Wife Got Her Visa But Son Didn't

[Kevin1908]

The wife just called me to say that she has got her visa but that her 14 year old son didn't. I am not sure of the reason that was given for her to get a vias but not her dependent son. I don't see the point of granting one and not the other as she can hardly leave him on his own. I can't see the boy going to live with the father so I guess if the wife comes to the UK he will have to stay with family.

I am unclear what what dialogue has gone on with the boy's father if any. You know what it is like getting a straight forward answer from the Thais but I know that the Embassy phoned the boy and spoke to him directly.

I thought it odd at the time that a Government official would speak directly with a minor and exclude the parent.

Anybody else experienced this and what should we do next?

[ThaiVisaExpress]

Hello was your wife married to the child's father previously ?

• Did you supply the Phor Khor 14 ( if not married)
  
• Divorce certificate showing who has got legal custody of the child ?
  

[Kevin1908]

Well I am not sure what the wife submitted with the application. They were married and the divorce agreement was that the boy stayed with the father until he reached a certain age (not sure when that was) and then he would live with her and that has been the case. Again I am not sure when this happened but certianly since before I met her. Sorry but you must know what it is like get an unambiguous answer from a Thai who isn't perfectly fluent in English.

I gather the father has no objection to the boy leaving the country. I assume that all the divorce documentation was sent. I know that the Embassy spoke to the boy 2 weeks ago and asked for the father's phone number.

I have asked her to send me what ever letters the Embassy gave her for the rejection.

Is it normal to grant to the parent and not the dependent child?

[ThaiVisaExpress]

Hello that's possibly why you should employ professional help these child applications are complex.

At a guess I would say the father has legal custody of the child as per the divorce paper. We had a client enter the office last week I checked the document & the father had custody we sent her away to get a new order.And they can issue the mother a visa without the child getting a visa.

Regards Paul

[Kevin1908]

My understanding is that the mother has custody. I was told that under the divorce settlement the father had custody up to a certain age then he would live with her. She did tell me but that was some time ago and I can't remember from what age. I will check this out.

[ThaiVisaExpress]

If the Father has custody for example until the child is 18 - then he has custody not the mother ?

If the father has custody he has sole responsibility possibly if the court order has awarded custody to the father the embassy wont issue the child with a visa. I would need to see the GV 51 buts that's my guess the embassy have made a decision based on that.

• Father has custody under Thai Law ( which sounds correct)
  
• If the child still has contact with the father then he may well have sole responsibility
  
• Did you not get the divorce settlement translated before you submitted ?
  

Forward the GV 51 I will take a look at it.

Edited February 21, 2013 by ThaiVisaExpress

[ThaiVisaExpress]

Ask for a copy of the refusal notice.

[Kevin1908]

I have asked her to send me the refusal. The boy definitely wants to go to the UK.

Wife says that she sent the paperwork saying that she has legal custody to the Embassy. Not sure if this was translated or not.

All I know is the Embassy called the boy and asked for the father's telephone number as thay wanted to speak to him.

Obviously I don't know the legal ins and outs of this but the father takes no repsonsibility for his son so the choice is the wife stays in Thailand or her parents look after the boy. The father will not have any involvement so it will be pretty pissy if he threw a spanner in the works.

Assuming everything was submitted correctly and legal custody is with the mother should we appeal or resubmit.

I assume appeal as resubmission would only be with all the same documentation but I guess appealling is a long drawn out affair.

[theoldgit]

Speculative answer removed.

Sent from my iPhone using ThaiVisa app

[Kevin1908]

I will find out about the GV51.

[AngryParent]

I have asked her to send me the refusal. The boy definitely wants to go to the UK.

Wife says that she sent the paperwork saying that she has legal custody to the Embassy. Not sure if this was translated or not.

All I know is the Embassy called the boy and asked for the father's telephone number as thay wanted to speak to him.

Obviously I don't know the legal ins and outs of this but the father takes no repsonsibility for his son so the choice is the wife stays in Thailand or her parents look after the boy. The father will not have any involvement so it will be pretty pissy if he threw a spanner in the works.

Assuming everything was submitted correctly and legal custody is with the mother should we appeal or resubmit.

I assume appeal as resubmission would only be with all the same documentation but I guess appealling is a long drawn out affair.

I am not a professional visa middleman, but I can say from my many years of visa law (personal experience), UKBA etc etc, that if the wife was given the visa, the son should have been too (application at the same time - this has been well publicised by the UKBA almost to the extent of a sales pitch).

If it has been refused, then as per the adivse above e.g. custody etc. that will be the failing point.

Also, a sad fact that is often omitted, visas are denied mysteriously (maybe to fulfil quotas etc.) only to be allowed on appeal. All that have been around the block a million times know this - just not easy to scientifically prove.

Edited February 21, 2013 by AngryParent

[Kevin1908]

I can only go with what I know about the custody issue and assume that I have been told and understand it correctly. Obviously I need to follow this up.

I find it odd that the Embassy followed up with the son and the father if the divorce and custody documents were correct. If they were correct why even contact the father.

If they weren't correct why not a straight rejection and not contact the father.

I was fully expecting her application to be rejected and therefore the son's but not to grant her's and reject the son's.

[beano2274]

Could it be that in fact they both have custody and the father has then flatly refused the child to leave Thailand.

[AngryParent]

I can only go with what I know about the custody issue and assume that I have been told and understand it correctly. Obviously I need to follow this up.

I find it odd that the Embassy followed up with the son and the father if the divorce and custody documents were correct. If they were correct why even contact the father.

If they weren't correct why not a straight rejection and not contact the father.

I was fully expecting her application to be rejected and therefore the son's but not to grant her's and reject the son's.

Indeed, this is a matter thay you need to follow up. There is either a very fundamental issue affecting your family or it is a UKBA error. If it is the former, and beano2274 has given a possible situation, I have alluded to a few others, then this needs to be resolved post haste... as this issue will haunt the future.

For all, I wish you the best. Do not forget, you have rights as UK citizen and are allowed to question, refute, challenge etc... Just be polite whilst doing so.

Edit: you were expecting her application to be rejected... hmmm... that is a more serious issue... these "hidden" concepts should also be addressed (for personal etc..). Maybe for the future. Maybe, count today as a great day and move to the UK with the wife for a short time and then reasses? You are still luckier than many, who cannot bring ANYBODY back to the UK.

Edited February 21, 2013 by AngryParent

[wooloomooloo]

AngryParent

I am not a professional visa middleman, but I can say from my many years of visa law (personal experience), UKBA etc etc, that if the wife was given the visa, the son should have been too (application at the same time - this has been well publicised by the UKBA almost to the extent of a sales pitch).

This is factually incorrect. Both applications are just that - separate.

The reason for refusal will be issued automatically and no requirement to be requested. You can address the reason/s for refusal on receipt and little point attempting to second guess, particularly as you've stated that you have little knowledge of what the application consisted of.

Good luck with a possible appeal.

Apologies, the update to the forum seems to have affected quotes.

Edited February 21, 2013 by wooloomooloo

[AngryParent]

@wooloomooloo "This is factually incorrect. Both applications are just that - separate."

No they are not, if applied at the same time! Please do your research on family visas with dependants. If you are talking about only a vist visa then you have some grounds... but, if you are talking about the full mile (spouse visa with dependants) then you are wrong. And the full mile is what the OP is talking about.

Edited February 21, 2013 by AngryParent

[wooloomooloo]

Your assumptions throughout this thread are very loose, AngryParent, and quite worrying.

Please post evidence of where UKBA have publicised that both visas for mother and son should be granted.

Your advice appears to overlook some major points of law.

Fortunately, you're not an immigration lawyer, otherwise you wouldn't spout such drivel.

Edited February 21, 2013 by wooloomooloo

[Jay Sata]

I'm sure your wife wants her son to go to the UK but have you thought this through?

14 is a difficult age for most kids and to learn a new language and adjust to an alien culture is

very hard. I've seen quite a few of my friends go through hell to get a step child to the UK only for them to return to Thailand a few years later.

A stepfathers role is hard at the best of times. You may find the role is going to be difficult and he may drive a wedge between you and your wife.

In my opinion if he has a decent father then he needs him for the next few years.

Edited February 21, 2013 by Jay Sata

[AngryParent]

"Your assumptions throughout this thread are very loose, AngryParent, and quite worrying.

Please post evidence of where UKBA have publicised that both visas for mother and son should be granted.

Your advice appears to overlook some major points of law.

Fortunately, you're not an immigration lawyer, otherwise you wouldn't spout such drivel." (quote)

Oh for crying out loud... you have 4 posts to your name. At the same time you deserve a full answer... 7by7... can you please confirm the situation regarding a spouse and dependant applying at the same time? Where is the link that states that the spouse and the child get treated the same at the same time? I don't get paid for this, anybody that has been around the block will confirm that spouse and dependant applying at the same time get treated the same (unless there is some evidence to diffrentiate).

Edit: what in the world made you state that a mother and son visa should be granted under the law (from my posts)? Kindly read each post, pause at punctuation etc....

Edited February 21, 2013 by AngryParent

[AngryParent]

Just pure speculation that is off topic (but at the same time very on topic), but this seems to be a fairly common occurance in such threads.

Is the visa gap, the political gap, the age gap etc. an issue of lack of communication and understanding between the differnt groups?

Is such a lack of understanding between groups the cause of much division in the UK? Are we (similar people such as myself) excluded from the UK because there is no understanding of the basic XYZ? As a teacher I am well versed in misunderstaings and a lack of comprehension of the other party's meaning. But we are taught to teach that such gaps are workable.

What future is there for our children, if those that are part of the whole, seek a fragmented division?

[beano2274]

The phone call to the father of the boy tells me that the custody issue is not clear and not as she believes it to be.

To the others who have said that at that age having a step father is difficult, yes it is, I had the same experience, I was the child, I hated my step father moving into my fathers shoes, and being the number one for my mum, I caused many problems for them both, but eventually I realised that it was the best thing that happened to my mother. I hope and believe that the OP and the child see eye to eye, and have some kind of good footing before taking the next major step.

[wooloomooloo]

AngryParent. Calm down. Do you understand the

[wooloomooloo]

AngryParent. Do you understand the criteria for each application, i.e. mother and son? Two separate entities.

You have no knowledge of the refusal but spout wild theories based on anecdotal evidence. This doesn't help the OP or viewers in a similar situation.

You are correct, you don't get paid, and quite right too.

[Kevin1908]

 

Could it be that in fact they both have custody and the father has then flatly refused the child to leave Thailand.

 

Not as I understand it but I could be wrong. My wife is adamant that she has custody. Only here say but Embassy phoned up the boy and asked if he had contact with the dad. There is very occasional contact. Asked for the dads phone number. I don't know if they have spoken to him or what has been said but "friend" has said that Embassy turned down application because contact would be lost. (contact to the dad of 3 or 4 meetings a year).

His mum is now going to see her son once a year if she is lucky.

My wife said that the boys dad has no objection to him going to the UK. The actual reason for rejection is unknown by me at the moment.

May be the dad has suddenly got vindictive but not sure why.

[Kevin1908]

 

I'm sure your wife wants her son to go to the UK but have you thought this through?

14 is a difficult age for most kids and to learn a new language and adjust to an alien culture is

very hard. I've seen quite a few of my friends go through hell to get a step child to the UK only for them to return to Thailand a few years later.

A stepfathers role is hard at the best of times. You may find the role is going to be difficult and he may drive a wedge between you and your wife.

In my opinion if he has a decent father then he needs him for the next few years.

 

I am under no illusions here. Not least I have an awkward 16 year old and a 13 year old myself. The boy is adamant he wants to go to the UK and his mum wants him to go. He is working hard at improving his English and he is prepared to put up with what ever it takes.

Given my 16 year old at the moment I think the step son is the least of my problems.

[bobrussell]

Everything hinges on custody. A single parent with sole responsibility applying for a visa for a child at the same time would normally be expected to get the same visa type for the child.

If the other parent is around and capable of looking after the child (ie there is not sole responsibility) then the expectation is that the child will stay with the remaining parent and a visa may well not be issued.

A father deemed capable of caring for a child up to an agreed age may well be considered capable of continuing this care. It is not a case of what the parents or the child want.

Unless it is clarified and demonstrated that your wife has sole responsibility then the visa may be very difficult to get!

Professional advice is required IMO. These are not easy cases (my step-daughters father died before she was born so it was not a problem in our case).

The marriage guidance advice offered on this forum by some can be of variable quality at times. Children, even teenagers can and do adapt very well to life in the UK!

[ThaiVisaExpress]

I will await the GV 51 and give you my thoughts then.

[7by7]

Indeed; speculation is just that, speculation: and most of it in this topic has been totally unfounded.

But I will say that there is no rule, guidance or precedent which states that if a parent and child apply for settlement at the same time and the parent is granted it then the child should be too.

The applications will be considered seperately and both have to meet the relevent requirements of the immigration rules.

[Kevin1908]

I am having problems at the moment with understanding exactly was is going on. I know the wife is pretty upset but at the moment she is in the in one ear and out out the other mode at the moment and not thinking straight. I have asked her to send me her divorce settlement so I can ask my Thai solicitor dealing with my affairs to explain it to me. I also asked her for the rejection letter and she asked me why I want this stuff.

How do you exlpain how important this is. She just thinks that we will appeal and it will all be ok.

As far as I can make out this hinges on the father losing contact but contact is at best spasmodic. If wife goes to the UK then the boy will go to Surat Thani so the dad in Bangkok will lose contact anyway.

I don't want to go into too much speculation without knowing the full facts but assuming the mother has full legal custody and the father is not against his son going to the UK can the Embassy refuse a visa on the basis that the father is losing contact rights. If that was the case then no children would be given visas unless the other parent had died.

[ThaiVisaExpress]

We need to see the GV 51 until we see this we cant advise. if the father has a divorce certificate which confirms he has custody then the courts will need to re-issue a new one. You should really have checked the divorce/custody arrangements before submission and had any documents translated into English.

However its not your fault this is exactly why people employ an immigration consultancy comes into its own the first thing we ask in all child cases is can we see the relevant Thai documents & the custody arrangements of the child.

1. The father is he still involved
2. Does the child visit the father
3. Does the father financially support the child
4. Was you married if so we need to see the Divorce papers these will show any custody arrangements
5. Phor khor 14 ( if not married)

To appeal you must first have a case :

• If the court papers say the father has custody of the child then they maybe right to refuse entry clearance. If the mother was indeed married to him then there is no Phor Khor 14.
• The child was interviewed we would need to see what was said during the call (request this)

Again speculation (GV 51 Required) before we can add anything further. Its again all speculation Kevin it maybe something completely different.