Inquest Inclusive On Who Fired Fatal Shot In Dusit Zoo Worker's Death: 2010 Political Violence

[OzMick]

 

Wasn't it early 2012 that the DSI decided to concentrate on the easy cases first? 'easy' as in possibly clear which side fired and maybe clear which person actually fired.

This doesn't bode well for the next cases

 

Got to let the odd case go so people dont start squealing about a witch hunt. High velocity bullets = snipers (I am no expert) but people need to be reminded that the only soldiers killed during this time were in April when somebody tossed a grenade in. Mr A had sufficient time before being voted out to put a case together against someone but failed to do it. The only evidence suggest another army personnel throw one in to up the anti and justify the massacre. Reds shirts armed to the teeth and not one soldier even suspiciously, remotely came any where near a bullet. So either the red shirts or men in black either were bad shots or most of the stories are just another fabrication to justify what took place. In my book there is only one party guilty buts let discuss who gave the orders

Not only are you no expert, you are also wrong, as usual. NATO 5.56mm are high velocity rounds and are used in M16 rifles.

Bad shots? Or shooting at disposable protesters and civilians to keep the numbers up? The court decision is that it was not the RTA who shot this person. So who do you think did it, the Tooth Fairy?

Edited February 21, 2013 by OzMick

[Buchholz]

 

Wasn't it early 2012 that the DSI decided to concentrate on the easy cases first? 'easy' as in possibly clear which side fired and maybe clear which person actually fired.

This doesn't bode well for the next cases

 

High velocity bullets = snipers (I am no expert)

.

Don't need to be an expert to do rudimentary searching on your own.

High velocity bullets = over 1000 ft/sec = includes many weapons besides just sniper weapons.

AKA weapons that both sides had.

.

Edited February 21, 2013 by Buchholz

[metisdead]

Some inflammatory nonsense posts and replies have been removed.

[Buchholz]

I wonder if the army has finally lost patience and had a word with the courts.

Well, big thanks to our local dog for sniffing out this clear and very obvious distinct proof of what might have happened, likely, purportedly and leaked as well. Now for some more leaks by our true and brave dog, on all the others that is. This assuming he won't be muzzled by the Army, or sold to Cambodia/Laos for the meat (in the story).

"Two of the 10 leaked reports purported to have come from the Department of Special Investigation (DSI) and recently obtained by The Nation reveal how live bullets were "likely used" on both a bystander and a red shirt, with investigators concluding both cases were likely the work of soldiers acting on orders."

He's barking up the wrong tree when he fails in his post to recognize that the case fell apart not because of his spuriously alleged army interference, but because of the prosecutors office (under Yingluck's Justice Ministry) who failed to provide witnesses and failed to present conclusive ballistic and forensic evidence.

.

The OP:

The court ruled that public prosecutors failed to provide enough evidences to establish from which direction the bullet that killed Mana Artran, 24, was fired.

The court ruled that public prosecutors had no witnesses as to who shot Mana.

.

Edited February 21, 2013 by Buchholz

[webfact]

UPDATE
2010 POLITICAL VIOLENCE
Court unable to conclude who killed zoo official in 2010
Kesinee Taengkhiao
The Nation

BANGKOK: -- The Criminal Court's inquest into whether a Dusit Zoo official was killed by a soldier or a red-shirt protester in 2010 came to an inconclusive end yesterday.

The court ruled that public prosecutors had failed to provide enough evidence to establish the direction from which the bullet that killed Mana Artran, 24, came.

Mana is the sixth victim whose death the Criminal Court has ordered an investigation into. The court was also inconclusive over the death of the fifth victim, Boonmee Rermsuk, 70, saying it could not be established which side the fatal bullet came from as he was caught in a crossfire between troops and protesters.

However, for the first four victims - Phan Khamkong, Charnnarong Polsrial, Chartchai Chalao and Kunakorn Srisuwan - the court ruled that the bullets killing them came from the soldiers.

Mana was killed inside the zoo's premises on April 10, 2010, when troops were deployed to crackdown on red-shirt protesters on Rajdamnoen Road and Khok Wua Intersection.

The court was told that while Mana was leaving the zoo after completing his shift at 11pm, gunfire was heard from the parking lot and his friend, Boonmee Kaewsaithuam, found him lying dead.

Boonmee testified that he took cover and heard the gunfire continue for about 20 minutes. Later, two bullet shells were found about 25 metres away from the body, as were shirts and batons of soldiers. During the inquest, the court was told that 150 members of the Air Defence Artillery Battalion from Fort Suranaree had been deployed to provide security at the zoo and Parliament. When gunfire was heard from the Parliament's side, someone was heard shouting "they have come" and troops were seen ducking, the court heard.

The court ruled that public prosecutors had no witnesses to confirm who exactly shot Mana. Public prosecutors only presented an account from a security officer from the zoo saying that he saw troops firing in the air. However, the court ruled that the spot where the troops were firing in the air was different from where Mana was killed.

Moreover, troops also told Boonmee to duck down without showing any intimidation, hence the court said if soldiers had shot Mana they would have shot his friend as well.

The court said traces found on trees indicated that bullets came from different directions and proved that there were people other than the troops in the zoo at the time of shooting.

The court said a ballistics test by police could only tell that the bullet had entered the back of Mana's head, but it could not confirm whether the bullet came from the direction where the troops were stationed. The court said that the two spent shells found near Mana's body did not match any of the 29 types of guns used by the troops that day.

As a result, the court ruled that Mana was killed by a high-velocity bullet from an indeterminate direction. Mana's family was not present at court yesterday.


-- The Nation 2013-02-22

[NongKhaiKid]

I'm not saying the evidence wasn't enough but this is a very Thai decision. The army and red shirts won't get upset by being blamed and " forced " to take action to protect their good name. The government can take a welcome step back and put their bums back on the fence and finally this will go away and be forgotten except by the victim's nearest and dearest but who gives a toss about them ?

[Bellweather]

Nothing was done about the 100 or so deaths at Tak Bai so 1 poor unfortunate is neither here nor there

[muttley]

I wonder if the army has finally lost patience and had a word with the courts.

>>Well, big thanks to our local dog for sniffing out this clear and very obvious distinct proof of what might have happened, likely, purportedly and leaked as well. Now for some more leaks by our true and brave dog, on all the others that is. This assuming he won't be muzzled by the Army, or sold to Cambodia/Laos for the meat (in the story).

"Two of the 10 leaked reports purported to have come from the Department of Special Investigation (DSI) and recently obtained by The Nation reveal how live bullets were "likely used" on both a bystander and a red shirt, with investigators concluding both cases were likely the work of soldiers acting on orders."

He's barking up the wrong tree when he fails in his post to recognize that the case fell apart not because of his spuriously alleged army interference, but because of the prosecutors office (under Yingluck's Justice Ministry) who failed to provide witnesses and failed to present conclusive ballistic and forensic evidence.

.

The OP:

The court ruled that public prosecutors failed to provide enough evidences to establish from which direction the bullet that killed Mana Artran, 24, was fired.

The court ruled that public prosecutors had no witnesses as to who shot Mana.

.

I would say that the pair of you have been in Thailand too long. You have reached the thai nirvana of not questioning anything or anybody in authority. As long as the blessed army are not wronged.

Aren't you even curious that a leaked report exists that presented the same information as the inquest except for one important thing, the army were the only people in the area - it was their rest area. The last contact they had had with the red shirts was on the Rajdamnoen Road and the Kokwua Intersection. Now that is about 2kms away and the fighting there stopped earlier than 11pm, so it is quite feasible that these troops were here resting and panicked when a van did a U turn as suggested by the leaked documents.

But whats the point, you're not going to believe that the army influenced this court or the prosecutor, I mean they wouldn't dream of doing such a thing, they've never done it before .

(at this point posts will appear wrt pastry boxes anything to derail a blip on the controlled thinking that goes on here)

Edited February 22, 2013 by muttley

[15Peter20]

Once again it is possible for someone to die in Thailand and for the perpetrators to get away the crime. (be them regular army or red shirt army)

Mana - aged 24 - probably had children, who will now grow up fatherless in a family without a breadwinner.

So now what happens? The whole affair is swept under the carpet and conveniently forgotten as an inconclusive verdict is of no political value to either side and therefore has outlived its usefulness - tragic.

The most tragic thing is that the blood of all the innocents killed are on the hands of one man.

That's absolutely fantastic news for everyone that pulled a trigger or fired a grenade during the violent times.

[Pimay1]

Once again it is possible for someone to die in Thailand and for the perpetrators to get away the crime. (be them regular army or red shirt army)

Mana - aged 24 - probably had children, who will now grow up fatherless in a family without a breadwinner.

So now what happens? The whole affair is swept under the carpet and conveniently forgotten as an inconclusive verdict is of no political value to either side and therefore has outlived its usefulness - tragic.

The most tragic thing is that the blood of all the innocents killed are on the hands of one man.

That's absolutely fantastic news for everyone that pulled a trigger or fired a grenade during the violent times.

That dog won't hunt my friend.

[15Peter20]

Once again it is possible for someone to die in Thailand and for the perpetrators to get away the crime. (be them regular army or red shirt army)

Mana - aged 24 - probably had children, who will now grow up fatherless in a family without a breadwinner.

So now what happens? The whole affair is swept under the carpet and conveniently forgotten as an inconclusive verdict is of no political value to either side and therefore has outlived its usefulness - tragic.

The most tragic thing is that the blood of all the innocents killed are on the hands of one man.

That's absolutely fantastic news for everyone that pulled a trigger or fired a grenade during the violent times.

That dog won't hunt my friend.

Oh well, back to the kennels then.

[rubl]

I wonder if the army has finally lost patience and had a word with the courts.

>>Well, big thanks to our local dog for sniffing out this clear and very obvious distinct proof of what might have happened, likely, purportedly and leaked as well. Now for some more leaks by our true and brave dog, on all the others that is. This assuming he won't be muzzled by the Army, or sold to Cambodia/Laos for the meat (in the story).

"Two of the 10 leaked reports purported to have come from the Department of Special Investigation (DSI) and recently obtained by The Nation reveal how live bullets were "likely used" on both a bystander and a red shirt, with investigators concluding both cases were likely the work of soldiers acting on orders.

"

He's barking up the wrong tree when he fails in his post to recognize that the case fell apart not because of his spuriously alleged army interference, but because of the prosecutors office (under Yingluck's Justice Ministry) who failed to provide witnesses and failed to present conclusive ballistic and forensic evidence.

.

The OP:

The court ruled that public prosecutors failed to provide enough evidences to establish from which direction the bullet that killed Mana Artran, 24, was fired.

The court ruled that public prosecutors had no witnesses as to who shot Mana.

.

I would say that the pair of you have been in Thailand too long. You have reached the thai nirvana of not questioning anything or anybody in authority. As long as the blessed army are not wronged.

Aren't you even curious that a leaked report exists that presented the same information as the inquest except for one important thing, the army were the only people in the area - it was their rest area. The last contact they had had with the red shirts was on the Rajdamnoen Road and the Kokwua Intersection. Now that is about 2kms away and the fighting there stopped earlier than 11pm, so it is quite feasible that these troops were here resting and panicked when a van did a U turn as suggested by the leaked documents.

But whats the point, you're not going to believe that the army influenced this court or the prosecutor, I mean they wouldn't dream of doing such a thing, they've never done it before .

(at this point posts will appear wrt pastry boxes anything to derail a blip on the controlled thinking that goes on here)

Last try:

The effects on having been in Thailand too long ==> ignored, off topic

Being curious? Of course, dear mutt. I'm really puzzled that many red-shirt supporters came to testify about ghastly things the army did, but none on having seen armed elements wandering around in the night. Some journalists bumped into them and were happy to report that those armed militants were really friendly as they didn't kill them even if they could. Army all visible in their legitimate task of cleaning up, armed militants only appearing in the night? Curious? Renegade general Seh Daeng shot and a few hours later grenades rain to show displeasure. Curious?

But what's the point of believing some which is speculated upon. Clearly all protesters were peaceful, even if not all believe this

pastry box ==> ignored, off topic

[muttley]

Last try:

The effects on having been in Thailand too long ==> ignored, off topic

Being curious? Of course, dear mutt. I'm really puzzled that many red-shirt supporters came to testify about ghastly things the army did, but none on having seen armed elements wandering around in the night. Some journalists bumped into them and were happy to report that those armed militants were really friendly as they didn't kill them even if they could. Army all visible in their legitimate task of cleaning up, armed militants only appearing in the night? Curious? Renegade general Seh Daeng shot and a few hours later grenades rain to show displeasure. Curious?

But what's the point of believing some which is speculated upon. Clearly all protesters were peaceful, even if not all believe this

pastry box ==> ignored, off topic

Being curious? Of course, dear mutt. I'm really puzzled that many red-shirt supporters came to testify about ghastly things

the army did, but none on having seen armed elements wandering around in the night. Some journalists bumped into them and were happy to report that those armed militants were really friendly as they didn't kill them even if

they could. Army all visible in their legitimate task of cleaning up, armed militants only appearing in the night? Curious? Renegade general Seh Daeng shot and a few hours later grenades rain to show displeasure. Curious?

Do you know that the witnesses that came forward were red shirts, definitely.? The implication being that if they were red shirts

they were lying , right? Strange that seeing as we have a Nation TV reporter being a witness, a couple of bystanders, a zoo keeper etc so far as witnesses in the inquests, presumably testifying about the "ghastly things the army did"

No red shirts testifying about seeing "armed elements wandering around in the night" - not suprising that seeing as

despite there being 500 of them (Abhisit estimate) not one one was shot dead , injured or even arrested so not much chance of a red shirt being called to testify.

The two journalists and their fantasy piece, yeah OK. Lets look at that again, it’s always worth a laugh from the first sentence onwards:

They let us inside their secret world on one condition: if we took any pictures, they would kill us.

Inside, it was an open secret who the gunmen were; no less secret were the perimeter bombs, connected by dirty gray cables, designed to inflict heavy casualties on any advancing government army soldiers.

Twenty-seven men crouched in darkness inside the tent. Newspapers covered any illuminated displays from radios or other electronics, and we were asked to turn off our cell phones. One gunman suggested army snipers would kill them all at first light if they had the chance.

They apparently had had training in explosives and munitions, which they put to use in handling plastic explosives and planting bombs for remote-detonation along the camp's edge.

It isn't clear why the Ronin raised the veil of secrecy for us, but perhaps it was knowledge that their fight, and possibly their lives, could soon end with the coming military crackdown. That doesn't seem to have happened, however. No, strange that

"Army all visible in their legitimate task of cleaning up" What a horrible turn of phrase you use when backing up the army and their distasteful actions.

"Renegade general Seh Daeng shot and a few hours later grenades rain to show displeasure".

The culprit for those grenades fired at the Dusit hotel was Sae Daengs aide who was arrested and jailed for it. Whats to be curious about?

Edited February 22, 2013 by muttley

[AleG]

...

No red shirts testifying about seeing "armed elements wandering around in the night" - not suprising that seeing as

despite there being 500 of them (Abhisit estimate) not one one was shot dead , injured or even arrested so not much chance of a red shirt being called to testify.

...

"Renegade general Seh Daeng shot and a few hours later grenades rain to show displeasure".

The culprit for those grenades fired at the Dusit hotel was Sae Daengs aide who was arrested and jailed for it. Whats to be curious about?

Forget shooting fish in a barrel, this is like dynamite fishing in a barrel.

[smedly]

If someone was running through the streets of Bangkok today with an assault rifle shooting at people and the police or army shot them dead - would YS be accused of murder

someone explain the difference between the above and what went on in 2010 except that there were more people with assault rifles and also grenade launchers

[rubl]

Being curious? Of course, dear mutt. I'm really puzzled that many red-shirt supporters came to testify about ghastly things

the army did, but none on having seen armed elements wandering around in the night. Some journalists bumped into them and were happy to report that those armed militants were really friendly as they didn't kill them even if

they could. Army all visible in their legitimate task of cleaning up, armed militants only appearing in the night? Curious? Renegade general Seh Daeng shot and a few hours later grenades rain to show displeasure. Curious?

Do you know that the witnesses that came forward were red shirts, definitely.? The implication being that if they were red shirts

they were lying , right? Strange that seeing as we have a Nation TV reporter being a witness, a couple of bystanders, a zoo keeper etc so far as witnesses in the inquests, presumably testifying about the "ghastly things the army did"

No red shirts testifying about seeing "armed elements wandering around in the night" - not suprising that seeing as

despite there being 500 of them (Abhisit estimate) not one one was shot dead , injured or even arrested so not much chance of a red shirt being called to testify.

The two journalists and their fantasy piece, yeah OK. Lets look at that again, it’s always worth a laugh from the first sentence onwards:

They let us inside their secret world on one condition: if we took any pictures, they would kill us.

Inside, it was an open secret who the gunmen were; no less secret were the perimeter bombs, connected by dirty gray cables, designed to inflict heavy casualties on any advancing government army soldiers.

Twenty-seven men crouched in darkness inside the tent. Newspapers covered any illuminated displays from radios or other electronics, and we were asked to turn off our cell phones. One gunman suggested army snipers would kill them all at first light if they had the chance.

They apparently had had training in explosives and munitions, which they put to use in handling plastic explosives and planting bombs for remote-detonation along the camp's edge.

It isn't clear why the Ronin raised the veil of secrecy for us, but perhaps it was knowledge that their fight, and possibly their lives, could soon end with the coming military crackdown. That doesn't seem to have happened, however. No, strange that

"Army all visible in their legitimate task of cleaning up" What a horrible turn of phrase you use when backing up the army and their distasteful actions.

"Renegade general Seh Daeng shot and a few hours later grenades rain to show displeasure".

The culprit for those grenades fired at the Dusit hotel was Sae Daengs aide who was arrested and jailed for it. Whats to be curious about?

My dear mutt, you seem somewhat dense today. I'm also very much surprised to see your denigrating remarks on journalists and what they reported. I'm sure our local photo journalist NN will also be.

"Several of us, including me, met armed Red Shirt militants during the fighting, and non of us were killed by them, even though in cover of darkness it would have been easy for them to do so. I, for example, was only asked by them not to photograph them (quite politely, actually), and i won't argue with this point with heavily armed people. I didn't either when heavily armed soldiers asked me the same (not very polite) after their unit killed a protester in front of me. Sorry, but i fear that i may lack hero qualities - in those situations my life is more dear to me than my rights as a journalist."

http://www.thaivisa.com/forum/topic/541283-red-shirts-to-mark-2nd-anniversary-of-protests/page__st__300#entry5308387

As for red-shirt witnesses, well k. Tarit said so when he just had handed over the first few dozen cases to the Criminal Court for an inquest. Who am I to doubt him? For sure I do not doubt those witnesses stated what they saw, or at least what they thought they saw. In the heat of a fight some aspects stick more to memory than others. It takes a good interviewer to iliminate embellishments and pick the small grains of truth. No doubt the recordings of the statements will show that.

Lastly, with the culpit of the 'rain of grenades after Seh Daeng having been shot', apprehended, sentenced, jailed, you think that's it? Isolated case, no relation to anything else that happened during those days? Nothing to see here, move along ?

[animatic]

Most all modern rifles are high velocity not just sniper rifles.

Sniper rifles typically are for extremely long distances, that is the main difference.

But to say high velocity bullet wounds are the sole domain of sniper or military weapons is false.

Also to imply or state that ONLY the military is in possession of high velocity weapons is also quite false.

http://library.med.utah.edu/WebPath/TUTORIAL/GUNS/GUNBLST.html

Edited February 22, 2013 by animatic

[klauskunkel]

I assume they mean 'inconclusive'.

yup, they seem to have trouble with the big words...