Many Poor Will Stay Poor No Matter What Government Does

[lemoncake]

Could not help myself thinking and decided to post.

Will try to make it as short as possible.

My hotel has been using same laundry for linen and guest laundry for past year or so.

When i started to use that laundry it was run by a female, and her brother was doing all the pick ups/drop offs.

Since i started i watched them grow like crazy, ie many business customers.

They did not employ anyone extra but kept working same way.

Few months later, the female( i guess the sister), decided that she was tired and left over night to go

back to village.

Brother became the boss and continued with the business and business continued to grow.

Few months after that, the brother decided to go back to village as he missed his GF.

Now the Aunt took over with her 2 sons, mind you business kept growing.

After a few months, one of the sons left back to village as he was too tired and bored.

So now the aunt and one son are running laundry servicing 10 or so hotels, plus all the guests laundry and

just customers off the street.

Aunt now, no longer wants to run the business or employ anyone and simply closed down.

Did not try to sell or employ or do anything really, just closed down business bringing in few hundred

thousand baht per month and went back to village to do nothing.

The point of the thread is, while no doubt same or similar things happen in the West, many poor will always

be poor because they simply do not want to work.

Those who do work hard, do not stay poor and move up to middle class.

Many will argue that farmers can not make it out of poverty, well here is an example of farmers not only

making out of poverty but starting to turn few hundred thousand baht per month, only to dump it all because

"tired" "bored" "lazy" "miss gf"

The somtam and fruit sellers are also from poor family's but those who spend days on the move, hassling,

always make a nice living(though they do not dress or appear to be doing well) in my soi have 3 houses owned by different food sellers and all houses are worth around 3 million baht.

Now the government has raised the minimum wage, only how is this going to help when so many jump from job

to job or take 10 months holidays because too tired from working for 2 months?

All people i employed or employ for over a year, meaning they been working for long time with me, are no

longer considered poor in my opinion, as they all managed to buy a new bike, live in a decent room, have

nice phone and other nice things.

Many more that have gone "though my hands" with 1 month employment(if that) when see them around, still have nothing and will always have nothing.

Anyhow end of rant , thoughts are welcome

Edited January 21, 2013 by lemoncake

[jamescollister]

OP remember much of Thailand still lives pre industrial revolution. Things are changing fast, but people own their own homes [maybe huts ] but no mortgage or rent to pay. They can live off the rice from small farms, no tax. eat frogs, bugs and keep a few chickens, maybe a pig or 2. They will not go hungry. This is how they have lived for 100s years.

No different from the west a few 100 years ago.

Soon they may have to give up this freedom, to join into the western consumer society, but until then many will find life easy by just doing their 3 months a year work growing rice or cassava or what ever.

I live in the out lands and no one goes hungry, they have a home and live, food to eat and no expectations. Jim

[crazygreg44]

many from the farmlands are being brought up this way. As children, they have to help with nothing. In school, they have to do nothing. When they are old enough to work, they still do nothing. The onlt time in the year when they work is the bringing out of rice and later the harvest of the rice. That is done in two months out of 12. In the rest of the year's time, they still do nothing. They do not even clean their front yard, but sleep and eat in it. While the trash piles up, they still do nothing.

.. did you say you were ranting? I tried hard not to follow in your steps. This is my mellowed-down version of the reality.

[lemoncake]

OP remember much of Thailand still lives pre industrial revolution. Things are changing fast, but people own their own homes [maybe huts ] but no mortgage or rent to pay. They can live off the rice from small farms, no tax. eat frogs, bugs and keep a few chickens, maybe a pig or 2. They will not go hungry. This is how they have lived for 100s years.

No different from the west a few 100 years ago.

Soon they may have to give up this freedom, to join into the western consumer society, but until then many will find life easy by just doing their 3 months a year work growing rice or cassava or what ever.

I live in the out lands and no one goes hungry, they have a home and live, food to eat and no expectations. Jim

If i understand you correct, what you saying is the poor are happy to be poor? and the whole 300 baht minimum wage is a waste of time because they already have enough money?

sorry not trying to be funny, just trying to understand.

[PTG]

Why didn't they employ some staff, any blind Freddie could see they needed that. There must be more to this story that we don't know about I would think.

[SPG]

When one sheep leads the way all the rest follow.

[lemoncake]

many from the farmlands are being brought up this way. As children, they have to help with nothing. In school, they have to do nothing. When they are old enough to work, they still do nothing. The onlt time in the year when they work is the bringing out of rice and later the harvest of the rice. That is done in two months out of 12. In the rest of the year's time, they still do nothing. They do not even clean their front yard, but sleep and eat in it. While the trash piles up, they still do nothing.

.. did you say you were ranting? I tried hard not to follow in your steps. This is my mellowed-down version of the reality.

for the life of me, i can not understand how one can walk away from a successful business because he/she is tired, i mean not even try to sell it

[lemoncake]

Why didn't they employ some staff, any blind Freddie could see they needed that. There must be more to this story that we don't know about I would think.

i believe its a million dollar question.

i guess for the same reason, why the brother chose to give up the business to go back to village to be with his gf, instead of bringing her over

Edited January 21, 2013 by lemoncake

[rene123]

I know a local laundry that has grown quite large since it began about 6 years ago, but the Thai woman has trouble keeping enough staff to handle all the work.

[jamescollister]

OP remember much of Thailand still lives pre industrial revolution. Things are changing fast, but people own their own homes [maybe huts ] but no mortgage or rent to pay. They can live off the rice from small farms, no tax. eat frogs, bugs and keep a few chickens, maybe a pig or 2. They will not go hungry. This is how they have lived for 100s years.

No different from the west a few 100 years ago.

Soon they may have to give up this freedom, to join into the western consumer society, but until then many will find life easy by just doing their 3 months a year work growing rice or cassava or what ever.

I live in the out lands and no one goes hungry, they have a home and live, food to eat and no expectations. Jim

If i understand you correct, what you saying is the poor are happy to be poor? and the whole 300 baht minimum wage is a waste of time because they already have enough money?

sorry not trying to be funny, just trying to understand.

As I have siad in aother threat. If I could employ people out here for 300 Baht a day I would be not only happy, but much richer. Just sold some rubber today, output is down as we grow to the dormant period. Husband and wife team pocketed 11,000 Baht for 4 days work and I can't get workers. Jim

[lemoncake]

I know a local laundry that has grown quite large since it began about 6 years ago, but the Thai woman has trouble keeping enough staff to handle all the work.

thats common, was turned away by a shop because she did not have enough staff to handle even a current load, so downsizing makes sense, going out of business does not.

with my original post, they could all work the business and have enough money to go around the whole family.

sister, brother, gf, aunt, 2 sons and sky is the limit

[jbrain]

Why didn't they employ some staff, any blind Freddie could see they needed that. There must be more to this story that we don't know about I would think.

i believe its a million dollar question.

i guess for the same reason, why the brother chose to give up the business to go back to village to be with his gf, instead of bringing her over

Ever considered that maybe it didn't bring the by you projected hundreds of thousand Baht each month ?

[lemoncake]

Why didn't they employ some staff, any blind Freddie could see they needed that. There must be more to this story that we don't know about I would think.

i believe its a million dollar question.

i guess for the same reason, why the brother chose to give up the business to go back to village to be with his gf, instead of bringing her over

Ever considered that maybe it didn't bring the by you projected hundreds of thousand Baht each month ?

Ohhh always one in the crowd

i would have considered it if i did not see the invoicing books and amount of dirty laundry every day in the back of a car.

my bills alone were over 20 000 baht per month, multiply it by 10 hotels NOT including walk in customers and you already have 200K

[JeffreyMcCollum]

wow they are not poor, they have a rented room and motorbike.

Thai is living large, what a good man you are

[lemoncake]

wow they are not poor, they have a rented room and motorbike.

Thai is living large, what a good man you are

well DOH! how many minimum wage earner's do you know riding new bikes and living in a nice room , especially after having worked over a year and being young?

perhaps time to come back down to earth?

[JDGRUEN]

Why didn't they employ some staff, any blind Freddie could see they needed that. There must be more to this story that we don't know about I would think.

With or without a minimum wage to add extra business baggage ... small scale self-employment (anywhere) can be a trap. As in this case with the laundry, the owner made a good wage after a while - but had to work long long hours to keep in business... Relatives came and went - but over a fairly long stay. Likely some of the relatives' pay was room and board - sharing cost of food, rent etc. When a self-employed business owner begins to hire more non relative employees, the owner becomes a Human Resource Manager with all the headaches and distractions from daily operations. Regular employees have less loyalty than relatives and do not benefit by getting room and board. Unless modern business practices come to play - with things like lines of credit bank loans, formal employer/employee relations (benefits - holidays,etc.), the business cannot grow. Unless one is trained in modern business practices and is willing to undertake the risks and headaches ... a self-employed business person comes to a point where they must change business practices or go back home with whatever they had been able to save ... What the business owner could have saved over the years or land purchases back home - may have been a lot of Baht (relative to life style) in the case OP cites. Bottom line - many small business owners know how to do the core of the business and may do it well - but they do not know how to grow a business or even want to. Why this business was not sold and sold for a profit is a good question. Perhaps it was just lack of sophistication or perhaps it was not wanting to produce a set of books for a buyer to examine that could become an issue with the TAX MAN. Who knows?

Edited January 21, 2013 by JDGRUEN

[lemoncake]

Why didn't they employ some staff, any blind Freddie could see they needed that. There must be more to this story that we don't know about I would think.

With or without a minimum wage to add extra business baggage ... small scale self-employment (anywhere) can be a trap. As in this case with the laundry the owner made a good wage after a while - but had to work long long hours to keep in business... Relatives came and went - but over a fairly long time. Likely some of the relatives' pay was room and board - sharing cost of food, rent etc. When a self-employed business owner begins to hire more non relative employees, the owner becomes a Human Resource Manager with all the headaches and distraction from daily operations. Regular employees have less loyalty than relatives and do not benefit by getting room and board. Unless modern business practices come to play - with things like lines of credit bank loans, formal employer/employee relations (benefits - holidays),etc., the business cannot grow. Unless one is trained in modern business practices and is willing to undertake the risks and headaches ... then a self-employed business person comes to a point where they must change business practices or go back home with whatever they had been able to save ... What the business owner could have saved may have been a lot of Baht in the case OP cites. Bottom line - many small business owners know how to do the core of the business and may do it well - but they do not know how to grow a business or even want to. Why this business was not sold and sold for a profit is a good question. Perhaps it was just lack of sophistication or perhaps it was not wanting to produce a set of books for a buyer to examine that could become an issue with the TAX MAN. Who knows?

very very valid points. i did ask the aunt why she does not try to sell and response was rather incoherent but along the lines that it was more work trying to sell so chose to close down.

though i still believe with little effort they could have found someone to take over even for FREE instead of shutting down and leaving it all.

they could have approached other shops and offer the clients or just offer the shop along with clients for a small fee, so i still believe its just laziness, as none of the "retired" family members went back to other work, they just went back to doing nothing.

No doubt with each one going home, the one taking over was expected to support all the ones in the village

[jbrain]

Why didn't they employ some staff, any blind Freddie could see they needed that. There must be more to this story that we don't know about I would think.

i believe its a million dollar question.

i guess for the same reason, why the brother chose to give up the business to go back to village to be with his gf, instead of bringing her over

Ever considered that maybe it didn't bring the by you projected hundreds of thousand Baht each month ?

Ohhh always one in the crowd

i would have considered it if i did not see the invoicing books and amount of dirty laundry every day in the back of a car.

my bills alone were over 20 000 baht per month, multiply it by 10 hotels NOT including walk in customers and you already have 200K

So revenue is the same as profit in your book?

Their washing machines, detergents, rent , electricity, water, labour, all for free ?

And then we didn't talk yet about possible tea money, taxes ..............

Do you really think that all this people would simply walk away from a hundred thousand a month ?

Hey, there is an opportunity for you, start a laundry asap as there is a market opening for free and earn an extra few hundred thousand a month in a snap.

Edited January 21, 2013 by jbrain

[Falcon01]

I tend to agree with you that some people lack a motivated work ethic and " get tired" to fast! I see it both in Thailand and the USA.

[rookball]

whats amazing are those who are poor, yet refuse any form of work and breed faster than the soi dogs. this situation isnt just unique over here but lots of other places.

makes one wonder what on earth are they thinking, or rather are they even thinking?

Edited January 21, 2013 by rookball

[krisb]

Heres the reason why again,

One day a fisherman was lying on a beautiful beach, with his fishing pole propped up in the sand and his solitary line cast out into the sparkling blue surf. He was enjoying the warmth of the afternoon sun and the prospect of catching a fish.

About that time, a businessman came walking down the beach, trying to relieve some of the stress of his workday. He noticed the fisherman sitting on the beach and decided to find out why this fisherman was fishing instead of working harder to make a living for himself and his family.

"You aren't going to catch many fish that way," said the businessman to the fisherman, "you should be working rather than lying on the beach!"

The fisherman looked up at the businessman, smiled and replied, "And what will my reward be?"

"Well, you can get bigger nets and catch more fish!" was the businessman's answer.

"And then what will my reward be?" asked the fisherman, still smiling.

The businessman replied, "You will make money and you'll be able to buy a boat, which will then result in larger catches of fish!"

"And then what will my reward be?" asked the fisherman again.

The businessman was beginning to get a little irritated with the fisherman's questions. "You can buy a bigger boat, and hire some people to work for you!" he said.

"And then what will my reward be?" repeated the fisherman.

The businessman was getting angry. "Don't you understand? You can build up a fleet of fishing boats, sail all over the world, and let all your employees catch fish for you!"

Once again the fisherman asked, "And then what will my reward be?"

The businessman was red with rage and shouted at the fisherman, "Don't you understand that you can become so rich that you will never have to work for your living again! You can spend all the rest of your days sitting on this beach, looking at the sunset. You won't have a care in the world!"

The fisherman, still smiling, looked up and said, "And what do you think I'm doing right now?"

Edited January 21, 2013 by krisb

[Falcon01]

whats amazing are those who are poor, yet refuse any form of work and breed faster than the soi dogs. this situation isnt just unique over here but lots of other places.

makes one wonder what on earth are they thinking, or rather are they even thinking?

Unfortunately, they are thinking of sending the female children off to Bangkok to earn money!

[Dancealot]

OP remember much of Thailand still lives pre industrial revolution. Things are changing fast, but people own their own homes [maybe huts ] but no mortgage or rent to pay. They can live off the rice from small farms, no tax. eat frogs, bugs and keep a few chickens, maybe a pig or 2. They will not go hungry. This is how they have lived for 100s years.

No different from the west a few 100 years ago.

Soon they may have to give up this freedom, to join into the western consumer society, but until then many will find life easy by just doing their 3 months a year work growing rice or cassava or what ever.

I live in the out lands and no one goes hungry, they have a home and live, food to eat and no expectations. Jim

If i understand you correct, what you saying is the poor are happy to be poor? and the whole 300 baht minimum wage is a waste of time because they already have enough money?

Edit, they are not happy to be poor but they are happy with the things they have.

Spot on! Lemon.

Edited January 21, 2013 by Dancealot

[endure]

Heres the reason why again,

One day a fisherman was lying on a beautiful beach, with his fishing pole propped up in the sand and his solitary line cast out into the sparkling blue surf. He was enjoying the warmth of the afternoon sun and the prospect of catching a fish.

About that time, a businessman came walking down the beach, trying to relieve some of the stress of his workday. He noticed the fisherman sitting on the beach and decided to find out why this fisherman was fishing instead of working harder to make a living for himself and his family.

"You aren't going to catch many fish that way," said the businessman to the fisherman, "you should be working rather than lying on the beach!"

The fisherman looked up at the businessman, smiled and replied, "And what will my reward be?"

"Well, you can get bigger nets and catch more fish!" was the businessman's answer.

"And then what will my reward be?" asked the fisherman, still smiling.

The businessman replied, "You will make money and you'll be able to buy a boat, which will then result in larger catches of fish!"

"And then what will my reward be?" asked the fisherman again.

The businessman was beginning to get a little irritated with the fisherman's questions. "You can buy a bigger boat, and hire some people to work for you!" he said.

"And then what will my reward be?" repeated the fisherman.

The businessman was getting angry. "Don't you understand? You can build up a fleet of fishing boats, sail all over the world, and let all your employees catch fish for you!"

Once again the fisherman asked, "And then what will my reward be?"

The businessman was red with rage and shouted at the fisherman, "Don't you understand that you can become so rich that you will never have to work for your living again! You can spend all the rest of your days sitting on this beach, looking at the sunset. You won't have a care in the world!"

The fisherman, still smiling, looked up and said, "And what do you think I'm doing right now?"

Whenever someone starts ranting about how lazy Thais are I always think of this story.

[Dancealot]

Heres the reason why again,

One day a fisherman was lying on a beautiful beach, with his fishing pole propped up in the sand and his solitary line cast out into the sparkling blue surf. He was enjoying the warmth of the afternoon sun and the prospect of catching a fish.

About that time, a businessman came walking down the beach, trying to relieve some of the stress of his workday. He noticed the fisherman sitting on the beach and decided to find out why this fisherman was fishing instead of working harder to make a living for himself and his family.

"You aren't going to catch many fish that way," said the businessman to the fisherman, "you should be working rather than lying on the beach!"

The fisherman looked up at the businessman, smiled and replied, "And what will my reward be?"

"Well, you can get bigger nets and catch more fish!" was the businessman's answer.

"And then what will my reward be?" asked the fisherman, still smiling.

The businessman replied, "You will make money and you'll be able to buy a boat, which will then result in larger catches of fish!"

"And then what will my reward be?" asked the fisherman again.

The businessman was beginning to get a little irritated with the fisherman's questions. "You can buy a bigger boat, and hire some people to work for you!" he said.

"And then what will my reward be?" repeated the fisherman.

The businessman was getting angry. "Don't you understand? You can build up a fleet of fishing boats, sail all over the world, and let all your employees catch fish for you!"

Once again the fisherman asked, "And then what will my reward be?"

The businessman was red with rage and shouted at the fisherman, "Don't you understand that you can become so rich that you will never have to work for your living again! You can spend all the rest of your days sitting on this beach, looking at the sunset. You won't have a care in the world!"

The fisherman, still smiling, looked up and said, "And what do you think I'm doing right now?"

This is poetry at its purest to me. Direct and subjective at the same time.

Edited January 21, 2013 by Dancealot

[GuestHouse]

If a someone sets their own personal horizon at the next bowl of rice (and if they happen to be eating rice at the time then they set their horizon at that particular bowl of rice) happy in the knowledge that there will be rice tomorrow - who's to say they are not right, not happy, or lazy?

There are however two problems that deserve comment.

The first is a habit of securing that next bowl of rice on the labour of others, often that of their children and too often that of their daughters.

The second relates to the OP's question and the Government's role in all this.

This government has toted popularist policies of free and easy money (see living off the labours of others above). But more than that, this government have reasserted the idea that the poor must wait for the largesse of the government, of the big name, the powerful person who will look after them - they need do nothing for themselves it is their place to be looked after when needs become desperate. A personal choice to have one's horizon set on your next bowl of rice is perhaps actually a long schooling of understanding where individual horizons should be set.

It's easy to blame the government for this, the rewards they themselves reap are secure power and the adulation of the poor.

But the government did not invent the dance, the music was already playing, they simply performed a very slick 'gentlemen's excuse me'.

Edited January 21, 2013 by GuestHouse

[loong]

Lemoncake,

From what you say, there were 5 people working there when the business started and that was before the customer base grew.

I imagine that in the early days there was simply not enough income to pay 5 people's wages, so possibly the first 2 left because of this.

To handle the recent high volume of work, I would think that they have had to buy big expensive washing machines and electric driers, probably on credit or maybe lease.

Often when the landlord sees that his tenants have a thriving business, up goes the rent.

Many people don't understand that business and personal money should be kept separate and they will spend more than they realise. Without proper book-keeping they have no idea how much profit they are making. When the electricity, water, and rent is due, it is always a shock and they have to scrabble around to find the money.

Probably now, with only 2 people working and the high volume of work, they are getting behind and maybe have other hotels threatening to take their business elsewhere.

When people have no idea how to run a business, they mess it up and in the end can't be bothered anymore.

You yourself know how difficult it is to get reliable staff that you can trust to turn up for work everyday and on time.

Selling a business is not so easy. Usually plenty of buyers, but with no money.

[crazygreg44]

wow they are not poor, they have a rented room and motorbike.

Thai is living large, what a good man you are

You forget, the motobike is not fully paid for ! They ASSUME they can pay for it, but sometimes forget that filling fuel also costs extra. There is little planning, and when the wind starts blowing in their faces, they give up

[qdinthailand]

The OP equates working hard, making lots of money, as being the path to happiness.

Perhaps many Thais (and others) would disagree with this thinking.

[canuckamuck]

I don't know what village the OP is talking about, but people are always working in my village (OK maybe a different pace then the western, live to work standard). And some of the better off families are doing ok.

I think the OP is projecting an awful lot of imagination into the situation.

But I do agree that the poor will be with us always.

Edited January 22, 2013 by canuckamuck