Smoke, Smog, Dust 2013 Chiang Mai

[Tywais]

Don't you have a bigger pocture?

Fixed it so it doesn't mess up displays.

Sorry, didn't know it wouldn't resize on everyone's display. Live and learn.

Seems to be an issue specific to Firefox even though FF supports auto-resize, seems to be a script conflict with Thaivisa and FF. I have a 24" HD monitor and it occupied more than twice that space with the scroll bars needed to move around.

[dave2]

ok who stole doi suthep this morning ?

it was there three days ago !

dave2

[ncrane]

thanks for all the information posted on this thread. it has been a help. as a first time smoke season sufferer i have been sick constantly since the last week of march when the smoke was terrible and was just feeling better the week of songkran as the smoke cleared. i am getting nervous watching the haze return today. i have asked my thai friends how long the season lasts, but i always get a different answer. i was originally told it would be over as of songkran. any old hands venture to guess what the next few weeks might be like? i otherwise love this city, but i have to say i can't take another burning season here. i marvel at people who seem impervious to the onslaught of smoke, ash and what must be carcinogens haunting the air.

[JohnLocke]

thanks for all the information posted on this thread. it has been a help. as a first time smoke season sufferer i have been sick constantly since the last week of march when the smoke was terrible and was just feeling better the week of songkran as the smoke cleared. i am getting nervous watching the haze return today. i have asked my thai friends how long the season lasts, but i always get a different answer. i was originally told it would be over as of songkran. any old hands venture to guess what the next few weeks might be like? i otherwise love this city, but i have to say i can't take another burning season here. i marvel at people who seem impervious to the onslaught of smoke, ash and what must be carcinogens haunting the air.

I can't really answer your question, but can sympathize with your worries. My wife and I experienced our first burn season in 2007. It was extremely bad for about two weeks. I recall waking in the morning feeling like I had a big weight on my chest and my lungs felt like sandbags. Visibility was less than one Old City block. Even strolling in Kad Suan Kaew one could see white haze from the end of one floor to another. But, in my vague recollection, it came and went within a few weeks.

2010 and 2011 were mercifully mild burn seasons. Last year the pattern seemed to markedly change. It started early in the year and just kept going and going and going. I don't think it really ended till mid-May, though I'm not certain. I couldn't believe how long the burning season had become. It really was horrible.

This year wasn't as bad as last, but the duration seems to match. I can only speculate that farmers and land owners are trying not to overlap their burning with their immediate neighbors. Perhaps a modicum of self-awareness that's just delaying and prolonging the overall burning, but reducing the day-to-day intensity. Just a possibility.

I just checked the weather forecast, and if it's to be believed, no rain is in store for us over the next ten days. :-(

[ncrane]

thanks for all the information posted on this thread. it has been a help. as a first time smoke season sufferer i have been sick constantly since the last week of march when the smoke was terrible and was just feeling better the week of songkran as the smoke cleared. i am getting nervous watching the haze return today. i have asked my thai friends how long the season lasts, but i always get a different answer. i was originally told it would be over as of songkran. any old hands venture to guess what the next few weeks might be like? i otherwise love this city, but i have to say i can't take another burning season here. i marvel at people who seem impervious to the onslaught of smoke, ash and what must be carcinogens haunting the air.

I can't really answer your question, but can sympathize with your worries. My wife and I experienced our first burn season in 2007. It was extremely bad for about two weeks. I recall waking in the morning feeling like I had a big weight on my chest and my lungs felt like sandbags. Visibility was less than one Old City block. Even strolling in Kad Suan Kaew one could see white haze from the end of one floor to another. But, in my vague recollection, it came and went within a few weeks.

2010 and 2011 were mercifully mild burn seasons. Last year the pattern seemed to markedly change. It started early in the year and just kept going and going and going. I don't think it really ended till mid-May, though I'm not certain. I couldn't believe how long the burning season had become. It really was horrible.

This year wasn't as bad as last, but the duration seems to match. I can only speculate that farmers and land owners are trying not to overlap their burning with their immediate neighbors. Perhaps a modicum of self-awareness that's just delaying and prolonging the overall burning, but reducing the day-to-day intensity. Just a possibility.

I just checked the weather forecast, and if it's to be believed, no rain is in store for us over the next ten days. :-(

Thanks Mozart Chewbacca. I think we're over the worst. I was sort of banking on it all having passed by now and suppose I am dissapointed in my own foolish optimism.

[T_Dog]

Dog's water bowl outside was full of black ashes and dust from the night's burning above Mae Taeng. The winds are carrying it away quite fast so the day today was quite nice. I see on the Chiang Rai forum that burning up there is also quite active. Let's hope the wind direction doesn't switch as the smoke is always worse with a flow from the north. The winds from the south these past two weeks are what we need.

[nikster]

We need more rain, that's all. More is forecast for next week... the worst is over by now; not because people stop burning - they won't. But because rains are setting in.

[dave2]

re

We need more rain

well after the little bit of rain we had last night the view of doi suthep this morning is a bit better

but not a lot : (

dave2

[T_Dog]

Some photos of the smoldering beauty of last night's burns..... It just keeps going, and going, and going........ I figure you can head into the mountains in virtually any direction and this is what you will find. Once the sun gets low, the locals get out there in the beautiful evening air and torch up. It's tradition you know...... I rode with a mask on the climb as the air was so bad, but luckily the wind came up after the climb and cleared things up. At any rate, this is what the mountains look like after a fresh burn.

[T_Dog]

Smelled fresh smoke early this evening and could see flames. People that lit it were leaving in laughter as I took the photos. Another fire was a bit further down the road. Going to have to get a camera with "Fire" scene mode.

[dave2]

re

the view of doi suthep this morning is a bit better

but not a lot : (

its better today..pic taken an hour ago : )

dave2

[WinnieTheKhwai]

Yup.. beautiful day today.

Time to tot up the totals for the year, to compare against previous yeara and also as a starting point for next year's discussion, when we'll be doing it all over again.

[Mapguy]

Ok, tote it up, as suggested. But why? I guess because it is interesting in some sort of maturbatory way? If you do, with voluminous charts and what have you that Priceless (too sniffy to contribute his talents this year's discussion) might provide, your voice will still be noted. Yes, really! If Priceless does or doesn't contribute, actually, if you put in the sweat equity, you can figure the stats out yourself. My casual observation is that the "season" this year has been somewhat longer than "average" with less daily (but still sickening) average pollution (PM<10) peaks) than have usually been experienced in the past.

But that isn't the point, is it?

The point is: not statistics. The Thai government has all the statistics. So, who has what at stake? TAT? Chiang Mai municipality? Think about it!

So, Thaivisa denizens, don't just jack off here. Take the effort; or is that too much effort!

It is interesting how the media have focused on the "power" of the social media in the last to or so years. Doesn't seem to apply here! Except maybe for finding the best hamburger.

Like clear air? So do I! Lovely, recently. But, perhaps, the fat lady ain't sung yet. Ha ha?! Well, one of the official tactics is to extend the burning season to November-December and, perhaps --- rain permitting --- into April, not that "Mother Nature" may cooperate. That would, even out the burning over a longer period of time! Think about that!

So what will you do?

Edited April 24, 2013 by Mapguy

[MESmith]

Burning season where I live is end October through to end June. Kicked off again in the last few days once the smog cleared. Those that didn't plant a dry season rice crop are preparing burning their fields that have become overgrown in the dry season. Lazy farming, pure & simple.

[WinnieTheKhwai]

Ok, tote it up, as suggested. But why? I guess because it is interesting in some sort of maturbatory way?

I thought that would be obvious: in order to know if the situation year on year is worsening or improving. Otherwise you never get beyond wild rants and baseless claims. And as (very limited) efforts are being made to reduce burning, you need to see if those are effective or not.

But anyway, I'm going to wait until the end of April because the season went long this year, so I'd like to include a full month of April to compare it against April in earlier years.

But the overall summary isn't going to be a big surprise: the season started later than usual but also continued longer than usual, making for an overall fairly average year. (A little better than the 10 year average, but perhaps not by a significant margin.)

Edited April 25, 2013 by WinnieTheKhwai

[Mapguy]

Regret to say, the fat lady still hasn't sung! But we are getting close!

So, what have we learned? Not much except, of course, how intractable the "problem" seems to be.

It is certainly valid that the solution to the burning is not easy. There are traditional patterns of behavior, economic incentives, poor exercise of sanctions (i.e., no meaningful enforcement) and so on to overcome. I do believe that the Thai educational program --- never mind the silly "Don't burn!" signs in English with the faces of your favorite politicians --- is in place. But, obviously, that is the easiest step to take.

Just to reflect upon critics, comparatively, how many of us know that Earth Day was 22 April? How many "celebrated" it ? Talk about the relative diminution of the value of environmental sustainability! Even given the hopping up and down about "earth warming !!!" Read the following article. I'll wager that there is no significant difference among developed countries:

http://www.csmonitor.com/USA/DC-Decoder/Decoder-Wire/2013/0422/Earth-Day-2013-What-s-in-danger-is-Earth-Day-not-just-Earth

So, what are you doing; other than complaining on this site? Opportunities, albeit not grand, present themselves. If at a total loss, you can at least Twitter away! And not to the Natural Resources and Environment provincial ministry office! They know what's going on and report it regularly. (See below!) That ministry has no enforcement authority!! Pick the governor or the PM's office. Sounds silly, but from small tweets change might be stimulated!

What else better have desktop denizens and iPhone "phonatics" have to do on TV Chiang Mai? Complain about the quality of hamburgers? Or steaks, now, it seems. Or the quality of aged raw meat in Loh Kroh bars ?! I suggest alternative paths to pissing into a cyberwind. Maybe I am wrong, but it appears that the educational and socioeconomic status of posters is strengthening on TV ChIang Mai despite the strong bhat. Sort of.

[Mapguy]

Ok, tote it up, as suggested. But why? I guess because it is interesting in some sort of maturbatory way?

I thought that would be obvious: in order to know if the situation year on year is worsening or improving. Otherwise you never get beyond wild rants and baseless claims. And as (very limited) efforts are being made to reduce burning, you need to see if those are effective or not.

But anyway, I'm going to wait until the end of April because the season went long this year, so I'd like to include a full month of April to compare it against April in earlier years.

But the overall summary isn't going to be a big surprise: the season started later than usual but also continued longer than usual, making for an overall fairly average year. (A little better than the 10 year average, but perhaps not by a significant margin.)

Some good points here and reasonably presented. I am not into rants and baseless claims, either, but here goes anyway!

I will speak occasionally below about Priceless, a once fairly prolific poster on this topic. If you really want to get into this, just search his posts. Nothing this year, but lots previously.

Many newbies won't know who Priceless is. You, Winnie, seem to have become more and more Priceless" mouthpiece now that he has regrettably absented himself from the discussion with us hoi poloi on air pollution in Northern Thailand, mainly Chiang Mai. But to parce numbers --- his normal offering, as he does --- too precisely has very serious limits. I agree, with Priceless to a point, but he has gone absolutely --- and unnecessarily (but not incorrectly) --- ballistic because of certain outrageous statements made by some enraged newbies about Chiang Mai's serious seasonal air pollution problem who just like to bitch and moan making silly comparisons with other Thai cities, and so on. Bar talk!

I had some very early (six years ago) PMs with Priceless. We have read the same books. I know Priceless will never forgive me, but even though I am reasonably familiar with scientific and statistical methodologies, he long since did whatever you do to ignore my posts or PMs! I guess it might have been when I suggested --- if the pollution is bad --- "Your nose knows!" That is, never mind the decimal place!

If we wish to argue the conduct of inquiry, et cetera --- the strengths and weaknesses of the scientific and statistical methods, If you bother to do that sort of reading --- then this is not the place. In real time, simply, Chiang Mai is seasonally polluted to a dangerous public and personal health extent. The seasonal situation (basically mid-February - mid-April) appears to be getting incrementally better over time ( albeit a short time series, Priceless, old boy!) As well, have some people spotted a MAJOR problem in Priceless' analysis. That is, quite simply, he bases his conclusions for Chiang Mai Province (a rather large area) on just two data collection points which report regularly. That is a definite methodological no-no!! So, I suggest that the nose also knows!

Individual experiences with air pollution vary. In a city (as in behind diesel fume belching songtao), your personal experience is quite different from someone in the country away from traffic, who might of course still have to deal with a neighbor burning his leaves and the burning of adjacent rice fields! So although I actually agree with Priceless' large point that two data collection points indeed give you a reasonable belief in the general picture of conditions in a valley like Chiang Mai (a geomorphic bowl in which crap is trapped), that is NOT scientifically valid nor an acceptable conclusion statistically. Without saying it the same way, he is still saying "Your nose knows!"

So, WInnie, pass this along to your sponsor who thinks I am a total nincompoop. He has a lot of offer, but a blizzard of numbers doesn't necessarily clear the air and Priceless' past obsession with some of the idiotic posters about air pollution has been pointless. I am sorry that he has not felt confident to continue offering what positive and sometimes very thoughtful contributions he has made.

But then, again, he might be too busy cleaning the cat boxes at his house. His cats are awesome !!! Talk about air pollution !!!

Edited April 25, 2013 by Mapguy

[ogb]

Maybe Priceless has followed his nose and left town during Feb to April - it seems the only realistic coping option, no matter what the numbers say.

[orang37]

I am not into rants and baseless claims

Sawasdee Khrup, Khun Mapguy,

Of course I've never seen you rant, here, never seen you saying things like other members do here, such as: characterizing discussion on a topic as masturbatory; or, using "strong language" (eloquently !) like "pissing into a cyberwind." Certainly, I have never read any words by you, here, that castigated (by inference, all) TV CM members, in general, as "lazy," "unmotivated," etc.

Surely, I have never seen you make a baseless claim, like suggesting one member is acting as a mouthpiece for another on a thread, here (technically, in modern net jargon: that would be a form of sock-puppetry). Nor have I ever seen you claim that the absence of participation of a certain member was due to anything but: the simple reason suggested by the principle of Ockham's (Occam if you like) Razor: the member's simply not in town now, or has moved.

Now, hoping the above words have soothed your heart, let me say, more seriously:

I (both of me), and I am sure many others, here, have really enjoyed your posts ! I've always enjoyed this thread, and Winnie's many contributions, the pithy reports and comments of ME_Smith, and others, and your back-and-forth with other members, Dave's and T_Dog's photographs, etc.

I do regret that, for whatever reason, Khun Priceless is not around, or not choosing to take part; the exchanges in the past between he and you, and others, were, imho, some of the best I've read here, in terms of quantitative, and qualitative, analysis, and debate.

In terms of what we can actually "do," as long-term expats living here, that can affect macro-level aspects of this country's ecological future, bio-diversity, environmental quality, quality of educational systems for the next generations: I don't see much opportunity beyond that (now somewhat cliched) heuristic: "think globally, act locally." Perhaps other folks around here, like NGO workers, and Missionaries, can, and do, have more impact ?

But, that does not render me (us) "hopeless," nor does it render me "grandiose" about the meaning of the personal acts I do "locally," which I hope at least communicate something positive to Thai people around me, on some level.

My sincere wish is that you would feel your comments on this thread are appreciated, and that you will continue presenting your viewpoint, and information. But, if you are experiencing frustration with posting here, if your expectations of response are not being met, perhaps that indicates it's time to take a break ?

yours, ~o:37;

[Tywais]

Wow O:37, is that you posting as the degree of lucidity is impressive? <just kidding>.

Probably best not to focus on Priceless as it is not fair to him. Odds are that the frustration of being constantly attacked by members in his effort to put a scientific light on the subject has him gun shy.

[Mapguy]

I hope Priceless hasn't moved. Or given up the number crunching. Although there some problems with method, his presentations,which take a lot of effort, and some other very thoughtful research have been both interesting and helpful. As I've written before, I miss the guy!

[cdnvic]

Nicer people have asked for the personal attacks to stop, but if I have to delete another, the author of it is going away for awhile.

Sent from my HTC Incredible S using Thaivisa Connect Thailand mobile app

[orang37]

Probably best not to focus on Priceless as it is not fair to him. Odds are that the frustration of being constantly attacked by members in his effort to put a scientific light on the subject has him gun shy.

Sawasdee Khrup, Khun Tywais,

I'm a little baffled that you perceived my post as, in any way, focusing on Khun P. He is mentioned by name in just one sentence, where I state I regret his absence, which I do, and praise his contributions, but that I don't find any need to interpret his absence. I can't imagine Khun P. would take offense at my post, and I'd bet Khun M. didn't either.

I apolgize if my response gave offense to anyone, including Thee !

yours, ~o:37;

[Tywais]

Probably best not to focus on Priceless as it is not fair to him. Odds are that the frustration of being constantly attacked by members in his effort to put a scientific light on the subject has him gun shy.

Sawasdee Khrup, Khun Tywais,

I'm a little baffled that you perceived my post as, in any way, focusing on Khun P. He is mentioned by name in just one sentence, where I state I regret his absence, which I do, and praise his contributions, but that I don't find any need to interpret his absence. I can't imagine Khun P. would take offense at my post, and I'd bet Khun M. didn't either.

I apolgize if my response gave offense to anyone, including Thee !

yours, ~o:37;

It was a general caution and not you specifically as it had already started in previous posts and continued. Just wanted to head it off and my error in making it appear to be only you.

[WinnieTheKhwai]

Okay, some more math and statistics.

In last year's discussion on this topic, we managed 38 pages and almost 1000 posts. (934)

This year.. we barely made 20 pages, probably 21 after discussing the totals for the season.

So we're looking at a 45% reduction for this year! Clearly the situation is improving.

Edited April 26, 2013 by WinnieTheKhwai

[CMX]

"However, government medical reports in the following weeks estimated that up until 8th December 4,000 people had died prematurely and 100,000 more were made ill because of the smog's effects on the human respiratory tract. More recent research suggests that the total number of fatalities was considerably greater at about 12,000.^[2]" - Wiki (bold and underline mine).

This was London, very, very recently in human history - 1952. As if we knew better not very long ago, we being 'modern' and wise. Meanwhile, Los Angeles took apart trams to make more car and truck lanes.

Real choices are simple:

1. Walk or ride (exposed) back and forth on Narawat Bridge when the spray's working.
2. Pay enormous fees for proper filters for a small room and stay in it.
3. Get out of town for at least 7 weeks, more or less, depending on your health. But don't even try to plan ahead; use yer nose.
4. Tolerate it and go on about life - what's left, that is.
5. Use best medical advice you can find.

* Braying on ThVi, so far as I've seen for a few years, does no good, and leads Winnie to collect data we cannot (quite) trust.

Edited April 26, 2013 by CMX

[T_Dog]

I think everyone is in a grumpier mood when the smoke is about. I know I have a hard time being "on top of the world" when the air is unhealthy and you can see people continue to burn. Plus, from a Myers-Briggs perspective, Thai Visa members are all over the map so there are sure to be misunderstandings and conflict: Some like data , some not so much, and some desire confirmation on its accuracy and completeness. If people weren't different, we'd all be the same.

It is nice to see cleaner air, but earlier tonight I still saw some huge plumes just a few kilometers away. The wind gods were on my side today though.

[Mapguy]

CMX, I am very sympathetic to your post. It is a good history lesson, but we are fortunate here, even given our problem, not to be experiencing so grim a situation as the 1952 London "killer smog." It was caused in large part by chimney pots belching coal smoke. Maybe Beijing and some other Chinese cities are almost as grim today.

Perhaps one instructive point is that the UK solved the problem. It isn't yet being solved here. Another point is that people here suffer and die from it, or die earlier than they should.

By the way, there is a really gruesome picture of that London smog that you can google. The pictures I see of Beijing this year are almost as bad!

[CMX]

Mapguy, thanks, yes...

Yes, the infamous London 'killer smog' did lead to correction. But the notion that somehow modern 1952 England acted quickly and right away is not the case; this killing smoke occurred after decades of 'pea soupers' that were doing the same killing, more slowly, since well before that century began. It was not identified and accepted as a problem for decades, since we humans don't like to change; also, someone's economic interests opposed such a change. That's the same here. Consider those unconcerned by global warming, sez I, before chiding oriental farmers who don't 'get' it.

I guess that's my point: Thais behave exactly as have we expats and our ancestors. Knowledge fights against perceived economic interests before much ever happens. I suggest that everyone here complaining about evolutions in Thailand have little memory of their own nation's struggles to their present conditions. And that's why we feel that we have the standing to complain.

Edited April 27, 2013 by CMX

[cloudhopper]

Just returned to Pai - very hot, dry and hazy. 2 forest fires seen burning last night on the mountains to the West; mountains cannot be seen this morning. Unusually strong South winds until midnight but calm and light smoke smell in the air this morning.