"tea Money"...good Or Bad, Advantage Vs Disadvantage

[rene123]

Tea Money get's you this...........

http://www.bbc.co.uk...d-asia-19292531

and this..............

http://www.huffingto...-_n_783446.html

and this.............

http://www.bbc.co.uk...-china-16345592

It's what happens when you can't trust the agencies to enforce the laws, you end up with shoddy construction, management and out and out negligence/ dereliction of duty.

There's many a person dropping dead every year in Thailand due to poor wiring and other building related issues, the government could bring in World class construction regulations and I think we know they wouldn't be worth the paper they would be written on.

Beechboy is right.

Yes, Beechboy IS right. However, that is how the world works. In some countries it is worse than others, but corruption is everywhere. You can't be just a little bit pregnant. You either are or you are not. Stealing a 10 baht item is the same as robbing a bank... they are both still theft. However, there are mitigating factors in just about everything. If someone is starving and needs food to eat, then taking it from someone who has more than they need is just a means of survival. From what I've heard, the police in Thailand are not given an adequate salary. They are EXPECTED to make up the difference in "tea money". In North America we pay our police a good salary and expect them to do a good job. But, that comes at the expense of higher taxes.

[theblether]

It's a question of scale Rene, a little backhander to get you off with a parking ticket is one thing, using compacted plastic bags to set the foundation of a bridge which subsequently collapsed in China is another. Then it's discovered that the firm that built the bridge were unqualified and it was tea money that got them the contract.

We could go round in circles on this, at the end of the day the Rule of Law is best foundation for a fair society, not the Rule of Man, which is invariably underpinned by tea money flowing upwards.

There's many a person came to grief in Thailand due to that.

[rookball]

i came across this chinese saying about the corruption of the chinese when i was still in china learning chinese.

上梁不正下梁歪

basically it means if the top isnt straight, the bottom would be crooked. i think its a very meaning sentence

and i think reverse of it also tells alot about on how corrupted is one system is. sure corruption and bribery exists everywhere but if one could easily bribe over some trivial matters, imagine the rest

[theblether]

i came across this chinese saying about the corruption of the chinese when i was still in china learning chinese.

上梁不正下梁歪

basically it means if the top isnt straight, the bottom would be crooked. i think its a very meaning sentence

and i think reverse of it also tells alot about on how corrupted is one system is. sure corruption and bribery exists everywhere but if one could easily bribe over some trivial matters, imagine the rest

Excellent.

[manarak]

i came across this chinese saying about the corruption of the chinese when i was still in china learning chinese.

上梁不正下梁歪

basically it means if the top isnt straight, the bottom would be crooked. i think its a very meaning sentence

and i think reverse of it also tells alot about on how corrupted is one system is. sure corruption and bribery exists everywhere but if one could easily bribe over some trivial matters, imagine the rest

I think the analogy doesn't work.

I can pay a bribe to make a traffic ticket go away, but this doesn't mean that it also works for murder.

[theblether]

i came across this chinese saying about the corruption of the chinese when i was still in china learning chinese.

上梁不正下梁歪

basically it means if the top isnt straight, the bottom would be crooked. i think its a very meaning sentence

and i think reverse of it also tells alot about on how corrupted is one system is. sure corruption and bribery exists everywhere but if one could easily bribe over some trivial matters, imagine the rest

I think the analogy doesn't work.

I can pay a bribe to make a traffic ticket go away, but this doesn't mean that it also works for murder.

It's top down, not bottom up.

[notmyself]

i came across this chinese saying about the corruption of the chinese when i was still in china learning chinese.

上梁不正下梁歪

basically it means if the top isnt straight, the bottom would be crooked. i think its a very meaning sentence

The Pope.

[manarak]

i came across this chinese saying about the corruption of the chinese when i was still in china learning chinese.

上梁不正下梁歪

basically it means if the top isnt straight, the bottom would be crooked. i think its a very meaning sentence

and i think reverse of it also tells alot about on how corrupted is one system is. sure corruption and bribery exists everywhere but if one could easily bribe over some trivial matters, imagine the rest

I think the analogy doesn't work.

I can pay a bribe to make a traffic ticket go away, but this doesn't mean that it also works for murder.

It's top down, not bottom up.

I didn't mean the Chinese saying, because these always work somehow, but meant this:

but if one could easily bribe over some trivial matters, imagine the rest

[notmyself]

I didn't mean the Chinese saying, because these always work somehow, but meant this:

but if one could easily bribe over some trivial matters, imagine the rest

Logical fallacy

Affirming the consequent

Affirming the consequent, sometimes called converse error or fallacy of the converse, is a formal fallacy of inferring the converse from the original statement. The corresponding argument has the general form:

1. If P, then Q.
   
2. Q.
   
3. Therefore, P.
   

An argument of this form is invalid, i.e., the conclusion can be false even when statements 1 and 2 are true. Since P was never asserted as the only sufficient condition for Q, other factors could account for Q (while P was false).

The name affirming the consequent derives from the premise Q, which affirms the "then" clause of the conditional premise.

http://en.wikipedia...._the_consequent

Your quote fails though it can be quite hard to detect due to wording. However, it will also fail with at leat half a dozen of the following.

http://www.don-linds.../arguments.html

[manarak]

I didn't mean the Chinese saying, because these always work somehow, but meant this:

but if one could easily bribe over some trivial matters, imagine the rest

Logical fallacy

Affirming the consequent

Affirming the consequent, sometimes called converse error or fallacy of the converse, is a formal fallacy of inferring the converse from the original statement. The corresponding argument has the general form:

1. If P, then Q.
   
2. Q.
   
3. Therefore, P.
   

An argument of this form is invalid, i.e., the conclusion can be false even when statements 1 and 2 are true. Since P was never asserted as the only sufficient condition for Q, other factors could account for Q (while P was false).

The name affirming the consequent derives from the premise Q, which affirms the "then" clause of the conditional premise.

http://en.wikipedia...._the_consequent

Your quote fails though it can be quite hard to detect due to wording. However, it will also fail with at leat half a dozen of the following.

http://www.don-linds.../arguments.html

Yes, that's the pedantic explanation of why Rookball's analogy doesn't work.

[David006]

.....no matter what it is called be it tea money,bribery, corruption,lobbying,unethical behaviour, greasing wheels, it comes down to the fact that money talks!

Had a psych test years ago with a Brit corporation..one of the questions was: "do you believe that there is one law for the rich and one for the poor?"...says a lot?

When I was at GE we had ethics rammed down our throats ..you did not dare ask about the boondoggles for customers et al. .....Just wear the T-Shirt and bite your tongue......

Looked up the worlds most ethical companies......... yet many of these companies continue to exploit the worlds labour and resources ....gotta ask how these companie$ get on the li$t??

Money and the power it brings rules in every facet of life.....good or bad is irrelevant methinks?

At the end of the day we can only do what we think is right according to our values but we have to be part of the money circus if we are to survive?

[ozzieovaseas]

IMO, we really should'nt get worked up about what is essentially "the system" here.

It seems to work out OK for the Thais anyway...maybe they see it as a form of paying dues (or respect) for the position of the higher person, therefor this tea money being given as compensation for what that person would surely have had to pay to gain such a position..

The err..shall we say...tea drinker...is then greatful to this person he now sees as JAIDEE, and in turn will endeavour to do his tea provider a little favour wherever he can...

As a bonus, said tea maker has gained a friend for life..who could always come in handy late on.

Not much use us farangs comparing things from a western viewpoint. Arguing that our individual global "systems" (whether labelled corrupt OR sanctioned by the passing of various laws) are any more morally superioir than that of the Asian way is a completley pointless waste of time, as it will never change

Indeed, we will never change these things, nor have we the right to do so, in the same way as an Asian has no say in the way we run our countries.

IF a Thai were to respond to any criticism from, lets say, a US citizen, he might defend his stance by asking " SO..how has YOUR system being working for you lately??

In Aus we say "Hey have a look at the scoreboard mate"

I can still remember my youth, my cousins and I playing Monopoly, we'd always run outta that dam_n paper money..little did we know how easily the problem could have been solved..

alas it was an impossible task, since the old commodore 64 we had did not come with a printer and scanner

Edited January 17, 2013 by ozzieovaseas

[bonobo]

I also consider bribing oneself out of a police incident such as drunk driving or speeding not to be too bad, because traffic safety is a matter of statistics, not a matter of individual or coincidential situations.

But bribes to allow for doing damage to other people's wellbeing or property are evil in nature.

Drunk driving is nto bad because it is a matter of statistics? I am flabbergasted. Drunk driving skews the statistics, and it does allow for doing damage to other people's wellbeing or property.

When I was a volunteer EMT, 100% of all fatal traffic accidents to which I responded were drinking-related even if the people killed were not always the ones drinking and driving.

As Robblok posted before your post, paying a bribe to get out of a drunk driving charge only encourages people to drive drunk. And "statistically," that will lead to someone getting hurt.

[MrRealDeal]

Not exactly because the 3 mill usually goes to a victum not to the police

What? Were have you been hiding?

Obviously not all of it goes to the victum but in settlements of that sort they are settlements to the victum ..... if you have some other opinion please explain

It depends a lot on the status of the victim or the victims family. But the amounts relatively are very small compared to the millions of dollars that can be paid to the police or judiciary. Should someone, say, run over a policeman when driving a Ferrari

Thats true and the same principle would apply in the west ..... do you think killing some bum would get the sames settlement in a court as killig a sucsessfull person in the US ? ......Normally some foirmula is used that would include their future earnings so less sucsessfull peoples familys would get less.. And why should some derelict be deemed as valuable as a doctor ? Isn't is pretty important to take the status of the victim into account in determining some value for their loss ? You can't seriously think all people should be vauled the same.

I understand that the Police would likely get more than a comparable worker of another kind in Thailand ...... But so would a Lawyer in the US ..... and just like the Red Bull case the Victum of OJ Simpson likely get a bigger settlement than if the perpetrator had been some poor person who didn't have any money to pay in the first place. And somewhat similar, OJ Lawyered or paid with high priced lawyers his way out of the crime.

My point as usual is that a closer look at the OUTCOME of the 2 systems is not all that different a lot of the time ...... Poor people in the US get longer sentences , go to jail more often , are found guilty when they are not more often, ect .... and wealthy people buy their way out of lawsuits all the time .... MJ reportly paid his way of of child molestion , how many banksters ever go to jail ? In the US your lawyer negoitates with the DA in Thailand it's with the Police\victum first ... both systems allow for negoitating your way of of jail or reducing your penalty.

The reason I like the Thai system is that it allows the victum more of a say, and allows them more likely compensation than the US. Second I think it reduces the overall cost to the innocent taxpayers in terms of court costs and jail costs. In the US the taxpayers might pay 3-5000$ for a simple assult by the time it's over and the victum get nothng, without filing his own civil action. In Thailand the victum likely reach a settlement and get something, and the taxpayer pay nothing.

I guess the risk Thailand is willing to take is that the settlements have the same deterent effect as whatever a court in the US might impose , I don't really know if it does or doesn't but my guess would be neither are all that much of a deterent and cirminals don't care or consider the penalty of either system before comminting crimes. I think when people are a threat to the population Thailand has no poblem putting them in Jail.

I do think the point about buying your way out of a DUI for 100 bht does make some sence, but it's only the low price I have a problem with not the principle of paying your fine on the spot to the cops saving everyone a lot of time and money.

Edited January 17, 2013 by MrRealDeal

[bonobo]

I do think the point about buying your way out of a DUI for 100 bht does make some sence, but it's only the low price I have a problem with not the principle of paying your fine on the spot to the cops saving everyone a lot of time and money.

There is a huge difference, though. In Thailand, the "on the spot fine" goes right into the police officer's pocket. In many jurisdictions in the US, and I imagine in other countries as well, the official fine goes into victim compensation funds, traffic safety programs, road work, the courts, etc.

Corruption of any kind, whether in Thailand or elsewhere, is a blight on society and is theft, pure and simple.

[manarak]

I also consider bribing oneself out of a police incident such as drunk driving or speeding not to be too bad, because traffic safety is a matter of statistics, not a matter of individual or coincidential situations.

But bribes to allow for doing damage to other people's wellbeing or property are evil in nature.

Drunk driving is nto bad because it is a matter of statistics? I am flabbergasted. Drunk driving skews the statistics, and it does allow for doing damage to other people's wellbeing or property.

When I was a volunteer EMT, 100% of all fatal traffic accidents to which I responded were drinking-related even if the people killed were not always the ones drinking and driving.

As Robblok posted before your post, paying a bribe to get out of a drunk driving charge only encourages people to drive drunk. And "statistically," that will lead to someone getting hurt.

I'm surprised you take such shortcuts in (mis)interpreting my post.

Of course drunk driving is bad!

But being able to bribe out doesn't have much negative effects IMO, because firstly the bribe is already a fine, so there is a punishment.

Second, most people don't have enough money to pay such bribes, especially repeatedly.

So on the whole, drunk driving still gets curbed and 2 or 5% bribing their way out will not affect the statistics much.

[theblether]

It's a theft perpetrated against the working man..........it's a theft perpetrated against the weakest in society. We didn't spend centuries of struggle for the rights of the common man in our home countries to rejoice in the same chains being shackled to our Asian brothers that we ourselves rejected.

The OP, Krisb, is Australian...........get on your feet and denounce Tea Money.

It's a Charter for the Rich and Powerful to Tax and Intimidate the Poor and Weak.

On the Eve Of Australia Day.................it's anti- Australian.

On the Eve Of Burns Birthday.........it's anti the Common Man.

"A Man's A Man For A' That".

You're a weak man if you pay tea money.

.

Edited January 17, 2013 by theblether

[Trembly]

Tea money,

You always screw someone because of it.

Constructor and government official after some tea money not the best but the worst get the job and isnt checked for doing a good job. Constructor happy, government official who is bribed happy. Looser, tax payer or people using the construction

Paying your way from a drunk driving charge

You happy police happy next time you drink again because you can get out of it.. and this time you hit and kill someone... guess who isn't happy.

School example.. others who got in the school on their merits aren't happy because if they let stupid guys in and graduate it brings the value of the diploma down.

Anyway call me a moralist, i think tea money is wrong. But i don't deny it can be useful for the people involved.

As a teacher who has to deal with "how the hell did he get into the gifted class?" kids on a daily basis I can tell you that there are few things that hamper learning for other kids more than kids who simply shouldn't be there. In fact it's one of the reasons I'm quitting.

[MrRealDeal]

I do think the point about buying your way out of a DUI for 100 bht does make some sence, but it's only the low price I have a problem with not the principle of paying your fine on the spot to the cops saving everyone a lot of time and money.

There is a huge difference, though. In Thailand, the "on the spot fine" goes right into the police officer's pocket. In many jurisdictions in the US, and I imagine in other countries as well, the official fine goes into victim compensation funds, traffic safety programs, road work, the courts, etc.

Corruption of any kind, whether in Thailand or elsewhere, is a blight on society and is theft, pure and simple.

Their is no jurisdiction in the US where the fines cover the cost of the Court system it only slightly reduces the taxpayer burden. Courts are not a cash flow positive enterprise giving their profits to those things. All the things you mentioned except a small part of the compensation fund are funded by taxes not fines and come from the general fund of states towns and the federal goverment because the cost to run them is higher than the fines they collect. ..... however I get your point about the cops pocketing the cash.

[theblether]

Tea money,

You always screw someone because of it.

Constructor and government official after some tea money not the best but the worst get the job and isnt checked for doing a good job. Constructor happy, government official who is bribed happy. Looser, tax payer or people using the construction

Paying your way from a drunk driving charge

You happy police happy next time you drink again because you can get out of it.. and this time you hit and kill someone... guess who isn't happy.

School example.. others who got in the school on their merits aren't happy because if they let stupid guys in and graduate it brings the value of the diploma down.

Anyway call me a moralist, i think tea money is wrong. But i don't deny it can be useful for the people involved.

As a teacher who has to deal with "how the hell did he get into the gifted class?" kids on a daily basis I can tell you that there are few things that hamper learning for other kids more than kids who simply shouldn't be there. In fact it's one of the reasons I'm quitting.

and now everyone loses.......

that's the true price of Tea Money

[StreetCowboy]

i came across this chinese saying about the corruption of the chinese when i was still in china learning chinese.

上梁不正下梁歪

basically it means if the top isnt straight, the bottom would be crooked. i think its a very meaning sentence

and i think reverse of it also tells alot about on how corrupted is one system is. sure corruption and bribery exists everywhere but if one could easily bribe over some trivial matters, imagine the rest

I think the analogy doesn't work.

I can pay a bribe to make a traffic ticket go away, but this doesn't mean that it also works for murder.

So are you saying that one could not buy one's way out of having run over a policeman?

[maturebrit]

It's a question of scale Rene, a little backhander to get you off with a parking ticket is one thing, using compacted plastic bags to set the foundation of a bridge which subsequently collapsed in China is another. Then it's discovered that the firm that built the bridge were unqualified and it was tea money that got them the contract.

We could go round in circles on this, at the end of the day the Rule of Law is best foundation for a fair society, not the Rule of Man, which is invariably underpinned by tea money flowing upwards.

There's many a person came to grief in Thailand due to that.

its pretty much accepted in several countries... Nigeria... India being examples..... my expense sheet had a CODB column.....COST OF DOING BUSINESS.. and its a deductible expense

Sent from my GT-N7000 using Thaivisa Connect Thailand mobile app

[StreetCowboy]

I also consider bribing oneself out of a police incident such as drunk driving or speeding not to be too bad, because traffic safety is a matter of statistics, not a matter of individual or coincidential situations.

But bribes to allow for doing damage to other people's wellbeing or property are evil in nature.

Drunk driving is nto bad because it is a matter of statistics? I am flabbergasted. Drunk driving skews the statistics, and it does allow for doing damage to other people's wellbeing or property.

When I was a volunteer EMT, 100% of all fatal traffic accidents to which I responded were drinking-related even if the people killed were not always the ones drinking and driving.

As Robblok posted before your post, paying a bribe to get out of a drunk driving charge only encourages people to drive drunk. And "statistically," that will lead to someone getting hurt.

I'm surprised you take such shortcuts in (mis)interpreting my post.

Of course drunk driving is bad!

But being able to bribe out doesn't have much negative effects IMO, because firstly the bribe is already a fine, so there is a punishment.

Second, most people don't have enough money to pay such bribes, especially repeatedly.

So on the whole, drunk driving still gets curbed and 2 or 5% bribing their way out will not affect the statistics much.

A couple of hundred baht bribe is not a big disincentive to drink-drive. It's certainly not going to discourage people who are willing to put their own lives at risk, as well as the lives of those around them.

Losing your license and spending some time in the cells is quite a disincentive. As well as the loss of face when one explains to one's friends why one's Merc is up on axle stands in the driveway.

Losing one's license inconveniences those who find a few hundred baht onerous, and equally those for whom a few hundred baht is trivial. Corruption allows the wealthy to ignore the laws that the poor amongst us are expected to abide by

SC

[theblether]

It's a question of scale Rene, a little backhander to get you off with a parking ticket is one thing, using compacted plastic bags to set the foundation of a bridge which subsequently collapsed in China is another. Then it's discovered that the firm that built the bridge were unqualified and it was tea money that got them the contract.

We could go round in circles on this, at the end of the day the Rule of Law is best foundation for a fair society, not the Rule of Man, which is invariably underpinned by tea money flowing upwards.

There's many a person came to grief in Thailand due to that.

its pretty much accepted in several countries... Nigeria... India being examples..... my expense sheet had a CODB column.....COST OF DOING BUSINESS.. and its a deductible expense

Sent from my GT-N7000 using Thaivisa Connect Thailand mobile app

I'm aware of that concept MB, I have also been involved in deals in China that required the same column. We British businessmen are now criminalized for CODB, and the government wonders why our exports are stalling.

[JurgenG]

It's a question of scale Rene, a little backhander to get you off with a parking ticket is one thing, using compacted plastic bags to set the foundation of a bridge which subsequently collapsed in China is another. Then it's discovered that the firm that built the bridge were unqualified and it was tea money that got them the contract.

We could go round in circles on this, at the end of the day the Rule of Law is best foundation for a fair society, not the Rule of Man, which is invariably underpinned by tea money flowing upwards.

There's many a person came to grief in Thailand due to that.

its pretty much accepted in several countries... Nigeria... India being examples..... my expense sheet had a CODB column.....COST OF DOING BUSINESS.. and its a deductible expense

Sent from my GT-N7000 using Thaivisa Connect Thailand mobile app

I'm aware of that concept MB, I have also been involved in deals in China that required the same column. We British businessmen are now criminalized for CODB, and the government wonders why our exports are stalling.

Thank you guys. I'm currently arguing with my accountant about a few bills he is not happy with, I'll suggest him to add a new category, "CODB". I'm not sure He will be ok with it but it's worth a try

[manarak]

I also consider bribing oneself out of a police incident such as drunk driving or speeding not to be too bad, because traffic safety is a matter of statistics, not a matter of individual or coincidential situations.

But bribes to allow for doing damage to other people's wellbeing or property are evil in nature.

Drunk driving is nto bad because it is a matter of statistics? I am flabbergasted. Drunk driving skews the statistics, and it does allow for doing damage to other people's wellbeing or property.

When I was a volunteer EMT, 100% of all fatal traffic accidents to which I responded were drinking-related even if the people killed were not always the ones drinking and driving.

As Robblok posted before your post, paying a bribe to get out of a drunk driving charge only encourages people to drive drunk. And "statistically," that will lead to someone getting hurt.

I'm surprised you take such shortcuts in (mis)interpreting my post.

Of course drunk driving is bad!

But being able to bribe out doesn't have much negative effects IMO, because firstly the bribe is already a fine, so there is a punishment.

Second, most people don't have enough money to pay such bribes, especially repeatedly.

So on the whole, drunk driving still gets curbed and 2 or 5% bribing their way out will not affect the statistics much.

A couple of hundred baht bribe is not a big disincentive to drink-drive. It's certainly not going to discourage people who are willing to put their own lives at risk, as well as the lives of those around them.

Losing your license and spending some time in the cells is quite a disincentive. As well as the loss of face when one explains to one's friends why one's Merc is up on axle stands in the driveway.

Losing one's license inconveniences those who find a few hundred baht onerous, and equally those for whom a few hundred baht is trivial. Corruption allows the wealthy to ignore the laws that the poor amongst us are expected to abide by

SC

555

during the last crackdown on drunk driving, I heard the bribes asked were between 5.000 and 10.000 baht. Those who didn't pay had to spend the night in a cell and were subsequently sentenced to 2400 baht fine and 6 month community work.

I don't know about you, but a 5k hole in my wallet would be more than enough to make me think hard before driving...

[MrRealDeal]

In every system the wealthy can afford to break a number of laws others can not afford to break because they maximum fines mean nothing to them but a lot to others.

[theblether]

It's a question of scale Rene, a little backhander to get you off with a parking ticket is one thing, using compacted plastic bags to set the foundation of a bridge which subsequently collapsed in China is another. Then it's discovered that the firm that built the bridge were unqualified and it was tea money that got them the contract.

We could go round in circles on this, at the end of the day the Rule of Law is best foundation for a fair society, not the Rule of Man, which is invariably underpinned by tea money flowing upwards.

There's many a person came to grief in Thailand due to that.

its pretty much accepted in several countries... Nigeria... India being examples..... my expense sheet had a CODB column.....COST OF DOING BUSINESS.. and its a deductible expense

Sent from my GT-N7000 using Thaivisa Connect Thailand mobile app

I'm aware of that concept MB, I have also been involved in deals in China that required the same column. We British businessmen are now criminalized for CODB, and the government wonders why our exports are stalling.

Thank you guys. I'm currently arguing with my accountant about a few bills he is not happy with, I'll suggest him to add a new category, "CODB". I'm not sure He will be ok with it but it's worth a try

It is worth a try but eh......tell him to not say too mutt.

We Europeans are fighting with both hands tied behind our backs now. Our governments want the results but they'll jail us in a heartbeat for the methods required to get them.

[robblok]

While i am against tea money, as my post states I also understand i can't really escape it here. I try not to participate but admit if i have to find a cops station for paying a fine i prefer to pay the lower price or the same price but get it done at the spot. Usually i would not know where the cops station is when im on the bike.

[bigbamboo]

If it wasn't for tea money there would be no policemen in Thailand.

Good or bad?