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[davejones]

I need a certified copy of my UK passport so that I can apply of an ITIN number in the US, using form W7. Does anyone know where I can get this done? I phone the British Embassy in Bangkok but keep getting voicemail.

Also, will the US IRS service accept a copy certified by British Embassy.

Some things are a nightmare when you're British but living in Thailand. Many things just can't be done here.

Also, does anyone know if I can reclaim US withholding tax on my UK tax return?

[BlackPuddingBertha]

You dont need to have it certified by the British consulate (who would charge an arm and a leg for doing it). They should accept certification by any Thai lawyer, some of which also have "notary" signs up outside their offices. They may also accept certification by professional people such as bank staff, doctors, policemen etc. though you cant count on any or all of these unless you have seen it in writing (your W7 form should indicate what sort of certification is acceptable: mine did). A US warden (there are one or two in Pattaya) may also know what is and isnt acceptable and they may even be able to certify it themselves if they happen to be US notaries. Another option would be to have it certified by the US consulate and they actually come to Pattaya every few months.

The US and UK have a dual-taxation treaty and you can deduct tax paid in one from tax due in the other.

[davejones]

You dont need to have it certified by the British consulate (who would charge an arm and a leg for doing it). They should accept certification by any Thai lawyer, some of which also have "notary" signs up outside their offices. They may also accept certification by professional people such as bank staff, doctors, policemen etc. though you cant count on any or all of these unless you have seen it in writing (your W7 form should indicate what sort of certification is acceptable: mine did). A US warden (there are one or two in Pattaya) may also know what is and isnt acceptable and they may even be able to certify it themselves if they happen to be US notaries. Another option would be to have it certified by the US consulate and they actually come to Pattaya every few months.

The US and UK have a dual-taxation treaty and you can deduct tax paid in one from tax due in the other.

According to the notes that accompany the form, the passport needs to be certified by the authority that issued it, so that sounds like it can only be notified by a UK authority. Thailand isn't part of the notary convention, so using a notary here is no good. Also, the US Embassy in Bangkok only deal with US citizens. I've read other posts on here that say they used to certify passports for non-US citizens but no longer do.

I'm in Bangkok, not Pattaya. From comments I've read, the US IRS are very tough and want everything perfect or they'll reject the application.

I'm not even sure if I can claim the tax back in the UK because I'm non-resident for tax purposes. I don't pay tax there. I don't pay tax here either.

I will double check with US Embassy, just in case, but I doubt they'll do it.

The US is hugely bureaucratic. All I need is an ITIN. They make it almost impossible to get for people like me.

I'm also wondering if I can claim the tax back in the US if I eventually get the ITIN.

[BlackPuddingBertha]

If you dont pay tax in the UK then you cant get credit there for tax paid in the US. You would never be able to claim back US tax from HMRC anyway, under any circumstances. You could try claiming it back in the US, though in theory once you have done the W7 you shouldnt pay as much in the first place.

When I did my W7 I had the passport copy certified by my bank for free and this was accepted. Maybe the rules have changed since then. I have had documents notarised by a notary/lawyer here and these have been widely accepted, even if Thailand isnt part of any convention.

Subsequently I got so p*ssed off with the US and its stupid rules that I ditched all my US stocks anyway, just to be free of their mindless nonsense. Beats me how US citizens can put up with all that invasive crap. I wouldn't.

For some reason I thought you were in Pattaya. Sorry about that.

Edited January 11, 2013 by BlackPuddingBertha

[davejones]

If you dont pay tax in the UK then you cant get credit there for tax paid in the US. You would never be able to claim back US tax from HMRC anyway, under any circumstances. You could try claiming it back in the US, though in theory once you have done the W7 you shouldnt pay as much in the first place.

When I did my W7 I had the passport copy certified by my bank for free and this was accepted. Maybe the rules have changed since then. I have had documents notarised by a notary/lawyer here and these have been widely accepted, even if Thailand isnt part of any convention.

Subsequently I got so p*ssed off with the US and its stupid rules that I ditched all my US stocks anyway, just to be free of their mindless nonsense. Beats me how US citizens can put up with all that invasive crap. I wouldn't.

For some reason I thought you were in Pattaya. Sorry about that.

I know what you mean about the rules in the US. But I sell books on Kindle, so I don't have any choice but to sort this out. If they don't Amazon will take 30% withholding tax from me, which I'll probably never see again. I'll give the IRS helpline a call and see what they say.

Why do you say I can't claim US tax back under any circumstances. I've been able to claim tax back that I paid in other countries outside the UK. But that was when I was in the UK and paying tax.

[Lefty]

Certification by UK embassy is only option unless you want to send original passport-555 .You can complete form 1040 for refund of US taxes but will not process refund until you have ITIN.My wife is going through this to claim taxes withheld. Unless the amount due you is subastancial I would not endure the BS and pain in getting an ITIN.

Lefty

[BlackPuddingBertha]

Why do you say I can't claim US tax back under any circumstances. I've been able to claim tax back that I paid in other countries outside the UK. But that was when I was in the UK and paying tax.

You weren't claiming the US tax back in the UK, you were getting UK tax credit for tax paid elsewhere. It's not the same thing.

[davejones]

Certification by UK embassy is only option unless you want to send original passport-555 .You can complete form 1040 for refund of US taxes but will not process refund until you have ITIN.My wife is going through this to claim taxes withheld. Unless the amount due you is subastancial I would not endure the BS and pain in getting an ITIN.

Lefty

Ok, I'll phone the IRS helpline to double check and then phone the British Embassy again to see if they can actually do this here in Bangkok. Yes, it is well worth my while to get an ITIN, because I will be making money for many years to come.

[davejones]

Why do you say I can't claim US tax back under any circumstances. I've been able to claim tax back that I paid in other countries outside the UK. But that was when I was in the UK and paying tax.

You weren't claiming the US tax back in the UK, you were getting UK tax credit for tax paid elsewhere. It's not the same thing.

Yes, that's right. But it had the same effect. But if I don't pay tax any longer, then there's nothing to credit the tax against.

[Pib]

Don't confuse getting something notarized with certification/certified copy. Certification/certified copy can usually only be provided by the agency issuing the original document.

I recently renewed my U.S. drivers license by mail and went through this where you had to mail in a certified copy or the original document to prove identity....a normal copy even if having an embassy notarized it as a true copy did not hack it....it had to be either a certified copy or the original. And getting a certified copy from the issuing agency is nearly as hard and expensive as getting the original document. I ended up mailing in my passport...it came back OK just as the state drivers license section said it would along with a renewed license.

Edited January 11, 2013 by Pib

[davejones]

I spoke to the IRS helpdesk and they said that my being in Thailand was going to be a problem with getting my passport certified. He said the UK refuse to certify any documents, because if you have the document (e.g. passport) they can't see any point in certifying it. So the IRS have an agreement with the US Consulate in the UK so that UK citizens can get their passports certified there. But he doesn't think any other US consulate will do it, because the US consulate in the UK is a special case. He also doesn't think the UK Embassy here will do it, because they refuse to do it in the UK. The other option is to get it notarized, but it has to be by a notary that's a member of the Hague Convention (or from a country that's a member?). But Thailand isn't a member, so can't use a notary here. So basically I seem to be at a dead end unless I go to a notary in another country.

But I'll check with UK and US consulates here next week just in case. Other than that, it looks like I'll have to get it done in another country.

Thailand is not a good place for sorting out these legal issues.

[davejones]

Don't confuse getting something notarized with certification/certified copy. Certification/certified copy can usually only be provided by the agency issuing the original document.

From what the IRS guy said, it seems they will accept either for the W-7 ITIN application. But the application form does say certified.But as mentioned above it's not possible to get a UK passport certified in the UK by the issue authority. So the form is not entirely accurate.

[BlackPuddingBertha]

Don't confuse getting something notarized with certification/certified copy. Certification/certified copy can usually only be provided by the agency issuing the original document.

This seems to be specific to the US and US agencies.

Agencies/organisations in EU countries generally just want copies that have been certified as being accurate by some sort of professional (lawyer, bank official, police etc etc), and EU agencies are not specifically prepared to certify copies of their own documents, nor would they immediately understand why anyone would need to do this as within the EU it would not be required.

[Lefty]

Posted Yesterday, 22:42

I spoke to the IRS helpdesk and they said that my being in Thailand was going to be a problem with getting my passport certified. He said the UK refuse to certify any documents, because if you have the document (e.g. passport) they can't see any point in certifying it. So the IRS have an agreement with the US Consulate in the UK so that UK citizens can get their passports certified there. But he doesn't think any other US consulate will do it, because the US consulate in the UK is a special case. He also doesn't think the UK Embassy here will do it, because they refuse to do it in the UK. The other option is to get it notarized, but it has to be by a notary that's a member of the Hague Convention (or from a country that's a member?). But Thailand isn't a member, so can't use a notary here. So basically I seem to be at a dead end unless I go to a notary in another country.-------------------------------------------------------------

Is getting the ITIN important enough to submit your original passport, my wife did this with her Thai passport. It was returned in about 3 months so no traveling during that time.

Lefty

[Lefty]

Posted Yesterday, 22:42

I spoke to the IRS helpdesk and they said that my being in Thailand was going to be a problem with getting my passport certified. He said the UK refuse to certify any documents, because if you have the document (e.g. passport) they can't see any point in certifying it. So the IRS have an agreement with the US Consulate in the UK so that UK citizens can get their passports certified there. But he doesn't think any other US consulate will do it, because the US consulate in the UK is a special case. He also doesn't think the UK Embassy here will do it, because they refuse to do it in the UK. The other option is to get it notarized, but it has to be by a notary that's a member of the Hague Convention (or from a country that's a member?). But Thailand isn't a member, so can't use a notary here. So basically I seem to be at a dead end unless I go to a notary in another country.-------------------------------------------------------------

Is getting the ITIN important enough to submit your original passport, my wife did this with her Thai passport. It was returned in about 3 months so no traveling during that time.

Lefty

[davejones]

Is getting the ITIN important enough to submit your original passport, my wife did this with her Thai passport. It was returned in about 3 months so no traveling during that time.

Lefty

I have to get an LTIN, but it's not a question of whether it's important enough to post my passport. If I need to I'll fly to another country to get my passport notarized. I travel a lot and can't be without my passport. Also I need it for bank, visa renewals and other things. Why is the USA so bureaucratic? I thought it was supposed to be the land of the free. Stupid rules.

[Pib]

Don't confuse getting something notarized with certification/certified copy. Certification/certified copy can usually only be provided by the agency issuing the original document.

This seems to be specific to the US and US agencies.

Agencies/organisations in EU countries generally just want copies that have been certified as being accurate by some sort of professional (lawyer, bank official, police etc etc), and EU agencies are not specifically prepared to certify copies of their own documents, nor would they immediately understand why anyone would need to do this as within the EU it would not be required.

It may be specific to the U.S...and since the OP was trying to get a U.S. ITIN that's why I focused on the distinction. Since the 9/11 event new U.S. laws were implemented over the ensuring years to make it harder to get/renew key identification documents like ITINs, drivers license, etc...especially when you need to do it by mail. Actually were I said in my post #10 that "I" renewed by U.S. state drivers license and ended up mailing in original documents, it was actually my wife (dual citizen...Thai and U.S.) renewing her U.S. drivers license and this new requirement for either a certified copy or original document came into effect in this particular state in early 2010 in response to a federal law requirement....and I think all U.S. states had to implement the same requirement. When I renewed my U.S. state drivers license in late 2009 by mail I did not have to mail in any certified or original documents....un-notarized copies were accepted. Yeap, all driven by U.S. federal law changes that is tightening up on documentation requirements to prove identity....they now want to see certified copies or the original in many cases.

Not a big deal if a person can actually go to the office issuing the document a person is applying for, like an ITIN, and carry the original docs. But if unable to visit the office and having to mail the original docs it sure can make a person feel uneasy...hoping and praying the original docs like a passport don't get lost in the mail system....then the person has to spend more money and time to get the original docs replaced...and maybe even reapply for the doc was trying to get in the first place. A person definitely wants to mail these key docs with tracking & receipt of signature....that's what I did...but then the state issuing the drivers license and returning the passport put them in regular mail with no tracking/signature requirement (cheaper and less hassle for them I guess with little concern for importance of the original docs to the customer...typical govt agency)...but at least they used a sturdy envelope.

[davejones]

All sorted. The UK Embassy in Bangkok can certify UK passports for 1,500 baht. See http://ukinthailand.fco.gov.uk/en/help-for-british-nationals/living-in-thailand/notarial-services/making-verifying-photo-copy/. I just phoned them and they said I can come in the morning and pick up in the afternoon. So that means I can get my ITIN and all will be well with the world.

[Pib]

All sorted. The UK Embassy in Bangkok can certify UK passports for 1,500 baht. See http://ukinthailand....ng-photo-copy/. I just phoned them and they said I can come in the morning and pick up in the afternoon. So that means I can get my ITIN and all will be well with the world.

Cool...since a embassy is basically part of the govt department that issues passports it makes sense they should be able to provide certify a passport. Glad the UK does this. But I don't think the U.S. embassy will certify a U.S. passport....from looking at the U.S. Embassy Bangkok web site it appears you have to mail it off to the U.S. State Dept and they will do it for $7.

[davejones]

All sorted. The UK Embassy in Bangkok can certify UK passports for 1,500 baht. See http://ukinthailand....ng-photo-copy/. I just phoned them and they said I can come in the morning and pick up in the afternoon. So that means I can get my ITIN and all will be well with the world.

Cool...since a embassy is basically part of the govt department that issues passports it makes sense they should be able to provide certify a passport. Glad the UK does this. But I don't think the U.S. embassy will certify a U.S. passport....from looking at the U.S. Embassy Bangkok web site it appears you have to mail it off to the U.S. State Dept and they will do it for $7.

And I juts got a reply from the US Embassy saying that they will certify a foreign passport if it's for a W-7 ITIN application. $50. It's a shame they won't do it for US passports though. But try emailing them as you will get a definitive answer.