Australian Pensioner Wins The Right To Claim His Pension In Se Asia (Including Thailand)

[samran]

Ole samran and I rarely disagree ... but on this question we are at a difference.

This is a man who chooses to live a nomadic lifestyle but relies on the Australian government to fund this lifestyle ... through the disability pension.

He has a medical condition and 'suffers from schizophrenia', though, due to his nomadic movement, I doubt he is getting treated for it.

The fact of the matter that it would be cheaper to pay the pension and he stay overseas as opposed to reside in Australia could be true ... but it should not be the premise of the argument.

I believe in fairness for all ... as best it can be done.

Many people speak about it being the 'Government's money' ... well, just remember ... it's our money that we pay through taxes etc ... the government just redistributes it as it sees fit and in line with the ideologies of the political party in power.

So … how I see it … we are funding his nomadic lifestyle … and I disagree with that.

Surprised that the Mods haven’t moved this to the Pension Topic.

Sure.

My point simply revolves around point of payment, not eligibility. I just don't know enough about this last point to judge.

Edited January 2, 2013 by samran

[hansgruber]

In this case I disagree with the ruling - why should a nomad, who has never worked or spent most of his time in Oz be given a pension?

Never worked?

Article states he has been on the pension since 1984. Safe to say he doesn't have a strong work ethic nor a tax payer.

Or ... it's safe to say that he is sick, seeing that it is clearly stated in the article.

He could have been a tax payer for 20 years before that, and you have no idea what his work ethic is.

Do you know anything about schizophrenia?

Define sick.

I've seen people sit on compo and claim benefits for bad back and it has its fair share of scammers.

How do you know this isn't a drug induced schizophrenia? Could be a career junkie for all you know.

[jamescollister]

Interesting to see where this goes in the end, I like many took early retirement so to speak and set up shop in Thailand. Worked my whole life, yet am not entitled to an OAP, when or if I make 65. No longer a resident.

Seems the Gov just changes the rules and back date them, how can anyone plan for the future if they keep moving the goal posts. Jim

[whybother]

Unlikely.

Current age 62.

On DISABILITY pension since age 32

= 30 years on DISABILITY pension

That would mean he started working at age 12!

I, for one, would like to see more details of the case.

It seems utterly bizarre to me that this guy, with 30 years of schizophrenia, could survive around the world in a multitude of countries

62 in 2012. In 1984 he was 34. Ok, possibly working for 16 years.

More details would be good, since we don't know how severe his schizophrenia is. Sometimes it's enough that they can't hold down a job, but not enough that they need to be in hospital.

[whybother]

Define sick.

I've seen people sit on compo and claim benefits for bad back and it has its fair share of scammers.

How do you know this isn't a drug induced schizophrenia? Could be a career junkie for all you know.

He could be a millionaire too. It doesn't say anything about that in the article, but since we're making things up, why stop now.

[Bluetongue]

Did I read between the lines that he is Aboriginal, that would probably mean that he had legal assistance to fund his AAT appeal. From experience the Agency, presumably Centrelink (Jobs'R'Us or Dolestra) would have to have the decision overturned by the Federal Court, in turn the applicant could appeal to the Full Bench of the Federal Court. It would depend but Centrelink would rarely do that unless they stand to open Pandora's box. I dont think too many people would be doing what this guy is doing. I haven't followed the OAP debate so I cant comment on that.

Having said that I am amazed that with schizophrenia he has been able to retain his benefits all these years. He has had good advocacy I suspect. Schizophrenics typically relapse when they go off their meds, he probably goes back to OZ to top these up as he would get them for the subsidised prescription rate which is about 3 or 5 bucks. That way he probably looks pretty ordinary when he visits the Doc, having been off his meds for the time taken to get back.

[giddyup]

Did I read between the lines that he is Aboriginal, that would probably mean that he had legal assistance to fund his AAT appeal. From experience the Agency, presumably Centrelink (Jobs'R'Us or Dolestra) would have to have the decision overturned by the Federal Court, in turn the applicant could appeal to the Full Bench of the Federal Court. It would depend but Centrelink would rarely do that unless they stand to open Pandora's box. I dont think too many people would be doing what this guy is doing. I haven't followed the OAP debate so I cant comment on that.

Having said that I am amazed that with schizophrenia he has been able to retain his benefits all these years. He has had good advocacy I suspect. Schizophrenics typically relapse when they go off their meds, he probably goes back to OZ to top these up as he would get them for the subsidised prescription rate which is about 3 or 5 bucks. That way he probably looks pretty ordinary when he visits the Doc, having been off his meds for the time taken to get back.

Nowhere does it say he's Aboriginal, only that he camps sometimes on Aboriginal land. I don't know how much of a supply of meds he would be given at one time in Australia, and if he has to fly back every few months to "top up", I imagine this expense would severely eat into his DSP.

[rene123]

Considering the billions of dollars that all governments waste on personal interests, a few million to the few ner-do-wells won't break the budget. There will be scammers in every department no matter what anyone does. And, once a citizen has reached a pensionable age then who cares where he lives? The Australian government will be better off if their old folks are in some Asian country.

[giddyup]

Considering the billions of dollars that all governments waste on personal interests, a few million to the few ner-do-wells won't break the budget. There will be scammers in every department no matter what anyone does. And, once a citizen has reached a pensionable age then who cares where he lives? The Australian government will be better off if their old folks are in some Asian country.

There's a fresh boatload of welfare recipients arriving in Australia regularly, what's a few living overseas costing in the grand scheme of things? At least he's not burning down detention centres.

Edited January 2, 2013 by giddyup

[Tolley]

I think there is another million odd out of a workforce of 10 million on disability in Australia. What a joke. Time to end all the welfare state mentality that has developed a huge industry of bludgers in Australia.

Doubt this guy has schizophrenia and managed to survive without meds wandering around Asia for nearly thirty years. Crock of the proverbial....

Edited January 2, 2013 by Tolley

[weegee]

" The Australian government will be better off if their old folks are in some Asian country".

OF COURSE....and the OAP(in particular), lives out their life with a bit of dignity....Plus three square meals per day, which is difficult for some to afford in Aust.

Thailand probably would benefit in the long run.....HUB of Home Care????....Had to throw that in

[simple1]

Considering the billions of dollars that all governments waste on personal interests, a few million to the few ner-do-wells won't break the budget. There will be scammers in every department no matter what anyone does. And, once a citizen has reached a pensionable age then who cares where he lives? The Australian government will be better off if their old folks are in some Asian country.

There's a fresh boatload of welfare recipients arriving in Australia regularly, what's a few living overseas costing in the grand scheme of things? At least he's not burning down detention centres.

It took four hours from the OP posting for this post to rear it's head, amazing it took so long!

[BookMan]

Considering the billions of dollars that all governments waste on personal interests, a few million to the few ner-do-wells won't break the budget. There will be scammers in every department no matter what anyone does. And, once a citizen has reached a pensionable age then who cares where he lives? The Australian government will be better off if their old folks are in some Asian country.

There's a fresh boatload of welfare recipients arriving in Australia regularly, what's a few living overseas costing in the grand scheme of things? At least he's not burning down detention centres.

It took four hours from the OP posting for this post to rear it's head, amazing it took so long!

Let us hope it has also now passed

[manly100]

Individual Australians are net benefiters of taxation. They get back more than they put in. The difference is made up by company tax payments. To say or scream "look how they waste my tax dollars" is just putting your hand up and admitting little knowledge of how the tax system works. For an example, if you’re a family with 2 children and live to be 70 years of age you will have received more from the tax system then you have put in. That being said you can see why the tax system tries to reduce the amount you get back out of it. From the systems point of view every taxpayer is an expense and it wants to reduce its expenses. Australia is a lucky country in that it is able to support such a system. People who have the means to support themselves financially in retirement need to do so as this will enable the system to support those unable to financially support themselves. This will be a real issue as baby boomers move into retirement. And really if society won’t help those in need, wherever they may be, the term society becomes limited.

[samran]

Considering the billions of dollars that all governments waste on personal interests, a few million to the few ner-do-wells won't break the budget. There will be scammers in every department no matter what anyone does. And, once a citizen has reached a pensionable age then who cares where he lives? The Australian government will be better off if their old folks are in some Asian country.

There's a fresh boatload of welfare recipients arriving in Australia regularly, what's a few living overseas costing in the grand scheme of things? At least he's not burning down detention centres.

It took four hours from the OP posting for this post to rear it's head, amazing it took so long!

Actually took him four hours to type that sentence.

[BEVUP]

Individual Australians are net benefiters of taxation. They get back more than they put in. The difference is made up by company tax payments. To say or scream "look how they waste my tax dollars" is just putting your hand up and admitting little knowledge of how the tax system works. For an example, if you’re a family with 2 children and live to be 70 years of age you will have received more from the tax system then you have put in. That being said you can see why the tax system tries to reduce the amount you get back out of it. From the systems point of view every taxpayer is an expense and it wants to reduce its expenses. Australia is a lucky country in that it is able to support such a system. People who have the means to support themselves financially in retirement need to do so as this will enable the system to support those unable to financially support themselves. This will be a real issue as baby boomers move into retirement. And really if society won’t help those in need, wherever they may be, the term society becomes limited.

Getting a bit of topic but were not talking about families living in Auss

& as an so called individual ( thats myself & only myself ) who works in Auss & lives here I certainly pay more than i chew

Try this one

Cant claim jack at tax time

Pay 40,000 + for a return of 3000

Taxed accordingly to scale BUT am forced to pay a futune to have government hospital cover ( Give me the money back & i will take out my own top notch cover)

GST comes in to no tax eleviation effect

THEN we shall try & get back on topic & we shall all raise our finger to the Auss Gov to the day we can tick the appropiate box & get that flying pig to deliver our benefits we so rightly worked & paid for all our lifes

[FDog]

Whether the guy deserves the pension is not relevent to the topic. He would be getting it if he was in oz. He has obviously jumped through the hoops the govt makes him do to get the pension. If they have a problem with him receiving it then that is another matter.

I for one, as a taxpayer in oz have no problem with someone who is entitled to get the pension living overseas so they can afford a few luxuries. It would be a very very tough existence to be on the pension in oz with the cost of living so high.

I'm happy the Tribunal saw the stupidity in the govt's policy.

Now, if only they could get that stupid 2 year residence prior to getting the OAP overturned.

Edited January 2, 2013 by FDog

[giddyup]

Considering the billions of dollars that all governments waste on personal interests, a few million to the few ner-do-wells won't break the budget. There will be scammers in every department no matter what anyone does. And, once a citizen has reached a pensionable age then who cares where he lives? The Australian government will be better off if their old folks are in some Asian country.

There's a fresh boatload of welfare recipients arriving in Australia regularly, what's a few living overseas costing in the grand scheme of things? At least he's not burning down detention centres.

It took four hours from the OP posting for this post to rear it's head, amazing it took so long!

Actually took him four hours to type that sentence.

What wit! Oscar Wilde eat your heart out.

[krisb]

Sorry Samran. I must have strolled into the oxford scholar forum.

Please understand that I'm truly humbled that someone of your intellectual capacity would even reply to one of my posts.

Thank you.

Not sure why someone with a powerful mind like you would even frequent the thaivisa general forum.

So are you saying those of us on Thai visa general forum arent to bright?

[nong38]

Good for him. I've never really understood why pensioners need to be penalised for living OS.

Need a fixed residential address in Australia to claim the pension.

This will set precedent for old sex pests who dont need to maintain an address back which in turn gives them more income to spend here.

It might also set precedent to normal pensioners who wish to live here. Sex pests will come whether they get their pension or not but most of them are located in the same hole a couple of hours east of Bangkok.

Where can that be I wonder?

[nong38]

Individual Australians are net benefiters of taxation. They get back more than they put in. The difference is made up by company tax payments. To say or scream "look how they waste my tax dollars" is just putting your hand up and admitting little knowledge of how the tax system works. For an example, if you’re a family with 2 children and live to be 70 years of age you will have received more from the tax system then you have put in. That being said you can see why the tax system tries to reduce the amount you get back out of it. From the systems point of view every taxpayer is an expense and it wants to reduce its expenses. Australia is a lucky country in that it is able to support such a system. People who have the means to support themselves financially in retirement need to do so as this will enable the system to support those unable to financially support themselves. This will be a real issue as baby boomers move into retirement. And really if society won’t help those in need, wherever they may be, the term society becomes limited.

Getting a bit of topic but were not talking about families living in Auss

& as an so called individual ( thats myself & only myself ) who works in Auss & lives here I certainly pay more than i chew

Try this one

Cant claim jack at tax time

Pay 40,000 + for a return of 3000

Taxed accordingly to scale BUT am forced to pay a futune to have government hospital cover ( Give me the money back & i will take out my own top notch cover)

GST comes in to no tax eleviation effect

THEN we shall try & get back on topic & we shall all raise our finger to the Auss Gov to the day we can tick the appropiate box & get that flying pig to deliver our benefits we so rightly worked & paid for all our lifes

I am very happy at the decision, but, governments want your money and dont want to give it back to you or I they want to give it to someone else and anyway they can think of not give you what you thought you were entitled to they will find it. Every budget time is a golden opportunity to move the goalposts yet again.

I am very pleased that someone has stopped a government with stupid rules in their tracks. You are probably aware that the HMGovt of the UK freeze your annual inflation increases if you come out here. I am not sure if that helps UK pensioners case or not, best not hold your breath and watch the goalposts.

Edited January 2, 2013 by nong38

[krisb]

Ole samran and I rarely disagree (post #2) ... but on this question we are at a difference.

This is a man who chooses to live a nomadic lifestyle but relies on the Australian government to fund this lifestyle ... through the disability pension.

He has a medical condition and 'suffers from schizophrenia', though, due to his nomadic movement, I doubt he is getting treated for it.

The fact of the matter that it would be cheaper to pay the pension and he stay overseas as opposed to reside in Australia could be true ... but it should not be the premise of the argument.

I believe in fairness for all ... as best it can be done.

Many people speak about it being the 'Government's money' ... well, just remember ... it's our money that we pay through taxes etc ... the government just redistributes it as it sees fit and in line with the ideologies of the political party in power.

So … how I see it … we are funding his nomadic lifestyle … and I disagree with that.

Surprised that the Mods haven’t moved this to the Pension Topic.

EDIT:- samran and I posted at the same time and I don't wish to have my post seen as to refute what he wrote above me ...

This raises the question David, now firstly let me say, god forbid it even was needed, but if you were in need of a disability pension, or for that matter any form of pension, therefore ending your working career, shouldnt you be able to live overseas? especially if your wife was from overseas, and lets say perhaps she wanted to take care of her family perhaps elderly parents.

Would you consider this a valid reason to live overseas, and claim the pension?

Would a war veteran have earned the right to live overseas and claim a pension?

The issue I have with the chap in the op is he is probably going untreated for his mental illness in Thailand. That is a worry.

[jbrain]

Good for him. I've never really understood why pensioners need to be penalised for living OS.

That's a valid point, since my understanding is that one earned his pension during his working life.

Next they gonna dictate what you are allowed to buy with your pension.

I'm glad I made the decision more than 30 years ago that it was better to put the payments in my pocket personal pension fund instead of giving to a greedy governement in the hope I will receive a pension once..

I retired at 32 without the need of any alms from my government

[whybother]

Good for him. I've never really understood why pensioners need to be penalised for living OS.

That's a valid point, since my understanding is that one earned his pension during his working life.

Next they gonna dictate what you are allowed to buy with your pension.

I'm glad I made the decision more than 30 years ago that it was better to put the payments in my pocket personal pension fund instead of giving to a greedy governement in the hope I will receive a pension once..

I retired at 32 without the need of any alms from my government

He didn't actually "earn" this pension. It's a Disability pension, not an Old Age pension.

[Phronesis]

Hmmm...I would speculate he has some Aboriginality and used the Aboriginal Legal Aid service to run his claim (at the tax payers expense) in the AAT.

Please post if anyone has evidence to the contrary.

If you are white and have worked and paid taxes in Australia all of your life, don't get your hopes up.

This precedent doesn't apply to you.

[Rancid]

Well boys and girls let's think this through, we have a government that spends billions on pink bats, school halls, NBN and the list goes on. The government wastes it left, right and centre and thats without all the ex-pollie consultants and other freeloaders in for their cut. Old Kerry didn't like to pay tax and dodged it pretty well, no doubt Junior learned a thing or two.

The whole system is a game of steal what you can whenever you can. Old Hans Gruber probably pays tax which is why he is p*ssed off, wake up mein Kolonel everyone is scamming the Treasury wherever they can. So one old geezer gets a free pass on a rough as guts Phippine sex tour, who cares? Join the game and get a share of the spoils or take the high ground and whine with no one listening, yeah, it has pretty much come to that.

[ripstanley]

The attached link will give you more detail. It is the AAT decision. http://www.austlii.edu.au/au/cases/cth/aat/2012/924.html

[Mario2008]

The judgement is good news for the man it concerns, but a very exceptional case. It does not mean that now anyone can claim a pension living outside of Oz.

Important factor is that the person doesn't have a place to call home, even while living abroad, while at the same time there is a link with Australia and as a result of that link it is determined that he (mainly) lives in Australia.

The decision would have been different if he had a place to call home in another country, but the man in questions travels around from country to country (including Australia where he hopes to be able to setlle eventually).

[barrybankruad]

The guy is getting a disability pension, not OAP as he's 62. Under current rules, once he's 65 the disability pension rolls over to a OAP, so long as he is resident in Australia at that time & would then be able to receive the OAP whilst living overseas full time.

He is on A DISABILITY pension, the rules for living overseas on such have been recently tightened up, requiring such pensioner to reside a certain amount of time in Australia every year to qualify. In addition to qualify for the aged pension he would be requited to have lived in Aus for at least two years before he reached 65 the year the old age pension kicks in. He may have medical problems but so do thousands of others. This case could open the door to many who don't want to abide by the rules like myself and many other Aussies that i known the same circumstances.

[BookMan]

Hmmm...I would speculate he has some Aboriginality and used the Aboriginal Legal Aid service to run his claim (at the tax payers expense) in the AAT.

Please post if anyone has evidence to the contrary.

If you are white and have worked and paid taxes in Australia all of your life, don't get your hopes up.

This precedent doesn't apply to you.

Pure speculation at this point.

More details are required.