American Accused Of Unlawful Encounter With 13 Year Old Girl On Pattaya Beach

[jbrain]

[

Since we know you like to argue about senseless things,

The " old " ID cards were issued to people who are now older than 18 years old, so no need to check if they are underage anymore.

Great post

Since i know you like to make posts without thinking first, the matter in question was not about young people with id cards, but about ID cards and format of numbers

Secondly being in hotel business clearly i know less than yourself on this subject, but the new cards were only introduced in 2007

Who says ?

Since the new cards were introduced in 2007 and at that time the legal minimum age to apply was 15 years, make that every one holding the old type of ID card at least 21 years of age today.

[Basil B]

BTW, thoughout this thread, I haven't seen any explanation or justification for the following part of the OP, which kind of puts the police's role in this matter in question.

Officers from the Police Region 2 Child and Women Protection Unit were monitoring the 13 year old girl around 4am on Tuesday Morning...

If they thought they had an underage girl streetwalking at 4 am in the morning, what exactly would there be to monitor? She was in violation of curfew, assuming she was a juvenile. And if the police weren't sure, all they had to do was approach her and check her ID...

Unless, of course, the police in this case were doing a different kind of monitoring...not aimed at protecting the girl, but rather, aimed at entrapping an unsuspecting farang who thought he was engaging a 19-year-old. So they could make a big publicity case out of a small thing (in the context of Pattaya), all the while ignoring and condoning the vastly larger array of truly illegal and harmful things afoot there.

What next?

Somebody has a gun but the police wait until they kill somebody before arresting them?

[thaiman]

It's a sad day when a group of Expats find it reasonable to discuss and defend how anyone could of got caught out etc etc..Safety in numbers and group mentality at its finest.

If you have any reason to check a persons ID for legal age to start with, something is wrong, that clearly means the person is into young girls or guys to start with.Plenty of women of legal age available in Pattaya if paying for sex is your thing.

As or the comments everyone has been there or slept with hookers etc etc maybe in your own circles but not in the normal world.Its no different then to agree that everyone does drugs from a drug addicts perspective.Fact is they don't.

Im sure many will jump on this post about me being holier than thou etc etc, far from it. After 15 years in Thailand ,just find the whole Thai expat or sex tourist thing well sad really. I mean it is not exactly hard to pull here you can get a date almost anywhere.

As for they guy who's been caught I also wonder why the police didn't step in earlier, but fact is they didn't and he was in bed with a minor end of story.

Maybe you need to read the original report and look at the photos. The guy did ask the girl her age - she lied and got away with it because she appeared to him (and from the back in the photos) to be old enough to be a hooker on Beach Road at 4am.

The Police state that they KNEW she was 13 before the guy approached her, but the police did nothing to protect her - just wait to catch the farang and make a big story.

The farang must have been in a bad way -- recently abandoned by his thai wife. This most certainly does not make child sex acceptable, but it does point to a most unfortunate case of a very vulnerable guy being trapped in every sense of the word.

I hope this goes to court...............

Exactly!

They used the girl as bait to catch a guy and make a big story. It's pure entrapment and typical of Thais to punish the farang and make the girl look as the victim.

According to Thai law the girl is guilty of selling sex. Was she prosecuted as well?

The whole story stinks and is just a pathetic attempt to try and clean up Pattaya and make it more of a resort tourist trap!

[TallGuyJohninBKK]

If the member reports here about the girl involved already being back out on the street plying her trade, that's a pretty good indicator of who the police were out to catch that night/early morning, and who they have totally failed to protect.

[wans]

Im pretty certain the police wouldnt be breaking into farangs rooms without having first ascertained the girls age, on the other hand, I have to admit that I have had a farang tourist policeman break into my room while I was naked so I guess anything can happen here

[Jayman]

Im pretty certain the police wouldnt be breaking into farangs rooms without having first ascertained the girls age, on the other hand, I have to admit that I have had a farang tourist policeman break into my room while I was naked so I guess anything can happen here

1st off it's not "his room" it was the room in a short time hotel. And 2nd the police don't have to "break in", the front desk gives them a key.

[stiggy]

I did read the original post in its entirety on TV and elsewhere in the media.

If you have to ask, they are to young and/ or the punter is obviously into young people.

As for being in a bad way, recently abandoned by his Thai wife etc, simply more excuses that some here find as acceptable. Wake up It's not !

At best the guy is a drunken whoremonger that likes young looking girls, so young in fact that after time enough in Thailand to get married to a Thai, he still has to check there age by asking.

The police as others have pointed out are no angels in this either.

I stick by original post its a sad state of affairs with regards to what happened, and with regards to those trying to justify it.

[Jayman]

I did read the original post in its entirety on TV and elsewhere in the media.

If you have to ask, they are to young and/ or the punter is obviously into young people.

As for being in a bad way, recently abandoned by his Thai wife etc, simply more excuses that some here find as acceptable. Wake up It's not !

At best the guy is a drunken whoremonger that likes young looking girls, so young in fact that after time enough in Thailand to get married to a Thai, he still has to check there age by asking.

The police as others have pointed out are no angels in this either.

I stick by original post its a sad state of affairs with regards to what happened, and with regards to those trying to justify it.

Lots of men are attracted to young looking women. In fact, look at all the jap porn with girls in school uniforms. Even in the gogo bars here they dress in school uniforms. Does that make everyone that likes it a sick pedo? Asking how old a girl in by no means makes her too young. That is just silly talk. I have lots of friends in their early 20's that come to Pattaya (I first came here at 19) and they are not looking for a good time with women older than themselves.

If you want to make a point about older men with younger women then make it. But saying that men should not be sexually attracted to young looking women or lest they be labeled a sick pedo is just wrong.

edit: This post in NO WAY means I condone having sex with children. But I believe that those looking to have sex with young children and men trolling on walking st/beach road at 4am for P4P are a completely different crowd and I would figure that to anyone that has been here for any amount of time that should be quite obvious.

Edited February 1, 2013 by Jayman

[disagree]

I heard that in Pattaya they set up guys with young girls, and if they don't want to pay them off when 'caught' this is what happens.

[stiggy]

Yet again a lot of assumptions being made here,I couldn't give a toss about older guys with younger wives Gfs or boyfriends have plenty of mates out here in that situation.

This guy is 38 giving him lots of scope to have fun with a younger women, yet he still picks one that he has to ask to make sure she's of legal age?

He is not a newbie to Thailand either.

I do not believe this guy went actively looking for a child, but at some point he was unsure, yet he still went ahead that in itself is questionable.

My point is most people would walk away at that point, walk ten paces even at 4am on Beach road and you will have another choice.So why take the one that you are not sure about, bet he had no issue dodging the LB's sober enough for that choice.

Edited February 1, 2013 by stiggy

[cardinalblue]

Sounds like with a good lawyer, he could get off...

sting, monitoring, hadn't done the act, did he touch the girl b/f the police came in, unlawful entry?

I am going to guess this guy probably wasn't targeting an under age girl but got stupid, negligent and the age question didn't rise in his blank mind...

Are they going to charge her other clients for the past three years? Boy, she could do some damage. If the pollice know about her activity more than say one hour and continue to s-called monitor her, are they not guily of letting a crime continue?

If one digs deep into this girl's history, the local police and the situation, it could get ugly....

CB

[johnnycthedog]

Now, I am not condoning what he has done, if he knew that she was actually under age. But, the article actually states, "He revealed that he had paid the girl 700 Baht for her to company him to the room but he was told by her that she was 19 years old and Mr. Rosenthal was allegedly unaware of her real age."

So, admitting that he paid the girl to accompany him to the room, puts him trouble anyway. Is he a pedophile? Not sure, as he did ask her her age, problem is he did not ask for proof as in her I.D.

Nice thought. But how many tourists know how to interpret the Thai year of birth on the ID card. It's not the same as western ID. I'd guess it would be less than 1%. So asking to see the ID would not enlighten them at all.

As with some other posters I smell a set up.

--- Ah just read jbrain's post re new ID card. So I stand corrected. I guess it means that the ID cards I've seen have all been held by adult females because I didn't know about the new ID cards.----

Edited February 1, 2013 by johnnycthedog

[TallGuyJohninBKK]

I agree with Johnny above that this case has all the markings of a setup...

But I disagree with his comments about Thai IDs... As I and others posted on above, the recent version of Thai government issued national IDs -- a version that anyone range 13 to 19 years would have -- has both the Thai year and Western calendar year of birth clearly listed. And the Western calendar year is done in the normal format, as in, 2000 if the girl is 13, or 1994 if she were 19. So it wouldn't be difficult for anyone actually looking at the ID to know where they stood, assuming she wasn't using a fake ID.

[Jingthing]

Yet again a lot of assumptions being made here,I couldn't give a toss about older guys with younger wives Gfs or boyfriends have plenty of mates out here in that situation.

This guy is 38 giving him lots of scope to have fun with a younger women, yet he still picks one that he has to ask to make sure she's of legal age?

He is not a newbie to Thailand either.

I do not believe this guy went actively looking for a child, but at some point he was unsure, yet he still went ahead that in itself is questionable.

My point is most people would walk away at that point, walk ten paces even at 4am on Beach road and you will have another choice.So why take the one that you are not sure about, bet he had no issue dodging the LB's sober enough for that choice.

Yeah, there is consensus here that at the very least he made a big mistake. Worthy of ruining his life? Very doubtful.

[johnnycthedog]

BTW, thoughout this thread, I haven't seen any explanation or justification for the following part of the OP, which kind of puts the police's role in this matter in question.

Officers from the Police Region 2 Child and Women Protection Unit were monitoring the 13 year old girl around 4am on Tuesday Morning...

If they thought they had an underage girl streetwalking at 4 am in the morning, what exactly would there be to monitor? She was in violation of curfew, assuming she was a juvenile. And if the police weren't sure, all they had to do was approach her and check her ID...

Unless, of course, the police in this case were doing a different kind of monitoring...not aimed at protecting the girl, but rather, aimed at entrapping an unsuspecting farang who thought he was engaging a 19-year-old. So they could make a big publicity case out of a small thing (in the context of Pattaya), all the while ignoring and condoning the vastly larger array of truly illegal and harmful things afoot there.

A book called "Thai Private Detective" (or something like that) was written by a NZ guy fluent in Thai who worked as a PD in Thailand for many years. One of the chapters concerns an underage Thai girl selling sex to foreigners in Bangkok. She was supplied with a mobile phone by the Thai police and would contact them when she snared a foreigner and was about to engage in sex. The police would bust the foreigner who upon the payment of a huge fine would be released after being held in jail. The girl, of course, would earn a commission on the scam.

Not saying this is the situation here but it looks as though the police were waiting for the crime to be committed before acting to "protect the young girl".

[jbrain]

Yet again a lot of assumptions being made here,I couldn't give a toss about older guys with younger wives Gfs or boyfriends have plenty of mates out here in that situation.

This guy is 38 giving him lots of scope to have fun with a younger women, yet he still picks one that he has to ask to make sure she's of legal age?

He is not a newbie to Thailand either.

I do not believe this guy went actively looking for a child, but at some point he was unsure, yet he still went ahead that in itself is questionable.

My point is most people would walk away at that point, walk ten paces even at 4am on Beach road and you will have another choice.So why take the one that you are not sure about, bet he had no issue dodging the LB's sober enough for that choice.

What is questionable with going ahead after being confirmed by the lady in question that she was of the legal age ?

[johnnycthedog]

I agree with Johnny above that this case has all the markings of a setup...

But I disagree with his comments about Thai IDs... As I and others posted on above, the recent version of Thai government issued national IDs -- a version that anyone range 13 to 19 years would have -- has both the Thai year and Western calendar year of birth clearly listed. And the Western calendar year is done in the normal format, as in, 2000 if the girl is 13, or 1994 if she were 19. So it wouldn't be difficult for anyone actually looking at the ID to know where they stood, assuming she wasn't using a fake ID.

Yes I edited my post after reading about the new ID's issued from 2007. Sometimes 15 pages of posts are a lot to read.

The funny thing is I've never looked closely at my Thai stepson's ID issued in 2010 when he was 20. And yes there was the western style date of birth on it. Good that we learn something new everyday.

[Jayman]

Yet again a lot of assumptions being made here,I couldn't give a toss about older guys with younger wives Gfs or boyfriends have plenty of mates out here in that situation.

This guy is 38 giving him lots of scope to have fun with a younger women, yet he still picks one that he has to ask to make sure she's of legal age?

He is not a newbie to Thailand either.

I do not believe this guy went actively looking for a child, but at some point he was unsure, yet he still went ahead that in itself is questionable.

My point is most people would walk away at that point, walk ten paces even at 4am on Beach road and you will have another choice.So why take the one that you are not sure about, bet he had no issue dodging the LB's sober enough for that choice.

this whole claim that he "had to ask" is preposterous. I ask every girl I meet in a bar here how old she is. Do I have to? Hell no. I do because age is a very big part of the social culture here in Thailand and also very hard to determine from looking a girl/woman that is all dolled up.

The way I see it, if I don't have to ask how old she is cause it's obvious she's very old then I keep walking. Again, I don't want to have sex with children but I'm not as attracted to older women as I am younger.

[Tolley]

Anyone who thinks this is anything but a scam knows nothing about how Thailand operates.

Of course this case makes anyone nervous who engages in P4P activities because it just highlights that you are never safe here from any sort of scam or set up and that if you let your guard down then you are in big trouble.

At the very least you could be in big financial trouble or worse still not have the financial resources to pay your way out and then you could be looking as some very serious jail time.

The whole thing stinks and is just another one of the many ways you get can burned in the LOS.

Caveat Emptor

[Rimmer]

Flame removed

[CHRISTIANa9]

Any update on what happened to the guy? Jail, bailed, pay-off?

[Thorgal]

Any update on what happened to the guy? Jail, bailed, pay-off?

Still aunder arrest as per Thai legal system.

Police may hold him for questioning for up to 48 hours without judicial review. Then, police must either release him or take him before a judge for a “show cause” hearing. There, the judge will either order his release or decide that there are reasonable grounds to continue detention for 12 days while the alleged crime is investigated.

US Consulate will send a consular officer, attempt to address any concerns he may have regarding treatment while imprisoned, and assist him in contacting family and friends for support (financial or otherwise).

You will probably never hear from him anymore from the local tabloids. The names have been changed...to protect....

[jbrain]

Any update on what happened to the guy? Jail, bailed, pay-off?

Still aunder arrest as per Thai legal system.

Police may hold him for questioning for up to 48 hours without judicial review. Then, police must either release him or take him before a judge for a “show cause” hearing. There, the judge will either order his release or decide that there are reasonable grounds to continue detention for 12 days while the alleged crime is investigated.

US Consulate will send a consular officer, attempt to address any concerns he may have regarding treatment while imprisoned, and assist him in contacting family and friends for support (financial or otherwise).

You will probably never hear from him anymore from the local tabloids. The names have been changed...to protect....

So since it has been more than 72 hours already, he must have been to court already.

Your post sounds just like a summon of the Thai law or do you have any real information about the court case.

What names have been changed> At least the Americans name hasn't been changed to protect him.

[Jingthing]

Updates and followups on these kinds of stories are rather unusual in the local so called news media.

[jpinx]

Is there a link to pattaya court proceedings anywhere? Even if it's in Thai it'd make fascinating reading

[Thorgal]

Any update on what happened to the guy? Jail, bailed, pay-off?

Still aunder arrest as per Thai legal system.

Police may hold him for questioning for up to 48 hours without judicial review. Then, police must either release him or take him before a judge for a “show cause” hearing. There, the judge will either order his release or decide that there are reasonable grounds to continue detention for 12 days while the alleged crime is investigated.

US Consulate will send a consular officer, attempt to address any concerns he may have regarding treatment while imprisoned, and assist him in contacting family and friends for support (financial or otherwise).

You will probably never hear from him anymore from the local tabloids. The names have been changed...to protect....

So since it has been more than 72 hours already, he must have been to court already.

Your post sounds just like a summon of the Thai law or do you have any real information about the court case.

What names have been changed> At least the Americans name hasn't been changed to protect him.

Just a summon of the Thai law like you say.

The outcome of all similar precedents from this year and last year are never reported.

as example :

[Jambo]

4am in the morning after a few beers, i can understand mistaking a 17 or 18 year old girl as looking possibly acceptable.

But 13??

I know Neal through scuba diving, and i wish him well, but it looks like he has royally xxxxxx up with this one.

Edited February 6, 2013 by metisdead

[jpinx]

4am in the morning after a few beers, i can understand mistaking a 17 or 18 year old girl as looking possibly acceptable.

But 13??

I know Neal through scuba diving, and i wish him well, but it looks like he has royally xxxxxx up with this one.

Do you have any news of what's happened to him now ?

It'd be very interesting to hear how this gets handled and what the outcome is - given the overly-obvious entrapment.

[lemoncake]

[

Since we know you like to argue about senseless things,

The " old " ID cards were issued to people who are now older than 18 years old, so no need to check if they are underage anymore.

Great post

Since i know you like to make posts without thinking first, the matter in question was not about young people with id cards, but about ID cards and format of numbers

Secondly being in hotel business clearly i know less than yourself on this subject, but the new cards were only introduced in 2007

Who says ?

Since the new cards were introduced in 2007 and at that time the legal minimum age to apply was 15 years, make that every one holding the old type of ID card at least 21 years of age today.

who says what?

the question raised was AGAIN, what format is used, question did not specify young or old.

2007 date of new cards was just an educational information for you since yous stated old cards were really old, which again was incorrect

Edited February 1, 2013 by lemoncake

[Thorgal]

4am in the morning after a few beers, i can understand mistaking a 17 or 18 year old girl as looking possibly acceptable.

But 13??

I know Neal through scuba diving, and i wish him well, but it looks like he has royally <deleted> up with this one.

Do you have any news of what's happened to him now ?

It'd be very interesting to hear how this gets handled and what the outcome is - given the overly-obvious entrapment.

How he will be handled ?

THE THAI JUDICIAL PROCESS

Arrest: Police may hold you for questioning for up to 48 hours without judicial review. Then, police must either release you or take you before a judge for a “show cause” hearing. There, the judge will either order your release or decide that there are reasonable grounds to continue detention for 12 days while the alleged crime is investigated.

Investigative Detention: At this point, police will transfer you from their holding cell to a remand prison. (See “The Thai Penal System,” below.) Once the police have finished their investigation, they will pass the case to the public prosecutor, who will decide if there is enough evidence to file charges. Until the prosecutor files charges, a judge must reauthorize detention every 12 days. A judge may authorize a maximum of seven 12-day investigative detention periods (84 days total). For most offenses, there is the possibility of release on bail, but you must usually provide cash or assets located in Thailand as surety.

Filing Charges: No later than 91 days after your arrest (84 days of investigation, plus 7 days for prosecutorial review), the prosecutor must file formal charges. If the judge agrees with the charges, the case enters the pre-trial period. Your attorney, the prosecutor and the court will negotiate a trial date based on their schedules and availability.

Pre-Trial: This period can last a few weeks or a few months depending on the court’s caseload and the negotiated trial date. There is no discovery process in the Thai court system, so you will not have access to evidence before the trial. In general, there is little you can do to affect the way your case is presented. Most Thai attorneys make these decisions with little consultation with their clients.

Trial: There are no jury trials in Thailand. Instead, a single judge usually decides misdemeanor cases, while two or more judges are required for more serious cases. Trials are conducted in Thai, and translation might not be available. Depending on the nature of the case, your trial could take one day or several days. You will not know the outcome immediately. The verdict reading will take place several weeks after the trial.

Sentencing: There are no mandatory rules about sentencing in criminal cases, but Thai judges must consider all circumstances pertaining to an offense as well as its severity. The usual penalty for a criminal conviction is a fine, imprisonment, or both. It is sometimes possible to get a lesser or suspended sentence by admitting guilt. However, this might not prevent you from being deported after trial. Sentences in drug-related cases can be much more severe than those for similar offenses in the U.S.

Appeal: If convicted, you have 30 days to decide whether to appeal. You can appeal either the guilty verdict or the severity of the sentence. The prosecutor can also appeal if you are acquitted or the state considers the sentence too light. Appeals are reviews of the case record by a panel of judges. There are two levels of appeal: Courts of Appeal (there is one in Chiang Mai) and the Supreme Court (in Bangkok). Appeal to either of these levels can take months or years. If you are convicted and have finished your appeals, you may seek a Royal Pardon by application through prison authorities.

THE THAI PENAL SYSTEM

Overcrowding is common in Thai jails and prisons, and cells might be cramped. You will be provided with meals, though the type and quantity of food might be very different from what you are used to. You may receive visitors during designated hours. They can purchase additional food, toiletries, and comfort items for you at a special prison store. They also can deposit money in your prison account for you to use at the store. You may send and receive letters, but the prison administration will review mail and can withhold any items it deems insulting or defamatory.

If you are convicted, the Thai Department of Corrections can transfer you to a prison anywhere in Thailand. Foreigners often are transferred to Bangkwang Central Prison in Bankgok. After serving their sentences, foreigners typically are deported.

PRISONER TRANSFER

Under certain circumstances, Americans imprisoned in Thailand may apply to be transferred to a prison in the U.S. To be considered for transfer, your conviction must be final (that is, you have exhaused or dropped any appeals), and you must have served one-third of any term of imprisonment.

• For information on international prisoner transfer out of Thailand and Royal Pardons: Thai Ministry of Justice, Department of Corrections.
  
• For information on international prisoner transfer to the United States: U.S. Department of Justice, International Prisoner Transfer Program.