Many Poor Will Stay Poor No Matter What Government Does

[krisb]

IMO the thais are just contented as long as they have enough to survive. No ambition, no dreams. Those who are stagnant, will always get stuck in the mud. There's a common saying by the chinese community in Thailand, but it will be considered racist remark so I will just keep mum...

Your whole post sucks. Start to finish it sucks.

[krisb]

Best description Ive heard to describe Thais in the villages is they are the original hippies.

[lemoncake]

im a kibbutznik, on a kibbutz that, while not entirely like the old days, and like five or six other kibbutzim in the negev, we are still dinosaurs...

and yes, there are those that always always get away with doing nothing, and there are the parasites, but as i ahve said countless times , lving in a thai village and living on a kibbutz are very similar in that only those that really lvie there know what goes on under the outer layers, and peer pressure and status are worth more then all the money in the world.

my husband btw, korat small dinky village, cannot stand kibbutz. he lives with me but is not a kibbutznik and wouldnt do it if u paid him a million dollars. we go thru visa procedures every year here, adn people wonder why he stays, its not for the visa or the house or hte money cause he could earn three times what he earns here in jerusalem, in tel aviv and live illagally w/o a visa, no problem. ... he is perfectly fine with second hand clothes, waits to fix stuff when it starts to fall apart, hates going out, dining out or buying anything except for boy toys: new improved phone, friday night with the boys, some legal and not so legal lotteries (we put it in our budget. i buy animal stuff, he buys lottery, works out to about the same wastes of money.) he has his own side line of washing machine rent/fix for the thai workers, it coudl make tons of money, but, it worked well when a brother was handlign the money collecting and day to day aspects and hubby was the fixer. the brother went back home (visa finished) and he tried with a 'friend' . as everyone knows, family is better then friends when thais want to trust someone... so little by little the business has slowed, hubby is less active in finding fix it jobs and the 'friend' is less active in finding new clinets, we have to pay him cash as opposed to some cash and help in other ways liek with the brother, so hubby is sick and tired of it, so... slacked off... he prefers a few machines asns some sporadic side work rather then hard work, headaches, management problems, and lots of money...

kibbutzniks btw, have an extremely high work ethic to the point of obsessiveness. it is hard for us to not work. i am a hotel receptionist now, but i dont work jsut my hours.as i am a kibbutznik, i am also an owner of the business, so i often put i extra hours in high season although we dont get paid, i have a zillion vacation hours coming to me that get thrown out every year)...

many country thais really really dont like the headaches involved with managing businesses. they like to do their thing and go home. work is a neccesity, not a way of life. way of life has priority over work. with that attitude they are always looking for short work times, with high payment which is why yaabaa is such good business, and lottery is so appealing. those in the west with the protestant work ethic find that disturbing. for us, work is life. here on kibbutz even working in a hotel used to not be cdalled work. work meant getting sweaty, working long hours, and seeing a finished product. btw, even now, if someone is at home sick and is seen walking to the store to buy milk, or just going out side, everyone will talk about how that person is faking being sick. if u take a day off and people see u cleaning the house or working in the garden, they will stop and ask u with surprise, 'what, no work today?'... why? ...

i could go on forever, in general it used to bother me that my husband has a different attitude about work then i did, but frankly, ive gotten over it.

Kibbutz was made(i guess the right word to use) as a model of socialism and even communism, as all are equal, paid the same and work the same.

As you said, if you do not work or sick but seen going to shop, you are questioned and looked at with a question mark.

So it does work, providing everyone puts in an effort, naturally some will try to do as less as possible.

Some kibbutz will kick you out if you really go out of your way to do nothing or try to be a parasite.

Not really sure what my point is , but thought i express my opinion about kibbutz

[lazygourmet]

[Kilgore Trout]

Why didn't they employ some staff, any blind Freddie could see they needed that. There must be more to this story that we don't know about I would think.

Didn't want to share the profits probably. Stupidity and greed are dangerous bedfellows.

[krisb]

im a kibbutznik, on a kibbutz that, while not entirely like the old days, and like five or six other kibbutzim in the negev, we are still dinosaurs...

and yes, there are those that always always get away with doing nothing, and there are the parasites, but as i ahve said countless times , lving in a thai village and living on a kibbutz are very similar in that only those that really lvie there know what goes on under the outer layers, and peer pressure and status are worth more then all the money in the world.

my husband btw, korat small dinky village, cannot stand kibbutz. he lives with me but is not a kibbutznik and wouldnt do it if u paid him a million dollars. we go thru visa procedures every year here, adn people wonder why he stays, its not for the visa or the house or hte money cause he could earn three times what he earns here in jerusalem, in tel aviv and live illagally w/o a visa, no problem. ... he is perfectly fine with second hand clothes, waits to fix stuff when it starts to fall apart, hates going out, dining out or buying anything except for boy toys: new improved phone, friday night with the boys, some legal and not so legal lotteries (we put it in our budget. i buy animal stuff, he buys lottery, works out to about the same wastes of money.) he has his own side line of washing machine rent/fix for the thai workers, it coudl make tons of money, but, it worked well when a brother was handlign the money collecting and day to day aspects and hubby was the fixer. the brother went back home (visa finished) and he tried with a 'friend' . as everyone knows, family is better then friends when thais want to trust someone... so little by little the business has slowed, hubby is less active in finding fix it jobs and the 'friend' is less active in finding new clinets, we have to pay him cash as opposed to some cash and help in other ways liek with the brother, so hubby is sick and tired of it, so... slacked off... he prefers a few machines asns some sporadic side work rather then hard work, headaches, management problems, and lots of money...

kibbutzniks btw, have an extremely high work ethic to the point of obsessiveness. it is hard for us to not work. i am a hotel receptionist now, but i dont work jsut my hours.as i am a kibbutznik, i am also an owner of the business, so i often put i extra hours in high season although we dont get paid, i have a zillion vacation hours coming to me that get thrown out every year)...

many country thais really really dont like the headaches involved with managing businesses. they like to do their thing and go home. work is a neccesity, not a way of life. way of life has priority over work. with that attitude they are always looking for short work times, with high payment which is why yaabaa is such good business, and lottery is so appealing. those in the west with the protestant work ethic find that disturbing. for us, work is life. here on kibbutz even working in a hotel used to not be cdalled work. work meant getting sweaty, working long hours, and seeing a finished product. btw, even now, if someone is at home sick and is seen walking to the store to buy milk, or just going out side, everyone will talk about how that person is faking being sick. if u take a day off and people see u cleaning the house or working in the garden, they will stop and ask u with surprise, 'what, no work today?'... why? ...

i could go on forever, in general it used to bother me that my husband has a different attitude about work then i did, but frankly, ive gotten over it.

Sorry Bina, but whats a Kibbutz in the Negev?...Ive never heard of it before

[Kilgore Trout]

im a kibbutznik, on a kibbutz that, while not entirely like the old days, and like five or six other kibbutzim in the negev, we are still dinosaurs...

and yes, there are those that always always get away with doing nothing, and there are the parasites, but as i ahve said countless times , lving in a thai village and living on a kibbutz are very similar in that only those that really lvie there know what goes on under the outer layers, and peer pressure and status are worth more then all the money in the world.

my husband btw, korat small dinky village, cannot stand kibbutz. he lives with me but is not a kibbutznik and wouldnt do it if u paid him a million dollars. we go thru visa procedures every year here, adn people wonder why he stays, its not for the visa or the house or hte money cause he could earn three times what he earns here in jerusalem, in tel aviv and live illagally w/o a visa, no problem. ... he is perfectly fine with second hand clothes, waits to fix stuff when it starts to fall apart, hates going out, dining out or buying anything except for boy toys: new improved phone, friday night with the boys, some legal and not so legal lotteries (we put it in our budget. i buy animal stuff, he buys lottery, works out to about the same wastes of money.) he has his own side line of washing machine rent/fix for the thai workers, it coudl make tons of money, but, it worked well when a brother was handlign the money collecting and day to day aspects and hubby was the fixer. the brother went back home (visa finished) and he tried with a 'friend' . as everyone knows, family is better then friends when thais want to trust someone... so little by little the business has slowed, hubby is less active in finding fix it jobs and the 'friend' is less active in finding new clinets, we have to pay him cash as opposed to some cash and help in other ways liek with the brother, so hubby is sick and tired of it, so... slacked off... he prefers a few machines asns some sporadic side work rather then hard work, headaches, management problems, and lots of money...

kibbutzniks btw, have an extremely high work ethic to the point of obsessiveness. it is hard for us to not work. i am a hotel receptionist now, but i dont work jsut my hours.as i am a kibbutznik, i am also an owner of the business, so i often put i extra hours in high season although we dont get paid, i have a zillion vacation hours coming to me that get thrown out every year)...

many country thais really really dont like the headaches involved with managing businesses. they like to do their thing and go home. work is a neccesity, not a way of life. way of life has priority over work. with that attitude they are always looking for short work times, with high payment which is why yaabaa is such good business, and lottery is so appealing. those in the west with the protestant work ethic find that disturbing. for us, work is life. here on kibbutz even working in a hotel used to not be cdalled work. work meant getting sweaty, working long hours, and seeing a finished product. btw, even now, if someone is at home sick and is seen walking to the store to buy milk, or just going out side, everyone will talk about how that person is faking being sick. if u take a day off and people see u cleaning the house or working in the garden, they will stop and ask u with surprise, 'what, no work today?'... why? ...

i could go on forever, in general it used to bother me that my husband has a different attitude about work then i did, but frankly, ive gotten over it.

Kibbutz was made(i guess the right word to use) as a model of socialism and even communism, as all are equal, paid the same and work the same.

As you said, if you do not work or sick but seen going to shop, you are questioned and looked at with a question mark.

So it does work, providing everyone puts in an effort, naturally some will try to do as less as possible.

Some kibbutz will kick you out if you really go out of your way to do nothing or try to be a parasite.

Not really sure what my point is , but thought i express my opinion about kibbutz

Kibbutzim used to be models of socialism that works, but now they are just small businesses. I remember at one point, when all of the kids lived together, not with their parents, it was said these kids grew up extremely socially adaptable and with little or no mental issues.

Not the case these days.

[JDGRUEN]

There is a reflection of small village life in the concept of the Kibbutz ... regardless of where it is found - a certain degree of self-sufficiency, small group hierarchy, the necessity for individual participation and other factors... http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kibbutz

But - in my opinion the encroachment of mass communications changes the whole dynamic for any remote and 'clustered life What I saw in deep isolated Issan 40 years ago was a snapshot - a capsule of time - a way of life brought about over thousands of years. I went into any number of 'Ban Noi'. There were no local roads to these out of the way Ban Noks... maybe a wide water buffalo trail and a very sweaty hike though the jungle forest.

These Ban Lek villages were often 50 to 100 people. 'Facilities' were usually one or two outhouses suspended over a creek downstream a bit from the village. Any number of times I was the first Caucasian the villagers had ever seen... They thought I was blind - because of my blue eyes - waving their hands in front of my eyes. The only people they knew with blue eyes were old people with cataracts - being mostly blind. The children ran all around me and would rub my hairy arms calling me 'ling' . I took no offense - they were overjoyed at the marvel and the novelty of these strange tall people.

But even then there were the signs of encroachment of 'civilization'. We frequently found wrappers of stimulant amphetamines that the men - especially old men would take to increase their stamina in order to maintain rank in the village structure. These people were very self-sufficient, fish from the stream, rice from the paddies, vegetables that even grew on roof tops and chickens everywhere. Sometimes there would be a radio and if a battery was available from the long trek to Sakon Nakhon .. one could hear a bit of the 'big city' if the wave propagation was just right. Despite this bit of encroachment traditional village life reigned - few strayed for long.

Alas ... roads were expanded - even when I was there. It suddenly became so much easier to go to Khon Kaen, Kalasin, Ubon and other 'far away' places. Communications - radio, TV, cell phone, etc. make people curious and a bit envious of what goes on elsewhere. Modern life seems to be a non stop break down of the glue of lasting values that hold everyone together. So - it would seem today that while opportunities abound to go venture to Krung Thep and make mak mak Baht... the pull of the village and the 'connections' there are still greater than gravity for some...

[rene123]

You can learn a lot on these threads if you take the time to read them thoroughly and toss out the trolls and negativity.

[bina]

ill answer all questions:

first: the kids that were raised in 'lina mishpahtit" (collective childrens houses) came out seriously f... up...; lots of movies autobiographies, lawsuits and psychologists are raking it in now.. my ex husband's age group was one of the last groups to be raised this way... his mother recalls it as a horrible traumatic experience that if she could do it a gain, would not do it that way. this is a woman who plowed fields full of rocks, with a mule and a gun slung over her shoulder.

secoond: kibbutz cannot throw u out if u are a member. it is not a legal move. doesn work that way. even if u steal or rape, the person has to go thru legal channels and then when he/she leaves, there is the 'severance pay' and pension plans to deal with. usually, the person (if it is small crimes/theft/not socially acceptable behavior) is just quietly convinced to leave at his /her own will; OR they leave due to horrible brutal peer pressure. (so far, similar to small villages, as my husband would say, muu baan lek, mai mee kwam laap ie no secrets in a small village)

third: kibbutz in negev. negev is the desert and there are many newer more ideological kibbutzim, sort of like 'back to origins' types, usually anglo/saxon oriented, but based on concious decisions to be communal and not because of a political outlook, or survival neccesity like the kibbutzim of the past.

5. slackers do not get kicked out. only this year, for th efirst time, will poeople who are not working be charged 30 shekels a month as a fine... and most likely it wont happen cause kibbutz also treats everyone as an individual case: sick, mental illness, extenuating circumstances, unable to find suitable work, theres always a reason even if its bullshit.

in our area, close to large cities, our kids see what other kids have at home, what parties they have, what spending money they get, the city kids dont have to work (ours have towork certain amount of hours per season, per age group, in order to get certain priveleges), OTH, our kids also get many more oppurtunites in the arts, sports, education,medical etc because we as a communal society can afford it, even if i as a person have not a shekel (well, at the moment i have 4000 shekels in my name). when people are sick/.dying /falling apart, suddenly the community steps in.

ive written abot this often, i find many parallels between the agricultural villages of northeastern thailand and kibbutzim, however, here too, industry brought with it new improved problems and technological advancements that changed too fast for the village to aclimate enoough, causing the same problems: in thai villages, people went form having no phone to having iphones in one generation, w/o the phasing between, no period of adjustent for people to push for better education, facilities, etc. they suddenly went from being in isolated phanomnowhere to still being in nowhere but jealous of the real world. nonone had time to work hard and save twenty years down the road, because the differences are too great and tis impossible to catch up.

alhtough my kids are hard workers, most of the kids here are not like those before them; we used to get up at 4 in the morning, help pick apples, shower, eat breakfast, and then go to our regular jobs, on saturdays we we go down to the cotton fields an hour away to week (by hand back then, or to hoe, or to work the picking machines, or cook for all the workers)... now, if we dont pay the kids to work, they wont do more then they absolutely ahve to do, and only becasue they have a quota per year,per age. fi they want field trips, and one out of coutnry trip, they must work. if they want college funding, they must complete certain hours before or after the army... some kids were so lazy they just never finished the hours and preferred to put off going to college due to lack of funds...