Thailand's Culture Of Relationships?

[StreetCowboy]

My taxi driver down to Klong Toiey was bemoaning the corruption of specific Bangkok governor candidates. He seemed to think it was important, and that corruption was a bad thing.

But some people perceive a difference between nepotism, and giving jobs to people you trust, and giving jobs based on skimming off as much as you can for yourself, with no regard to the delivery of the job.

SC

[NanLaew]

As far as I'm concerned it's a Thai bashing thread, and it has been undone by farangs saying it's not exclusive to Thailand.

If you consider that this thread is Thai bashing, either report it or ignore it.

Saying that corruption in Glasgow is same-same as corruption in Bangkok is a cop out.

Must I remind you that I have 6 pairs of rose-tinted glasses!

[theblether]

As far as I'm concerned it's a Thai bashing thread, and it has been undone by farangs saying it's not exclusive to Thailand.

If you consider that this thread is Thai bashing, either report it or ignore it.

Saying that corruption in Glasgow is same-same as corruption in Bangkok is a cop out.

Must I remind you that I have 6 pairs of rose-tinted glasses!

When did I say it was the same? I merely pointed out that corruption wasn't exclusive to Thailand, in fact far from it.

Incidentally you would to be blinkered, nay blindfolded, to not see corruption permeating throughout every level of British society. I lay you odds your father could have recited dozens of examples of police corruption. In the UK it's insidious, in Thailand it's an open perk of the job.

I prefer the openness of Thailand, at least I know with whom / what I'm dealing with.

[theblether]

The most interesting thing about this topic is.............

Farangs in denial.........

In denial that the same level of corruption is endemic in the West, vast contracts being awarded via the Old Boys network, jobs, political patronage, ( just look at the US political system ), pork barrel vote buying, serial bribery of the electorates every few years based upon writing cheques that the unborn will need to honour.............

Nepotism, police corruption in many ways, taking kickbacks from the criminals, selling information, protecting their own, blackmailing politicians, white collar fraud on a massive scale ( Enron for example, among many ), judicial bribery......almost unspoken but I can guarantee you that every ex-cop on this forum knows a bent judge.

In fact it's not been that long since just about every malady you can point out in Thailand occurred in the West, including literal vote buying, fuedal domination of the poor and working class.....what do you think the labour movements were all about? The rise of Trade Unionism? It was a battle to establish the rights of the poor to basic human rights.

The Poor Houses are still within living memory, the Magdalene system was only abolished in 1996, and I bet plenty of members here can remember the starvation of the Great Depression, if not personally, their parents will have told them all about it.

............and yet, just when the Trade Union movements managed to establish what they were seeking, they were taken over by megalomaniacs like Arthur Scargill and the infamous Jimmy Hoffa. Orwell was right, " All Pigs Are Equal, Some Are More Equal Than Others ". Pigs at the trough, sucking up vast amounts of patronage at the cost of the membership.

I could list you 50 examples right now of endemic corruption in the West, I bet you could too.......at least in Thailand there's a brutal honesty about it..........and if we are being honest, we know that we're in a Glass House throwing stones. Our countries are just as corrupt, but most of us are too blind to see it.

Corruption is part of human nature.......the only thing unusual about it in Thailand compared to the West is that it's more in your face.

It's as simple as that.

Yes corruption exists everywhere, no one would deny that.

But how often do those that get exposed here, face actual real jail time and loss of assets as punishment?

there in lies one difference

there are real consequences faced by those in the 'west' who are charged and convicted,

would you agree with that?

No.......and those that do have the misfortune of being caught spend minimal time in cushy open jails. Corrupt MP's in the UK spent less than a year in jail, Conrad Black served very little time in jail in relation to the vast amount of money he extorted from his company.

I think you'll find that the vast majority of corrupt officials are never caught, and of the one's that are, early retirement is the preferred option to get rid of them. It's endemic.

@maxme

I don't think there's anything apathetic about corruption in Thailand, in fact I think people are highly enthusiastic about it.

Also, the fact that it exists to the extent that it does in the West confounds your argument.

Your basing your experience from the west with a country you don't even live in. I'm not saying you don't know anything I just say you are not here dealing with it on a regular basis, therefore your conclusion is incomplete.

I think I explained quite clearly why it is different but if you want to prove it's otherwise, then go ahead

You merely explained the obvious, you're not getting a Gold Star for that

[jbrain]

As far as I'm concerned it's a Thai bashing thread, and it has been undone by farangs saying it's not exclusive to Thailand.

I noticed you been inactive for a few weeks/months . Wasn't that a relaxing time

[theblether]

As far as I'm concerned it's a Thai bashing thread, and it has been undone by farangs saying it's not exclusive to Thailand.

I noticed you been inactive for a few weeks/months . Wasn't that a relaxing time

Yup....I was in Thailand wearing blinkers. It's what I do.

Apparently you have to have a special type of visa to notice things in Thailand.

Just sayin'

[jbrain]

As far as I'm concerned it's a Thai bashing thread, and it has been undone by farangs saying it's not exclusive to Thailand.

I noticed you been inactive for a few weeks/months . Wasn't that a relaxing time

Yup....I was in Thailand wearing blinkers. It's what I do.

Apparently you have to have a special type of visa to notice things in Thailand.

Just sayin'

Guess you're right about that. It's not that special, you'll only need a long term visa

[theblether]

As far as I'm concerned it's a Thai bashing thread, and it has been undone by farangs saying it's not exclusive to Thailand.

I noticed you been inactive for a few weeks/months . Wasn't that a relaxing time

Yup....I was in Thailand wearing blinkers. It's what I do.

Apparently you have to have a special type of visa to notice things in Thailand.

Just sayin'

Guess you're right about that. It's not that special, you'll only need a long term visa

Oh Gawd noooooo!! Spare me the day I have to get a visa!! I'll just stick to FiFo visa exemptions.

Y'all have me terrified of the 90 day reporting offices and the dreaded visa run!!

Nope, I'll just stick to flying in for 30 days then skipping out of the country. In Business Class of course, wouldn't want to risk a DVT now that David48 has scared the living daylights out of me about that too.

[NanLaew]

As far as I'm concerned it's a Thai bashing thread, and it has been undone by farangs saying it's not exclusive to Thailand.

If you consider that this thread is Thai bashing, either report it or ignore it.

Saying that corruption in Glasgow is same-same as corruption in Bangkok is a cop out.

Must I remind you that I have 6 pairs of rose-tinted glasses!

When did I say it was the same? I merely pointed out that corruption wasn't exclusive to Thailand, in fact far from it.

Incidentally you would to be blinkered, nay blindfolded, to not see corruption permeating throughout every level of British society. I lay you odds your father could have recited dozens of examples of police corruption. In the UK it's insidious, in Thailand it's an open perk of the job.

I prefer the openness of Thailand, at least I know with whom / what I'm dealing with.

When did I say that corruption was a Thai exclusive? Once again, the thread is about Thai-style corruption and understanding why it is different from anything encountered in the west.

I guess mentioning that my career constable father not becoming a super had nothing to do with not taking the exams would have been too easy, sorry. Yes, he lamented what could have been but he had amazing integrity. In fact, my sisters ex- boyfriend quit the West Midlands force after a fairly successful 10 years (he made DS) as he could no longer accept what he and my father (and I would hazard yourself) would call unacceptable when it came to who got promotions and why. They couldn't accept things nor change them so they 'copped out'. Incidentally, my father was a terrific golfer, almost went pro and regularly beat the (eventual) Chief Constable in their younger police college days.

Anyway, thanks for the contributions.

Back OT, what does enable this open, in-your-face and generally acceptable face of corruption in LOS.

SC's Bangkok taxi driver that was bothered by the questionable pedigree of the Bangkok mayoral candidates could only think that something was wrong about it but didn't appear convinced? They know it isn't right and maybe some haven't been touched by it (doubtful but possible) but what could possibly be the 'tipping point' or the 'final straw' that would make the average Thai get off the fence on Thai corruption? Is there a game changer out there somewhere?

[jocko]

As far as I'm concerned it's a Thai bashing thread, and it has been undone by farangs saying it's not exclusive to Thailand.

If you consider that this thread is Thai bashing, either report it or ignore it.

Saying that corruption in Glasgow is same-same as corruption in Bangkok is a cop out.

Must I remind you that I have 6 pairs of rose-tinted glasses!

When did I say it was the same? I merely pointed out that corruption wasn't exclusive to Thailand, in fact far from it.

Incidentally you would to be blinkered, nay blindfolded, to not see corruption permeating throughout every level of British society. I lay you odds your father could have recited dozens of examples of police corruption. In the UK it's insidious, in Thailand it's an open perk of the job.

I prefer the openness of Thailand, at least I know with whom / what I'm dealing with.

When did I say that corruption was a Thai exclusive? Once again, the thread is about Thai-style corruption and understanding why it is different from anything encountered in the west.

I guess mentioning that my career constable father not becoming a super had nothing to do with not taking the exams would have been too easy, sorry. Yes, he lamented what could have been but he had amazing integrity. In fact, my sisters ex- boyfriend quit the West Midlands force after a fairly successful 10 years (he made DS) as he could no longer accept what he and my father (and I would hazard yourself) would call unacceptable when it came to who got promotions and why. They couldn't accept things nor change them so they 'copped out'. Incidentally, my father was a terrific golfer, almost went pro and regularly beat the (eventual) Chief Constable in their younger police college days.

Anyway, thanks for the contributions.

Back OT, what does enable this open, in-your-face and generally acceptable face of corruption in LOS.

SC's Bangkok taxi driver that was bothered by the questionable pedigree of the Bangkok mayoral candidates could only think that something was wrong about it but didn't appear convinced? They know it isn't right and maybe some haven't been touched by it (doubtful but possible) but what could possibly be the 'tipping point' or the 'final straw' that would make the average Thai get off the fence on Thai corruption? Is there a game changer out there somewhere?

Do Thais really think hard about politics I mean the average ones ?

That is the only way it's not easy because of the control of the media what percentage of Thais buy a newspaper, when you go into the small village there is not any shops that even sell newspapers

[maxme]

You merely explained the obvious, you're not getting a Gold Star for that

//Not even a scribbled note for trying get you off your high horses? How ... so you..

While there is a contempt for people who are corrupted it's more or less acceptable here and that's why it's so strife. I mean if the cops own bars or nightclubs that are burned down to the ground and nothing is done about it... then why should the locals care about rules and order?

For many there is a fine line between a word and an action but many of the locals don't believe in a change since well to be honest, there hasn't been one yet. So in one way it's understandable but as you see the thinking ain't the same as in western Europe for example.

The corruption has grown into the culture here and therefore a lot harder to get rid off. It requires something a far more complex solution.

[theblether]

Why is it that whenever I disagree with someone I'm suddenly on my high horse?

@Nanlaew........I appreciate what you are saying about your family choosing to walk away rather than put up with the obvious internal corruption. With my traditional West of Scotland / Church of Scotland / Boys Brigade style upbringing, you just know that I have police friends everywhere, and family too.

One of my cousins was fast tracked through the degree recruitment programme, and rose rapidly in the ranks. She could see herself going all the way to the top but she chose to relocate to the Adelaide Police service as quality of life was important to her than ladder climbing. I'll be travelling to South East Asia later this year with a senior police commander who is retiring this year after 30 years service, a fabulous boyhood friend, however, I am so proud of this lady............

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pat_Gallan

I went to school with Pat, a regular primary school in Wishaw, and Pat has worked her way up to being a Deputy Assistant Commissioner with the Met Police, the most senior Black police officer in the UK. She's surrounded by dozens of Lanarkshire boys in the Met police, many of whom I know.

Pat is already knocking on the glass ceiling, hopefully soon she'll smash through it, and show the World that it's not who you know, it's who you are that matters at the end of the day.

[NanLaew]

You merely explained the obvious, you're not getting a Gold Star for that

//Not even a scribbled note for trying get you off your high horses? How ... so you..

While there is a contempt for people who are corrupted it's more or less acceptable here and that's why it's so strife. I mean if the cops own bars or nightclubs that are burned down to the ground and nothing is done about it... then why should the locals care about rules and order?

For many there is a fine line between a word and an action but many of the locals don't believe in a change since well to be honest, there hasn't been one yet. So in one way it's understandable but as you see the thinking ain't the same as in western Europe for example.

The corruption has grown into the culture here and therefore a lot harder to get rid off. It requires something a far more complex solution.

Do you think that if there was ever a successful prosecution of a night club owner where people died due to negligence and graft or a senior Customs officer with more imported cars than mia noi's because he can or a government minister for having billions of unaccountable baht stashed in his house from backhanders, would that make an impact on the average Somchai's take on being on the take? A total lack of a credible investigative media doesn't help. Plenty of graft allegations get reported but regardless of the truth or falsehoods of the original story, there's no follow-up, no pursuit. The 'free' press in Thailand is either suppressed, clueless as to the power they really have or bought off from the get go. I know which one of these options I believe.

Since it usually needs an arrest and charging by the police, I would think that the MiB are the primary hurdle for any real change. To be honest, I don't think they should be called police since they don't operate like the police most of us were brought up with. They don't do traffic accidents, crowd control or neighborhood patrols but they seem to get by with the spurious attention grabbing bust or headline. Maybe they don't get paid enough (the lower ranks anyway) on purpose so that they can do the controlling of the lower social strata on behalf of those that do have the connections and money. They are 'tax' collectors no?

[NanLaew]

Do Thais really think hard about politics I mean the average ones ?

That is the only way it's not easy because of the control of the media what percentage of Thais buy a newspaper, when you go into the small village there is not any shops that even sell newspapers

I would like to believe that there is much more than a passing interest these days but relying on local newspapers for anything investigative or pithy or truthful isn't going to work. In the boonies, everyone listens to the radio but it's the same regulated and sanctioned pap on the AM channels. There may be some upstarts on local FM stations but they either get nipped in the bud... or move on to become karaoke stars. Maybe there's not a lot of newspapers but there are thousands of satellite dishes but it's all spewing the same crap. There's the government that is in power and there's the opposition and that is as far as the average Thai is supposed to think when it comes to politics. There doesn't seem to be any 'out of the box' thinking about alternatives to the current see-saw. Or if there is, it is quickly stifled... or bought.

[rattler]

Do Thais really think hard about politics I mean the average ones ?

That is the only way it's not easy because of the control of the media what percentage of Thais buy a newspaper, when you go into the small village there is not any shops that even sell newspapers

I would like to believe that there is much more than a passing interest these days but relying on local newspapers for anything investigative or pithy or truthful isn't going to work. In the boonies, everyone listens to the radio but it's the same regulated and sanctioned pap on the AM channels. There may be some upstarts on local FM stations but they either get nipped in the bud... or move on to become karaoke stars. Maybe there's not a lot of newspapers but there are thousands of satellite dishes but it's all spewing the same crap. There's the government that is in power and there's the opposition and that is as far as the average Thai is supposed to think when it comes to politics. There doesn't seem to be any 'out of the box' thinking about alternatives to the current see-saw. Or if there is, it is quickly stifled... or bought.

or terminated!!

[maxme]

@Blether

Coz you are in for the likes, you deserve no less than that...

@Nanleaw

As with many developing countries, it doesn't start with the authorities... it start's with the people. Once they start caring about their kids future or even their own, there the change will begin.

Most people here do not really solve the issues and do not like confrontations (Then again, who does) but that puts them in a perfect position for those who wants to use their weaknesses against them.

As I said before it has grown into the culture so it's not as simple as just cutting out a few politicians or a few cops and it will start to look better. It's a lot deeper than that... and that change has to begin at their homes.

Edited February 17, 2013 by maxme

[NanLaew]

I agree that the changes need to start 'at home' but the masses need to be lead by example on this one. There's so many instances of significant wrong-doers getting pardons, there are generations of Thai people have grown up with the nonsense notion that even if you 'get it wrong', it will all be OK in the end. This includes major figures who have staged coups that have derailed a nations development; they all get a 'get of of jail free card' in the end. This unending 'forgiveness' undermines the whole sensible notion of being responsible for your actions and the consequences thereof. Now forgiveness is also a significant cornerstone of certain other faiths but in LOS, it does appear that major malfeasance will only get you a wrist slap and once you say you are sorry (with appropriate donations), it's all a misunderstanding and any money involved remains silted away unnoticed. It's like a perpetual Thai grade school out there, even for the adults, be they industry leaders, politicians or local government paper shufflers. Even when they get caught in the act, there's never any real consequences that can't be 'solved' without some money and a big wai. Oh yes, and a smile.

[maxme]

I agree that the changes need to start 'at home' but the masses need to be lead by example on this one. There's so many instances of significant wrong-doers getting pardons, there are generations of Thai people have grown up with the nonsense notion that even if you 'get it wrong', it will all be OK in the end. This includes major figures who have staged coups that have derailed a nations development; they all get a 'get of of jail free card' in the end. This unending 'forgiveness' undermines the whole sensible notion of being responsible for your actions and the consequences thereof. Now forgiveness is also a significant cornerstone of certain other faiths but in LOS, it does appear that major malfeasance will only get you a wrist slap and once you say you are sorry (with appropriate donations), it's all a misunderstanding and any money involved remains silted away unnoticed. It's like a perpetual Thai grade school out there, even for the adults, be they industry leaders, politicians or local government paper shufflers. Even when they get caught in the act, there's never any real consequences that can't be 'solved' without some money and a big wai. Oh yes, and a smile.

It's a vicious cycle but two things even the new generation Thais agree on that need to be changed are education and culture. However this won't be until someone steps foward and says "Enough is enough". I hardly see the politicians on either side too eager to make any amendments, so this needs to come from the people.

[rattler]

I agree that the changes need to start 'at home' but the masses need to be lead by example on this one. There's so many instances of significant wrong-doers getting pardons, there are generations of Thai people have grown up with the nonsense notion that even if you 'get it wrong', it will all be OK in the end. This includes major figures who have staged coups that have derailed a nations development; they all get a 'get of of jail free card' in the end. This unending 'forgiveness' undermines the whole sensible notion of being responsible for your actions and the consequences thereof. Now forgiveness is also a significant cornerstone of certain other faiths but in LOS, it does appear that major malfeasance will only get you a wrist slap and once you say you are sorry (with appropriate donations), it's all a misunderstanding and any money involved remains silted away unnoticed. It's like a perpetual Thai grade school out there, even for the adults, be they industry leaders, politicians or local government paper shufflers. Even when they get caught in the act, there's never any real consequences that can't be 'solved' without some money and a big wai. Oh yes, and a smile.

It's a vicious cycle but two things even the new generation Thais agree on that need to be changed are education and culture. However this won't be until someone steps foward and says "Enough is enough". I hardly see the politicians on either side too eager to make any amendments, so this needs to come from the people.

But unfortunately they have kept the majority stupid deliberately under the guise of various things we cant mention and "Buddhism" again none of which can really be discussed.