How Corrupt Is Thailand, Your Perception.

[wilcopops]

Who disagrees that every 1st world country was built on a history of bribery and corruption that was probably more endemic than what we see in Thailand today?

Thailand is still several generations away from maturing into a true democracy and can be compared to the social/economic/political climate in England or the USA in the late 19th century. Bribery and corruption was the very grease that oiled the wheels of industrial and political development.

A true democracy is a Nation that has managed to convince its own people they are getting a fair deal and are free of corruption, while casually applying more Vaseline to their nether regions - i.e still equally as corrupt, just not as visible as it is in places like Thailand.

A very naive point of view if you ask me - you assume that ALL countries go through the same line of development - which is patently not the case, so the rest of your proposition falls flat on it's face.

[Gsxrnz]

Who disagrees that every 1st world country was built on a history of bribery and corruption that was probably more endemic than what we see in Thailand today?

Thailand is still several generations away from maturing into a true democracy and can be compared to the social/economic/political climate in England or the USA in the late 19th century. Bribery and corruption was the very grease that oiled the wheels of industrial and political development.

A true democracy is a Nation that has managed to convince its own people they are getting a fair deal and are free of corruption, while casually applying more Vaseline to their nether regions - i.e still equally as corrupt, just not as visible as it is in places like Thailand.

A very naive point of view if you ask me - you assume that ALL countries go through the same line of development - which is patently not the case, so the rest of your proposition falls flat on it's face.

All current 1st world countries went through the social/political/economic evolution that I have suggested.

Can you name one that didn't?

I believe it's a reasonable supposition to assume that Thailand will eventually attain the same level of supposed corruption-free true democracy in time. This is especially so with globalisation of the banking and financial sector, and the need to be more conformist by international standards. Politically speaking, Thailand is in short pants at the moment but they are slowly waking up to the need for change.

It will take a generational change to really start the ball rolling.

Anyway, you seem to have missed the main point of my post - 1st world democratic countries are no less corrupt than Thailand in real terms. They just screw us in a different way.

[hanno]

I live in Cambodia which sits about 100 spots behind Thailand on the corruption index. How corrupt is Thailand. Compared to Cambodia hardly at ll. All a matter of perspective.

[kotsak]

"All who have ever written on government are unanimous, that among a people generally corrupt, liberty cannot long exist."

Edmund Burke - Letter to the Sheriffs of Bristol (1777).

[pistachios]

Just a few examples

- a school director used the budget to build a library to buy himself a new BMW

- killer cop slam dunk case is stopped even before it reaches the judge's office

- money and connection can make the most horrible crimes disappear like the cop killed in a night club by ***

- national park land parcels are being sold by high officials

- minister says in the media it is normal to give cops tea money when caught by CCTV

- village mayor build himself a new villa as soon as he is elected

- public buses are being bought for 20 times their actual value

The common point in all those cases is that even when the story reaches the media, nothing is being done to stop it and nobody is ever being punished.

Knowing all that, I find it very surprising that there are still some national forests left in the country, that the cops don't harass any shop owner or kill anybody they dislike, or that officials don't blatantly steal even more public money. After all, nothing at all is set in place to at least kind of restraint those behaviors.

Thailand is actually a pretty well run country when looking at the big picture. Hospitals, electricity, schools, infrastructure, etc. are ok-ish. It seems like corrupted persons have some kind of self restraint to prevent the country from complete failure. But greed has no limits, and since there is currently no downside and no risk at all to being corrupt, I fear that it could become much worse.

some of the points you mentioned are embezzlement, theft, fraud but not corruption.

Embezzlement, theft and fraud are a direct result of corruption. In all of the point I mentionned, a corrupt government official used his power for personal gain or as a favor to some of his connection. If you don't see corruption there, I suggest you open your dictionnary and check the definition of the word.

and i suggest you open your dictionary and look up how to spell the word.

Hint : a dictioNary can be used to understand the meaning of a word, not only its correct spelling. You really should stop your miserable attempt at being witty, it fails completely.

[pistachios]

I suggest Naam that you think a little more about the range and scope of corrupt activities in Thailand rather than engaging in pettifogging quibbles over semantics....or inappropriate attempts at spelling correction.

i hear, read and face corrupt activities in Thailand. that does not mean i have to follow your suggestion to "think a little more about it". being a pragmatic i find it a waste of time thinking or whining in a public forum about corruption because it won't change anything.

So don't waste your time replying to a post and saying theft, fraud and embezzlement performed by a government official is not corruption, it will really show everybody you didn't think at all and make you look less intelligent than you probably are.

[wilcopops]

GSX - As someone who really understands the study of history, I can tell you that you are writing nonsense and your arguments are spurious - so an answer would be to join in the nonsense which I don't intend to do.....your premise is wrong so all your following propositions are irrelevant.

I can't argue with someone who hasn't got a point in the first place.

[Thereisnoif]

This country was built on corruption, and corruption is well and truly accepted by a very large majority of the population. All they wish is to be on the receiving end of the corrupt trough. I don't condone this, but this is an indisputable fact .

[Naam]

I suggest Naam that you think a little more about the range and scope of corrupt activities in Thailand rather than engaging in pettifogging quibbles over semantics....or inappropriate attempts at spelling correction.

i hear, read and face corrupt activities in Thailand. that does not mean i have to follow your suggestion to "think a little more about it". being a pragmatic i find it a waste of time thinking or whining in a public forum about corruption because it won't change anything.

So don't waste your time replying to a post and saying theft, fraud and embezzlement performed by a government official is not corruption, it will really show everybody you didn't think at all and make you look less intelligent than you probably are.

for the record: i will reply to a post whenever i please and i couldn't care less what "it shows to everybody". and i don't need a dictionary to know that corruption, theft and embezzlement are completely different animals whether committed by a government official, my gardener or my dogs.

by the way, my politeness (notorious especially in this forum) prevents me to tell you where you can shove any of your advice

[Naam]

This country was built on corruption, and corruption is well and truly accepted by a very large majority of the population. All they wish is to be on the receiving end of the corrupt trough. I don't condone this, but this is an indisputable fact .

corruption is a matter of perspective. when, being a newbie in an African country, i bitched about obvious corruption i got a lecture that, what i considered corruption, are "accepted standards and norms in this country". less than a year later i had to agree and enjoyed the "accepted standards" because they made life much easier.

summary: if a large majority of the population agrees with corruption or with whatchamacallit a democratic sanctioning does exist and we Farang outsiders have no right to bitch about it

[Gsxrnz]

GSX - As someone who really understands the study of history, I can tell you that you are writing nonsense and your arguments are spurious - so an answer would be to join in the nonsense which I don't intend to do.....your premise is wrong so all your following propositions are irrelevant.

I can't argue with someone who hasn't got a point in the first place.

So why not take the time to educate me? You say I'm writing nonsense and my arguments are spurious, yet you provide no theory of your own to support your claim, other than that you claim to be "someone who really understands the study of history".

I can't argue with somebody who doesn't put forward a hypothesis to support their argument. Or is your hypothesis that you're always right and the fact that you "really understand the study of history" should be sufficient to claim that anybody with a theory that differs from your own is inherently wrong?

Oh don't bother, I find your posts depressing enough as it is....and usually argumentative.

Edited July 9, 2013 by Gsxrnz

[Naam]

As someone who really understands the study of history...

please elaborate. how does one "really understand the study of history"? does one study first the study, and after understanding the study one progresses (based on the understanding) to study history?

[pistachios]

I suggest Naam that you think a little more about the range and scope of corrupt activities in Thailand rather than engaging in pettifogging quibbles over semantics....or inappropriate attempts at spelling correction.

i hear, read and face corrupt activities in Thailand. that does not mean i have to follow your suggestion to "think a little more about it". being a pragmatic i find it a waste of time thinking or whining in a public forum about corruption because it won't change anything.

So don't waste your time replying to a post and saying theft, fraud and embezzlement performed by a government official is not corruption, it will really show everybody you didn't think at all and make you look less intelligent than you probably are.

for the record: i will reply to a post whenever i please and i couldn't care less what "it shows to everybody". and i don't need a dictionary to know that corruption, theft and embezzlement are completely different animals whether committed by a government official, my gardener or my dogs.

by the way, my politeness (notorious especially in this forum) prevents me to tell you where you can shove any of your advice

For the record : someone who says he doesn't have time to think about corruption, doesn't care about corruption, but actively follows a 13 pages thread about corruption just to post idiotic comments is making a fool of himself.

I'd give you a shovel but you are digging your hole deeper and deeper without any help.

Yes, theft, embezzlement and fraud are not exactly the same as corruption. But what does a corrupt government official do? He commits, among other crimes and offenses, theft, fraud and embezzlement.

I feel like I'm trying to explain a basic idea to a small children. I hope this extremely difficult logic was not too hard to comprehend.

[jpinx]

Maybe this will help folks get things in proportion.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-23231318#

Thailand is by no means the worst in the world, but possibly is the worst in most of TV members' experience

[NewlyMintedThai]

Most TV members secretly wish Thailand were just like home...except with cheaper whores. Cheap whores, of course, being a result of the corruption their whinging on and on about...

[wilcopops]

Naam - May I suggest that let go! Some arguments cannot be won You took a stance that was untenable and now are trying to cover up for the unfortunate comment but you are just making yourself look ore and more daft.

Edited July 9, 2013 by wilcopops

[Naam]

Who disagrees that every 1st world country was built on a history of bribery and corruption that was probably more endemic than what we see in Thailand today?

Thailand is still several generations away from maturing into a true democracy and can be compared to the social/economic/political climate in England or the USA in the late 19th century. Bribery and corruption was the very grease that oiled the wheels of industrial and political development.

A true democracy is a Nation that has managed to convince its own people they are getting a fair deal and are free of corruption, while casually applying more Vaseline to their nether regions - i.e still equally as corrupt, just not as visible as it is in places like Thailand.

I suggest Naam that you think a little more about the range and scope of corrupt activities in Thailand rather than engaging in pettifogging quibbles over semantics....or inappropriate attempts at spelling correction.

i hear, read and face corrupt activities in Thailand. that does not mean i have to follow your suggestion to "think a little more about it". being a pragmatic i find it a waste of time thinking or whining in a public forum about corruption because it won't change anything.

QED! - However - If you are going to make any intelligent comments then I suggest you think about it a little before you put finger to keyboard.

Another Geman quote.

"

“Only a fool learns from his own mistakes. The wise man learns from the mistakes of others.”

if you think your comment is an intelligent one think again. what did you learn from the "mistakes" committed by Thai corruption? and what are the benefits you derived from learning?

you have no answer? i thought as much!

[Naam]

Naam - May I suggest that let go! Some arguments cannot be won You took a stance that was untenable and now are trying to cover up for the unfortunate comment but you are just making yourself look ore and more daft.

what you need is a little life experience instead of attacking the opinions of others. go ahead and play Don Expat-Quijote fighting corruption in Thailand with your keyboard. you have my blessing

[Naam]

For the record : someone who says he doesn't have time to think about corruption, doesn't care about corruption, but actively follows a 13 pages thread about corruption just to post idiotic comments is making a fool of himself.

I'd give you a shovel but you are digging your hole deeper and deeper without any help.

Yes, theft, embezzlement and fraud are not exactly the same as corruption. But what does a corrupt government official do? He commits, among other crimes and offenses, theft, fraud and embezzlement.

I feel like I'm trying to explain a basic idea to a small children. I hope this extremely difficult logic was not too hard to comprehend.

you are about crossing a line my [not so] learned naïve friend! why don't you get rid of your frustration by throwing gravel at passing little old Thai ladies and shout "down with corruption!" ?

did the 100 Baht you paid lately to a corrupt police officer hurt your budget that much? that should teach you a lesson driving around on a Honda Wave with a defective brakelight!

[NeverSure]

For the record : someone who says he doesn't have time to think about corruption, doesn't care about corruption, but actively follows a 13 pages thread about corruption just to post idiotic comments is making a fool of himself.

I'd give you a shovel but you are digging your hole deeper and deeper without any help.

Yes, theft, embezzlement and fraud are not exactly the same as corruption. But what does a corrupt government official do? He commits, among other crimes and offenses, theft, fraud and embezzlement.

I feel like I'm trying to explain a basic idea to a small children. I hope this extremely difficult logic was not too hard to comprehend.

you are about crossing a line my [not so] learned naïve friend! why don't you get rid of your frustration by throwing gravel at passing little old Thai ladies and shout "down with corruption!" ?

did the 100 Baht you paid lately to a corrupt police officer hurt your budget that much? that should teach you a lesson driving around on a Honda Wave with a defective brakelight!

Naam, you know the old saying about arguing with the ignorant...

[pistachios]

For the record : someone who says he doesn't have time to think about corruption, doesn't care about corruption, but actively follows a 13 pages thread about corruption just to post idiotic comments is making a fool of himself.

I'd give you a shovel but you are digging your hole deeper and deeper without any help.

Yes, theft, embezzlement and fraud are not exactly the same as corruption. But what does a corrupt government official do? He commits, among other crimes and offenses, theft, fraud and embezzlement.

I feel like I'm trying to explain a basic idea to a small children. I hope this extremely difficult logic was not too hard to comprehend.

you are about crossing a line my [not so] learned naïve friend! why don't you get rid of your frustration by throwing gravel at passing little old Thai ladies and shout "down with corruption!" ?

did the 100 Baht you paid lately to a corrupt police officer hurt your budget that much? that should teach you a lesson driving around on a Honda Wave with a defective brakelight!

Another pathetic attempt at being witty. At least it seemed you understood my post and stopped trying miserably to redefine what is corruption. That's a good result.

Now for the rest of your post, I have no idea <deleted> you are babbling about. What frustration? Some forum members can be irritating but you just amuse me. Have I written anything about petty corruption? I think not. Are you already drunk at this time of the day? That would explain a lot but you should ask quickly for medical help.

[benalibina]

Who is wise ? Who calls it quits ? Who forgives ? Who feels sorry for the other(s) ?

[Naam]

For the record : someone who says he doesn't have time to think about corruption, doesn't care about corruption, but actively follows a 13 pages thread about corruption just to post idiotic comments is making a fool of himself.

I'd give you a shovel but you are digging your hole deeper and deeper without any help.

Yes, theft, embezzlement and fraud are not exactly the same as corruption. But what does a corrupt government official do? He commits, among other crimes and offenses, theft, fraud and embezzlement.

I feel like I'm trying to explain a basic idea to a small children. I hope this extremely difficult logic was not too hard to comprehend.

you are about crossing a line my [not so] learned naïve friend! why don't you get rid of your frustration by throwing gravel at passing little old Thai ladies and shout "down with corruption!" ?

did the 100 Baht you paid lately to a corrupt police officer hurt your budget that much? that should teach you a lesson driving around on a Honda Wave with a defective brakelight!

Naam, you know the old saying about arguing with the ignorant...

sometimes it's fun

[Naam]

For the record : someone who says he doesn't have time to think about corruption, doesn't care about corruption, but actively follows a 13 pages thread about corruption just to post idiotic comments is making a fool of himself.

I'd give you a shovel but you are digging your hole deeper and deeper without any help.

Yes, theft, embezzlement and fraud are not exactly the same as corruption. But what does a corrupt government official do? He commits, among other crimes and offenses, theft, fraud and embezzlement.

I feel like I'm trying to explain a basic idea to a small children. I hope this extremely difficult logic was not too hard to comprehend.

you are about crossing a line my [not so] learned naïve friend! why don't you get rid of your frustration by throwing gravel at passing little old Thai ladies and shout "down with corruption!" ?

did the 100 Baht you paid lately to a corrupt police officer hurt your budget that much? that should teach you a lesson driving around on a Honda Wave with a defective brakelight!

Another pathetic attempt at being witty. At least it seemed you understood my post and stopped trying miserably to redefine what is corruption. That's a good result.

Now for the rest of your post, I have no idea <deleted> you are babbling about. What frustration? Some forum members can be irritating but you just amuse me. Have I written anything about petty corruption? I think not. Are you already drunk at this time of the day? That would explain a lot but you should ask quickly for medical help.

good to hear that i am amusing you. it means i don't have to be grateful for your amusing me.

by the way... theft, embezzlement and fraud is not corruption. there... there... there's really no need to beat up your wife! you were thinking of it... weren't you?

and don't even think about kicking your dog! you hear me?

[SteeleJoe]

by the way... theft, embezzlement and fraud is not corruption.[\quote]

I wasn't going to get back into this thread despite so much I would be tempted to comment on (fallacies and distortions and illogical reasoning) but the above is just too much.

Rarely does one see something so dumb said by an otherwise intelligent person.

Edited July 10, 2013 by SteeleJoe

[iancnx]

OP as corrupt as the audio clip currently doing the rounds .... Should it prove to be genuine.

[StefanBBK]

I tend to think it is "normal", as it is the norm. It is done at the majority of places.

Question really is can it still be called "corruption", if it is widely accepted, expected and done?

Sent from my GT-I9100 using Thaivisa Connect Thailand mobile app

[transam]

I tend to think it is "normal", as it is the norm. It is done at the majority of places.

Question really is can it still be called "corruption", if it is widely accepted, expected and done?

Sent from my GT-I9100 using Thaivisa Connect Thailand mobile app

It is the norm but one cannot change the word corruption just because it is an endemic practice.

[SteeleJoe]

I tend to think it is "normal", as it is the norm. It is done at the majority of places.

Question really is can it still be called "corruption", if it is widely accepted, expected and done?

Sent from my GT-I9100 using Thaivisa Connect Thailand mobile app

It is the norm but one cannot change the word corruption just because it is an endemic practice.

Spot on. And it goes further than semantics: people who point out that it's the Thai way so that should somehow change the answer to the OP, or that that should be seen as mitigating, make no sense.

Having said that, as far as semantics and societal norms go - there's a reason why the Thai word for corruption is a loan word from English and it's obviously not unrelated to why corruption is so pervasive.

Edited July 10, 2013 by SteeleJoe

[kotsak]

From BBC News website Map: Which country pays the most bribes?

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-23231318