Chiang Mai Farangs - In Perspective

[harrry]

Thanks for the detailed reply.

But I'm still not convinced that Grandjean was talking about the Kampang Din.

The Finlayson Map is visual evidence, of a sort, and reinforced by the added note "before the inner wall was removed."

Your evident bias against missionaries has possibly led you to underestimate Grandjean as a reliable witness.

You've probably read Carl Bock's Temples and Elephants. Did a more obnoxious farang ever set foot in Lanna Thai? His tactlessness was almost comical. Not to mention the fact that he plundered and desecrated religious sites as well. Yet his writings and observations are generally accepted as factual.

Maybe it's a good idea to put aside our prejudices when evaluating historical information.

As observers many missionaries did report an accurate account of things at least through their eyes. They did try to at least view first hand. Personally I have little respect for their in my view cultural genocide but as reporters they are often true.

[CMHomeboy78]

'But how can the map be explained? In my opinion - and not to labor the point - the Finlayson Map is a symbolic representation of Chiang Mai as a celestial city with the royal residence as Mt. Meru at the center'.

I second that.

Thank you for a fascinating contribution.

And all the best to you and your projects.

[CMHomeboy78]

Thanks for the detailed reply.

But I'm still not convinced that Grandjean was talking about the Kampang Din.

The Finlayson Map is visual evidence, of a sort, and reinforced by the added note "before the inner wall was removed."

Your evident bias against missionaries has possibly led you to underestimate Grandjean as a reliable witness.

You've probably read Carl Bock's Temples and Elephants. Did a more obnoxious farang ever set foot in Lanna Thai? His tactlessness was almost comical. Not to mention the fact that he plundered and desecrated religious sites as well. Yet his writings and observations are generally accepted as factual.

Maybe it's a good idea to put aside our prejudices when evaluating historical information.

As observers many missionaries did report an accurate account of things at least through their eyes. They did try to at least view first hand. Personally I have little respect for their in my view cultural genocide but as reporters they are often true.

I would agree with that as well. Missionaries have left some of the most valuable and accurate accounts of life in 19th century Chiang Mai. McGilvary's book, A Half Century Among the Siamese and the Lao is a good example.

The Payap University archives have letters, photos, and other material from missionary families in Chiang Mai that I would very much like to have access to. I'm working on that.

Thanks for your input.

[CMHomeboy78]

Thanks for the detailed reply.

But I'm still not convinced that Grandjean was talking about the Kampang Din.

The Finlayson Map is visual evidence, of a sort, and reinforced by the added note "before the inner wall was removed."

Your evident bias against missionaries has possibly led you to underestimate Grandjean as a reliable witness.

You've probably read Carl Bock's Temples and Elephants. Did a more obnoxious farang ever set foot in Lanna Thai? His tactlessness was almost comical. Not to mention the fact that he plundered and desecrated religious sites as well. Yet his writings and observations are generally accepted as factual.

Maybe it's a good idea to put aside our prejudices when evaluating historical information.

I'm not going to argue the point at length.

I just outlined what I thought was a plausible explanation for Grandjean's reference to a "double girdle of walls" in saying that it was possibly the Kampang Din that he was referring to. I have no vested interest in promoting this view.

Another thing that makes me doubt that the Chiang Mai fortifications ever included double walls and moats is the fact that no trace of an outer [or inner] wall has ever been found. Surely if one had existed - even one going back to the time of King Mengrai - some remains, above or below ground would exist.

As far as I know, it is only the Finlayson Map and the word of Grandjean that say so. Even taken together they don't amount to a compelling case for the existence of double walls and moats defending Chiang Mai.

I am also not going on the defensive against a charge of "bias against missionaries." The fact that many, if not most of them are brainless bigots is self-evident. There have always been exceptions, I'm sure we can agree.

I'm not anti-Christian in any way.

Although I have a profound respect for, and interest in Buddhism, I've been a Catholic since a few days after I came into this world, and that's the way I'll go out.

Amen Bro.

[CMHomeboy78]

Chiang Mai Farangs - In Perspective.

The Schomburgk Mission to Chiang Mai in 1860, and some introductory comments about the arrival of the Rev. Daniel McGilvary in 1867.

Sir Robert Schomburgk [1804-1865] was a German-born explorer for Great Britain who carried out geographical, ethnological, and botanical studies in South America and the West Indies. He also held diplomatic posts for Great Britain in the Dominican Republic and Siam.

As a young man in 1826 he went to the United States and worked as a clerk in Boston, Philadelphia, and Richmond where he became a partner in a tobacco exporting business.

In 1830 he surveyed Anegada in the British Virgin Islands and sent to the Royal Geographical Society in London a report that so impressed the directors that he was entrusted with conducting an expedition of exploration to British Guiana in 1835.

He fulfilled his mission with great success and in 1841 returned to Guiana as a British government official to survey the colony and fix its eastern and western boundries.

On his return to London in 1844 Schomburgk presented a report of his journey to the Geographical Society, for which he was knighted by Queen Victoria in 1845.

In 1848 he was appointed British Consul to the Dominican Republic, where he served until 1857, when he was promoted to the position of British Consul-General of Siam.

When the British government became interested in exploiting the rich teak forests of the north around Chiang Mai, they sent Schomburgk in 1859 on a diplomatic mission to establish a British vice-consulate in that city.

The idea of a vice-consulate, later a consulate, was revived repeatedly by later consuls until it was finally established in 1884.

According to Reginald LeMay [An Asian Arcady. Cambridge, 1926], Schomburgk "...left only a meagre account of his journey. He went as far as Raheng [Tak] by boat, and then continued the journey on elephants. He passed through Lamphun and reached Chiengmai on 11 February 1860, the whole trip occupying just under two months. From Chiengmai he went by the trade route to Moulmein. Thus becoming one of the earliest, if not the first, European to reach the Gulf of Bengal from the Gulf of Siam via Chiengmai since the ill-fated Thomas Samuel at the beginning of the 17th century."

In a letter to his cousin, Schomburgk records some of his impressions... "After 43 days since our departure we arrived in Chiengmai. This town - the most northerly point of my journey - has a circumference of approximately 3 English miles, and is the residence of a Viceroy who, however, at that time was in Bangkok. The town itself is surrounded by walls, bastions and towers - the suburbs by palisades. The inhabitants are of fine physique and lighter in colour than the Siamese, above all the fairer sex, among whom many as regards their complexion can be compared to Italian women. Unlike the Siamese they wear their hair which is coal-black and shiny, a la chinoise, whereas the Siamese women cut it short, only leaving a round patch covered with hair, similar to those of a brush, on their heads. The unmarried women wear dresses woven out of silk, which reach only half-way; the bosom is uncovered - they merely throw a shawl of light silk and bright colours [which hides nothing] across their bosoms. The married women, on the other hand, conceal their bosoms with a thicker shawl, thrown crosswise across their breasts.

I had spent 13 days in Chiengmai before I could leave the city. From there I wanted to penetrate across the large mountain range to Moulmein on the Bay of Bengal. This route was considered unsafe in view of wild Indian tribes, and so I was given an escort of 140 men and 39 elephants. Two noblemen were in charge of the caravan.

On 26 April, 135 days after my departure, I and my companions safely returned to Bangkok. We thanked God Almighty that he had protected us so well during a voyage lasting so long, and covering approximately 1000 English miles.

I hope to go on leave in 1862, and to go to Europe for one year.."

Schomburgk retired from public service in 1864, suffering from ill-health. He died on 11 March 1865 in his native Germany.

Rest in peace.

After Sir Robert Schomburgk, the next farang on record to visit Chiang Mai was the Rev. Daniel McGilvary, a missionary from North Carolina.

The main interest in McGilvary's life was theology; Southern American Presbyterianism, actually the Scottish Calvinism high and dry, that had been transported to the backwoods of the Carolinas in the 18th century where it took root and flourished. It was not a dogma only but a stern discipline of life. The ministers satirized by Burns in his "Holy Fair" were representative types, but little overdrawn, of the then church in Scotland - clannish and combative since time out of mind... "They delight in their own" wrote Bartholomew the Englishman in the 13th century, "and they love not peace."

Such was the type of man who arrived in Chiang Mai on April 3rd 1867 after an arduous three-month journey from Bangkok with his wife and two small children.

His mission was to convert the Chaos and Kohn Muang to his Protestant form of Christianity.

Seemingly uninterested in the history, art, and culture of Chiang Mai, he was the prototype of the clueless farang who is oblivious to what extent Buddhism is related to traditional ways of life here.

The Lanna people practiced spirit religion and from the 12th century, Theravada Buddhism. In the 14th century the Venerable Sumana of Sukhothai had established a Sinhalese Theravada order in Lamphun and then in Chiang Mai. This Buddhist sect became the leading intellectual and cultural force in the kingdom for over two centuries. From the 15th century, monks, particularly from forest-dwelling communities, travelled to Sri Lanka to study and bring back to Lanna Thai what was considered to be an uncorrupted form of Sinhalese Theravada Buddhism. This relatively egalitarian form of Buddhism affected the structure of Lanna society and the way the princes governed. In contrast, neighbouring Siam was receptive to Indian and Khmer concepts of royalty, and a more hierarchical form of Buddhism with Hindu influences where the king was considered a demi-god.

In my next post I will look at what took place after McGilvary's arrival in Chiang Mai; the establishment of the first Christian mission in Northern Thailand; and subsequent events that ultimately led to the end of the Lanna dynasty.

To be continued.....

Edited September 29, 2013 by CMHomeboy78

[Loaded]

...His mission was to convert the Chaos and Kohn Muang to his Protestant form of Christianity.

Seemingly uninterested in the history, art, and culture of Chiang Mai, he was the prototype of the clueless farang who is oblivious to what extent Buddhism is related to traditional ways of life here...

And they are still at it. Nice shirts and stealing moo bahn clubhouse aside, many Thais feel it's wonderful that not just old farangs marrying sex workers are prepared to hand over large sums of cash in return for little more than "yes, I believe you ka".

[Beetlejuice]

Chiang Mai farangs in perspective. Pictures speak louder than words:

[Chiengmaijoe]

Chiang Mai farangs in perspective. Pictures speak louder than words:

Speaking for yourself, I assume.

[Beetlejuice]

Chiang Mai farangs in perspective. Pictures speak louder than words:

Speaking for yourself, I assume.

I never get so lucky.

[CMHomeboy78]

...His mission was to convert the Chaos and Kohn Muang to his Protestant form of Christianity.

Seemingly uninterested in the history, art, and culture of Chiang Mai, he was the prototype of the clueless farang who is oblivious to what extent Buddhism is related to traditional ways of life here...

And they are still at it. Nice shirts and stealing moo bahn clubhouse aside, many Thais feel it's wonderful that not just old farangs marrying sex workers are prepared to hand over large sums of cash in return for little more than "yes, I believe you ka".

So many of the missionaries that I've met here in the past 35 years have been almost caricatures of the doctrines they're trying to spread.

To me, the most offensive thing about them is their animus toward Buddhism, which is more than just a religion here, it's the heart and soul of traditional life.

On the positive side, it is undeniable that missionaries were the ones who introduced modern education and medical practices to Chiang Mai, starting with McGilvary in the mid-19th century.

When it became evident that Thais weren't going to be converted en masse, the missionaries turned their attention to the hilltribes where they've had some measure of success. Travelling from village to village in their 4WD pick-up trucks with their Old Testaments teaching these primitive people the silly fables of the jews.

[DeaconJohn]

The post about Schomburgk was very interesting. I've heard of the "Schomburgk Line", somewhere in South America, and also the "Schomburgk Deer", but I was only vaguely aware that he had been the British Consul-General in Bangkok.

His trip to Chiang Mai didn't seem to have accomplished its objective of setting up a British diplomatic presence here. It took them another 24 years to get their foot in the door. Although the Borneo Company and Bombay-Burmah were both logging forest-leases before they had the consulate and extra-territorial court to support them in their continual litigation and contentious relations with the Chiang Mai Chaos.

Your dislike of missionaries makes your comments about McGilvary seem unfair, to say the least. Why not look at the way the Chiang Mai Chaos and the ordinary people judged him? His relations with Chao Kawilarot deteriorated drastically, that's true, but he had the support of Chao Witchayanon and Princess Tipkesorn upon their succession, and it lasted until the end of their lives. Another active supporter and close friend was Princess Ubonwanna, whose wealth from teak and other businesses seemed always to be at McGilvary's disposal.

His medical treatment of poor people, and his wife's educational work earned them the gratitude and love of many, who without their presence here wouldn't have had access to healthcare or education in their latest forms.

They were directly or indirectly responsible for the founding of institutions that survive to this day. McCormick Hospital, The Prince Royal's College, and Dara Academy among others.

The good that McGilvary did for Chiang Mai and its people far outweigh any personality quirks he may have had.

[Rinrada]

Great stuff and a most interesting and informative "journey"...

[jobin]

An awesome education for me. I never knew.

Best wishes on your new career path as CM notable historian.

[CMHomeboy78]

The post about Schomburgk was very interesting. I've heard of the "Schomburgk Line", somewhere in South America, and also the "Schomburgk Deer", but I was only vaguely aware that he had been the British Consul-General in Bangkok.

His trip to Chiang Mai didn't seem to have accomplished its objective of setting up a British diplomatic presence here. It took them another 24 years to get their foot in the door. Although the Borneo Company and Bombay-Burmah were both logging forest-leases before they had the consulate and extra-territorial court to support them in their continual litigation and contentious relations with the Chiang Mai Chaos.

Your dislike of missionaries makes your comments about McGilvary seem unfair, to say the least. Why not look at the way the Chiang Mai Chaos and the ordinary people judged him? His relations with Chao Kawilarot deteriorated drastically, that's true, but he had the support of Chao Witchayanon and Princess Tipkesorn upon their succession, and it lasted until the end of their lives. Another active supporter and close friend was Princess Ubonwanna, whose wealth from teak and other businesses seemed always to be at McGilvary's disposal.

His medical treatment of poor people, and his wife's educational work earned them the gratitude and love of many, who without their presence here wouldn't have had access to healthcare or education in their latest forms.

They were directly or indirectly responsible for the founding of institutions that survive to this day. McCormick Hospital, The Prince Royal's College, and Dara Academy among others.

The good that McGilvary did for Chiang Mai and its people far outweigh any personality quirks he may have had.

It's evident that the Schomburgk mission failed in its main purpose of establishing a British vice-consulate in Chiang Mai. But Schomburgk's position as a diplomat was so secure, and he had so many successes behind him that I don't think it mattered very much to him personally.

The visit was ill-timed to begin with. Chao Kawilarot was absent in Bangkok when Schomburgk arrived, so there was no one with enough authority in Chiang Mai to deal with. Schomburgk mistakenly refers to Kawilarot as a "Viceroy" when in fact he was a "Chao Chee-wit" ...Lord of Life. He could have given permission for a British diplomatic establishment with a nod of his head.

McGilvary's life and career is a heavy concern, and full of contradictions. I will try to summarize it and the effect it had on Chiang Mai history during the latter half of the 19th century in my next post.

Thank you for your continued interest.

[CMHomeboy78]

Great stuff and a most interesting and informative "journey"...

Thanks so much for your word of encouragement.

Chiang Mai history is a fascinating subject, and it's nice to know some others share my interest.

[CMHomeboy78]

An awesome education for me. I never knew.

Best wishes on your new career path as CM notable historian.

Thanks a lot...but you're talking about Dr Andrew Forbes of CPA Media, not me. His Ancient Chiang Mai series of e-books is a goldmine of information.

I've lived here for a long time, married to a girl from an old Chiang Mai family, and feel very much at home. Love the place. But I'm a graphic artist, not an historian.

Forbes is the real deal.

[CMHomeboy78]

Chiang Mai Farangs - In Perspective.

The Rev. Daniel McGilvary and the establishment of the first Christian mission in Northern Thailand.

McGilvary's arrival in Chiang Mai with his wife and two young children on April 3rd 1867 marked the beginning of many changes, some for the better, some for the worse. On the positive side, probably the most significant was the introduction of modern medical practices.

Before the arrival of the missionaries, Lanna people were dependent upon traditional folk medicine. This was essentially a mixture of common sense remedies, based on accumulated experience, combined with inherited lore about the healing properties of plants and minerals. But it also included certain types of ritual healing, in which prayers, charms or spells accompanied the medicine, or even formed the sole means of treatment. Magic, obviously, cannot counter infection and is no substitute for hygiene, but it may have provided as effective a therapy for psychosomatic ailments and some mental disorders as anything available today. Nevertheless, McGilvary and the medical missionaries who followed him revolutionized medical treatment in Chiang Mai.

McGilvary never had - as far as I know - any formal training as a physician, but he had served an apprenticeship of sorts with his father-in-law Dr Dan Beach Bradley, the foremost missionary doctor in Bangkok before coming to Chiang Mai.

He was also in possession of several of the latest medical textbooks of the period, quinine to treat malaria, and smallpox vaccine. He seems to have been a natural born healer of a type not uncommon in the 19th century; even though he lacked academic credentials.

McGilvary was followed by other Presbyterian missionaries who were qualified doctors. The first three being Dr C.W.Vrooman, Dr M.A.Cheek, and Dr A.M.Cary, in that order. Dr Vrooman and Dr Cary stayed only a few years.

Dr Marion Alphonso Cheek [1852-95], who arrived in 1875, was the most colorful and controversial missionary doctor in Chiang Mai's history.

McGilvary recruited Dr Cheek from his home state of North Carolina and obviously had high hopes for him. The two became brothers-in-law when Dr Cheek married one of Dr Bradley's other daughters.

After establishing his practice, Dr Cheek raised a pledge of $10,000 from the USA to build a hospital in Chiang Mai, but the mission board would not allow it. He was greatly disappointed and embittered. Meanwhile, the mission was disturbed by his business activities and attempts to have a private clinic. He quit the mission in 1885.

Cheek became a notorious cocksman, with what some described as "several wives", and others as a "harem". Subsequently, his wife left him and took their five children to live in the USA.

In addition to his medical practice he became a teak wallah, working forest concessions which he obtained through his influence with the Chiang Mai Chaos. One missionary complained in 1891 that Dr Cheek had the only steam-powered sawmill in Chiang Mai and had repeatedly directed his foreman not to saw any lumber for the mission hospital then being built. But before that he had designed and built the Sapahn Kula, the first modern bridge on the Ping River, located at the site of what was until recently the walking bridge to Wororot Market. He also built the First Presbyterian Church that still stands and is now the Chiang Mai Christian School.

He eventually ran afoul of some government officials and was barred from the logging trade.

When Dr Cheek died in 1895 the Siamese Government, acting through their Chiang Mai Resident Commissioner, confiscated his property and other assets. Damages were sought by the family under international law and eventually $250,000 was awarded Mrs.Cheek. The case was of such magnitude that it was discussed in the US Senate, and established several principals of international law.

The Rev J.J.Thomas wrote of his death, "No man has done more in a few years for our mission here, and no man has been so - I was about to say hated - but I will say pitied and discarded by his former friends and loved ones because of what they deemed a misspent and bad life, as Dr Cheek."

A definitive biography of this interesting man would be a welcome addition to Chiang Mai studies and a fascinating read.

A less flamboyant figure was Dr James W.McKean [1860-1949] who joined the Chiang Mai mission in 1888 to live and work here for the next fourty-two years.

Dr McKean is most famous for the leper hospital he founded on an island in the Ping River four miles south of the city. It grew to become one of the best known institutions of its kind in the world, where new methods of treatment were developed and a community was created to provide a home for people who had been outcast.

From treating people in wayside salas the missionaries went on to set up small clinics, and in 1877 McGilvary built the six-room Chiang Mai Hospital that eventually grew and became McCormick Hospital - named after Cyrus McCormick the philanthropist, whose wife, along with Princess Dara Rasami were among the early benefactors.

People seeking treatment came on foot from all over Lanna Thai, the Burmese Shan States, and even as far away as Yunnan. They saw Chiang Mai as a place where good medical care was available; and that reputation has continued to the present day.

In my next post I will take a look at the social and political turmoil that was provoked by the missionaries and the British teak wallahs who followed soon after them.

To be continued.....

[Loaded]

I like Dr Cheek.

[CMHomeboy78]

I like Dr Cheek.

So do I.

Considering the many things he built in Chiang Mai, and the high-profile role he played in events, it's surprising there is not more biographical information about him.

The missionaries didn't like him, but just about everybody else who wrote about him did.

G.J.Younghusband, the British spy who was on an intelligence gathering mission to Keng Tung was helped greatly by Dr Cheek.

In Younghusband's own words: "My further progress northwards was discouraged in every way; and if it had not been for the great kindness and energy of Dr Cheek, I should have remained months at Zimme [Chiang Mai]. The crowning blow came when I found that the whole of the saddlery down to a watering bridle had been stolen in the night. Here again Dr Cheek came to our assistance, and, fitting us out afresh, started us off on our journey."

He sounds like a good dude.

[Mapguy]

OP,

In relating the travels of Schomburgk and Thomas Samuel, you mentioned the trade route from Chiang Mai to Moulmein. Do you know the route? It looks as though it might have been Chiangmai - Lampang (or Lamphun) - Tak - Mae Sot - Thaton (Myanmar) - Moulmein as roads go now.

"...According to Reginald LeMay [An Asian Arcady. Cambridge, 1926], Schomburgk "...left only a meagre account of his journey. He went as far as Raheng [Tak] by boat, and then continued the journey on elephants. He passed through Lamphun and reached Chiengmai on 11 February 1860, the whole trip occupying just under two months. From Chiengmai he went by the trade route to Moulmein. Thus becoming one of the earliest, if not the first, European to reach the Gulf of Bengal from the Gulf of Siam via Chiengmai since the ill-fated Thomas Samuel at the beginning of the 17th century."

Edited November 1, 2013 by Mapguy

[CMHomeboy78]

OP,

In relating the travels of Schomburgk and Thomas Samuel, you mentioned the trade route from Chiang Mai to Moulmein. Do you know the route? It looks as though it might have been Chiangmai - Lampang (or Lamphun) - Tak - Mae Sot - Thaton (Myanmar) - Moulmein as roads go now.

"...According to Reginald LeMay [An Asian Arcady. Cambridge, 1926], Schomburgk "...left only a meagre account of his journey. He went as far as Raheng [Tak] by boat, and then continued the journey on elephants. He passed through Lamphun and reached Chiengmai on 11 February 1860, the whole trip occupying just under two months. From Chiengmai he went by the trade route to Moulmein. Thus becoming one of the earliest, if not the first, European to reach the Gulf of Bengal from the Gulf of Siam via Chiengmai since the ill-fated Thomas Samuel at the beginning of the 17th century."

To the best of my knowledge the two main trade routes between Chiang Mai and Moulmein were as follows:

Chiang Mai; down the Ping River to Muang Haut, then overland to the Salween River via Mae Sariang [Maing Lon Gyi], then downriver to Moulmein.

And the longer, but possibly less arduous route of:

Chiang Mai: down the Ping River to Tak [Raheng], then overland to Moulmein via Mae Sot.

Thomas Samuel was taken to Pegu [near Rangoon/Yangon] as a war captive from Chiang Mai by the Burmese in 1613. I don't know what route the army took on their return. There were several well-travelled invasion routes that they could have taken.

Sir Robert Schomburgk travelled to Moulmein in 1860 with a large military escort provided by the Chiang Mai Chaos. But again, I don't know the route. It would be safe to assume that it was one of the two main trade routes.

Thanks for your interest.

[CMHomeboy78]

Chiang Mai missionaries - some thoughts.

The Rev. Daniel McGilvary and the American Protestant missionaries who followed him shortly after his arrival in 1867 were the first farangs to take up long-term residence in Chiang Mai. Indeed, the mortal remains of the Reverend and Mrs. McGilvary are in the CM Foreign Cemetery to this day.

The missionaries were soon to be joined by British teak-wallahs working for the Bombay Burmah Trading Corporation and the Borneo Company. Both these firms established their headquarters in Chiang Mai.

The systematic exploitation of the double-canopy teak forests of Lanna Thai got underway after the British conquest of Upper Burma.

Together, the Americans and the British had an immense influence on the modernization of Chiang Mai in the second half of the 19th century.

As mentioned in previous posts, it was the missionaries who introduced the latest medical and educational practices. Smallpox vaccination, quinine for malaria, schools that welcomed girls, and much more was given to a city that had seen little change in medical care and education since its founding in 1296.

McCormick Hospital, Dara Academy, The Prince Royal's College, and the McKean Institute were all established by missionaries and their supporters among the aristocratic families of Chiang Mai. Notably, Chao Wichayanon, Princess Tipkesorn, Princess Ubonwanna, Prince Mahidol, and Dara Rasami.

As laudable as these efforts were, the primary goal of the mission - the mass-conversion of the populace - was a conspicuous failure.

I have read with considerable interest the accounts of the 19th and early 20th century missionaries to Lanna Thai, and it has always seemed to me that their whole enterprise was misguided. They often seem like hucksters with a nasty animus toward Buddhism. That prejudice almost always betrays a profound ignorance of the religion they so dislike, and are so eager to replace with their own.

What particularly raises their ire are the popular animist practices that so often co-exist with Buddhism. They are everywhere to be seen, and participated in with alacrity by Thais of all classes. Even animism is a religious imperative of sorts, expressed in the belief that all living things have souls, and all life is therefore to be respected. What's wrong with that? If that's the level of understanding they're on, then let them alone. Don't aggressively try to change the religion of a people who have politely but insistently declined conversion since the early 17th century.

If people looked for the similarities in religions, and celebrated them with benevolence and brotherhood, the results would be preferable to the search for differences and the effort to convert people who are already leading a basically decent and moral life as judged by anyone's reckoning.

That's the way I see it, and having expressed it, I will try to confine myself to documented historical facts about Chiang Mai and the farangs who have played such a large part in its modern development.

In my next post I would like to look at the period between 1867 when the farangs came to stay, and 1898 when the Gymkhana Club was founded and our presence and influence here became irrevocably established.

To be continued.....

[DeaconJohn]

Did Prince Mahidol really belong to one of the "aristocratic families of Chiang Mai" ?

If so, can you tell me what the connection was?

[CMHomeboy78]

Did Prince Mahidol really belong to one of the "aristocratic families of Chiang Mai" ?

If so, can you tell me what the connection was?

Alert as ever... I think you've caught me out on that one.

Prince Mahidol probably didn't have any connection at all to the chaos of Chiang Mai. But I don't think I'm mistaken in linking him to The Prince Royal's College. As a matter of fact, I'm almost sure that he was the prince that the college was named after.

He was, in all probability, descended from the kings of the Chakri Dynasty.

Sorry for that bit of misinformation; and thanks for pointing it out.

[harrry]

Did Prince Mahidol really belong to one of the "aristocratic families of Chiang Mai" ?

If so, can you tell me what the connection was?

Alert as ever... I think you've caught me out on that one.

Prince Mahidol probably didn't have any connection at all to the chaos of Chiang Mai. But I don't think I'm mistaken in linking him to The Prince Royal's College. As a matter of fact, I'm almost sure that he was the prince that the college was named after.

He was, in all probability, descended from the kings of the Chakri Dynasty.

Sorry for that bit of misinformation; and thanks for pointing it out.

Well he did have some connection

One of the first things he did when he returned was to set up scholarships for students in the fields of medicine, nursing, and public health. He was planning to return to Siriraj Hospital for internship. However, his princely status then became a problem as it was felt that he was too prestigious to be allowed internship. Undeterred, Mahidol chose another hospital in a more egalitarian environment – the missionary-run McCormick Hospital in Chiang Mai. He worked there, day and night, as a resident doctor. His patients fondly called him "Mho Chao Fa" ('Doctor Prince').

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mahidol_Adulyadej

[CMHomeboy78]

Did Prince Mahidol really belong to one of the "aristocratic families of Chiang Mai" ?

If so, can you tell me what the connection was?

Alert as ever... I think you've caught me out on that one.

Prince Mahidol probably didn't have any connection at all to the chaos of Chiang Mai. But I don't think I'm mistaken in linking him to The Prince Royal's College. As a matter of fact, I'm almost sure that he was the prince that the college was named after.

He was, in all probability, descended from the kings of the Chakri Dynasty.

Sorry for that bit of misinformation; and thanks for pointing it out.

Well he did have some connection

One of the first things he did when he returned was to set up scholarships for students in the fields of medicine, nursing, and public health. He was planning to return to Siriraj Hospital for internship. However, his princely status then became a problem as it was felt that he was too prestigious to be allowed internship. Undeterred, Mahidol chose another hospital in a more egalitarian environment – the missionary-run McCormick Hospital in Chiang Mai. He worked there, day and night, as a resident doctor. His patients fondly called him "Mho Chao Fa" ('Doctor Prince').

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mahidol_Adulyadej

Thanks for your input, but I think you've misunderstood.

By "connection" I meant blood relation to the ruling families of Chiang Mai.

It's not impossible that Prince Mahidol had some collateral relationship to the Chiang Mai chaos.

Dara Rasami wasn't the first Chiang Mai Princess to be a consort of a Chakri king. There were earlier ones who could very well have been ancestors of Prince Mahidol.

I just don't know.

[Loaded]

Did Prince Mahidol really belong to one of the "aristocratic families of Chiang Mai" ?

If so, can you tell me what the connection was?

Alert as ever... I think you've caught me out on that one.

Prince Mahidol probably didn't have any connection at all to the chaos of Chiang Mai. But I don't think I'm mistaken in linking him to The Prince Royal's College. As a matter of fact, I'm almost sure that he was the prince that the college was named after.

He was, in all probability, descended from the kings of the Chakri Dynasty.

Sorry for that bit of misinformation; and thanks for pointing it out.

Well he did have some connection

One of the first things he did when he returned was to set up scholarships for students in the fields of medicine, nursing, and public health. He was planning to return to Siriraj Hospital for internship. However, his princely status then became a problem as it was felt that he was too prestigious to be allowed internship. Undeterred, Mahidol chose another hospital in a more egalitarian environment – the missionary-run McCormick Hospital in Chiang Mai. He worked there, day and night, as a resident doctor. His patients fondly called him "Mho Chao Fa" ('Doctor Prince').

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mahidol_Adulyadej

There's a public room at McCormick that is said to house Prince Mahidol's medical equipment. I believe the statue in front of Maharaj Nakorn (Suandok) Hospital is Prince Mahidol. I had always assumed it was the King.

[Oscar2]

Alert as ever... I think you've caught me out on that one.

Prince Mahidol probably didn't have any connection at all to the chaos of Chiang Mai. But I don't think I'm mistaken in linking him to The Prince Royal's College. As a matter of fact, I'm almost sure that he was the prince that the college was named after.

He was, in all probability, descended from the kings of the Chakri Dynasty.

Sorry for that bit of misinformation; and thanks for pointing it out.

Well he did have some connection

One of the first things he did when he returned was to set up scholarships for students in the fields of medicine, nursing, and public health. He was planning to return to Siriraj Hospital for internship. However, his princely status then became a problem as it was felt that he was too prestigious to be allowed internship. Undeterred, Mahidol chose another hospital in a more egalitarian environment – the missionary-run McCormick Hospital in Chiang Mai. He worked there, day and night, as a resident doctor. His patients fondly called him "Mho Chao Fa" ('Doctor Prince').

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mahidol_Adulyadej

There's a public room at McCormick that is said to house Prince Mahidol's medical equipment. I believe the statue in front of Maharaj Nakorn (Suandok) Hospital is Prince Mahidol. I had always assumed it was the King.

some interesting history, photos, etc. in that little room up at McCormick.

[Speedway]

I would like to know more about the farangs especially those involved in the Borneo Co. apparently one of my relatives a David Fleming Macfie ( McFie) arrived in Siam around 1860 or so, he married so I understand a hand maiden of the Princess in 1913 , they had 4 or more children I have found some in the Chiang Mai Foreign cemetery but this only fives me dates nothing about their life and time in Siam ...... which I would find more interesting ...

so If you are to continue your story I would be very interested in following your postings

thank you

Douglas Macfie, Calgary Alberta Canada

[Loaded]

I would like to know more about the farangs especially those involved in the Borneo Co. apparently one of my relatives a David Fleming Macfie ( McFie) arrived in Siam around 1860 or so, he married so I understand a hand maiden of the Princess in 1913 , they had 4 or more children I have found some in the Chiang Mai Foreign cemetery but this only fives me dates nothing about their life and time in Siam ...... which I would find more interesting ...

so If you are to continue your story I would be very interested in following your postings

thank you

Douglas Macfie, Calgary Alberta Canada

3 of the children's graves are next to their parents' headstones. I believe they were sent abroad at a young age and returned when they were old. There's a book that can be bought at the cemetery that lists the headstones and as much as can be remembered about their lives in Chiang Mai. Major Roy Hudson I believe is the author.