Appealing Uk Settlement Visa Refusal On Human Rights Grounds.

[Waterloo]

_{Thanks Tony. I do recall reading somewhere in the official published guidance to ECOs (I think) that any settlement applications that involve human rights (or humanitarian grounds) should be referred to this RCU in London. So if that is the case then the ECO would have reason to refer it. I may be wrong.}

Hi Durhamboy

the RCU is refered to in the recent report "An inspection of applications to enter, remain and settle in the UK on the basis of marriage and civil partnerships" you want page 25 this may help there is a link to the report on another post here

Found it posted by Thai Visa Express, UK Marriage Visas - Independant Chief Inspectors Report

Edited February 1, 2013 by Waterloo

[Waterloo]

Hi Kate

Like the majority here I really hope your appeal goes well, but in the mean time your immediate problem is trying to get your husband over for the birth have you cpnsidered applying for a visitors visa?

We have a 2 year old & a 6 month old & my wife would be the first to admit she would not have wanted to go through it without her husband at her side & neither should you.

[Tony M]

_{Thanks Tony. I do recall reading somewhere in the official published guidance to ECOs (I think) that any settlement applications that involve human rights (or humanitarian grounds) should be referred to this RCU in London. So if that is the case then the ECO would have reason to refer it. I may be wrong.}

I think UKBA will take the view that, under the new rules, Article 8 is considered as part of the immigration rules, and not separately any more.

Edited February 1, 2013 by Tony M

[kateharper]

You will of course also have to overcome the English language test for your partner. You do not say what employment he currently has but

many Thai qualifications are not recognised in Europe. The language tests are now standard for a number of EU countries.

You seem to dismiss Thailand as a third world country that has no appeal for you. However those of us with long term wives/husbands/partners appreciate the good and bad in both countries.

Yes the driving is bad in Thailand and rules and regulations that are normal in Europe are ignored here. However the laid back lifestyle has its attractions. I believe children are better looked after in Thailand than many cities in the UK. They do not vandalise public property for example and graffiti is rare. Thai people do not take elderly parents and stick them in 'Gods waiting room' or care homes as they are described in GB.

I think you'll have an uphill battle with your application and have not considered a Thai lifestyle.

Firstly, my husband passed the English language test, we wouldn't have been able to apply without having done so.

Secondly, I lived in Thailand for 7 years Jay,you don't need to defend Thailand and how great it is. It was great for us, when there was just two of us. Now that we are starting a family things change. I have friends in Thailand with children and i see them struggling without the support of their families around them. I don't think the education system is a patch on ours, plus it costs a fortune over there. I don't think the health and safety is sufficient for a child out there and I don't quite think the health care is either. So believe me, we have considered both options over and over and we both decided that we want to make a go of it in the UK, don't we have the right to that?

[ThaiVisaExpress]

Kate,

I have just seen this. It may be ( very) relevant to any appeal you are making. It is heavy - going, that's for sure, but paragraphs 52,53, 67 and76 seem relevant ( as do many others). I assume your lawyers will have it ?

http://www.bailii.org/uk/cases/UKUT/IAC/2013/00045_ukut_iac_2013_ui_nigeria.html

Tony M

[kateharper]

Great news, first win in court on human rights!

http://ukhumanrightsblog.com/2013/02/04/another-critique-of-the-new-immigration-rules-codification-of-article-8/

[Jay Sata]

I hate to upset the applecart but it appears Kate wants to drive a coach and horses through reasonable UK immigration law.

She suggests she has happily resided in Thailand for a number of years but now want to return to the UK to avail school and hospitals.

If she is refused what will happen?

A close friend of mine has a Thai wife and four year old child that is multilingual. He has had a couple of major operations in Thailand and is happy to reside here for the rest of his life.

Can I ask the elephant in the room question Kate...would living here be that bad?

You may be faced with the prospect if you fail in your application.

[Waterloo]

I hate to upset the applecart but it appears Kate wants to drive a coach and horses through reasonable UK immigration law.

She suggests she has happily resided in Thailand for a number of years but now want to return to the UK to avail school and hospitals.

If she is refused what will happen?

A close friend of mine has a Thai wife and four year old child that is multilingual. He has had a couple of major operations in Thailand and is happy to reside here for the rest of his life.

Can I ask the elephant in the room question Kate...would living here be that bad?

You may be faced with the prospect if you fail in your application.

A little disingenuous wouldn't you say Jay.

From reading your previous posts you would appear to enjoy upsetting the applecart.

These so called reasonable UK immigration laws completely ignore a person in Kates position, with a child on the way how can she meet the requirements to sponsor her husband.

At least if she was a man she could choose to come home first to try and meet the criteria, but as a woman you surely aren't suggesting she leaves her baby in Thailand while she returns to seek employment.

As a UK national as you well know she cannot be refused entry & her children will be automatically entitled to the use of schools & hospitals.

What she is being refused is the opportunity for the father of her future child to join her, which as you also well know he will not be entitled to recourse to public funds so how is he a burden on society.

With a child on the way & no access to benefits I would imagine he will be pretty well motivated!

Kate's life is know heading into a different phase & she has made the decision that she would like to raise her children in a western culture & with her extended family around her for support.

She has already stated that they have no extended family in Thailand with the exception of her elderly father in law.

As you like elephants in the room heres one for you, what happens if Thailand decides tomorrow that she is not welcome then they really will not have anywere to be together.

To quote you "we are all here on the whim of immigration" you can bet this situation is going to happen to someone & what then?

This one size fits all legislation is causing a lot of pain to genuine people I for one feel empathy for them.

Personally I support most of the changes and believe that cracking down on forced/sham marriages & encouraging integration is a good thing, the tendancy of some groups to be completey insular was not healthy.

My experience of Thais in this country is that they are almost always fully integrated into society as they are predominatly in mixed marriages.

[7by7]

Despite previous posts of mine possibly indicating the contrary, I do have sympathy for Kate and others in her position.

But my sympathy stems from the ridiculous financial requirement which means that her parents, or others, are not allowed to support her and her husband until he finds work.

If third party support were still allowed, Kate, and who knows how many others, would not be in this position.

As for the human rights issue; I feel that the refusal notice makes a very valid point. Kate and her husband have chosen to try and live in the UK, after living for many years happily in Thailand. Chosen, not been forced to.

If Kate had no choice other than to return to the UK then she would have a strong human rights case and my full support; but she did have a choice.

Remember that as the wife of a Thai national she does not have to meet the Thai visa requirements that I, as the husband of a Thai national, will need to meet when my wife and I eventually retire to Bangkok. No 90 day reporting, no proving a minimum income of 40,000baht per month etc. for her.

From what she has said, her husband either has a good job in Thailand or could easily find one and so support her and her child there.

She says, though, that now that she is having a child she wants to be in the UK near the support of her family; and who can blame her for that.

But playing the family loving card doesn't sit well with her and her husband's willingness to abandon his disabled father, who she says has no family to turn to other than her husband!

Whilst I wish her success, I hope it has more to do with the unfairness of the new financial requirements than with spurious human rights.

[kateharper]

7 x 7 - You don't know me or my husband or anything about our life or family. How dare you question how much my husband loves his Father and suggest we are abandoning him with no support? Absolutely below the belt that is! I won't justify any of it to you as I don't need to, But you seem to be trying very hard to put me down and my case, I don't know why but now I don't really care. I am getting the proper support and advice from professionals and don't need you opinion at all. Stop talking about my case if you feel it's such a lost cause, move on. Surely there are other people in need of "your expert advice." I really don't need your crappy comments any more, if you don't have anything nice to say then don't! I never mentioned being forced to live here, i have every right to and so should my husband and the father of our child! I shouldn't have to justify why. I have the right to private family life with my husband. You're saying that we should only be allowed to live in the UK if we are forced from Thailand? That is quite shocking, you sound like you should be working at the UKBA! Also, is it about the finances, how am I as a heavily pregnant woman supposed to realistically meet the new financial requirements? Disgraceful! And on the Thai visa, I would in fact need to meet financial requirements so get off your high horse Obviously you feel like you are above all of this as you and your wife are here together, well done you. Leave me alone please, I am under enough stress as it is.

Jay - You also seem adamant to upset me and ... me off, sad really. You don't know me and your points are not valid. I lived in Thailand for 7 years already and my husband and I want to raise our children in the UK with the support of my family, end of story. Why you feel I am disrespecting Thailand in some way is ridiculous, it's just not suitable for a family life in my opinion, each to their own if it is for them. I think Waterloo raised the rest of my points for me.

Waterloo - Thank you so much, it's humbling to see that someone I don't even know is on my side against these miserable <deleted>! I agree whole-heartedly with all of your comments and so do our lawyers. Thanks again.

[mike123ca]

It would be nice if there were no financial restrictions when it concerns marriage visa's or immigration.

A married couple should be able to reside in their or partner's home country. The immigrating partner

has shown a willingness to embrace the other culture. Today's world, if you have money, we have a visa.

If you have a vast amount of wealth, you can buy a citizenship.

Being a man with a wife and child means nothing to the Thai government.

They just want to see the money, but at least the let you keep it.

I guess that it was designed that way to encourage retired westerner's

and keep out Lao,Cambodian and other border countries from marrying Thai women.

I wish Thailand's marriage visa requirements were the same for both sexes.

[Jay Sata]

It would be nice if there were no financial restrictions when it concerns marriage visa's or immigration.

A married couple should be able to reside in their or partner's home country. The immigrating partner

has shown a willingness to embrace the other culture. Today's world, if you have money, we have a visa.

If you have a vast amount of wealth, you can buy a citizenship.

Being a man with a wife and child means nothing to the Thai government.

They just want to see the money, but at least the let you keep it.

Kate seems to dismiss Issan as some sort of third world backwater. I live in Khon Kaen which is a clean modern thriving city with a wide range of shops,schools and facilities far superior to many UK urban areas.It has great road links and Bangkok is 50 minutes away via four Thai Airways flights a day.

I don't want to get involved in others personal problems and my comments are purely objective as someone from the UK with a long time Thai partner who holds a EU passport.

The figure of £22,500 for a couple with a child reflects the minimum amount the government say is required to maintain a basic standard of living without recourse to public funds. That sum includes housing,bills such as community charges,electricity,heating etc. Renting a house is going to cost around £450 a month which leaves less than £300 a week to live on. I don't need to explain to those of you in the UK how far that small amount will go.

Is it fair they don't take family support in to consideration? Well of course many from the Indian and Pakistan community will argue no as they tend to live a life involving extended family. However what happens if living with the family doesn't work out? That's when the state has to intervene with financial support.

The UK has a massive social security finance problem that is being tackled on all fronts. This includes a cap on the amount of money tenants can claim for housing and even a new financial penalty for those living in social housing with a spare bedroom. That is why there has to be some sort of means testing on immigration.

Whatever the rights or wrongs of Britain's current policy it's still a lot more accommodating than Thailand where we have no rights at all.

On a final note I must respond to the suggestion that the Thai kingdom is not suitable for family life. In my opinion there is in general a much better attitude to family and children in this country. Schools teach respect and responsibility. There is no graffiti or vandalism here. The elderly and infirm are not thrown in to institutions. Patients are not abandoned in hospital beds to die an undignified death.People don't suffer the succession of winter illness you find in cold damp northern Europe.There are no council estates stuffed with unmarried mothers living on welfare and drug dealers peddling their wares. The UK is not the land of milk and honey many believe which is why so many expats are happy with Thailand and why given a chance most would rather live and work in a climate like this than Europe.

Edited February 8, 2013 by Jay Sata

[paully]

Kate,

At the risk of sounding like one of those

miserable <deleted>! .

you railed against, the case you cited above: http://ukhumanrightsblog.com/2013/02/04/another-critique-of-the-new-immigration-rules-codification-of-article-8/ [izuazu] is a little different to yours, and not that much help to you.

Whilst the first immigration judge in the Izuazu case clearly felt it was unreasonable for the husband to be obliged to leave the UK and live in Nigeria if his wife was refused her asylum application, by your own admission you lived perfectly happily in Thailand for 7 years - which hardly amounts to an onerous obligation to live in that country against your will. Furthermore, the Upper Tribunal in Izuazu concluded on further appeal "that although there would be some hardship in relocating to Nigeria, there was nothing to suggest that he would be unable to follow his wife there...it would not be unreasonable for the husband to have to decide between retaining his residence in the United Kingdom and following his wife to Nigeria for the time being to continue family life there". The UKBA will use this reasoning against you, you need to be prepared for it.

[kateharper]

Thanks for your "concern" don't worry we are prepared. I know the case is very different from ours but the bottom line is that she won on human rights!

We did live happily in Thailand but we have very good reasons why we can't/don't want to live there anymore to argue with our lawyers!

[Jay Sata]

Thanks for your "concern" don't worry we are prepared. I know the case is very different from ours but the bottom line is that she won on human rights!

We did live happily in Thailand but we have very good reasons why we can't/don't want to live there anymore to argue with our lawyers!

At the risk of my post being removed by the mods can I ask you if the 'lawyers' are funded by you or legal aid?

You appear to have enjoyed Thailand for several years but now want to abandon the country because you are about to have a child that his aging grandfather in Issan will never see.

It's not perfect but I'm happy here. I suspect the bulk of the UK spouse visa applicants from Thailand would be happier living in their own country than some sterile housing estate in the UK. It's very hard for a Thai woman or any other foreigner to adapt to UK life but it must be ten times harder for a man.

If you think it's hard getting a spouse to the UK just try doing things in reverse and migrating to Thailand.

[TommoPhysicist]

If you think it's hard getting a spouse to the UK just try doing things in reverse and migrating to Thailand.

It's very easy for Kate to become a Thai citizen, she only needs to apply.

It's very easy for Kate to move back to the UK with the kid and live off benefits as a single parent family.

She can claim for almost everything as a parent forced to be single by immigration, local councils are very supportive.

[bangkockney]

I suspect the bulk of the UK spouse visa applicants from Thailand would be happier living in their own country than some sterile housing estate in the UK. It's very hard for a Thai woman or any other foreigner to adapt to UK life but it must be ten times harder for a man.

If you think it's hard getting a spouse to the UK just try doing things in reverse and migrating to Thailand.

???

You will need to try very hard to properly justify each of these points.

Start by looking at the income of UK resident spouses of Thai settlement migrants to the UK (median is £1,750 monthly net). Then try and explain the housing estate link.

Given the stigma, I put it to you that it's in fact easier for a Thai male to adapt to life in the UK than a female.

In what way is it hard to migrate to Thailand? It's laughably easy. There are no conditions similar to the UK.

@Kate

Good luck, and I hope you continue to update us on your progress. I'd also highly recommend getting in touch with the JCWI - they are looking to hear from people in your exact situation. Google them and take a look at their website.

[TommoPhysicist]

In what way is it hard to migrate to Thailand? It's laughably easy. There are no conditions similar to the UK.

You clearly misunderstand the word 'migrate'.

[bangkockney]

In what way is it hard to migrate to Thailand? It's laughably easy. There are no conditions similar to the UK.

You clearly misunderstand the word 'migrate'.

Not at all. To migrate - to move to a new area or country.

[Jay Sata]

In what way is it hard to migrate to Thailand? It's laughably easy. There are no conditions similar to the UK.

You clearly misunderstand the word 'migrate'.

Not at all. To migrate - to move to a new area or country.

As a resident? Do you live in Thailand?

90 day reporting/visa's etc. How many Europeans have proper residency that can not be removed?

We are here on an ad hoc basis. There is no security, no rights and we can have our ability to reside in Thailand

cancelled in a moment leaving family,friends and property.

We have no right to own property or have a job to support our family.

We are mere visitors. However a farang wife married to a Thai has full status and can become a Thai citizen.

[jpinx]

AFAIK Human Rights legislation is for the protection of people who are forced into splitting their families by some onerous regime and there is *no* option to avoid that. Human Rights do not extend to protecting *all* the options to escape this onerous regime. If there is a choice, Human Rights will not protect one option over another, assuming they are both reasonably equal, on a global scale.

[Waterloo]

Thanks for your "concern" don't worry we are prepared. I know the case is very different from ours but the bottom line is that she won on human rights!

We did live happily in Thailand but we have very good reasons why we can't/don't want to live there anymore to argue with our lawyers!

At the risk of my post being removed by the mods can I ask you if the 'lawyers' are funded by you or legal aid?

You appear to have enjoyed Thailand for several years but now want to abandon the country because you are about to have a child that his aging grandfather in Issan will never see.

It's not perfect but I'm happy here. I suspect the bulk of the UK spouse visa applicants from Thailand would be happier living in their own country than some sterile housing estate in the UK. It's very hard for a Thai woman or any other foreigner to adapt to UK life but it must be ten times harder for a man.

If you think it's hard getting a spouse to the UK just try doing things in reverse and migrating to Thailand.

How do you know he won't see his grandson, since our little boy has been born 2 years ago he has seen the extended family in Surin twice & latter this year we will be taking him again along with his 6 month old sister.

Hell of a generalisation by return I suppose everyone in thailand lives in an Isaan village, we for example live in a nice semi rural location 10mins walk from the thames.

And as for integrating my wife speaks excellent english is very happy here loves italian food and a good steak.

We have lots of Thai freinds who all give the impression of being happy & fully integrated.

I'm glad to hear you are happy in Thailand

[bangkockney]

In what way is it hard to migrate to Thailand? It's laughably easy. There are no conditions similar to the UK.

You clearly misunderstand the word 'migrate'.

Not at all. To migrate - to move to a new area or country.

As a resident? Do you live in Thailand?

90 day reporting/visa's etc. How many Europeans have proper residency that can not be removed?

We are here on an ad hoc basis. There is no security, no rights and we can have our ability to reside in Thailand

cancelled in a moment leaving family,friends and property.

We have no right to own property or have a job to support our family.

We are mere visitors. However a farang wife married to a Thai has full status and can become a Thai citizen.

Your understanding of the route to PR and/or citizenship in Thailand is greatly misguided.

As is your understanding of the labour laws. If you want to work, get an appropriate visa and sort your work permit. It is not rocket science.

The rules for issuing a non O based on marriage have not changed in 13 years. That gives you a good hint as to the status quo.

For someone who spends most of the year in the UK I don't understand why you are so vocal on the issue.

[tahaan]

In what way is it hard to migrate to Thailand? It's laughably easy. There are no conditions similar to the UK.

You clearly misunderstand the word 'migrate'.

Not at all. To migrate - to move to a new area or country.

As a resident? Do you live in Thailand?

90 day reporting/visa's etc. How many Europeans have proper residency that can not be removed?

We are here on an ad hoc basis. There is no security, no rights and we can have our ability to reside in Thailand

cancelled in a moment leaving family,friends and property.

We have no right to own property or have a job to support our family.

We are mere visitors. However a farang wife married to a Thai has full status and can become a Thai citizen.

These are a few of the many reasons that I decided to relocate to the UK after 7 years of married life in Thailand. I was lucky that my wife applied for settlement before these unfair regulations became law. They would have meant a very difficult seperation for us. I certainly understand why Katie would rather raise a family in the UK than Thailand. I enjoyed my stay there but never really felt secure despite a comfortable life. It was knowing it could all end in a moment if you crossed the wrong person, had an accident or fell ill. The UK has many faults but I can now compare and contrast and see it for what it is, a fairer and more just society ans one that I can play a full part in.

Good luck Kate

[7by7]

In a perfect world there would be no need for visas and everyone could live wherever they desired.

We don't live in a perfect world.

From what she has posted, Ms Harper's husband was refused because he did not meet the new financial requirement.

As those familiar with my posts will know, I do think that the new financial requirement is unfair for three reasons; the minimum income figure is too high, the first £16K of savings is discounted (except at the ILR stage) and third party support is not allowed.

I made these points in my submission to the Parliamentary review (and in the public consultation before they became law), and hope that all those posting here did similar.

But Ms Harper has also posted that she has no job in the UK and wont be working as she is soon to give birth. Furthermore, she has also posted that her husband has no job in the UK either. So one has to hope that her family would have been able to support them until one of them found work.

Otherwise he would have been refused under the old rules, too!

I have posted earlier my thoughts on the reasoning of the UKBA not making him a special case under Article 8, which was greeted with a torrent of abuse.

So be it. If Ms Harper only wants cyber hugs and sympathy, she's in the wrong place. This is a forum, a place for discussion and discussion means looking at all sides of an argument.

She certainly doesn''t agree with what I posted, as is her right. But I also have the right to post it (provided I remain within the forum rules, of course).

Even though it was a PM from Ms Harper which prompted me to start this topic, I did so with the aim of having a discussion and seeking opinions on the overall effect of Article 8 on these new rules, not to look at any particular case in detail. Seem to have wandered away from that somewhat.

The ECO who refused Ms Harper's husband specifically says in the refusal notice that Article 8 has been considered and that they believe this refusal does not breach it. Now this is, and has been for as long as I can remember, been standard wording in a family settlement refusal notice; but in this case the ECO actually says that as Ms Harper and her husband have been living together in Thailand for the last 7 years then there is no reason why they cannot continue to do so. (Those who talk of work permits, border runs etc. should check the Thai rules for the foreign wife of a Thai man; whole different ball game to the foreign husband of a Thai woman, as I have pointed out previously.)

The ECO has a point.

The government's (no doubt very expensive) human rights lawyers have looked at the new rules and opined that they do not breach Article 8.

Ms Harper's lawyers differ.

The courts will decide who is right.

Whether Ms Harper's husband's case, and those of others, will cause these new rules to be changed we will have to wait and see. But it will be a long journey as I suspect that the government will want to go all the way to the ECHR should lower courts find against them.

Whether the Parliamentary review will change things, again we will have to wait and see; but I'm not holding my breath waiting for that, either.

Finally, those who think UK education and health care are so marvelous have obviously not been paying attention to the events of the last decade or so!

(Edited for typos)

Edited February 9, 2013 by 7by7

[kateharper]

Thank you "tahaan" I appreciate the support! I totally agree with your points. We shouldn't even have to justify wanting to live here, I am a British Citizen! I have every right to stay here and so should my husband , the father of our British citizen child. Is that what it's come to? Justify why you want to live here and can't live somewhere else or you are turfed out!

Really can't be bothered replying to 7x7, you really don't know what you're talking about in terms of our application. Please go "help" others. You don't understand my case. Please stop now.

[PB1]

Thank you "tahaan" I appreciate the support! I totally agree with your points. We shouldn't even have to justify wanting to live here, I am a British Citizen! I have every right to stay here and so should my husband , the father of our British citizen child. Is that what it's come to? Justify why you want to live here and can't live somewhere else or you are turfed out!

Really can't be bothered replying to 7x7, you really don't know what you're talking about in terms of our application. Please go "help" others. You don't understand my case. Please stop now.

I do wish you every sucess with your application however, there is no point shooting the messenger of some informative facts.

[tahaan]

Finally, those who think UK education and health care are so marvelous have obviously not been paying attention to the events of the last decade or so!

(Edited for typos)

I can only speak from experience. I had a couple of accidents in Thailand with injuries treated in both private and govt hospitals. I was also around and helped when my wife lost her parents and two brothers through terminal illnesses treated in local hospitals. I have also seen expats go through their last months in the Thai health system. When I compare this to the NHS care my wife has received for a couple of thankfully minor complaints, I can honestly say there's no comparison. Being away for a few years and then coming back to see what the average punter without pots of cash can expect from the system has made me proud.

As for education, I was led to believe the aim was to provide the tools to question. It was difficult to understand how the morning muster parades that I listened to every morning from the school a block or two away helped to achieve independent thought. And then there were the embarrasing introductions to ajarns unable to hold a conversation with a native speaker after years teaching English.

Don't get me wrong, I'm not knocking Thailand. I had a great time but it's an itch that's been scratched. Needs change like Kate's have. How many many on this forum are planning retirement in Thailand with their thai wives? When you're there living the dream and the govt decides to double the minimum income requirement for visas as they did in 2003. Unless there's been some very careful planning and some luck, there'll be some very difficult decisions to make. Let's hope an accompanied return to the UK will be an option.

[7by7]

Really can't be bothered replying to 7x7, you really don't know what you're talking about in terms of our application. Please go "help" others. You don't understand my case. Please stop now.

I understand only what you have posted.

Namely, that after living together perfectly happily in Thailand with your husband for 7 years you fell pregnant and decided to return to the UK.

In order to do so your husband has to meet the requirements of the UK immigration rules; which he doesn't.

As you only quoted the final part of his refusal notice and have note posted the actual reasons for the refusal, we have to assume, from what you said before he received the decision, that he was refused because he fails to meet the new financial requirement.

]I do wish you every sucess with your application however, there is no point shooting the messenger of some informative facts.

Quite.

Ms Harper, you obvioulsy don't like what I have posted. But everything I have posted is stuff you need to know; stuff you and your lawyers must deal with when your case comes to court as it will, I believe, form the basis of the UKBA's case

Sitting on your high horse and shouting about your rights may make you feel better; but that wont work in court.

You must anticipate every possible argument the UKBA and government will use. That way you and your lawyers can prepare your own arguments to counter them and not be taken by surprise with no answer.

If you lawyers are not also telling you this then they are, IMHO, failing you badly.

[somtampet]

I am about to embark on an appeal in human rights grounds! Our lawyers are really confident that we have a strong case. They said that a lot of people have been refused visas since the new rules set in and a lot of them have appealed and won on human rights grounds!

We have another few points to argue too, but our main focus will be human rights, plus "the best interests of a child" as mentioned in the UKBA's recent response to the inspector's report!

The fact that they sent us the wrong decision letter will help to prove how incompetent they are, we are lodging a formal complaint on that too!

Dont believe everything a lawyer says,many are not that honest.My brother has had 3 appeals turned down for his thai wife,s son to live in England, over 10,000 gbp now,they have given up after 5 years.