Smoke, Smog, Dust 2013 Chiang Mai

[CobraSnakeNecktie]

Probably haphazard watering of the sensors.

The Thai Facebook comments are pretty cynical.

Would be hard to do on the Yupparav site in the city.

Interesting though that there is a competitor to accuracy with this new hospital.

It certainly isn't farfetched but probably too many calories for a govt bureaucrat to burn.

[debcmai]

all i know is i took a walk through the city streets today around 5 pm...and the air...literally stunk......as if all the dust particles in the air were holding onto smells of garbage, fish, etc, sewage..well. you get it. it was awful I could not wait to get back indoors!

[jonwilly]

Normally during the Bad Atmosphere months I go away, Cha Am several times.

This year for various reasons I could not get away.

So I do my running around before 10.00 then lock myself in with air con on.

john

[WinnieTheKhwai]

When it's all done in a week or so I'll tot up the numbers for the season. It looks like a fairly good year subjectively (based on how late in the season things got underway), but I haven't done the math yet.

Winnie, you really take the prize for being in permanent denial. This isn't a fairly good year. It is another year with long periods of hazardous air pollution that keeps taking a toll on people's health.

What.. I'm the one who left for the season, remember?

This also allows me a healthy (yes :-) ) and objective perspective on things. Feel free to keep the blinders on, keep running around yelling omg! omg! without reading what I actually said and just ignore any longer term perspectives.

I do realize that's common human psychology: when your house is on fire, few people have the ability to reflect on how fewer homes are lost these days compared to x years ago. If this is you, then just skip the debate on how things may be changing over time and stick to the 'Here & Now' posts, on which I've made a few contributions that you may have missed, such as on air filters, where to get the 3M stuff, when to plan a March holiday and so on.

No need to respond, I'm fine having this discussion a little later.

For anyone who _is_ interested however, do know that I'm not in denial or talking out of my back side; note how in English, saying 'the season started late this year' is not the same as 'there is no problem'.

Anyway, please ignore:

(10-year averages in brackets, after the current number)

12-month average PM10: 39.0 µg/m3 (45.0)

'Very Bad days' so far in 2013: 7 (17)

(And yes, what 'very bad day' means is worthy of discussion, so pick any level you're (un)comfortable with and compare. Whichever definition of 'Bad Day' you chose, we've had fewer of them this year compared to the 10 year average. For reference, mostly in Thailand 120 µg/m3 Daily Average is used. That's a bit higher than I'm personally comfortable with for my kids, but it is the locally defined limit, and given that we're in Asia it's also a reasonable level for comparisons over time. But again, feel free to pick any other number between 50 and 150 or so, as long as you apply that yardstick consistently for longer term comparisons.

Edited March 27, 2013 by WinnieTheKhwai

[T_Dog]

WTK... Good discussion and good points. Looking at data is not the complete story however, as the pollution density varies highly by location. Pai has had it bad this year, and we always notice an improvement coming into Chiang Mai. The data might support calling it a fairly good year right in Chiang Mai, but I would call it a fairly bad or one of the worst years in seven I have experienced. This is the first year that I have had to stop all biking due to the coughing fits the exercise caused last week. All subjective of course, and as Lord Kelvin once said...."If you can't express the worth of your work in numbers, it is of a meager and unworthy kind."

[WinnieTheKhwai]

Possible of course. I think Pai needs it's own measuring station actually, especially given it's a big tourist destination for Thais and foreigners alike, and is in its own valley where specific conditions may occur. More measuring stations are established these days, with data now also available for example for Phrae, Nan and Phayao, as well as more locations in the Lampang area. Mae Hong Son (city) and Chiang Rai already had stations of course, and so far values there haven't been particularly high, *relatively speaking* compared to other years which showed completely insane values that I can't even imagine what that would look like.

Meanwhile I'm in Bangkok right now, and I was surprised to see that the overal AQI Air Quality Index for the spot I am right now (downtown near the Skytrain) is actrually worse than Chiang Mai right now. People here seem to just take that as a fact of life. (Though currently the bad AQI score is mostly due to Ozone, not PM10. I just looked it up and it appears high Ozone can cause some of the same effects in children and the elderly, and recommendations are pretty similar to Chiang Mai, to avoid outdoor exercise, etc.) Note: Of course I'm not saying that this somehow should make someone feel better about Chiang Mai, but it is relevant when picking a spot outside of the North to spend time in during the haze season; Bangkok isn't it.)

Edited March 28, 2013 by WinnieTheKhwai

[puck2]

WinnieTheKwai

.....I do realize that's common human psychology: when your house is on fire, few people have the ability to reflect on how fewer homes are lost these days compared to x years ago. If this is you, then just skip the debate on how things may be changing over time and stick to the 'Here & Now' posts, on which I've made a few contributions that you may have missed, such as on air filters, where to get the 3M stuff, when to plan a March holiday and so on. ....

Your logic and "psychology" remember me a certain Mr. Chalerm or Mr. Plodrasop.

Stay 1½ months in your home with your airfilters, don't leave your home. Buy your stock of Chang-Beer in advance, miss your weekly bar evening.

What.. I'm the one who left for the season, remember?

Go to Hua Hin or Cha Am avoiding the smoke, smog, dust in CM (=problem). Yes, everybody should/can do it ;-( running off like the
highly respected Blueberry Lady

This also allows me a healthy (yes :-) ) and objective perspective on things. Feel free to keep the blinders on, keep running around yelling omg! omg! without reading what I actually said and just ignore any longer term perspectives.

To have the distansce to CM and hereby the "objective perspective" why don't you go to Mae Hong Son (Province). Maybe your perspective will be more objective, if you can look through (the Latin word for perspective 5555)?

Go on believing in the Thai statistics.
Do you remember my joke about the statistics? Do you remember my scepticism concerning Thai statistics? Manipulation was my unprouven suspicion. And now my suspicion is substantiated here ->

Edited March 28, 2013 by puck2

[CobraSnakeNecktie]

The problem I have with them effectively lowering the numbers thru manipulation is that it presumes a level of competence and motivation to do that effectively.

The govt also has a motive to fine burners and rake in bribes etc but they don't even do that.

To systematically lower the numbers where is the money and motivation?

It might be here and there done in a shortsighted "improve the numbers" motive but this is giving them way too much credit to think they are doing this at many stations over an extended period of time.

Edited March 28, 2013 by CobraSnakeNecktie

[Tywais]

WinnieTheKwai

.....I do realize that's common human psychology: when your house is on fire, few people have the ability to reflect on how fewer homes are lost these days compared to x years ago. If this is you, then just skip the debate on how things may be changing over time and stick to the 'Here & Now' posts, on which I've made a few contributions that you may have missed, such as on air filters, where to get the 3M stuff, when to plan a March holiday and so on. ....

Your logic and "psychology" remember me a certain Mr. Chalerm or Mr. Plodrasop.

Stay 1½ months in your home with your airfilters, don't leave your home. Buy your stock of Chang-Beer in advance, miss your weekly bar evening.

>

What.. I'm the one who left for the season, remember?

Go to Hua Hin or Cha Am avoiding the smoke, smog, dust in CM (=problem). Yes, everybody should/can do it ;-( running off like the

highly respected Blueberry Lady

This also allows me a healthy (yes :-) ) and objective perspective on things. Feel free to keep the blinders on, keep running around yelling omg! omg! without reading what I actually said and just ignore any longer term perspectives.

To have the distansce to CM and hereby the "objective perspective" why don't you go to Mae Hong Son (Province). Maybe your perspective will be more objective, if you can look through (the Latin word for perspective 5555)?

Go on believing in the Thai statistics.

Do you remember my joke about the statistics? Do you remember my scepticism concerning Thai statistics? Manipulation was my unprouven suspicion. And now my suspicion is substantiated here ->

The guy spraying looks like he is shirtless and wearing a sarong. Maybe a farmer who is disgruntled with the govt. reports and wants to keep them off his back?

[WinnieTheKhwai]

Those things need cleaning too.

Seriously, they measure continuously, you think all 70+ measuring stations in Thailand have guys spraying them 24/7? And still (accurately) reporting very high levels? Get a grip. Or a foil hat.

[CobraSnakeNecktie]

Those things need cleaning too.

Seriously, they measure continuously, you think all 70+ measuring stations in Thailand have guys spraying them 24/7? And still (accurately) reporting very high levels? Get a grip. Or a foil hat.

well it wouldn't have to be 24/7 to affect the avg numbers. Just a couple of good soakings would really depress the numbers. Go hang around the moat when the fountains are going and it really is fresher air.

The theory could be tested by corroborating interday data with wind measurement(If that info even exists).

The high tower part of those setups is more about wind measurements. The little canister things on the roof are type that measure PM10. The canister has side openings that let the particles travel inside and be measured.

If sites saw deep decreases in PM10 without corresponding wind movement then the case could be made.

I just think this is way beyond govt's skill level.

[puck2]

The guy spraying looks like he is shirtless and wearing a sarong. Maybe a farmer who is disgruntled with the govt. reports and wants to keep
them off his back?

No Tywais, from Myanmar ..... he eliminates the Myanmar smoke

[puck2]

Those things need cleaning too.

Seriously, they measure continuously, you think all 70+ measuring stations in Thailand have guys spraying them 24/7? And still (accurately) reporting very high levels? Get a grip. Or a foil hat.

And how many of these stations are in the CM/Northern area? Many? No, a few. We are not talking about all stations in Thailand.

Now you get the answer to the question why they don't have measuring stations in the districts of Pai, Pang Mapha, Mae Hong Son, Khun Yuam etc. . Maybe the results are a little bit to high ... for their propaganda .

Maybe you are inhaling the statistical particels, I have to breathe the real ones!

Missing stations in the most smoky areas are already a manipulation. ("get a grip")

Edited March 28, 2013 by puck2

[chiang mai]

Those things need cleaning too.

Seriously, they measure continuously, you think all 70+ measuring stations in Thailand have guys spraying them 24/7? And still (accurately) reporting very high levels? Get a grip. Or a foil hat.

And how many of these stations are in the CM/Northern area? Many?

Three in CM.

[WinnieTheKhwai]

And how many of these stations are in the CM/Northern area? Many? No, a few. We are not talking about all stations in Thailand.

Now you get the answer to the question why they don't have measuring stations in the districts of Pai, Pang Mapha, Mae Hong Son, Khun Yuam etc. . Maybe the results are a little bit to high ... for their propaganda .

Maybe you are inhaling the statistical particels, I have to breathe the real ones!

Missing stations in the most smoky areas are already a manipulation. ("get a grip")

What?! (Again.. ) This is so surprising.. There IS a station in Mae Hong Son and it shows *absolutely horrendous* numbers every March! Same for Mae Sai in Chiang Rai. Of course, this year is also 'less bad' than the average for Mae Hong Son, but it's still a total no-go area in my book this time of year.

These sites are run by the PCD (Pollution Control Department) and they have no interest in making their job seem unnecessary. If anything they have an interest in showing problem areas, which is presumably why there is budget to significantly increase the number of measuring stations AND to implement the new 'real time' system providing up to the hour information.

The list of stations is readily available on a site that has been mentioned in this discussion numerous times. It's here: http://aqmthai.servehttp.com/ If you click on a station you will see it's location on a map and current values. The Report tab is where you can see readings over time for any station. There are in fact 13 stations in the North. Yes, Pai would be great to include, but also from these stations the picture is quite clear about what happens every March. And that so far it's a little better this year than average but mentioning this seems similar to the person a couple months ago who wasn't interested in seeing a list of temperatures to debate if it was cold or not, but preferred opinions. Yes, when you're in the middle of a snow storm it seems pretty #$&*# cold and that person would be right. But deciding if an entire season is above or below average is already a challenge for many, and then debating longer term multi-year changes is completely beyond almost everyone.

Anyway, stations in the North:

Also they built iPhone and Android apps to help people track the most common pollution sources. It's actually quite magnificent, there aren't many places in the world that show this level of detail, in real time. (I know, I looked for current data in Western countries). Of course that stands to reason, as PM10 pollution is much less of an acute issue in those countries, but it's still excellent to have this much information available.

Because otherwise there'd be no way to track if it gets better or worse, other than through people staring out a window and personal anecdotes. Imagine trying to debate the issue then. (Oh, wait.. )

The problem, of course, is in fighting the root cause; but I'm quite pleased with the information, and even more pleased that more people are speaking out and finding it unacceptable. The challenges in the fighting the root cause we've debated at length. But please don't belittle the PCD, they're great in getting the message out.

Edited March 28, 2013 by WinnieTheKhwai

[CobraSnakeNecktie]

it's a good question about PCD motives.

Does the PCD want high or low numbers?

I guess they do want to justify their need and budget but also are they supposed to be controlling pollution and making the bosses and elected officials look good? Probably some of both motives with some administrative variations.

I am excited to see the hospital publishing their data also.

How long until these sensors come down in price so a nerd type can hook their own up to a computer and see what is happening at their residence?

If we have learned anything from the Fukushima nuclear disaster is that Asian cultures have been trained to not ask hard questions or criticize the authorities and that has a lot of potential consequences in the crowded modern world.

It's refreshing to see the 108 coverage and many Thai facebook users asking hard questions.

[hudriwudri]

To have the distansce to CM and hereby the "objective perspective" why don't you go to Mae Hong Son (Province). Maybe your perspective will be more objective, if you can look through (the Latin word for perspective 5555)?

Go on believing in the Thai statistics.
Do you remember my joke about the statistics? Do you remember my scepticism concerning Thai statistics? Manipulation was my unprouven suspicion. And now my suspicion is substantiated here ->

My wife told me, she read in the Thaiwritten CNX Webboard, that they did the same thing in CNX, to get better results from the measuring, we go out from here on sunday, we can not stay any longer, go to the south for the rest of our holidays!

the upper limit in our homecountry austria is 50, and can be exceeded for 35 days per year, don't know how much, but i never saw more than ~~90 for a long time

Edited March 28, 2013 by hudriwudri

[wolf5370]

Don't know about figures - but this is the first year in the last four or so that I lived south of the city that there is a constant fog in the street outside - and blood red moons. Go outside and you can taste/smell it - it blocks noses. The local Thais are talking about it too - this is not normal for the south of the city in my experience.

[stoko42]

Does anyone know what the air quality is like in Sukothai

[chiang mai]

Does anyone know what the air quality is like in Sukothai

The family reports from Tung Siliam that the air there is much cleaner than in CM.

[Thailand]

Does anyone know what the air quality is like in Sukothai

The family reports from Tung Siliam that the air there is much cleaner than in CM.

Not too difficult to achieve. Only a few places worse than Chiangmai.

Since I have been here I have never had to resort to any form of device to determine if the weather is crap apart from my own sight & smell and the level of coughing. Seems to be a fairly accurate measure.

[chiang mai]

Does anyone know what the air quality is like in Sukothai

The family reports from Tung Siliam that the air there is much cleaner than in CM.

Not too difficult to achieve. Only a few places worse than Chiangmai.

Since I have been here I have never had to resort to any form of device to determine if the weather is crap apart from my own sight & smell and the level of coughing. Seems to be a fairly accurate measure.

Historically the pollution around Sukhothai at this time of the year mirrors CM to a greater degree, something different this year currently.

[Awk]

it's a good question about PCD motives.

Does the PCD want high or low numbers?

I guess they do want to justify their need and budget but also are they supposed to be controlling pollution and making the bosses and elected officials look good? Probably some of both motives with some administrative variations.

I am excited to see the hospital publishing their data also.

How long until these sensors come down in price so a nerd type can hook their own up to a computer and see what is happening at their residence?

Perhaps it's here already? http://www.dylosproducts.com/dc1700.html

A thing to note is that this devices counts the particles, while the PM data you see on the websites and in recommendations

is based on weight. So while the device tries to show how many (< 2.5um and < 10um) particles there is in the air, the WHO recommendation are based on the combined mass of the same particles within a specific area (cubic metre). I'm not sure why that is, but according to the Dylos site that is due to the recommendations being based on older technology, when counting the number of particles was more difficult than measuring the combined mass. An explanation which makes sense to me and correlates with what I read elsewhere.

It does however mean that it would be difficult to match your own numbers to that of the monitoring stations available via e.g. aqmthai.com.

There appears to be some mathematical models that try to convert from one to the other, and perhaps that is possible based on e.g. making some assumptions about the mass of the pm2.5/pm10 particles in your area. Presumably an intelligent person with the time and interest could research it. Since the Dylos unit above is portable, perhaps it is also possible to calibrate very roughly against the stations in CM.

[WinnieTheKhwai]

Does anyone know what the air quality is like in Sukothai

Hard to say. There's no public data available for the immediate area. It's in between Nakhon Sawan (PM-10 a rather high 106 for yesterday's average) and Phrae, with a very unhealthy 180. So that makes it possible that it's somewhere in between those values, but that's very much a guess.

Does anyone know what the air quality is like in Sukothai

The family reports from Tung Siliam that the air there is much cleaner than in CM.

Not too difficult to achieve. Only a few places worse than Chiangmai.

Where do you get your information?

If you just made it up, why are you doing that?

This is a serious matter this time of year, really not helped by fantasy or joking around when many people wouldn't get it as being a joke.

(Out of 11 other stations in the North, 10 are reporting worse conditions than Chiang Mai, with Lamphun the one that occasionally shows marginal better conditions. And that's looking only at PM-10. If you take other pollutants into account then Central Thailand shows similar overall air quality (or lack thereof) to Chiang Mai. )

Edited March 28, 2013 by WinnieTheKhwai

[hudriwudri]

http://www.cm108.com/bbb/index.php?/topic/56407-aoaeuoeaaaoaeeaeeoeoeaaneaueeoacoaaao-sauo20-an/

for those who can read Thai this report from Chiang Mai

http://www.cm108.com/bbb/index.php?/topic/56399-oceoueoanco-aoaoaaoaaeicneaiacneaiaeae/

and this one from Chiang Rai with the man spraying water on the measurement station

Edited March 28, 2013 by hudriwudri

[demonietto]

Because otherwise there'd be no way to track if it gets better or worse, other than through people staring out a window and personal anecdotes. Imagine trying to debate the issue then. (Oh, wait..

I saw the mountain today! We're in the clear!

[WinnieTheKhwai]

Heh, I wish. :-)

Think it's going to go on for a bit, into the first week of April. That's just a guess by the way.

[DWayneLove]

Because otherwise there'd be no way to track if it gets better or worse, other than through people staring out a window and personal anecdotes. Imagine trying to debate the issue then. (Oh, wait..

I saw the mountain today! We're in the clear!

Doi Suthep is on fire tonight! No we're not!

[CobraSnakeNecktie]

Perhaps it's here already? http://www.dylosproducts.com/dc1700.html

A thing to note is that this devices counts the particles, while the PM data you see on the websites and in recommendations

is based on weight. So while the device tries to show how many (< 2.5um and < 10um) particles there is in the air, the WHO recommendation are based on the combined mass of the same particles within a specific area (cubic metre). I'm not sure why that is, but according to the Dylos site that is due to the recommendations being based on older technology, when counting the number of particles was more difficult than measuring the combined mass. An explanation which makes sense to me and correlates with what I read elsewhere.

It does however mean that it would be difficult to match your own numbers to that of the monitoring stations available via e.g. aqmthai.com.

There appears to be some mathematical models that try to convert from one to the other, and perhaps that is possible based on e.g. making some assumptions about the mass of the pm2.5/pm10 particles in your area. Presumably an intelligent person with the time and interest could research it. Since the Dylos unit above is portable, perhaps it is also possible to calibrate very roughly against the stations in CM.

Awk

Once these get a little more consumer oriented and accessories for the Iphones and Samsungs portables then it's GAME ON.

I imagine there are huge markets for this if the price gets down. Users could be automatically sharing time sensitive mobile readouts of conditions in all sorts of places.

Going to be nowhere to hide behind assumptions and wishful/pessimistic thinking.

People are going to want to know the pollutants where they are and where they are going to be.

Edited March 28, 2013 by CobraSnakeNecktie

[Mapguy]

A littler humor to keep out balance...

Gahan Wilson Cartoon.pdf