Frightening News From My Old Home

[catmac]

Before moving to Thailand, I lived in the East End of London, just a few minutes walk from where these events took place. I have to say that I could see what was happening, and was glad to have escaped the coming nightmare.

I sometimes feel that we waste so much energy on topics such as gay marriage that we don't see the real dangers until it's too late.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-london-21142148

[isanbirder]

Yes, indeed. A shocking instance of how Muslims are claiming parts of Britain for their own.... and bringing homophobia with them.

[endure]

Some Muslims tried the same trick in Derby. They got sent to gaol.

http://www.pinknews.co.uk/2012/02/10/jail-for-gay-hate-leaflet-men/

[tombkk]

I wonder whatever happened to integration. I don't understand why people move to another country and then don't adopt the culture but not only want to keep their own, but even want locals to follow theirs.

Living here in Thailand, I try to follow Thai culture where possible, but keep my own, if I want, in my home. I would never get together with other farangs and declare a "farang area" and tell Thai people that they have to follow our culture here. There certainly are farang enclaves in Thailand with predominantly farang culture, but would anybody forbid Thais passing by to follow their own? In their own country?

These people in the article are not only not allowing the locals to follow their own culture, they are also breaking UK law, which I believe stipulates that discrimination is not allowed. At the end, the article says that two people were arrested.

PS: I wonder if they were happy if a group of gay people moved to their country and declared a "gay area".

[LeCharivari]

I wonder whatever happened to integration. I don't understand why people move to another country and then don't adopt the culture but not only want to keep their own, but even want locals to follow theirs.

What makes you think they weren't born there?

Not all Brits, born and bred, are WASPs (White, Anglo-Saxon Protestants), and those that are only have their forbears to blame for immigrants moving to the UK from what were the colonies - and far from all Muslims who migrate to another country refuse to integrate and adopt another culture. Similarly, many of those who should welcome and support "integration" from those "people who move to another country" and who want to actively support their adopted country end up rejecting and insulting them instead, either deliberately or through ignorance.

Only two years ago the then British Ambassador, Asif Ahmad, was advised by the Pattaya branch of the British Legion that because he was a Muslim rather than make an address of his own he should instead read an address made by the Christian Chaplain to the Royal British Legion. Totally and utterly wrong - official Remembrance Day services are multi-faith, not multi-denominational, and there has been an Imam (and a Rabbi) at the Cenotaph in London at Remembrance Day parades since they began. 400,000 Muslims fought for the British in WWI, and more than double that number in WWII; even now, despite Iraq and Afghanistan, Muslims make up the second largest faith group in the British Armed Forces behind Christians (excluding the Brigade of Gurkhas, who are Hindu) and there are as many active members of the Armed Forces Muslim Association as there are in the Christian equivalent*. The Muslim Council of Britain is the only religious group that has actively encouraged its members to join the British Armed Forces. The advice given was totally contrary to the British military's policy of diversity and equality, but it was still given - and heeded. Why? Because of ignorance by both the Pattaya RBL and the Ambassador, both of whom should have known better.

It has now become fashionable and common practice in the West to picture Muslims as likely to be troublemakers, and troublemakers as likely to be Muslims. Like anyone else, some are and some aren't. A few years ago the rebels in Northern Mali would have just been called "rebels" as the conflict is as much between the Tuareg (who seized power themselves in a coup last year, and are now supported by the West) and the Songhai, and race (sub-Saharan vs Arab/Berber) as it is about religion, but now the "rebels" are "Islamist rebels".

What seems to have been overlooked here is that not only the MCB but the local mosque have totally and unreservedly condemned the attacks, and any similar action; unfortunately the actions of a few bigoted extremists often leads to the condemnation and sidelining of all - which is just what the extremists want.

These people in the article are not only not allowing the locals to follow their own culture, they are also breaking UK law, which I believe stipulates that discrimination is not allowed. At the end, the article says that two people were arrested.

.....

PS: I wonder if they were happy if a group of gay people moved to their country and declared a "gay area".

They are "locals" - at least now. It is "their country", now, as much as anyone else's.

Your last point is a fair one, though - and I remember being amused when, several years ago when I still occasionally went to Boyztown, I saw a couple of OTT Thai gay queens screaming at a Thai tour guide who was innocently showing a goggle-eyed Korean tour group around the area that this was a "gay zone" where straight tourists weren't welcome. It works both ways.

*: British Military policy is that it is obligatory to register your faith, even if it is agnostic or atheist, so you can get an appropriate burial if necessary. One friend of mine registered as a Druid and usually got a holiday on Midsummer's Day.

[tombkk]

I wonder whatever happened to integration. I don't understand why people move to another country and then don't adopt the culture but not only want to keep their own, but even want locals to follow theirs.

What makes you think they weren't born there?

So you mean their parents are the guilty ones who did not want to integrate?

It has now become fashionable and common practice in the West to picture Muslims as likely to be troublemakers, and troublemakers as likely to be Muslims.

No. This is not about Muslims, this is about people moving to another culture and not integrating.

[endure]

So you mean their parents are the guilty ones who did not want to integrate?

On the contrary the first generation of immigrants (who weren't born here) made enormous efforts to integrate. What you see in those news articles are the actions of a noisy very small minority. There are approximately 2 million Muslims in the UK and the overwhelming majority lead ordinary lives just like everyone else.

Personally, as someone who lives in the UK, I get rather tired of people assuming from articles in the news that all Muslims are like that. They're in the news because they did something newsworthy not because they're Muslims. It's a bit like assuming that all the ordinary Muslims in the south of Thailand support armed insurrection.

[wolf5370]

I would imaging that the London Mosques (especially Whitechapel) will distance themselves from these idiots - there is no small feeling of resentment in that area (lets not forget Tower Hamlets was the first BNP council back 15 years or so ago - and that from a very culturally mixed area) - people walking around decalring it to be a Muslim enclave, especially now its national (global even) news, are likely to attract more attention than they expect from people a lot more sinister than the local plod. Mostly the Muslims from that area are Bangladesshi and Pakistani, but there is also a large Hindu population there too - it would not take too much fuel to strike.

Hope they also arrest the jokers pouring alcohol down the drains - all they need in East London are more p!ssed rats.

[manarak]

No. This is not about Muslims, this is about people moving to another culture and not integrating.

I see your point, and in theory it is valid, however there are many religions and cultures which do not cause trouble even when they aren't integrated.

I have lived in a part of Zürich with many orthodox Jews - they wear funny clothes (large fur hats when it's summer and 30 °C), talk hebraic and repeat to anyone how the Jews are the superior race. The latter part is obnoxious, but they don't cause any troubles.

In many cities (Paris for example) live many Chinese, often grouped closely in certain quarters, many don't speak the language of their host country. Here again, no problem.

Turks in Germany. *moderate* Muslims, thanks to Kemal Atatürk. They are pretty well integrated in Germany, and apart from some isolated incidents, don't cause trouble.

the list could go on and on... when you are finished with the list of unintegrated people who don't cause trouble, then start the list of unintegrated people who do cause trouble.

You will soon see a leitmotiv.

Edited January 25, 2013 by manarak

[MAJIC]

I wonder whatever happened to integration. I don't understand why people move to another country and then don't adopt the culture but not only want to keep their own, but even want locals to follow theirs.

Living here in Thailand, I try to follow Thai culture where possible, but keep my own, if I want, in my home. I would never get together with other farangs and declare a "farang area" and tell Thai people that they have to follow our culture here. There certainly are farang enclaves in Thailand with predominantly farang culture, but would anybody forbid Thais passing by to follow their own? In their own country?

These people in the article are not only not allowing the locals to follow their own culture, they are also breaking UK law, which I believe stipulates that discrimination is not allowed. At the end, the article says that two people were arrested.

PS: I wonder if they were happy if a group of gay people moved to their country and declared a "gay area".

Or any other area,of a difference to UK Law?

[MAJIC]

"What seems to have been overlooked here is that not only the MCB but the local mosque have totally and unreservedly condemned the attacks, and any similar action; unfortunately the actions of a few bigoted extremists often leads to the condemnation and sidelining of all - which is just what the extremists want"

Talk and condemnation is cheap,do those that condemn the attacks do anything to control their own Bigoted Extremist people? a Big NO!

Edited January 25, 2013 by MAJIC

[endure]

"What seems to have been overlooked here is that not only the MCB but the local mosque have totally and unreservedly condemned the attacks, and any similar action; unfortunately the actions of a few bigoted extremists often leads to the condemnation and sidelining of all - which is just what the extremists want"

Talk and condemnation is cheap,do those that condemn the attacks do anything to control their own Bigoted Extremist people? a Big NO!

Because it's not the job of citizens to chastise those who break the law. That's called vigilantism. It's the job of the police.

http://www.guardian.co.uk/uk/2013/jan/24/muslim-patrol-gang-arrests-homophobic-video

[MAJIC]

"What seems to have been overlooked here is that not only the MCB but the local mosque have totally and unreservedly condemned the attacks, and any similar action; unfortunately the actions of a few bigoted extremists often leads to the condemnation and sidelining of all - which is just what the extremists want"

Talk and condemnation is cheap,do those that condemn the attacks do anything to control their own Bigoted Extremist people? a Big NO!

Because it's not the job of citizens to chastise those who break the law. That's called vigilantism. It's the job of the police.

http://www.guardian....omophobic-video

And if they do?

[endure]

If they break the law they should be dealt with by the justice system. All should be equal before the law. Thailand is a prime example of what happens when that's not the case.

[endure]

From the OP

"Before moving to Thailand, I lived in the East End of London,"

When did you leave the UK?

[tombkk]

No. This is not about Muslims, this is about people moving to another culture and not integrating.

I see your point, and in theory it is valid, however there are many religions and cultures which do not cause trouble even when they aren't integrated.

I have lived in a part of Zürich with many orthodox Jews - they wear funny clothes (large fur hats when it's summer and 30 °C), talk hebraic and repeat to anyone how the Jews are the superior race. The latter part is obnoxious, but they don't cause any troubles.

In many cities (Paris for example) live many Chinese, often grouped closely in certain quarters, many don't speak the language of their host country. Here again, no problem.

Turks in Germany. *moderate* Muslims, thanks to Kemal Atatürk. They are pretty well integrated in Germany, and apart from some isolated incidents, don't cause trouble.

the list could go on and on... when you are finished with the list of unintegrated people who don't cause trouble, then start the list of unintegrated people who do cause trouble.

You will soon see a leitmotiv.

My point is that it is not about religion but about the willingness of people to integrate. But I agree with you, it is not a problem as long as they don't tell other people to change their ways to follow them.

In Thailand, you will find many farangs who want to live their cultural way and not adapt to Thai ways. As long as they don't tell their neighbours how to behave, that's not a problem, I agree with you. See my earlier posting.

[tombkk]

So you mean their parents are the guilty ones who did not want to integrate?

On the contrary the first generation of immigrants (who weren't born here) made enormous efforts to integrate. What you see in those news articles are the actions of a noisy very small minority. There are approximately 2 million Muslims in the UK and the overwhelming majority lead ordinary lives just like everyone else.

Personally, as someone who lives in the UK, I get rather tired of people assuming from articles in the news that all Muslims are like that. They're in the news because they did something newsworthy not because they're Muslims. It's a bit like assuming that all the ordinary Muslims in the south of Thailand support armed insurrection.

Well, my father was an immigrant to Germany and I was born there. So, I am second generation and know about integration - my father preached it before the politicians even came up with the word decades later.

Nowhere did I say that all Muslims are bad. I didn't even mentioned Muslims, I mentioned people who come from other cultures and do not want to integrate. There are many more cultures than just "British" and "Muslim". I can well imagine that most Muslims in the UK disagree with that vocal minority which caused this news article.

Since this is about Muslims and gays, I brought up the example of a gay enclave in a Muslim country. I think that is a fair comparison.

I do not see how any of my words can be interpreted as saying that all Muslims in the UK are bad.

In fact, I said earlier:

This is not about Muslims, this is about people moving to another culture and not integrating.

[jamhar]

"What seems to have been overlooked here is that not only the MCB but the local mosque have totally and unreservedly condemned the attacks, and any similar action; unfortunately the actions of a few bigoted extremists often leads to the condemnation and sidelining of all - which is just what the extremists want"

Talk and condemnation is cheap,do those that condemn the attacks do anything to control their own Bigoted Extremist people? a Big NO!

Because it's not the job of citizens to chastise those who break the law. That's called vigilantism. It's the job of the police.

http://www.guardian....omophobic-video

I disagree.

its not vigilantism to promote understanding, and tolerance. Its the duty of every citizen pomote civil conduct, and prevent someone breaking the law if possible. its not vigilantism to break up a bar fight by pulling a buddy away, its not vigilantism to prevent law breaking, as long as we dont break the law ourselves . If we turn a blind, be afraid to get involved, and say "let the law handle it", we have lost. the lawyers and cheaters will win.

I'm not promoting violence, but i am saying that the religious leaders have a big influence in the musilum community and need to take a more active positive ACTIVE role. The moderates need to be more vocal, and take more of a leadership role.The community needs to be more active in self policing. Else the younger will see this as the legetimate feelings of the community and adopt those views themselves. and the intolerance will be perpetuated for another generation.

10 years ago, I heard (via the media) that intolerant muslims were just a small fraction of the muslim community. and i wondered, why arent the huge numbers of the moderates speaking out and doing something about it? Its their kids doing and saying this (they are SOMEBODY's kids, right?) Now atleast the moderates are speaking out. Perhaps at somepoints the moderates will start doing something about it before we lose another generation of young impressionalbe youth.

I'm officially getting off my high horse

Sorry for the tirate. I'm usually a bit more under control but this issue seem to strike a nerve with me.

Dying for the sake of dying, intolerance for the sake of intolerance. such a waste.

Edited January 26, 2013 by jamhar

[catmac]

From the OP

"Before moving to Thailand, I lived in the East End of London,"

When did you leave the UK?

I finally sold my condo in Whitechapel at the end of 2006, arriving in Chiang Mai to live with my boyfriend on Christmas Day 2006.

I had lived there for 22 years and seen the gradual transformation that turned a wonderful place to live in, to what it is now.

[LeCharivari]

So you mean their parents are the guilty ones who did not want to integrate?

On the contrary the first generation of immigrants (who weren't born here) made enormous efforts to integrate. What you see in those news articles are the actions of a noisy very small minority. There are approximately 2 million Muslims in the UK and the overwhelming majority lead ordinary lives just like everyone else.

Personally, as someone who lives in the UK, I get rather tired of people assuming from articles in the news that all Muslims are like that. They're in the news because they did something newsworthy not because they're Muslims. It's a bit like assuming that all the ordinary Muslims in the south of Thailand support armed insurrection.

Precisely, endure - the idea that "integration" means nothing more than aping others and publicly denying your own beliefs and values so that you somehow "fit in" is one that I just cannot accept, and which I think most people who are openly gay and want to be accepted as gays and "integrated" as gays would also find pretty abhorrent.

Integration is about respecting others and, hopefully, being respected in your own right - adding spice to the meal rather than just being absorbed by it.

One thing that really makes my skin crawl in Thailand are those farangs who are totally convinced they are "integrated" in Thai culture and Thai ways but are nothing more than an embarrasment to everyone around them - farang and Thai. They wai everybody from the bus conductor to the street sweeper and then insist on "helping" the food vendors cooking noodles. The last thing they are is "integrated"!

[LeCharivari]

I would imaging that the London Mosques (especially Whitechapel) will distance themselves from these idiots ...

They already have, wolf, as reported in the article. The MCB and the mosques have condemned their actions, and they do so regularly and consistently.

Talk and condemnation is cheap,do those that condemn the attacks do anything to control their own Bigoted Extremist people? a Big NO!

What exactly are you suggesting they do? Use Sharia law on the transgressors? These are not "their" people any more than a bunch of "Paki-bashers" as they would have been called a few decades ago are the Archbishop of Canterbury's people.

I'm not promoting violence, but i am saying that the religious leaders have a big influence in the musilum community and need to take a more active positive ACTIVE role. The moderates need to be more vocal, and take more of a leadership role.The community needs to be more active in self policing.

The MCB and the majority of religious and cultural leadres already are, jamhar - the MCB is far, far more active and vocal on all sorts of issues (such as military service, as I mentioned) than any similar religious or ethnic group. The problem is that once they resort to any sort of "self-policing" as you and Majic suggest, they risk isolating themselves and setting themselves apart even more from the rest of the British community, in far greater numbers than the current small but unpleasant minority. What you are suggesting really would mean the setting up of ethnic or religious zones, "policed" by the self-appointed - exactly what the extremists want, as it would be difficultto think of anything that showed less "integration".

[tombkk]

So you mean their parents are the guilty ones who did not want to integrate?

On the contrary the first generation of immigrants (who weren't born here) made enormous efforts to integrate. What you see in those news articles are the actions of a noisy very small minority. There are approximately 2 million Muslims in the UK and the overwhelming majority lead ordinary lives just like everyone else.

Personally, as someone who lives in the UK, I get rather tired of people assuming from articles in the news that all Muslims are like that. They're in the news because they did something newsworthy not because they're Muslims. It's a bit like assuming that all the ordinary Muslims in the south of Thailand support armed insurrection.

Precisely, endure - the idea that "integration" means nothing more than aping others and publicly denying your own beliefs and values so that you somehow "fit in" is one that I just cannot accept, and which I think most people who are openly gay and want to be accepted as gays and "integrated" as gays would also find pretty abhorrent.

Integration is about respecting others and, hopefully, being respected in your own right - adding spice to the meal rather than just being absorbed by it.

One thing that really makes my skin crawl in Thailand are those farangs who are totally convinced they are "integrated" in Thai culture and Thai ways but are nothing more than an embarrasment to everyone around them - farang and Thai. They wai everybody from the bus conductor to the street sweeper and then insist on "helping" the food vendors cooking noodles. The last thing they are is "integrated"!

You are mixing up integration with copying, and bring an example of trying to copy without understanding.

As a gay person, I am fully integrated into my boyfriend's family. Nobody wants us to copy them and become straight, but we are also not asking everybody to become gay.

Integration is about respect and understanding each other. You have to be willing to learn and understand in order to be integrated.

[Suradit69]

Yes, indeed. A shocking instance of how Muslims are claiming parts of Britain for their own.... and bringing homophobia with them.

"...and bringing homophobia with them"

Yes, because it didn't exist until the Mulims arrived. Get serious. They may be (officially) homophobic, but it's not like they're bringing some new concept to the UK or anywhere else in the "enlightened" west. Islamic anti-homosexuality is as repugnant as any other form of bigotry, but let's not try to act like it's something newly arrived in Britain or anywhere else because of Muslims.

[isanbirder]

Yes, indeed. A shocking instance of how Muslims are claiming parts of Britain for their own.... and bringing homophobia with them.

"...and bringing homophobia with them"

Yes, because it didn't exist until the Mulims arrived. Get serious. They may be (officially) homophobic, but it's not like they're bringing some new concept to the UK or anywhere else in the "enlightened" west. Islamic anti-homosexuality is as repugnant as any other form of bigotry, but let's not try to act like it's something newly arrived in Britain or anywhere else because of Muslims.

You misunderstood me.... my fault for being too brief. Of course homophobia existed before the Muslims came (take the BNP as an example). The Islamic fundamentalists, however, make a parade of it.

[endure]

Yes, indeed. A shocking instance of how Muslims are claiming parts of Britain for their own.... and bringing homophobia with them.

"...and bringing homophobia with them"

Yes, because it didn't exist until the Mulims arrived. Get serious. They may be (officially) homophobic, but it's not like they're bringing some new concept to the UK or anywhere else in the "enlightened" west. Islamic anti-homosexuality is as repugnant as any other form of bigotry, but let's not try to act like it's something newly arrived in Britain or anywhere else because of Muslims.

You misunderstood me.... my fault for being too brief. Of course homophobia existed before the Muslims came (take the BNP as an example). The Islamic fundamentalists, however, make a parade of it.

Up until very recently homophobia was the entrenched position for most of the UK population. Let's not forget that it's only 58 years ago since Beaulieu, Pitt-Rivers and Wildeblood were sent to prison. It's only in the past few years that it's been fairy dust and candyfloss.

[NoshowJones]

I wonder whatever happened to integration. I don't understand why people move to another country and then don't adopt the culture but not only want to keep their own, but even want locals to follow theirs.

What makes you think they weren't born there?

So you mean their parents are the guilty ones who did not want to integrate?

It has now become fashionable and common practice in the West to picture Muslims as likely to be troublemakers, and troublemakers as likely to be Muslims.

No. This is not about Muslims, this is about people moving to another culture and not integrating.

And just who are the worst for moving to another culture and not integrating? The truth now.

[tombkk]

So you mean their parents are the guilty ones who did not want to integrate?

It has now become fashionable and common practice in the West to picture Muslims as likely to be troublemakers, and troublemakers as likely to be Muslims.

No. This is not about Muslims, this is about people moving to another culture and not integrating.

And just who are the worst for moving to another culture and not integrating? The truth now.

I don't know the answer. Farangs in Thailand?

[NoshowJones]

"What seems to have been overlooked here is that not only the MCB but the local mosque have totally and unreservedly condemned the attacks, and any similar action; unfortunately the actions of a few bigoted extremists often leads to the condemnation and sidelining of all - which is just what the extremists want"

Talk and condemnation is cheap,do those that condemn the attacks do anything to control their own Bigoted Extremist people? a Big NO!

Because it's not the job of citizens to chastise those who break the law. That's called vigilantism. It's the job of the police.

http://www.guardian....omophobic-video

But the police are not there, when do you ever see them? On the very occasional chance that they are there, when they make an arrest and the wrongdoer appears in court, he often just gets his fingers rapped and walks free. The police and courts must be given the chance to bring the wrongdoers to justice. but, if someone does you harm and the law does not punish them, that's when you take the law in to your own hands. I am only referring to the UK, because I know what it's like there, I cannot comment on justice and lawbreaking in other countries.

[NoshowJones]

So you mean their parents are the guilty ones who did not want to integrate?

It has now become fashionable and common practice in the West to picture Muslims as likely to be troublemakers, and troublemakers as likely to be Muslims.

No. This is not about Muslims, this is about people moving to another culture and not integrating.

And just who are the worst for moving to another culture and not integrating? The truth now.

I don't know the answer. Farangs in Thailand?

No, I have been here for seven years, and have never met a farang who hates Thais and won't integrate. Say all you like about Thailand, but in my opinion, the good outweighs the bad here.

[endure]

"What seems to have been overlooked here is that not only the MCB but the local mosque have totally and unreservedly condemned the attacks, and any similar action; unfortunately the actions of a few bigoted extremists often leads to the condemnation and sidelining of all - which is just what the extremists want"

Talk and condemnation is cheap,do those that condemn the attacks do anything to control their own Bigoted Extremist people? a Big NO!

Because it's not the job of citizens to chastise those who break the law. That's called vigilantism. It's the job of the police.

http://www.guardian....omophobic-video

But the police are not there, when do you ever see them?

http://www.guardian....omophobic-video

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-derbyshire-16985147