

People born in to religion who follow faith unquestioning, with out wider knowledge or mental inquiry are about as enlightened as those once believing the world to be flat or as the Buddha apparently put it- like the imagination of the outside world in the mind of a chick still in its egg.

Not sure if my posts are horribly unclear or you are not reading them but you are, as they say, "preaching to the choir". I am a non believer (though for a while I called myself a Buddhist) who has spent decades learning about religion and other belief systems and superstitions (including those prevalent in this country). As stated, I choose that my children learn about it too.

But a truly devout believer in an Abrahamic faith can NOT be so open-minded and still be a devout believer - because a belief in one is an inherent and unqualified rejection of another as blasphemy and apostasy. That is and was always my point.

Oh, except I don't agree that a society needs segregation or ignorance of other faiths for tribalism and conflict to arise - though they certainly help!

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[Johpa]

The Southern Provinces are not property of Malaysia. It is a bit of a complicated situation historically, but in a nutshell: the way that kingdoms and kings worked in Southeast Asia is a bit different than what people think of in Europe and the way it is now. Now there is one King of Thailand, for the entire country, which is a unified country. Before, each city/regional area had a King. For example Naruasuan was the King of the city of Ayuthaya. And he was a subordinate King to the King of Burma, and he rebelled.

It is indeed complicated. If one us interested for a broader explanation that I strongly recommend reading Achaan Thongchai's excellent book Siam Mapped for a historical Southeast Asian perspectives on nationhood and sovereignty. Western concepts of colonialism and comparisons to Algeria do not apply well here. And to complicate matters even further, as others have noted, there are (1) dark forces (smugglers) exploiting this conflict, (2) there has been an influx of Saudi sponsored Wahabi madrasas over the past 20 years promoting their peculiar oil-funded brand of Islamic intolerance also exploiting this conflict, and (3) there are some true Pattani nationalists. But one must take notice, again as others have noted, that outside the south the Muslims in Thailand live quite comfortable alongside their Buddhist neighbors.

[Arkady]

Much of the problem is economic in nature. Malay Muslims in the Deep South see that the neighbouring states in Malaysia that have similar demographics and large Muslim majorities are significantly more prosperous and assume that the reason for this is that are systematically neglected by the Siamese government in Bangkok.

They also note that local Malay Muslims in the Malaysian states can have important positions like state governor and police chief, whereas all key jobs in the Deep South are held by Thai Chinese transferred from elsewhere on short tours of duty as if in an occupied country.

Finally, whereas Malaysia's official language is Malay or Bahasa Malaysia and business between the various races tends to be done in English which is neutral, their Malay dialect is virtually outlawed in Thailand and, in fact, was outlawed by the military dictator, Sarit, who made it a criminal offence to speak Malay. They are insulted further by the Thai insistence on referring to the Malay language as Jawi which is in fact the Arabic style script in use in the South. The Chaturon report commissioned by the Thaksin government in addition to recommending limited local autonomy, also recommended that Malay should be given the status as a second language that could be used in government offices. However, establishment worthies including Gen Prem claimed this was treasonous. Of course, making Malay a second language would introduce difficulties for the policy of transferring monoglot Thais from elsewhere. Francophones in Belgium faced similar difficulties in the 60s when it became compulsory for civil servants to pass exams in Flemish and French.

Malaysia doesn't want these provinces for obvious reasons and they are clearly economically unviable as an independent nation, not to mention the security threat that might pose to both Thailand and Malaysia. The solution is clearly some form of local autonomy, elevation of the status of Malay to an official language and the pumping in of investment by the Thai government to raise the standard of living. Stability would then pave for the way for foreign investment and the development of a tourist industry. However, this is not much different from the policies advocated by Chaturon and the bigoted official Thai mindset needs to make considerable advances to see the solution for what it is and stop labeling it as treason against the constitutionally sanctified indivisibility of the Kingdom. It is not.

The problem arises from the three southern provinces never was a ‘natural part’ of the Thai nation. They were finally included in the nation some 100 years ago – the 1909 Treaty of the Borders with Britain and France – compromise for loss of land, mainly in the east to French Indochina (Cambodia, Laos & Vietnam). However, in the years before, the Siam southern border was drawn even a bit further south on maps from 1887-1909. I believe to remember, the southern area originally were a kind of independent sultanate and later taxable tributaries. The revolts began back in 1902, mainly caused by new taxes.

But so well described by Arkady, the problem may not be easily solved, like a voting for independence or the area to be incorporated in Malaysia – which for Westerners may seem like the right solution. Furthermore, the Thais may ‘loose face’ if the three southern provinces are lost now.

You're absolutely right that the 3 southernmost provinces are not a natural part of Thailand but France was not a party to the treaty which was the Anglo-Siamese Treaty of 1909. An earlier treaty, the 1826 Burney Treaty between Siam and the East India Company, had recognised Siamese suzerainty over Kedah as well as Pattani but things went very badly for them and after dealing with armed Malay uprisings for 20 years the Siamese abandoned both Malay states. By the late 19th century the Siamese made a come back and with British support took over all the Northern Malay States: Pattani, Kedah, Trengannu, Kelantan and Perlis which were recognised as Siamese by the British in 1902. These states were not particularly important to British trade at the time and the British liked the idea of keeping Siam as an independent buffer against France, as long it maintained its trade and extraterritorial judicial rights with Siam. The only reason that the British took four of the Northern Malay states back under the Anglo-Siam treaty was that far from becoming an effective buffer zone, as they had hoped, armed insurrection against Siamese rule was creating a security threat to the British Empire because the Malays were threatening to bring in German military help to rid them of the hated Siamese colonists. Under the treaty Pattani, the northernmost state was left to the Siamese as a face saver. Armed insurrection against Siamese rule continues to this day.

So you can see that Siamese fear of loss of face was the original cause of the problem and still is today. However, an honest review of the history makes it absolutely clear to anyone who is not mentally retarded that imposing hated Siamese rule and culture has not worked for 100 years and will be still not working in another 100 years, if they don’t come up with a more thoughtful solution.

Edited January 1, 2013 by Arkady

[Arkady]

From the historical perspective it is also worth noting that the Siamese managed to get back the other four Northern Malay states for a short time with Japanese assistance. In 1943 the Japanese transferred Kedah, Trengannu, Kelantan and Perlis back to Siamese rule as a reward for Siamese assistance leading up to the invasion of British Malaya. While the Siamese administration was not very effective and Siamese officials transferred to the new provinces busies themselves mainly with corruption and private business and left most of the British bureaucratic structure intact, the Siamese occupation was, nonetheless, deeply unpopular with the Malay population. Keen to stamp its imprimatur on the annexed territories, Bangkok in the form of the Phibun government imposed some deliberately insensitive and pointless legislation. One such law imposed a surtax on all residents between the ages of 20 and 45 who could read and write the Siamese language. Another withdrew the recognition and registration of polygamous marriages by Muslims that had been permitted by the British who didn't interfere much with local laws and customs throughout the empire. Naturally the British ordered the Siamese to get back to their 1909 borders as soon as they returned at the end of the war and another unsuccessful attempt at Siamese colonisation of the Muslim Malay states mercifully came to an end. It is worth noting that the Siamese annexation was doubly unpopular with Malays because the removal of all the Northern Malay states effectively made Malays a minority to the more numerous Chinese in the rest of Malaya.