Juristic Dillemma

[deadman]

Hi there

When i bought my condo a few years ago i was under the impression i could park 2 cars there. Now they a telling me i need to pay 1000B per month to park my wifes car there. Does anyone know anything about juristic rules/law?

I assume there should be some document that details what is and is not allowed in the condo. If the complex suddenly wants tenants to pay for a second car, should this to added to the condo rules/laws? or would there need to be a tenant meeting and the idea voted on in order to be passed and implemented?

any help appreciated

cheers

DM

[jomtienfun]

Normally I think they can not do that.

Unless it was voted by the co-owners at an agm and then I have still doubts about it

If there is nothing from paying fees for tenants when they use common area in the basic act from your condo a total from like 50% from all co-owners must be present at an agm if not they can not change the basic act

They can do reserve special space for co-owners and separate for visitors

We have this at our place and provide stickers but then office people give them also to long stay tenants. . . .

[givenall]

You may only have one parking spot, like me and just because you used to park 2 does not mean you were doing it legally

[Delight]

I suggest that you read the rules of your condo.

If the rules specify that the committee can introduce car park charging schemes to suit the changing circumstances of the condo-then you will have to pay.

If the committee has no desire to change the rules (or if no rules exist ) and you feel a change is warranted then a co –owners meeting can be organized(by you).

This approach is probably over the top since you will need fellow co –owners , whose voting allocation is 20% of total building vote ,to support you.

The Condo Act says in relation to changing Condo rules:

Any corrections or additions of the registered rules shall be complete only after it has been resolved by the general meeting of co-owners and must be submitted by the juristic person manager to the competent officer for registration within 30 days from the date of resolution.

Should the competent officer consider that such correction or addition of the rules is not against the laws, the officer shall accept the correction or addition for registration.

Therefore a simple majority vote(in your favor) at a legally convened general meeting (arising from your co –owners meeting ) would bring about change.

Probably simpler to just pay.

[Khun Jean]

It is one of those ways to buy yourself some extra luxury while using someone elses parking spot.

Read the rules, they are public. I suspect the 1000 baht for a second car rule is not there but a way for the 'guard' to make some extra money.

I would suggest that in the next meeting you bring up the topic of replacing the 'guard'.

[Rancid]

As evertone says check the condo rules, does sound suspiciosly like a money maker for someone in management though.

[smutcakes]

OP, what does your Sales & Purchase agreement say? Many sales staff will just say what you want to hear so they can make a sale as they don't really have any dealings with future management of the situation and the hassle it can cause. Have you got separate parking spaces in your title deeds or do you just have an allocated space in the common area?

In most condominium's it would be unusual for any one bed unit to have more than a space. Developers typically try and do as little parking as possible so to comply with legal requirements, as all the rest of the space can be sold.

It sounds like here that the management are acting as a go between from another unit owner who does not use their space and they have made it known to the management that they are willing to rent it out for 1K per month.

It is not easy to change and in Thailand it is one of these subjects that raises problems as the people with spaces they are happy with, will never even entertain voting on something that could potentially effect their space/s. Also a lot of farangs who are generally more pro-active in trying to sought out problems seem to be a little more apathetic about parking whereas the Thai's are unbelievably anal about it.

[trogers]

I wonder if the title of this post should be renamed as "Dilemma for the Juristic".

I imagine a condo building comprising mainly of studio and 1-bedroom units with areas from 33-50 sqm.

If each unit should be allocated with 2 carpark lots, the total constructed area of the carpark will be more than the total area of the room units...

One parking lot requires about 25 sqm of constructed space.

Edited January 23, 2013 by trogers

[smutcakes]

I wonder if the title of this post should be renamed as "Dilemma for the Juristic".

I imagine a condo building comprising mainly of studio and 1-bedroom units with areas from 33-50 sqm.

If each unit should be allocated with 2 carpark lots, the total constructed area of the carpark will be more than the total area of the room units...

One parking lot requires about 25 sqm of constructed space.

Maybe in Pattaya, but not in Bangkok, although some of the newer developments seem to be going more this way.

[Delight]

I wonder if the title of this post should be renamed as "Dilemma for the Juristic".

I imagine a condo building comprising mainly of studio and 1-bedroom units with areas from 33-50 sqm.

If each unit should be allocated with 2 carpark lots, the total constructed area of the carpark will be more than the total area of the room units...

One parking lot requires about 25 sqm of constructed space.

The concept of 'allocated car park lots 'is new to me.

Do these 'lots' feature on the individual chanotes?

If not -then who carries out the allocation process?

[Khun Jean]

It is one of those condo dilemmas. More people buy cars, sharing of the few parking spaces will become difficult, arguments will arise, no compromise will be reached as everyone will think that they have more rights then the other.

In the last 2 years in my small condominium building there were always 4-5 places empty, now guards are putting cars in front of others that they have to push around and cars in front of the entry. Still not enough.

I i want to be able to park my car i can only use it in daytime when most are working and have to be back before their work is finished. This means weekend and evenings you don't go by car because you will be unable to park it when coming home. I not use the car at those times as public transport suits me fine. It is bothersome when going away for a weekend, i try to get back on a Monday morning in those cases.

Will there be a vote in the future that people who 'need' cars have more rights then other people as the only solution left.

I guess that moment will come.

[beano2274]

In my Condo it is one room one car parking space. However, if you own one of the designated big rooms then you get a VIP Parking space, whereas everyone else fights for the parking spaces.

The Condo also got new car passes and passed a rule that if a car did not display a car pass then the owner would be fined and the car clamped, however the security are too scared of some of the owners to actually do it, so the other day I had to park on the main road near my condo (and I have two rooms, but only one car).

Edited January 23, 2013 by beano2274

[Delight]

In my Condo it is one room one car parking space. However, if you own one of the designated big rooms then you get a VIP Parking space, whereas everyone else fights for the parking spaces.

I would suggest that the VIP parking space arrangement is illegal -unless this arrangement was agreed by 50% of the vote . A 50% vote is required to :

Section 48 (4) an amendment of the rules in connection with the use of management of the common property;

Also in relation to the original O.P. question -I also now think that charging 1000 baht is also illegal unless a 50% vote was achieved to agree it .

Section 48 (7) a management of common property that provides benefits from use, (for example, the lease of common property)

If ,of course ,the individual parking space is featured on the individual chanote -then non of the foregoing applies

[DiNiro]

A copy of the deed should be in the condo office and it will show the parking space for that unit. Some units may have more then one space.

Sometimes the building will have spare parking spaces & developer may offer an extra parking space to a potential buyer.

Should be in writing and attached to the units paperwork.

[Delight]

A copy of the deed should be in the condo office and it will show the parking space for that unit. Some units may have more then one space.

Sometimes the building will have spare parking spaces & developer may offer an extra parking space to a potential buyer.

Should be in writing and attached to the units paperwork.

If I were buying a condo complete with a personal parking area then that area would have to feature on the chanote and nobody else could use it.

The fact that I do not have a car would be irrelevant.

Is there anybody out there who can confirm that the arrangement ,as described by DiNiro ,is a practical proposition?

[smutcakes]

A copy of the deed should be in the condo office and it will show the parking space for that unit. Some units may have more then one space.

Sometimes the building will have spare parking spaces & developer may offer an extra parking space to a potential buyer.

Should be in writing and attached to the units paperwork.

If I were buying a condo complete with a personal parking area then that area would have to feature on the chanote and nobody else could use it.

The fact that I do not have a car would be irrelevant.

Is there anybody out there who can confirm that the arrangement ,as described by DiNiro ,is a practical proposition?

I think DiNiro is probably referring to pre registration of the Juristic. Once the building is registered legally the developer has no right to simply allocate spaces unless they have private spaces not allocated to any units which can be sold or transferred to the owner. I believe there are 3 ways parking is done in Thailand:

1) Spaces are registered private space and each unit owner has the chanote for that space and pays maintenance on it, often a token rate. This IMO is the best option for bother developer and owner as there is no ambiguity over it and it simply cannot be changed and personally i would never buy in a condominium without this.

2) The parking is common area, but each unit has fixed allocated spaces when registration documents are submitted to the LD for registration. The number of spaces, and allocation of where they are will be done when purchasing and SHOULD be written into your SPA agreement with the developer. It is possible to amend allocations by resolution of an General Meeting with not less than one half of the total votes, but this is a real ball ache both to get the votes, and also to submit amended title plans to the LD. Most people within buildings would find the easier way is to negotiate with other people who are willing to make an informal agreement to swap spaces, or use other persons spaces for free or a nominal rent if both parties agree.

3) The last way is as predominantly in Pattaya where the parking is all completely free and on a first come first served basis. This is fine at the moment, but i suspect as the number of cars on the roads ever increases then it will become a problem, but developers at present seem uninterested in looking more at options 1 & 2. The main problem you have with this system, is that some people think its their divine right to park every time close to the exit of the parking area. If they cannot get their preferred space they end up parking in disabled spaces or the drop off area!

I would advise when purchasing a condo to look at option 1, and if you get in early enough you may be able to negotiate which spaces you want. Be warned though that the developer will normally hold the best spaces for the premium unit buyers.

[trogers]

A copy of the deed should be in the condo office and it will show the parking space for that unit. Some units may have more then one space.

Sometimes the building will have spare parking spaces & developer may offer an extra parking space to a potential buyer.

Should be in writing and attached to the units paperwork.

If I were buying a condo complete with a personal parking area then that area would have to feature on the chanote and nobody else could use it.

The fact that I do not have a car would be irrelevant.

Is there anybody out there who can confirm that the arrangement ,as described by DiNiro ,is a practical proposition?

I think DiNiro is probably referring to pre registration of the Juristic. Once the building is registered legally the developer has no right to simply allocate spaces unless they have private spaces not allocated to any units which can be sold or transferred to the owner. I believe there are 3 ways parking is done in Thailand:

1) Spaces are registered private space and each unit owner has the chanote for that space and pays maintenance on it, often a token rate. This IMO is the best option for bother developer and owner as there is no ambiguity over it and it simply cannot be changed and personally i would never buy in a condominium without this.

2) The parking is common area, but each unit has fixed allocated spaces when registration documents are submitted to the LD for registration. The number of spaces, and allocation of where they are will be done when purchasing and SHOULD be written into your SPA agreement with the developer. It is possible to amend allocations by resolution of an General Meeting with not less than one half of the total votes, but this is a real ball ache both to get the votes, and also to submit amended title plans to the LD. Most people within buildings would find the easier way is to negotiate with other people who are willing to make an informal agreement to swap spaces, or use other persons spaces for free or a nominal rent if both parties agree.

3) The last way is as predominantly in Pattaya where the parking is all completely free and on a first come first served basis. This is fine at the moment, but i suspect as the number of cars on the roads ever increases then it will become a problem, but developers at present seem uninterested in looking more at options 1 & 2. The main problem you have with this system, is that some people think its their divine right to park every time close to the exit of the parking area. If they cannot get their preferred space they end up parking in disabled spaces or the drop off area!

I would advise when purchasing a condo to look at option 1, and if you get in early enough you may be able to negotiate which spaces you want. Be warned though that the developer will normally hold the best spaces for the premium unit buyers.

Option 1 and 2 can only work if the number of parking lots were built equal to more than the number of condo units. How many condo projects have this provision? Building code specifies a min. ratio to total room areas, and this ratio is very inadequate for projects with many small units.

[smutcakes]

A copy of the deed should be in the condo office and it will show the parking space for that unit. Some units may have more then one space.

Sometimes the building will have spare parking spaces & developer may offer an extra parking space to a potential buyer.

Should be in writing and attached to the units paperwork.

If I were buying a condo complete with a personal parking area then that area would have to feature on the chanote and nobody else could use it.

The fact that I do not have a car would be irrelevant.

Is there anybody out there who can confirm that the arrangement ,as described by DiNiro ,is a practical proposition?

I think DiNiro is probably referring to pre registration of the Juristic. Once the building is registered legally the developer has no right to simply allocate spaces unless they have private spaces not allocated to any units which can be sold or transferred to the owner. I believe there are 3 ways parking is done in Thailand:

1) Spaces are registered private space and each unit owner has the chanote for that space and pays maintenance on it, often a token rate. This IMO is the best option for bother developer and owner as there is no ambiguity over it and it simply cannot be changed and personally i would never buy in a condominium without this.

2) The parking is common area, but each unit has fixed allocated spaces when registration documents are submitted to the LD for registration. The number of spaces, and allocation of where they are will be done when purchasing and SHOULD be written into your SPA agreement with the developer. It is possible to amend allocations by resolution of an General Meeting with not less than one half of the total votes, but this is a real ball ache both to get the votes, and also to submit amended title plans to the LD. Most people within buildings would find the easier way is to negotiate with other people who are willing to make an informal agreement to swap spaces, or use other persons spaces for free or a nominal rent if both parties agree.

3) The last way is as predominantly in Pattaya where the parking is all completely free and on a first come first served basis. This is fine at the moment, but i suspect as the number of cars on the roads ever increases then it will become a problem, but developers at present seem uninterested in looking more at options 1 & 2. The main problem you have with this system, is that some people think its their divine right to park every time close to the exit of the parking area. If they cannot get their preferred space they end up parking in disabled spaces or the drop off area!

I would advise when purchasing a condo to look at option 1, and if you get in early enough you may be able to negotiate which spaces you want. Be warned though that the developer will normally hold the best spaces for the premium unit buyers.

Option 1 and 2 can only work if the number of parking lots were built equal to more than the number of condo units. How many condo projects have this provision? Building code specifies a min. ratio to total room areas, and this ratio is very inadequate for projects with many small units.

In Pattaya not many, but in Bangkok most i would say, especially the higher end ones. In the ones that don't have enough spaces, it is normal that depending on the unit size (normally the smallest) you may not get a fixed space but there would be a small number of spaces which are not fixed, which you can park in on a first come first served basis. This is something you have to negotiate on/deal with when you first look at purchasing the unit- i.e how much does having a fixed space mean to you? If you are really bothered about it, you have to pay more (ie upgrade unit which has a fixed space), if you are not bothered and dont have a car, you dont.

[Delight]

My thanks to DiNiro and Smutcakes for throwing some light on this topic .

However ,one element of Smutcakes comprehensive answer confused me somewhat.

With respect to scenario 1) .

1. Spaces are registered private space and each unit owner has the chanote for that space and pays maintenance on it, often a token rate. This IMO is the best option for bother developer and owner as there is no ambiguity over it and it simply cannot be changed
   

Given that the chanotes referred to are not housing units –then the only option that I can see is that they are chanotes for land. Does this become difficult for foreigners –who legally cannot own land?

Or is there some 3^rd option?