American Accused Of Unlawful Encounter With 13 Year Old Girl On Pattaya Beach

[jpinx]

In a case like this, is the accused held on remand or given bail?

If convicted, would he be deported (after serving time in Thailand) and, if so, would he face charges in the US?

Bail is possible, if convicted it means blacklisting.

There will be no charges in the US if he is sentenced in Thailand. You cannot be convicted twice for the same offence. If he would skip bail and flee the country to the US he could face prosecution in the US.

This is not accurate.

Under the US PROTECT Act (18 U.S.C. § 2423©) a foreign prosecution does not affect the ability of the US to prosecute, under the dual sovereign exception to the double jeopardy protection of the Fifth Amendment.

This differs from the laws of the other countries, notably Australia, which bars subsequent prosecutions.

If that is true (and I have no reason to doubt you) my opinion of USA law takes another hammering.....

Edited to add -

Of course the "Philadelphia" lawyers in USA can probably squeeze a separate charge out of the same incident - it will depend on what he's charged with in Thailand - if anything......

Edited January 30, 2013 by jpinx

[inzman]

Does anybody know for sure if she is 13? Could be a lie, hence the setup. It's all smoke and mirrors here. Don't believe anything without irrefutable proof.

[mopar71]

This is a hard one, as you all know,it is so hard to judge age here, mothers and daughters look more like sisters, i have guessed 30 year olds as 15 and 13 year olds as over 20, so very hard to define, especially after a few drinks in a place where it is common knowledge you can buy sex, of course there is no excuse for any one who genuinely takes to minors, they should be punished to the full extent of the law!

And a tourist might not expect a 13 yr old to be out at 4am selling intimate services.

[Thailand1977]

Does anybody know for sure if she is 13? Could be a lie, hence the setup. It's all smoke and mirrors here. Don't believe anything without irrefutable proof.

Surely she'd have had to pass security of some kind at his hotel/short time room which would have needed an ID card.

Who knows in the land of illusions.

[jpinx]

This is a hard one, as you all know,it is so hard to judge age here, mothers and daughters look more like sisters, i have guessed 30 year olds as 15 and 13 year olds as over 20, so very hard to define, especially after a few drinks in a place where it is common knowledge you can buy sex, of course there is no excuse for any one who genuinely takes to minors, they should be punished to the full extent of the law!

And a tourist might not expect a 13 yr old to be out at 4am selling intimate services.

He's not a tourist - do try to keep up

[Thorgal]

Does anybody know for sure if she is 13? Could be a lie, hence the setup. It's all smoke and mirrors here. Don't believe anything without irrefutable proof.

Surely she'd have had to pass security of some kind at his hotel/short time room which would have needed an ID card.

Who knows in the land of illusions.

By the way, the Hotel can also be prosecuted : they accepted a prostitution case with minors involved...

[prestburypark]

The cops should have intervened on the spot , anything other than that is b*****it.

Oi you, she.s 13, on your way or you will be nicked.

[jpinx]

Does anybody know for sure if she is 13? Could be a lie, hence the setup. It's all smoke and mirrors here. Don't believe anything without irrefutable proof.

Surely she'd have had to pass security of some kind at his hotel/short time room which would have needed an ID card.

Who knows in the land of illusions.

Many hotels turn a blind eye to grubby, fake ID's - they just want a name and the money for the extra person sleeping-over.

To really prove the girls age would be non-trivial since the mother is possibly in on the deal.

[lemoncake]

This is a hard one, as you all know,it is so hard to judge age here, mothers and daughters look more like sisters, i have guessed 30 year olds as 15 and 13 year olds as over 20, so very hard to define, especially after a few drinks in a place where it is common knowledge you can buy sex, of course there is no excuse for any one who genuinely takes to minors, they should be punished to the full extent of the law!

And a tourist might not expect a 13 yr old to be out at 4am selling intimate services.

no one in their right mind expects a 13 year old out at 4 am selling herself openly

[R123]

Seems no one here has had actual sight of the girl. It may be she looks only 10 or 11.

I reckon what happened is that the Yank saw the opportunity of buying some young flesh and he foolishly ended up in the mess he is in.

Edited January 30, 2013 by R123

[lemoncake]

Does anybody know for sure if she is 13? Could be a lie, hence the setup. It's all smoke and mirrors here. Don't believe anything without irrefutable proof.

Surely she'd have had to pass security of some kind at his hotel/short time room which would have needed an ID card.

Who knows in the land of illusions.

By the way, the Hotel can also be prosecuted : they accepted a prostitution case with minors involved...

yes Sherlok, they should be but they are not, , not even raided by immigration which again only leads to one direction

[jpinx]

Does anybody know for sure if she is 13? Could be a lie, hence the setup. It's all smoke and mirrors here. Don't believe anything without irrefutable proof.

Surely she'd have had to pass security of some kind at his hotel/short time room which would have needed an ID card.

Who knows in the land of illusions.

By the way, the Hotel can also be prosecuted : they accepted a prostitution case with minors involved...

If it really was a style of entrapment the guy accused has lots of options of counter-suing lots of people -- the girl, the hotel, the child-carers, the police, if he has a good lawyer - but he might not have the stomach for that world of pain......

[WaywardWind]

In a case like this, is the accused held on remand or given bail?

If convicted, would he be deported (after serving time in Thailand) and, if so, would he face charges in the US?

Bail is possible, if convicted it means blacklisting.

There will be no charges in the US if he is sentenced in Thailand. You cannot be convicted twice for the same offence. If he would skip bail and flee the country to the US he could face prosecution in the US.

This is not accurate.

Under the US PROTECT Act (18 U.S.C. § 2423©) a foreign prosecution does not affect the ability of the US to prosecute, under the dual sovereign exception to the double jeopardy protection of the Fifth Amendment.

This differs from the laws of the other countries, notably Australia, which bars subsequent prosecutions.

If that is true (and I have no reason to doubt you) my opinion of USA law takes another hammering.....

Edited to add -

Of course the "Philadelphia" lawyers in USA can probably squeeze a separate charge out of the same incident - it will depend on what he's charged with in Thailand - if anything......

It is accurate - I looked it up. Google foreign conviction, 18 U.S.C 2423©, and double jeopardy, and you will find the same multiple sources that I did. Controversial to say the least, and infrequently used, but it has withstood constitutional challenge by those who were so charged after they returned to the US.

[lemoncake]

Does anybody know for sure if she is 13? Could be a lie, hence the setup. It's all smoke and mirrors here. Don't believe anything without irrefutable proof.

Surely she'd have had to pass security of some kind at his hotel/short time room which would have needed an ID card.

Who knows in the land of illusions.

By the way, the Hotel can also be prosecuted : they accepted a prostitution case with minors involved...

If it really was a style of entrapment the guy accused has lots of options of counter-suing lots of people -- the girl, the hotel, the child-carers, the police, if he has a good lawyer - but he might not have the stomach for that world of pain......

it would be cheaper to pay the so called victim than to get a lawyer and end up in a 5 year court battle

[jpinx]

it would be cheaper to pay the so called victim than to get a lawyer and end up in a 5 year court battle

Yes -- I agree -- My thinking was based on the mis-apprehension that he would not be charged in USA if the Thai courts had already tried him. Unfortunately that seems not to be the case

[Thailand1977]

it would be cheaper to pay the so called victim than to get a lawyer and end up in a 5 year court battle

Being as he is a diving instructor im guessing he won't have millions of baht sloshing around for when the unexpected happens. But you never know.

[TommyDee]

13 years old. On beach road. Why? Here’s a guess.. either someone pimped her or she is homeless. Sadly the former is the most likely and lets hope he/she or it gets caught in a follow up operation.

If she was on BR at 4 in the morning, that says that either she overslept, had already been with someone before or was out that late to avoid being too visible to the authorities.

She couldn’t sell her body if there weren’t people out there willing to buy kids, and she is a Kid.

This guy ISNT A TOURIST he lives and works in Thailand. He has a Thai stepdaughter. He fully knows the deal here regarding age, looks etc.

In most countries, regardless of money being paid, it would be statutory rape charges for the bloke.

I have lived here for a reasonable amount of time and seen as many bars as most. I have yet to see a 13 year old who, to anyone who lives here, looks above the age of 13 in any way. Most look to be about 7 compared to western children.

Ideally the kid would be taken into care and given serious councelling for the future, the Pimp arrested and thrown to the Lions, along with the Nonce.

[jpinx]

it would be cheaper to pay the so called victim than to get a lawyer and end up in a 5 year court battle

Being as he is a diving instructor im guessing he won't have millions of baht sloshing around for when the unexpected happens. But you never know.

Someone also mentioned earlier in this thread that they thought he has a thai wife. What he really needed was a few friends with him to stop him getting into this mess.....

[Jingthing]

...

I have lived here for a reasonable amount of time and seen as many bars as most. I have yet to see a 13 year old who, to anyone who lives here, looks above the age of 13 in any way. Most look to be about 7 compared to western children.

...

I find that an odd assertion. If I'm out and about and see Thai people and it's not as if they are wearing a large sign saying their age. Sure if you asked me how old is this one how old is that one I could take a guess, but it would be only a guess. How would you know how rare it is for age and looks not to match here unless you were a specialist in teaching that age group or something like that? This isn't about generalizations. It's about this one underage person. Is it conceivable that this SPECIFIC girl could appear to be of legal age or not? I would agree it would be unlikely but unless you actually saw how that girl appeared that night you couldn't venture an INFORMED opinion. Yes, let's hang the guy because of anecdotal generalizations and impressions. This man's life is on the line. I think it is fair to know if this SPECIFIC girl could conceivably be taken for not underage. Edited January 30, 2013 by Jingthing

[Thailand1977]

it would be cheaper to pay the so called victim than to get a lawyer and end up in a 5 year court battle

Being as he is a diving instructor im guessing he won't have millions of baht sloshing around for when the unexpected happens. But you never know.

Someone also mentioned earlier in this thread that they thought he has a thai wife. What he really needed was a few friends with him to stop him getting into this mess.....

Do expats actually have friends in Thailand, i thought at best they had drinking buddies.

Whatever happens from now until the day he dies his name and picture will be on the internet for whats deemed a heinous crime, for what seems like a drunken mistake at 4 in the morning that could happen to many on this forum.

When you go into agogos the most sort after girls are the youngest pretty ones, fresh from the farm ... kind of says something about what the markets willing to pay a premium for.

Edited January 30, 2013 by Thailand1977

[lemoncake]

it would be cheaper to pay the so called victim than to get a lawyer and end up in a 5 year court battle

Being as he is a diving instructor im guessing he won't have millions of baht sloshing around for when the unexpected happens. But you never know.

Someone also mentioned earlier in this thread that they thought he has a thai wife. What he really needed was a few friends with him to stop him getting into this mess.....

it was me, but i do not know, just had staff with same surname. though i doubt wife would want to help him in this case

[jpinx]

...

I have lived here for a reasonable amount of time and seen as many bars as most. I have yet to see a 13 year old who, to anyone who lives here, looks above the age of 13 in any way. Most look to be about 7 compared to western children.

...

I find that an odd assertion. If I'm out and about and see Thai people and it's not as if they are wearing a large sign saying their age. Sure if you asked me how old is this one how old is that one I could take a guess, but it would be only a guess. How would you know how rare it is for age and looks not to match here unless you were a specialist in teaching that age group or something like that? This isn't about generalizations. It's about this one underage person. Is it conceivable that this SPECIFIC girl could appear to be of legal age or not? I would agree it would be unlikely but unless you actually saw how that girl appeared that night you couldn't venture an INFORMED opinion. Yes, let's hang the guy because of anecdotal generalizations and impressions. This man's life is on the line. I think it is fair to know if this SPECIFIC girl could conceivably be taken for not underage.

Have to agree - I have met girls of 25 that look 13 and girls of 13 that look 25. My local hairdresser is a lady who takes pride in being able to make anyone look what ever age they want - and she can fool the locals

[FDog]

I have edited my earlier post to read "child". I meant to say an under age person who is a child.

By the way: most legal systems say that it is no defence in law that a person who solicits an under age person believes she or he was over age. This principle applies even if the under age says she is old enough or has some (false) identity saying she is over age.

What such an innocent belief (about the age of the girl) may do is reduce(mitigate) the sentence after conviction.

Whether the above is fair or not is likewise irrelevant.

"ignorance of the law is no excuse".

In which country are you referring when you refer to having underage sex it is no defence to say you thought she was of age?

I know in Australia it is definitely a defence if you can show you had reasonably considered she was of age. I have seen people get off in court numerous times for just that defence.

Of course that doesn't mean you just say you thought she was 19. It must be what a 'reasonable' person would think taking into consideration all factors. I have seen many times a guy have sex with underage girls in court and the witnesses for the PROSECUTION have said that the girl had told them that she told the guy she was over 16 when in fact she wasn't. Not guilty.

I have no problem with an entrapement style where a girl of 19 says she is underage and the guy takes her home. He would deserve everything he gets.

But for the life of me I just can't imagine this girl, who police had seen offering herself to a number of men that night, actually telling the guy she was 13. She'd want the business and know only too well that to say such a thing would reduce her chances of a nice pay for the night. I would think it obvious she would say she was over the age so that she could secure the transaction.

The guy was just unlucky or had one too many beers to have his senses up to speed in order to be suspicious and double check the ID. Though even if he did that it could well have been a false ID and he'd still be none the wiser and think he was fine.

This whole thing just sounds all too set up to me.

[jpinx]

it would be cheaper to pay the so called victim than to get a lawyer and end up in a 5 year court battle

Being as he is a diving instructor im guessing he won't have millions of baht sloshing around for when the unexpected happens. But you never know.

Someone also mentioned earlier in this thread that they thought he has a thai wife. What he really needed was a few friends with him to stop him getting into this mess.....

Do expats actually have friends in Thailand, i thought at best they had drinking buddies.

Whatever happens from now until the day he dies his name and picture will be on the internet for whats deemed a heinous crime, for what seems like a drunken mistake at 4 in the morning that could happen to many on this forum.

When you go into agogos the most sort after girls are the youngest pretty ones, fresh from the farm ... kind of says something about what the markets willing to pay a premium for.

Meeeaaiou!!!! You really need to find some true friends I don't drink, some of my friends do, but we are certainly not drinking buddies

[lemoncake]

Meeeaaiou!!!! You really need to find some true friends I don't drink, some of my friends do, but we are certainly not drinking buddies

Making new friends in Thailand is very difficult because there way more scammers than the decent people and the decent people usually have their own circle or consider anyone they meet as also being a scammer.

All the people i have met in my 11 years here, all been nothing but scammers, who start of to borrow 100 baht and end up trying to live off you(especially if you are doing well)

[ALFREDO]

Seems no one here has had actual sight of the girl. It may be she looks only 10 or 11.

I reckon what happened is that the Yank saw the opportunity of buying some young flesh and he foolishly ended up in the mess he is in.

Click also on the LINKS provided and look exactly all photos in threads, than you, will sometime see more, know more.

Does that backside and size look to belong to a 10 - 11 year girl to you?

Edited January 30, 2013 by ALFREDO

[TheWalkingMan]

And this guy lives here??

I know a beach road troller and I tell him to leave that area alone or at least verify the rentals' age. Of course he tells me that he can always tell when they are over 18. Lots of guys see something, the blood begins to flow and they get stupid as frack.

Always ask to check the ID card and if you are staying at a place with no guest verification, snap a pic of her ID and send it to yourself. Just in case she nicks it while you are taking a shower or slipped you a mickey.

[ALFREDO]

This guy ISNT A TOURIST he lives and works in Thailand. He has a Thai stepdaughter. He fully knows the deal here regarding age, looks etc.

In most countries, regardless of money being paid, it would be statutory rape charges for the bloke.

I have lived here for a reasonable amount of time and seen as many bars as most. I have yet to see a 13 year old who, to anyone who lives here, looks above the age of 13 in any way. Most look to be about 7 compared to western children.

Hey, give me a brake, is all not sooo clear! To run around in Bars a lot, makes you an Expert in seeing children grow up?

I live with Thai families in Isaan since 15 years and run in Bars since 1990 you Expert!

First look at the Posting with a photo I just made.

second, my 31 year old GFs (2 boys with her 8 + 5) niece is born March 2003 = 9 years and 10 month old and

is not strong built, body, normal, has small breasts and can use all clothes and shoes from my GF who is small in size and frame.

Her ankles,are, as I just checked some days ago a bigger perimeter than my GFs ankles.

That is 10 years old and body same a 31 year old small framed Thai woman with 41 kg!

So keep your expertise where it belongs, to yourself!

Edited January 30, 2013 by ALFREDO

[Spoonman]

This guy ISNT A TOURIST he lives and works in Thailand. He has a Thai stepdaughter. He fully knows the deal here regarding age, looks etc.

In most countries, regardless of money being paid, it would be statutory rape charges for the bloke.

Ima gunna take a wild stab in the dark here but do you reckon the reason why he asked her age is because yes indeed he does know the deal here and was ensuring she was legal tender.

[jpinx]

Seems no one here has had actual sight of the girl. It may be she looks only 10 or 11.

I reckon what happened is that the Yank saw the opportunity of buying some young flesh and he foolishly ended up in the mess he is in.

Click also on the LINKS provided and look exactly all photos in threads, than you, will sometime see more, know more.

Does that backside and size look to belong to a 10 - 11 year girl to you?

What links ? This thread is a bit long to go through in details again,,,,,

OK - here's some ideas -

This photo

http://www.pattayaon...-11-270x200.jpg

shows her shoulder at a little below the lime coloured shirt guy, and this photo

http://www.pattayaon...-21-270x200.jpg

shows him to be an equally small amount shorter than the guy himself - and he is a reasonably big guy. This points to a girl of considerably more stature than the average thai 13 year old.

From the report --

<Quote> Officers from the Police Region 2 Child and Women Protection Unit were monitoring the 13 year old girl around 4am on Tuesday Morning and were about to detain her and take her into care when they saw an approach by the American, later named as Mr. Neal Rosenthal. The pair talked for a while and then went back to a Central Pattaya Guest House together. </Quote>

So they *KNEW* the girl was 13 and yet they allowed her to solicit? Was she paying the usual commission to be allowed to work?

Edited January 30, 2013 by jpinx