Female Monks Allowed In Thailand? They Cause A Stir...

[george]

Female monks cause a stir

Published: 24 Jan 2013 at 10.03Online news:

Residents of tambon Bang Krathuek in Sam Phran district of Nakhon Pathom province want the National Office of Buddhism to investigate a group of women who don yellow robes and go out seeking alms every morning, just like Buddhist monks.

Buddhist nuns traditionally wear white robes.

Many locals were surprised by the sight but did not suspect anything wrong. Some were even unaware that they were females.

According to a report in Daily News, a local motorcycle taxi driver whose name was given as Somphol showed a video clip of three women aged 40-50 dressed in yellow robes like monks and carrying alms bowls.

Mr Sompol said he had never seen such a thing prior to December last year. They regularly walked down from Phutthamonthon Sai 5 Road to their lodging near Wat Don Wai. Normally, there were four of them, he added.

They did not stay in a temple, but in some type of building with high security, according to Mr Sompol.

A local food vendor said that she has been working in the area for a long time but until recently had not seen any female monks. She had asked local police to investigate the matter, but so far no progress semed to have been made.

The food vendor said that female monks are allowed in India and Sri Lanka, but she did not think they were permitted in Thailand. If they were, she would like her daughter enter the monkhood too.

She wants a responsible agency to check whether they are real monks or not.

-- Bangkok Post 2013-01-24

[bankei]

The are real Bhikkhuni not monks. I should say they are just as real as the Thai monks.

[GrahamR]

http://www.iwmcf.org/IWMC.html

Women are not normally ordained in Thailand with saffron robes, but in China or Vietnam they are.

Some now practice in Thailand. I don't know why it causes such a stir.

I believe they wear brown robes in Sri Lanka.

Graham

Edited January 26, 2013 by GrahamR

[Xangsamhua]

The photo on Wikipedia of Dhammananda Bhikkhuni shows her wearing a reddish-brown (russet?) robe.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dhammananda_Bhikkhuni

[khaowong1]

We have about 4 or 5 Bhikkhuni here in the US.. I believe they stay in a temple in California.. They are Theravada women monks and I believe they were ordained in Sri Lanka.. Most male Thai monks I ask about them, laugh, they don't consider them to be Real monks.. The Thai male pride is much like Hispanic pride. very macho...

[bankei]

http://www.iwmcf.org/IWMC.html

Women are not normally ordained in Thailand with saffron robes, but in China or Vietnam they are.

Some now practice in Thailand. I don't know why it causes such a stir.

I believe they wear brown robes in Sri Lanka.

Graham

Bhikkhuni are not normally ordained in Thailand at all. I haven't heard of any reports of higher ordination, but there have been a few women ordained as Sameneri or novices.

The white robed woman 'ordained' in Thailand as Mae Chi are not really ordained according to any vinaya proceedure. They are just laywoman following, selectively, 5 to 10 precepts.

Most, if not all, of the Bhikkhini in Thailand trace their lineage from Sri Lanaka. There is the Dhammananda group and there are other groups independant as well.

Bankei

[sabaijai]

Thailand's female monks (cautiously) lobby for legal recognition By Amy Lieberman, CSM, September 8, 2011

A quiet campaign to grant female monks legal recognition began this summer. Advocates hope that the minimal fanfare will help the 'Bhikkhunis' evade conservative religious opposition.

BANGKOK, THAILAND -- Dhammananda Bhikkhuni grips a wobbly stack of feminine hygiene products and sorts them on a long table. Her followers watch before mimicking her quick movements.

<< Novice monk Dhammarakhita ©, dressed in a brick-colored robe after her ordination by Sri Lankan Bhikkuni, an order of female monks, gestures at Songdharmakalyani Temple in Nakhon Pathom, in this 2002 file photo. Formally known as Varangghana Vanavichayen, Dhammarakhita, a mother of two who divorced her husband to dedicate her life to Buddhism, became the first woman to be ordained as a monk in Thailand.
AFP/Newscom File

Bhikkhunis (Pee-KOO-nees), ordained female monks, in Thailand consider their gender to be an essential bridge to the women they help through charity work and spiritual guidance, since women are forbidden to be alone with male monks, known as Bhikkhu (Pee-KOO).

But Thai Bhikkhunis have their own limitations, not just because they number only 25 compared with the approximate 200,000 male monks here. They lack legal recognition – a denial that accompanies various withholdings of public benefits, and it highlights a persistent issue of discrimination for women across the country.

A revived campaign to grant Bhikkhunis legal recognition launched quietly at the end of July, with advocates hoping that minimal fanfare would help them evade the conservative religious opposition that has prevented the movement from strengthening for more than 80 years.

“This is a basic human rights issue,” says prominent former senator and lawyer Paiboon Nititawan, an organizer of the Bhikkhunis’ rights movement.

The new approach to take a cautious tact to achieve legal recognition for Bhikkhunis won’t grant them entirely equal status with the male monks. But Bhikkhunis and their supporters are eager to accept whatever gains they can secure in the still largely conservative country.

The trick? “We have to stay low key,” says Dhammananda, the eldest and longest-standing Bhikkhuni in Thailand. “We won’t go out and march through the streets.”

Dhammananda presides over a monastery that is home to nine Bhikkhunis in Nakhon Pathom province, one-hour northwest of Bangkok.

The residing Bhikkhunis, all ordained in Sri Lanka, which practices their observed chapter of Buddhism, Theravada, strictly follow the eight guiding principles of Buddhism.

Like their male counterparts, the women pray several times a day and discuss Buddhist teachings. But only Bhikkhuni can physically touch the other women who travel long distances for prayer.

“I love that it is easy to touch and talk with Dhammananda,” said Khun Tip, a layperson who visits the monastery daily. “Women who have problems with their husbands or families cannot talk to male monks about these things.”

Hurdles for women monks

Everyday barriers male monks don’t have to consider stunt Bhikkhunis’ work with women, the female monks say.

Male monks receive free public transportation and reserved bus seats, government identification cards, and public funds to support their monasteries. Bhikkhunis, meanwhile, have to rely on help from laypeople and private donations.

“If we go on the bus there is no place for us to sit,” explains Dhammananda. “To many people, this here would not be considered a temple, because with a temple you must have a monk, and we are not considered that.”

Bhikkhunis’ rights campaign reveals the subtle, yet entrenched brand of gender discrimination in Thailand, which has achieved gender parity in classrooms and the workforce. However, women still earn only 94 percent of what male colleagues make and hold the minority of executive, high-level positions in business and politics.

Dhammananda acknowledges the “injustice” of Bhikkhunis’ lack of recognition, but says if their campaign is to be successful it must appeal to Buddhist morals and honor the Buddha's word – not necessarily women's empowerment.

“We will bring these donations to women who are in the local prison,” explained Ms. Dhammananda. “If we don’t, then who?”

Thai constitution

Bhikkhuni ordination is permitted under the Thai constitution, but the Thai Sangha Council, a government-linked religious advisory group, does not accept Bhikkhunis’ legal status or right to be ordained within the country. It cites a 1928 Sangha Act, which banned ordination of women following the last known attempt to recognize Bhikkhunis.

A new constitution in 1932 made that religious order void, says Mr. Nititawan.

But the Thai Sangha and some Bhikkhu – who remain largely unaware of the revitalized campaign – continue to cite the 1928 order, which recognizes only Bhikkhu, along with Vietnamese and Chinese male monks.

Nititawan says nearly 1,000 people have signed a petition to propose an amendment to the Sangha Act – one-tenth of what is needed to bring the measure before the Thai Parliament.

The change in law would place Bhikkhunis in the “other sangha,” or ordained monks, category, along with Vietnamese and Chinese monks. Bhikkhuni would still have to travel abroad to receive ordination, a costly and time consuming process of several years.

“We believe that the government will support this because there is no reason not to,” explained Sutada Mekrungruengkul, director of the Gender and Development Research Institute in Bangkok, who helped organize the campaign’s launch among 30 people in Bangkok on July 29.

The movement also references the Buddha's support of Bhikkhunis when he allowed women to join the order of female Sangha, according to Dhammananda, because they were capable of enlightenment.

Dhammananda received her full ordination in 2003 and took over the temple her mother, the first fully ordained woman in Thailand, built in the 1970s.

A former university professor and divorced mother of three grown children, Dhammananda, then known as Chatsumarn Kabilsingh, says she found her spiritual calling mid life, when she felt something was missing from her otherwise full life. She realized it was a lack of fulfillment of her spirituality. She looked in the mirror one day and asked herself, “How much longer do I have to keep on doing this?” Competing for recognition at work seemed insignificant to adopting a simpler life of charity, reflection, and spirituality.

Other Bhikkhunis also chose ordination over promising careers.

Dhamma Vijaya planned to become an ambassador, and later considered social justice work, before she joined the monastery as a novice.

“It doesn’t matter to me that we are not recognized,” Ms. Dhamma said. “I would like to learn and that is my right.”

She thinks that the ranks of Bhikkhunis will grow if they receive legal recognition.

“It will help us become stronger,” Dhamma continued.

Approximately 1,200 Bhikkhunis practice across Southeast Asia and some parts of South Asia, among other places. Aside from Sri Lanka, Bhikkhunis can also receive ordination in China, Taiwan, Australia, and the United States.

Many national communities of Bhikkhunis say they have had their own struggles for equality, and they support one another through an international alliance. The alliance, of which Dhammanada is a member, works to support ordination of women worldwide.

[rockyysdt]

Thailand's female monks (cautiously) lobby for legal recognition

But Bhikkhunis and their supporters are eager to accept whatever gains they can secure in the still largely conservative country.

The trick? “We have to stay low key,” says Dhammananda, the eldest and longest-standing Bhikkhuni in Thailand. “We won’t go out and march through the streets.”

Dhammananda presides over a monastery that is home to nine Bhikkhunis in Nakhon Pathom province, one-hour northwest of Bangkok.

Hurdles for women monks

Everyday barriers male monks don’t have to consider stunt Bhikkhunis’ work with women, the female monks say.

Male monks receive free public transportation and reserved bus seats, government identification cards, and public funds to support their monasteries. Bhikkhunis, meanwhile, have to rely on help from laypeople and private donations.

“If we go on the bus there is no place for us to sit,” explains Dhammananda. “To many people, this here would not be considered a temple, because with a temple you must have a monk, and we are not considered that.”

Bhikkhunis’ rights campaign reveals the subtle, yet entrenched brand of gender discrimination in Thailand, which has achieved gender parity in classrooms and the workforce. However, women still earn only 94 percent of what male colleagues make and hold the minority of executive, high-level positions in business and politics.

Dhammananda acknowledges the “injustice” of Bhikkhunis’ lack of recognition, but says if their campaign is to be successful it must appeal to Buddhist morals and honor the Buddha's word – not necessarily women's empowerment.

“We will bring these donations to women who are in the local prison,” explained Ms. Dhammananda. “If we don’t, then who?”

Thai constitution

Bhikkhuni ordination is permitted under the Thai constitution, but the Thai Sangha Council, a government-linked religious advisory group, does not accept Bhikkhunis’ legal status or right to be ordained within the country. It cites a 1928 Sangha Act, which banned ordination of women following the last known attempt to recognize Bhikkhunis.

A new constitution in 1932 made that religious order void, says Mr. Nititawan.

But the Thai Sangha and some Bhikkhu – who remain largely unaware of the revitalized campaign – continue to cite the 1928 order, which recognizes only Bhikkhu, along with Vietnamese and Chinese male monks.

Nititawan says nearly 1,000 people have signed a petition to propose an amendment to the Sangha Act – one-tenth of what is needed to bring the measure before the Thai Parliament.

The change in law would place Bhikkhunis in the “other sangha,” or ordained monks, category, along with Vietnamese and Chinese monks. Bhikkhuni would still have to travel abroad to receive ordination, a costly and time consuming process of several years.

If one cannot be fully Awakended unless they free themselves from "Aversion, Greed, & Delusion", does that mean that Monks who maintain their discrimination (attachment to delusion & aversion) against the ordination of Bhikkhunis will fail to become Enlightened?

Edited March 4, 2013 by rockyysdt

[sabaijai]

An interesting question, probably unanswerable by non-arahants, but I suppose it would depend on their intention, case by case. One might likewise ask, does our concern about someone else's capacity to attain arahanthood taint our own progress?

[rockyysdt]

An interesting question, probably unanswerable by non-arahants, but I suppose it would depend on their intention, case by case. One might likewise ask, does our concern about someone else's capacity to attain arahanthood taint our own progress?

I suppose it might also be down to intention.

The compassion in me (metta, and karuna) causes me to feel for women seeking ordination, or who miss out on possible opportunity.

If the status of Bikkhu & Bikkhuni, offers the potential to attain higher levels (if not the ultimate goal), then attachment of a delusory or aversive intention, with correspondingly negative political outcomes, might lead to considerable Vipaka.

For me, I hope it's not an attachment, but rather a concern which can sow political seeds for change.

[sabaijai]

When a person acts, there is always a quality of intention in the mind, and it is that quality -- rather than the outward appearance of the action -- that determines the vipaka, whether for that person or for other people.

[Nuna]

We have about 4 or 5 Bhikkhuni here in the US.. I believe they stay in a temple in California.. They are Theravada women monks and I believe they were ordained in Sri Lanka.. Most male Thai monks I ask about them, laugh, they don't consider them to be Real monks.. The Thai male pride is much like Hispanic pride. very macho...

The "real" monks or Bhikkunis don't mock each other.

[rockyysdt]

When a person acts, there is always a quality of intention in the mind, and it is that quality -- rather than the outward appearance of the action -- that determines the vipaka, whether for that person or for other people.

An interesting one S J.

If inappropriate acts proceed due to "delusion", does this mitigate Vipaka?

If it does, can travelers use ignorance as an excuse?

Edited April 18, 2013 by rockyysdt

[huli]

When a person acts, there is always a quality of intention in the mind, and it is that quality -- rather than the outward appearance of the action -- that determines the vipaka, whether for that person or for other people.

An interesting one S J.

If inappropriate acts proceed due to "delusion", does this mitigate Vipaka?

If it does, can travelers use ignorance as an excuse?

For a person to be deluded, it is necessary for that person to be unaware of it, by definition, it seems to me.

It's not possible for one to be aware of one's delusion, until the delusion is overcome.

Inappropriate acts do not seem so to such a person, and consequently they would see no reason to make any excuse.

As I understand it, delusion has to do with not seeing things as they actually are. Even if we have not overcome delusion, we still have intentions and reap the consequences.

Would you not agree?

[rockyysdt]

When a person acts, there is always a quality of intention in the mind, and it is that quality -- rather than the outward appearance of the action -- that determines the vipaka, whether for that person or for other people.

An interesting one S J.

If inappropriate acts proceed due to "delusion", does this mitigate Vipaka?

If it does, can travelers use ignorance as an excuse?

For a person to be deluded, it is necessary for that person to be unaware of it, by definition, it seems to me.

It's not possible for one to be aware of one's delusion, until the delusion is overcome.

Inappropriate acts do not seem so to such a person, and consequently they would see no reason to make any excuse.

As I understand it, delusion has to do with not seeing things as they actually are. Even if we have not overcome delusion, we still have intentions and reap the consequences.

Would you not agree?

Yes, it seems that if we are deluded we may choose inappropriately.

There are many and varying examples of delusion.

Much of it can be attributed to conditioning.

There is much said in Buddhist circles about intention.

It's been said often that it's not just the act but your intention.

It seems delusion is a loophole as those who are deluded lack awareness and therefore maybe incapable of making the correct choices.

It seems contradictory as my thoughts suggest to me that delusion can't be used as an excuse.

[sabaijai]

Rocky It's not a loophole. What one reports as one's intentions -- which might create the idea of having an 'excuse' - may not be the actual mental process (which one may not be aware of). Intent itself may be deluded, or unskilful, ie born of ignorance, attachment or aversion rather than right view, non-attachment (upeka) and compassion..

In the Upali Sutta the Buddha gives examples to demonstrate this in a debate with Upali, a disciple of Jain master Nigantha Nattaputta. The latter associated karma with surface action, the Buddha with intention. More specifically the Buddha explained that the same or similar action by two different people having two different intentions will result in different vipaka. The mains example given has to do with alms-giving. Upali is so impressed with the Buddha's explanation of kamma that he leaves the Jain tradition to become Buddha's disciple. Upali says he will stop giving alms to Nigantha Nattaputta and his followers, but Buddha says there's no need to stop if the intention is selfless, that the result will be wholesome. Or something along those lines. It's the inverse of discussions we've had about making merit, ie those who do so in order to better their lot in life or in hopes of a more comfortable rebirth are not actually contributing to the field of merit.

A nice lay explanation:

http://www.clear-vision.org/schools/students/ages-17-18/Nature-of-Reality/what-is-a-karma.aspx

[rockyysdt]

Rocky It's not a loophole. What one reports as one's intentions -- which might create the idea of having an 'excuse' - may not be the actual mental process (which one may not be aware of). Intent itself may be deluded, or unskilful, ie born of ignorance, attachment or aversion rather than right view, non-attachment (upeka) and compassion..

In the Upali Sutta the Buddha gives examples to demonstrate this in a debate with Upali, a disciple of Jain master Nigantha Nattaputta. The latter associated karma with surface action, the Buddha with intention. More specifically the Buddha explained that the same or similar action by two different people having two different intentions will result in different vipaka. The mains example given has to do with alms-giving. Upali is so impressed with the Buddha's explanation of kamma that he leaves the Jain tradition to become Buddha's disciple. Upali says he will stop giving alms to Nigantha Nattaputta and his followers, but Buddha says there's no need to stop if the intention is selfless, that the result will be wholesome. Or something along those lines. It's the inverse of discussions we've had about making merit, ie those who do so in order to better their lot in life or in hopes of a more comfortable rebirth are not actually contributing to the field of merit.

A nice lay explanation:

http://www.clear-vision.org/schools/students/ages-17-18/Nature-of-Reality/what-is-a-karma.aspx

So basically ignorance or delusion (unless caused by mental illness/disorder), is a disposition (natural mental and emotional outlook, state of mind, or inclination) & lack of awareness is a bad habit.

Following from this perpetuating a state of ignorance rather than overcoming it is volitional and therefore has karmic implications.

It must be extremely difficult for some of us if we have been heavily ingrained (conditioned) with beliefs & habits which cause us to be inclined to ignorant thoughts & actions and to resist gaining awareness/change.

Such an example might be to "vote Republican regardless of the consequential outcome to humanity".

Edited April 21, 2013 by rockyysdt

[lungmi]

Read this link and you have most of the information you need.

http://www.congress-on-buddhist-women.org/59.0.html

[lungmi]

Sorry, the link was incomplete.

http://www.thaibuddhism.net/pdf/seeger_nuns.pdf

[deadman]

well they've got em flying planes, in the armed forces and leading countries, so its inevitable that they will want recognition as monastics as well. Even if they are strictly speaking counterfeit monastics, they should still be supported IMO

D

M

[beautifulthailand99]

They'll be wanting to be Abbot's next .....

http://www.upaya.org/news/2013/02/01/women-and-buddhism-are-women-good-for-religion-from-joan-halifax-phd-founding-abbot-upaya-zen-center/

Edited April 28, 2013 by beautifulthailand99

[sabaijai]

They'll be wanting to be Abbot's next .....

http://www.upaya.org/news/2013/02/01/women-and-buddhism-are-women-good-for-religion-from-joan-halifax-phd-founding-abbot-upaya-zen-center/

Nice article, thanks for the link.

[harrry]

They'll be wanting to be Abbot's next .....

http://www.upaya.org/news/2013/02/01/women-and-buddhism-are-women-good-for-religion-from-joan-halifax-phd-founding-abbot-upaya-zen-center/

Anyone who wants to be an abbot shouldn't be...

[PCA]

They'll be wanting to be Abbot's next .....

http://www.upaya.org/news/2013/02/01/women-and-buddhism-are-women-good-for-religion-from-joan-halifax-phd-founding-abbot-upaya-zen-center/

Anyone who wants to be an abbot shouldn't be...

nobody ever in the history of mankind wanted to become an abbot or interpreter for any sort of religious teachings and this is where all miscommunication started.

[Sarathi]

There's a Tibetan fully ordained Bhikkhuni in Bangkok next week, in a couple of public events, if you are interested to join : www.littlebang.org

[lungmi]

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-asia-21936656

More information.

[camerata]

I recently came across The Time has Come, an essay in Buddhadharma magazine by former Amaravati nuns in support of female ordination and against the "Five Points" that nuns now have to sign up to at the temple. According to them, recent research identifies the eight "weighty" precepts for nuns as "as a later addition to the Buddhist canon, most likely introduced to appease the Brahman power base, which intended to enshrine its view of
women in the new religion after the Buddha’s death." However, they don't provide a reference for this.