Anti-thaksin Rally Sunday March 5 - The Final Show

[seonai]

Thanks Greg.d - I also agree with you. I don't do boundaries where countries are concerned, creatures of the same planet we are indeed.

Are you guys watching ASTV? It's so cool, lots of good debates.

Seonai

[Jai Dee]

Chamlong expects Thaksin to quit soon

Protest leader Maj-Gen Chamlong Srimuang expects the caretaker prime minister to quit before the scheduled election on April 2.

Maj-Gen Chamlong, whose followers from the Santi Asoke Buddhist sect held an all-night vigil at Sanam Luang last night and are waiting for other demonstrators to join them later today for a second day of anti-Thaksin protests, said he saw no way that Thaksin could continue in office for long.

“For every day that he stays on, there will be more damage done to the country,” Maj-Gen Chamlong said. “All the phu-yai (senior people) in this country have come out to tell him to quit. So I don’t see how he could stay on for long. The best thing is for him to quit as soon as possible,” said Thaksin’s former mentor.

Maj-Gen Chamlong led the front-line march from the Democracy Monument to the Government House late last night before the demonstrators later returned to Sanam Luang and disbursed about one hour after midnight. The only group left behind which spent the night there, comprised about 1,500 members of Maj-Gen Chamlong’s Dharma Army.

Source: ThaiDay - 6 Feb, 2006

[jdinasia]

OK .. is anyone else guessing with a cynical smile that the resignation IF it happens will not come until AFTER his 2 billion dollar payday? (March 9th I think?)

[Jai Dee]

Pol. Lt. Gen. Wiroj confirms police officials can take care of the anti-Thaksin protest

Metropolitan Police Commander Wiroj Chandransi (วิโรจน์ จันทรังษี) said that police officials will be able to handle and control the group of protestors who are demanding Prime Minister Thaksin Shinawatra to resign from this position. The commander disclosed that the previously implemented measures will be used to provide public security during the rally this evening.

Pol. Lt. Gen. Wiroj said he has evaluated the rally last night and indicated that the officials can still control the demonstrators’ movement. He believes that violence would not occur if the protestors understand and respect the rules and regulation. He also urged the protestors to think of the national benefits and not to destroy public properties.

The Metropolitan Police Commander admitted that the authorities have been reported about the third party who concealed themselves among the demonstrators. Nevertheless, the officials were able to contain any possible violence. He has requested the general public to immediately inform the authorities if they witness any suspicious activity.

Source: Thai National News Bureau Public Relations Department - 06 March 2006

[Plus]

Someone mentioned that 30 baht scheme is the only available healthcare program. That's not true. Even now we have Social Security program, even farangs.

Back then the National Healthcare System was under consideration. Unfortunately the man responsible for developing that, Ammar Siamwalla, is one of Taksin's regular critics and no way his proposal was going to make it.

I have never met Chamlong, but he is a respectable figure. He spent last few years in self-imposed exile after losing Bangkok governor elections to Bhichit Rattakul. He might be a very strict buddhist himself, but there was no "1 AM closing time" or "cigarettes are sold here" nonsense when he was a governor.

His first public fallout with Thaksin happened over Liverpool lottery scam (I mentioned it in some other thread as well).

I don't know what his stance on war on drugs was, he became Taksin's advisor after that, and I don't think it's particulalry important now because Chamlong is not going to actively engage in politics anymore.

All they (PAD) have to do is to lay groundwork for truly democratic elections, and working system of checks an balances, and work on decentralisation and empowering people at the grassroots. Taksin beat the system once, now it whould be restored and strenghtened.

The issues surrounding Taksin are not for the general public to decide through elections. Preferably he should be tried in courts, with highly qualified prosecutors and the best defence he could buy (not the best judges he could buy).

Even if his fate were put to a referendum, like a trial at the ballot box, it should be only after an open and thorough public discussion about all the details of his stock transactions and use of his children as nominees. And the question put to the public should be only about his guilty or not-guilty verdict. If found guilty he is not qualified to stand in the elections.

[CrazyFrog]

This Rally is just a waste of time in my opinion!

Even if Thaksin resign, Thai people will not be in better hands and probably, in baddiest hands!

There's no advantage for anybody except for Sondhi who's frustrated to no make his show on TV and for other more corrupt parties to see a chance to get the power.

That's just a waste of time!

Sources from my relatives around Thailand confirm that many peoples supporting Thaksin are on the way to Bangkok!

Many? Not many as it need probably to calm the Anti-Taksin rally because many of them are thinking that by coming to make an affrontment will just bring the situation in violence.

One thing is sure! Taksin is actually the only one to limit the exploitation of Thai people under a corrupt party! The others will seriously just put the money in their pockets!

During the last election campaign I was living in Upcountry and I can tell You that all the other parties was coming everyday in villages to give money, give water to farmers, pay food, juice for the kids! Long time ago, these ways to buy people was working in Upcountry but now, many from the new generation are more educated and not will let their families fall in a trap like that because if they vote for them, that's for sure that they're not there anymore after they've been elected.

For the actual situation, the best way to have a country under a good politic system is to take time to built a good party with good candidates!

That's my opinion about that!

What's the point to ask Taksin to resign if it's to give the country in baddiest hands?

Thai's are not so stupid!

It's not just a small 0.65% of a population of 65 millions who can decide for the whole country!

This 0.65% is probably the TV audience of Sondhi who's not happy to sit in front of their antenna TVs to watch their clown show!

They're trying to bring the country again in a revolution and I hope that they're not gonna made it!

Even in democratic countries, we call that rebellion and many can be arrested!

If I was living around the area where protesters are walking and making noise during all night, but in democratic countries, it's Civil Disorder and it's not tolerate at all!

The king will not take position in this situation!

So where we're going!

Revolution?

So let's bring the UN in Thailand or <deleted> and be patient, create a Better Party with clean candidates, good Political plans and we'll go vote!

Edited March 6, 2006 by CrazyFrog

[jdinasia]

sometimes a screenname is just too accurate! ^^

[ShingDam]

Hello

it seemed many people are amused about what is going on.

Is somebody is thinking about currency stability and about the saving on the bank.

I realized that the interest jumps up crazily and that the banks dont want to serve the people

with money and credit.

Yes of course that is normal in crisis times, but could it be an indiz (what i guessed a long time already) that the true inflation is much more high than the real one and that after the PM will step down another suprise is waiting for us.

I appoligize for my bad english

shingdam

[englishoak]

So let's bring the UN in Thailand or <deleted> and be patient, create a Better Party with clean candidates, good Political plans and we'll go vote!

OH MY GOD What a thought.

Yes of course that is normal in crisis times, but could it be an indiz (what i guessed a long time already) that the true inflation is much more high than the real one and that after the PM will step down another suprise is waiting for us.

I think you are right ...... there will be a surprise after this is all done...... I just hope it's not too bad.

[CrazyFrog]

So let's bring the UN in Thailand or <deleted> and be patient, create a Better Party with clean candidates, good Political plans and we'll go vote!

OH MY GOD What a thought.

Better be ridiculous like this 0.65%!

But to keep Thaksin there untill a better party's created, I think it should be a better solution than bring the country in a Kaos or in more corrupted hands!

Let see the next one at the power but I'm sure it will be the mistake of Thailand!

Anyways, that's not 0.65% of the population who's gonna decide for the rest and I think that Thaksin by declaring a new election was the fair act to do!

The only thing, to fall on the head of these protesters, the election should be in March as soon as possible!

Edited March 6, 2006 by CrazyFrog

[gurkle]

Since everyone has already made up their mind by now, I think the real questions are:

-How many people does it take to overthrow a democracy?

-How far is the opposition willing to go once people get bored of the weekly protests?

With their most prominent issue being legal tax avoidance by the PM, I doubt the opposition will get enough support from the people to do much. The opposition seems like mostly nice people trying to protect their careers versus those with a burning ideology of how they want to transform the country.

Edited March 6, 2006 by gurkle

[CrazyFrog]

I wanna correct my percentage of Anti-Thaksin protesters!

That's not 0.65% of the Thai population!

It's about 0.20% if we count out the kids who don't have the legal age to vote!

It look like a big power with the Media but that's absolutly ridiculous!

I would like that this situation happen in my country!

We'll have fun!

[jdinasia]

Yet again .. someone that doesn't realize that calling for this snap election was just plain wrong. Dissolving parlaiment was meant to be done when the Government and Parlaiment were not working together. In this case the dissolution of parlaiment was done by one man to consolidate his power.

Ethics is the issue.

I guess expecting someone to understand ethics is just too improbable. The issue that the DAP is working with is NOT .. have illegal things happened. The issue is the morality of a man that acts for personal gain instead of living up to the high standards that should be applied to the head of the government. The biggest reason that Thaksin got into office was that people thought he was rich enough to be above working only for himself.

[CrazyFrog]

Quote

Yet again .. someone that doesn't realize that calling for this snap election was just plain wrong. Dissolving parlaiment was meant to be done when the Government and Parlaiment were not working together. In this case the dissolution of parlaiment was done by one man to consolidate his power.

I understand that it was not necessary the good decision but for the Thai people, they see it fair!

Wich choice he was having if more then the majority of Thai citizen want that he still at the power?

Edited March 6, 2006 by CrazyFrog

[Ricardo]

Since everyone has already made up their mind by now, I think the real questions are:

-How many people does it take to overthrow a democracy?

One - if he is a dictator, and nobody stands up, against him.

-How far is the opposition willing to go once people get bored of the weekly protests?

I don't see any sign of the PAD running-down yet, do you ? I think it is now clear that, with many peaceful protests behind them, they will not get violent. Would you say that the pro-Thaksin people feel the same ? If so, then good for Thailand & its young democracy, that people can respect each other's different views.

With their most prominent issue being legal tax avoidance by the PM, I doubt the opposition will get enough support from the people to do much, either politically or militarily.

Where do you get the idea from, that there is any desire amongst the opposition, for a military solution ? The armed forces are staying out of this. The police are carrying out their duties calmly, except for being a little zealous, in turning-back opposition-rally supporters. Well done all !

I don't agree that tax avoidance is the only serious issue, so perhaps the other issues may win them more support, I don't think things will go quiet after 2nd April, however.

[Ricardo]

Quote

Yet again .. someone that doesn't realize that calling for this snap election was just plain wrong. Dissolving parlaiment was meant to be done when the Government and Parlaiment were not working together. In this case the dissolution of parlaiment was done by one man to consolidate his power.

I understand that it was not necessary the good decision but for the Thai people, they see it fair!

Wich choice he was having if more then the majority of Thai citizen want that he still at the power?

Not all of the Thai people see the decision to dissolve parliament, at short notice, as being fair.

He could have resigned as PM, leaving TRT to elect a new PM, and continue to carry out their election-policies. The opposition were calling for his resignation only. So why dissolve parliament ?

And the Thai voters had voted for TRT, not just for Thaksin, hadn't they ? So why let all those TRT-supporters down - as he did ?

[englishoak]

But to keep Thaksin there untill a better party's created, I think it should be a better solution than bring the country in a Kaos or in more corrupted hands

I expect Mr T has made more money personally than any other leader in the past by abusing his position as PM....... Corruption is a point of view. I happen to think,avoiding Tax, changing laws to do it and almost gloating about it is about as corrupt as you can get. Not much difference than taking money from a drug barron in my view, we are talking massive amounts of money here........ These are not the only issues either.

I wanna correct my percentage of Anti-Thaksin protesters!

That's not 0.65% of the Thai population!

It's about 0.20% if we count out the kids who don't have the legal age to vote!

Ok Thai Guru whatever keeps your little bubble happy.

Where do you get the idea from, that there is any desire amongst the opposition, for a military solution ? The armed forces are staying out of this. The police are carrying out their duties calmly, except for being a little zealous, in turning-back opposition-rally supporters. Well done all !

Agreed and hope it will continue.

[ColPyat]

I have never met Chamlong, but he is a respectable figure. He spent last few years in self-imposed exile after losing Bangkok governor elections to Bhichit Rattakul. He might be a very strict buddhist himself, but there was no "1 AM closing time" or "cigarettes are sold here" nonsense when he was a governor.

His first public fallout with Thaksin happened over Liverpool lottery scam (I mentioned it in some other thread as well).

I don't know what his stance on war on drugs was, he became Taksin's advisor after that, and I don't think it's particulalry important now because Chamlong is not going to actively engage in politics anymore.

His stand on the war against drugs was that he was a TRT member and did not see the mass slaughter as a reason to criticise Thaksin. He only criticised Thaksin on issues involving the "sale of the country".

Chamlong is a respectable figure under a certain group of Bangkokians (and appearantly some farang), but he is despised by others who accuse him of being at least partly responsible for the '92 bloodshed. Upcountry people do not care about him at all.

And him not being "actively" involved in politics? I don't know what else you would call being one of the main leaders of the alliance now, that he is. Just because someone does not wish to have an officially elected position does not mean that he is not "actively" involved in politics.

He is well known to be an extreme nationalist. I always wonder why westerners accept and support public figures from developing nations coming out with xenophobic crap. The same sort of political opinions voiced in western countries earn rightfully the label 'fascist'.

Have you listened to the speaches during the demonstrations? A lot is unbearably xenophobic, for me at least.

Thank you, as much as i dislike Thaksin, i have at least as much dislike towards fascists, wherever they may be from.

Edited March 6, 2006 by ColPyat

[JT65]

I have never met Chamlong, but he is a respectable figure. He spent last few years in self-imposed exile after losing Bangkok governor elections to Bhichit Rattakul. He might be a very strict buddhist himself, but there was no "1 AM closing time" or "cigarettes are sold here" nonsense when he was a governor.

His first public fallout with Thaksin happened over Liverpool lottery scam (I mentioned it in some other thread as well).

I don't know what his stance on war on drugs was, he became Taksin's advisor after that, and I don't think it's particulalry important now because Chamlong is not going to actively engage in politics anymore.

His stand on the war against drugs was that he was a TRT member and did not see the mass slaughter as a reason to criticise Thaksin. He only criticised Thaksin on issues involving the "sale of the country".

Chamlong is a respectable figure under a certain group of Bangkokians (and appearantly some farang), but he is despised by others who accuse him of being at least partly responsible for the '92 bloodshed. Upcountry people do not care about him at all.

And him not being "actively" involved in politics? I don't know what else you would call being one of the main leaders of the alliance now, that he is. Just because someone does not wish to have an officially elected position does not mean that he is not "actively" involved in politics.

He is well known to be an extreme nationalist. I always wonder why westerners accept and support public figures from developing nations coming out with xenophobic crap. The same sort of political opinions voiced in western countries earn rightfully the label 'fascist'.

Have you listened to the speaches during the demonstrations? A lot is unbearably xenophobic, for me at least.

Thank you, as much as i dislike Thaksin, i have at least as much dislike towards fascists, wherever they may be from.

I agree with this post 100%. In Asia they seem to be able to say anything they like about Westerners and we tolerate it. Once a Western Government says anything to offend them we are a bunch of racists.

[opothai]

I agree with this post 100%. In Asia they seem to be able to say anything they like about Westerners and we tolerate it. Once a Western Government says anything to offend them we are a bunch of racists.

ah but with the west being educated, we should know better, or at least that is what we are told,

the two ways to the thai voter as i can read it so far are

1 MONEY

2 patriotism bordering on xenaphobia

taxin has the money

[gurkle]

Where do you get the idea from, that there is any desire amongst the opposition, for a military solution ? The armed forces are staying out of this. The police are carrying out their duties calmly, except for being a little zealous, in turning-back opposition-rally supporters. Well done all !

I don't agree that tax avoidance is the only serious issue, so perhaps the other issues may win them more support, I don't think things will go quiet after 2nd April, however.

I see two options for the opposition:

1-incite violence. in which case thaksin wins since they don't have that much support in terms of numbers (some middle-class/elite vs the majority). Plus while Sondi seems fanatical the political parties appear more rational.

2-non-violence. in which case thaksin simply stays in office.

Even though the farangs here like citing other reasons for ousting Thaksin, the opposition's main point is tax avoidance. It seems like people's favorite reason for ousting Thaksin is the drug war, but I haven't heard the opposition bring this up themselves.

Edited March 6, 2006 by gurkle

[ColPyat]

I agree with this post 100%. In Asia they seem to be able to say anything they like about Westerners and we tolerate it. Once a Western Government says anything to offend them we are a bunch of racists.

ah but with the west being educated, we should know better, or at least that is what we are told,

the two ways to the thai voter as i can read it so far are

1 MONEY

2 patriotism bordering on xenaphobia

taxin has the money

The west doesn't know better, as we can clearly read in the poster who advocated "wiping out" all Muslims in another thread.

And if you think that Thai voters only vote for the reasons you mentioned you are very mistaken (as the urban based leadership of the alliance is). TRT has genuine support in the villages, and to a large part because TRT is so far the first political party who has built up a continous presence in even the most distant village with regular meetings. No other political party has ever done that in Thailand, they only came for the elections and were not seen after.

This is the first time village people have been actively involved in politics here in Thailand.

I don't state that because i am a supporter of Thaksin, which i am not. This is a fact.

Even though the farangs here like citing other reasons for ousting Thaksin, the opposition's main point is tax avoidance. It seems like people's favorite reason for ousting Thaksin is the drug war, but I haven't heard the opposition bring this up themselves.

Absolutely true.

Most of the vocal opposition, like Sondhi and Chamlong, were still all cushy with Thaksin while the drugwar slaughters still went on.

I am one of the farang whose one of the main reasons to despise Thaksin is the drugwar slaughters.

Personally, the tax evasion is a minor issue for me, rather amusing, in fact.

[lung]

zero news ??

i remember some "we will stay untill" and deadline and some groups are strike ??

in the morning i see it on 'deutschewelle' and 'cnn'

but in thainews only the "pro"- cutting....

i m to quick or the other to slowly

or nothing happen

maybe all a joke or some promo

viva la viva la ....

[penzman]

penzman, why so angry? I did say I also make mistakes, but for a post to be read and understood, it has to have a minimum of correctness and clarity. Or is it just me again...? Ah, off topic again, sorry!

Hey, we have members from all over the world whose mother tongue IS NOT english, Penzman included.

It clearly can't be expected of everyone to be a good speller. If the poster's comment isn't clear, one can always ask for a better explanation, politely, without sarcasm, for all to see or by Private Message. We have had a few comments regarding grammar or spelling lately. Maybe we just have too many members who were once part of The FACULTÉ DES LETTRES AT THE SORBONNE, descendants of Shakespeare or retired winners from Wheel of Fortune?

OK .. is anyone else guessing with a cynical smile that the resignation IF it happens will not come until AFTER his 2 billion dollar payday? (March 9th I think?)

Wouldn't surprise me at all...

[LaoPo]

For those who are interested in a lot of backgrounds, read this:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thaksin_Shinawatra

LaoPo

[ColPyat]

zero news ??

i remember some "we will stay untill" and deadline and some groups are strike ??

in the morning i see it on 'deutschewelle' and 'cnn'

but in thainews only the "pro"- cutting....

i m to quick or the other to slowly

or nothing happen

maybe all a joke or some promo

viva la viva la ....

Channel 7 news just said that the next big one will be at the 13th, and early hours of the 14th will be a march to the government house again to give Thaksin a letter in the morning. There was also a bit of life coverage during the evening on channel 7.

Edited March 6, 2006 by ColPyat

[lung]

aahh... some news we have >>

PAD announces no march Monday night

The People's Alliance for Democracy announced it would not stage a march from Sanam Luang to Government House but would wait until March 14 before marching again.

Pipop Thongchai, a PAD leader, said the PAD resolved that another rally would be held at Sanam Luang at 4 pm on March 13 and the rally would continue until 7 am on March 14 and the protesters would march to Government House to submit a letter to call on Prime Minister Thaksin to resign.

He said the PAD would continue small rallies until calling another big rally on March 13.

Speculation has it that the PAD might move protesters again to pressure Thaksin to resign after staging a big procession Sunday night.

-----------------------------------------------------------

Report fairly, TV told

Media Monitor, a watchdog on news reporting, yesterday called on the five state-controlled television stations and iTV to report fairly on rallies against caretaker Prime Minister Thaksin Shinawatra.

Political news reports from Channel 3, 5, 7, 9, 11 and iTV were presented in the government's favour, judging by news relating to the anti-Thaksin rallies on February 4, 11 and 26, the watchdog said.

In terms of time allocation, every station increased its news coverage of the February 26 rally in comparison to the two previous rallies, but the increased reports accounted for a smaller proportion of coverage compared to other political news dominated by the government.

Channels 3 and 5 had the least time allocated for political news, while iTV had the most coverage.

For objectivity, no station inserted opinions into news reports. Even though certain TV reporters appeared to have certain opinions, these did not reach a level of impeding objective reporting.

With regard to balanced reporting, every station aired the views of rival parties and those of neutral figures - but failed to give equal time for each side.

Every station fell short on fairness conveyed via images, voices and content of news clippings. Television news gave government figures more prominent coverage than their opponents.

Although news reports after February 26 allowed a greater coverage of anti-Thaksin campaigners, government figures still dominated television news.

Chulalongkorn University lecturer Wisalinee Pipitkul said every station provided extensive coverage of the pro-government rally on Friday and featured Thaksin's speech in the reports. The anti-Thaksin rallies did not receive the same treatment, she said.

---------------------------------------------------------------------

Army chief orders Channel 5 to cover anti-Thaksin protest

Army Commander-in-Chief Gen Sondhi Boonyaratklin has instructed the editorial department of Channel 5 to cover and report on the demonstration against Prime Minister Thaksin Shinawatra at Sanam Luang.

A well-informed source said Sondhi ordered the editorial staff to make reports accurate and fair to all sides.

---------------------------------------------------------------------

Labour unions move against Thaksin

(TNA) - Workers unions at state enterprises today promised 'power to the people' beginning next Monday. Unions members are turning off their meters, and letting the water and electricity flow -- at no charge to consumers -- until caretaker Prime Minister Thaksin Shinawatra leaves office.

Thais may have 'free' tapwater and electricity for a indefinite period of time beginning next Monday because state enterprise union members are turning off the controls in Thailand's public utilities and converging on Bangkok to join countrywide calls for Mr. Thaksin to resign.

Pian Yongnu, leader of an alliance of five water and electricity agency labour groups announced Monday that the workers groups will meet with the State Enterprise Relations Federation this Thursday and help press the caretaker prime minister to step down by allowing the people to use tapwater and electricity free of charge during their planned protest.

Tapwater and electricity will be supplied as usual to consumers nationwide, but no usage fees will be levied against them during the time that the state enterprise union members will be absent from their duties, he said.

Instead they will be in Bangkok, urging Mr. Thaksin to resign in response to the Shin Corp stock sell-off and concerns of possible tax-evasion.

Personnel of the state firms--the Electricity Generating Authority of Thailand (EGAT), the Metropolitan Electricity Authority (MEA), the Provincial Electricity Authority (PEA), the Metropolitan Waterworks

Authority (MWWA) and the Provincial Waterworks Authority (PWA), plan to conduct a work stoppage from next Monday in protest of the caretaker prime minister.

------------------------------------

sounds like a good plan

------------------------------------

all by the

The Nation & Post edit by edith...

Edited March 6, 2006 by lung

[sriracha john]

Practically speaking - none of the visible police officers at the demonstrations carry guns, they also have so far given in all demands.

As I didn't watch much of Sunday's rally, I can't comment, but all the officers I watched on Monday's follow-up rally had their side-arms with them.

[Ricardo]

Channel 7 news just said that the next big one will be at the 13th, and early hours of the 14th will be a march to the government house again to give Thaksin a letter in the morning. There was also a bit of life coverage during the evening on channel 7.

In fact I saw a little box on the screen, throughout the late-evening Channel-7 soap-operas, with what looked like a live-feed from the rally, where there were still plenty of people. This was for at least 1-1/2 hours, so more than 'a bit'. Wonder how they managed that ?

So the rally is still very much up-and-running.

[Ricardo]

I see two options for the opposition:

1-incite violence. in which case thaksin wins since they don't have that much support in terms of numbers (some middle-class/elite vs the majority). Plus while Sondi seems fanatical the political parties appear more rational.

2-non-violence. in which case thaksin simply stays in office.

And I would repeat that, so far, I've seen no evidence of any inciting violence amongst the opposition, but plenty of calls for remaining calm, and not being violent. In fact, I'm impressed that everyone involved, while passionate about their cause, is being so self-controlled.

The only violent incidents I'm aware of, were a few bombings (2 Manager-Group offices & Dharma-Army office) and the 'volunteer' forestry-workers being bussed-down from Chiang-Rai to Bangkok, for a couple of the Sondhi-rallies, which might have been seen as intimidation. The fire in the TV-channel electricity-truck may have just been an accident, the short-lived kidnapping at Chiang-Mai University was clearly just an individual nutter (albeit politically-inspired), and a few threats.

This is good news, and can only enhance Thailand's reputation, overseas. I pray that it stays this way.