Is There Thai Laws Re Rental Contracts?

[Green]

I rent a condo, owner gave me a contract that is taken off the internet and states that it is legal in the state of Alaska. Ok. Well I signed that, and afterwards realized that there was nothing in it regarding the return of the deposit. I told the owner and he said after I left he would inspect the room then return my deposit minus any damage if there was any. I said fine, but lets put that in writing and email that to me.

He didn't do it. I emailed him later asking the same thing. No reply. Now a month later I sent another polite request but again no reply. He doesn't answer his phone.

Well the previous tenant who now stays across the hall told me the owner didn't return his deposit for 5 months, and that in fact he had already written it off. He said I might want to inform the owner 2 months before I expect to leave to come check the room because I wont be paying the last two months rent. But in that case the owner could have them turn of the electricity and water perhaps.

Anyways, what I would like to be prepared to do, is print out the email, an sms, which he never replied to, take the contract, and maybe a statement from the previous tenant, to a lawyer, and just file a law suit against the <deleted>.

Are there any laws for rental contracts? I have had very thorough contracts in the past, it would seem they followed some sort of 'legal' template for making a contract, otherwise what would be the point.

Advice please.

[Maestro]

As far as I know there is no separate law in Thailand for rental contracts and any dispute arising from such contract would thus fall under the Civil and Commercial Code.

[Green]

Thanks. Any advice on what to do then?

[PattayaPhom]

1st law. Read contracts properly and only sign when you are happy, 2nd law, rent through an agent, this gives you protection

[Crossy]

PattayaPhom, on 06 Mar 2013 - 07:09, said:

1st law. Read contracts properly and only sign when you are happy, 2nd law, rent through an agent, this gives you protection

1. YES!

2. We did, we had actually been in our condo for over 12 months when a somewhat confused owner turned up to check on her 'empty' condo. Turned out the agent had decided their commission was insufficient and was pocketing the lot. Luckily Wifey had retained all our rent (and deposit) receipts.

We went to paying the owner direct, I think she sued the agent but I've no idea if she got any cash out of them. In the end we stay in the condo for nearly 8 years, she was a great landlady and was sorry to see us move out.

Addressing our OP, you are where you are now, money is paid so don't stress about it (easy to say I know). How long is your lease and how much deposit did you pay?

Tardy / non return of deposits seems to be endemic here, if the deposit is more than one month I would tell the landlord when you give notice that you won't be paying the last month (or two) rent to recover most of the deposit (but do leave him 1 month to cover bills and damages).

[BlackPuddingBertha]

2. We did, we had actually been in our condo for over 12 months when a somewhat confused owner turned up to check on her 'empty' condo. Turned out the agent had decided their commission was insufficient and was pocketing the lot.

You certainly aren't the only people this has happened to here.

[Crossy]

2. We did, we had actually been in our condo for over 12 months when a somewhat confused owner turned up to check on her 'empty' condo. Turned out the agent had decided their commission was insufficient and was pocketing the lot.

You certainly aren't the only people this has happened to here.

Of this I think one can be certain. I think we were pretty lucky with the owner's attitude

[PattayaPhom]

2. We did, we had actually been in our condo for over 12 months when a somewhat confused owner turned up to check on her 'empty' condo. Turned out the agent had decided their commission was insufficient and was pocketing the lot.

You certainly aren't the only people this has happened to here.

And with the amount of agents that are setting up in cheap rented premises, thats why its imperative to use an established agent that comes recommended.

[NanLaew]

2. We did, we had actually been in our condo for over 12 months when a somewhat confused owner turned up to check on her 'empty' condo. Turned out the agent had decided their commission was insufficient and was pocketing the lot.

You certainly aren't the only people this has happened to here.

And with the amount of agents that are setting up in cheap rented premises, thats why its imperative to use an established agent that comes recommended.

You failed to quote the most important bit of Crossy's post...

We went to paying the owner direct, ...

If you have the opportunity to contact the owner direct and pay the rental directly to them, there is much more security. The agency cannot refuse to accept this arrangement if landlord and tenant agree to it.

Now, how exactly do you get to tell the good agencies from the bad?

[NanLaew]

Back OT; the OP is considering if it worth suing the landlord about the OP's oversight on the deposit refund policy? To sue the landlord while the tenancy is running over something that doesn't happen until after the lease has been terminated with mutual agreement?

Go ahead... and kiss any thoughts of getting your deposit back goodbye.

[NanLaew]

Regarding rental contracts. I rented in Pattaya from a foreign friend and we drafted a rental contract together that was based on a standard, English language rental contract and signed that. It clearly stipulated deposits, their use and timing of any disbursements. Painless.

I rented in Udon, using an agency to find the house. The Thai home owner attended the viewing and when we agreed to the lease, my wife suggested we just pay the landlord directly by direct debit, bank to bank. The girls from the agency that found the house and drafted the rental contract weren't ecstatic but it was all agreed. Painless.

On the annual renewal, the landlord contacted us directly and when informed we would be staying longer but wanted 6-month terms to which he agreed, advised the agency to draft a new contract for signing. The agency reprinted the old contract but omitted to correctly change ALL the dates or change the minumum leasing period from 12-months to 6-months as had been agreed with the landlord.

If you can draft your owm contract and avoid an agency, so much the better IMHO.

[davejones]

At the moment he hasn't done anything wrong, so what are you going to tell the lawyer. You only have a possible case if he doesn't return the deposit. As you haven't moved out yet, it's not an issue. Seems like you're jumping the gun.

[Delight]

If you are paying directly to the condo for water and power -then they cannot be turned off.

Even if you stopped paying them it takes 6 months before the lights go out .

So if you know when you are leaving -judge the time such that the rent outstanding and the deposit match.At this point stop paying the rent. if necessary you may consider depositing this unpaid rent with a trusted and neutral party.

Given that he has not replied to your requests-politely advise him of your strategy just before implementation.

Emphasize that your motive is fair do,s all round . You are nervous that he will not keep his end of the bargain.

[davejones]

If you are paying directly to the condo for water and power -then they cannot be turned off.

Even if you stopped paying them it takes 6 months before the lights go out .

So if you know when you are leaving -judge the time such that the rent outstanding and the deposit match.At this point stop paying the rent. if necessary you may consider depositing this unpaid rent with a trusted and neutral party.

Given that he has not replied to your requests-politely advise him of your strategy just before implementation.

Emphasize that your motive is fair do,s all round . You are nervous that he will not keep his end of the bargain.

If you stop paying the rent, you'll most likely be in breach of contract. If a tenant did that to me, I'd throw them out and keep their deposit. The deposit is there to cover any damage or unpaid bills at the end of the tenancy. It's not there so that you can skip the final few months rent. The landlord has told you he'll return your deposit at the end, so you have no reason to breach the contract by refusing to pay the rent.

You don't see many people trying to sue in advance, before any supposed breach has taken place. What's the lawyer going to do? Sue for breach of contract that hasn't taken place, but which he is sure will take place in the future. This is laughable.

Maybe others should learn from this, and make sure that any contract they sign is something that they agree to.

[Delight]

If you are paying directly to the condo for water and power -then they cannot be turned off.

Even if you stopped paying them it takes 6 months before the lights go out .

So if you know when you are leaving -judge the time such that the rent outstanding and the deposit match.At this point stop paying the rent. if necessary you may consider depositing this unpaid rent with a trusted and neutral party.

Given that he has not replied to your requests-politely advise him of your strategy just before implementation.

Emphasize that your motive is fair do,s all round . You are nervous that he will not keep his end of the bargain.

If you stop paying the rent, you'll most likely be in breach of contract. If a tenant did that to me, I'd throw them out and keep their deposit. The deposit is there to cover any damage or unpaid bills at the end of the tenancy. It's not there so that you can skip the final few months rent. The landlord has told you he'll return your deposit at the end, so you have no reason to breach the contract by refusing to pay the rent.

You don't see many people trying to sue in advance, before any supposed breach has taken place. What's the lawyer going to do? Sue for breach of contract that hasn't taken place, but which he is sure will take place in the future. This is laughable.

Maybe others should learn from this, and make sure that any contract they sign is something that they agree to.

Ok Daveyjones -but if your tenant had asked that the wording of the contract should be modified to reference the deposit money -would you comply or deny?

[davejones]

If you are paying directly to the condo for water and power -then they cannot be turned off.

Even if you stopped paying them it takes 6 months before the lights go out .

So if you know when you are leaving -judge the time such that the rent outstanding and the deposit match.At this point stop paying the rent. if necessary you may consider depositing this unpaid rent with a trusted and neutral party.

Given that he has not replied to your requests-politely advise him of your strategy just before implementation.

Emphasize that your motive is fair do,s all round . You are nervous that he will not keep his end of the bargain.

If you stop paying the rent, you'll most likely be in breach of contract. If a tenant did that to me, I'd throw them out and keep their deposit. The deposit is there to cover any damage or unpaid bills at the end of the tenancy. It's not there so that you can skip the final few months rent. The landlord has told you he'll return your deposit at the end, so you have no reason to breach the contract by refusing to pay the rent.

You don't see many people trying to sue in advance, before any supposed breach has taken place. What's the lawyer going to do? Sue for breach of contract that hasn't taken place, but which he is sure will take place in the future. This is laughable.

Maybe others should learn from this, and make sure that any contract they sign is something that they agree to.

Ok Daveyjones -but if your tenant had asked that the wording of the contract should be modified to reference the deposit money -would you comply or deny?

I would comply. And I think he's wrong not to amend the wording, as he agreed to. But he's still not in breach of contract, and therefore can't be sued. You just need to wait to see what happens. By not paying the rent, you would be in breach of contract. He could then legally evict you, and retain the deposit, as a breach may allow this.

It is a tricky situation, but I still think it's better to see what happens rather than commit a breach yourself. You seem to be saying that you think he won't return the deposit, so you'll get in first, and breach the contract. It's not a good way to do business. But neither is his way a good way. But where you are now, I think you need to continuing paying the rent. But your choice.

[Green]

Well if its the contract I must follow, then I would like to point out one detail which the owner must not of picked up when he lifted it off of the internet. Under the heading "APPLICABLE LAW" it states:

"The law that governs this agreement is the law of the state of Alaska. In the event the landlord finds it necessary to enforce the provisions of this agreement against the tenant, the landlord shall be entitled to reasonable attorney's fees and costs."

So does the rest of the contract hold true despite that it is stated that it is only valid within ALASKA?

There is another statement that says that any non compliance, including not paying rent, entitles the owner to give three days notice.

The only statement about the deposit is under "Damage Deposit: Tenant agrees to place with the landlord a damage deposit equal to two months rent which amounts to 21K."

So it is stated that I have paid him a 'damage deposit' which does imply that if there is no damage, then the "deposit" would be returned. However, there is nothing regarding when that will be returned.

I will try calling him in a few days on another number, I suspect he will pick up, then I will simply ask him "when" I can expect to have the deposit returned if there is no damage? If he says a week, then I will ask for it in writing, finished.

[davejones]

Well if its the contract I must follow, then I would like to point out one detail which the owner must not of picked up when he lifted it off of the internet. Under the heading "APPLICABLE LAW" it states:

"The law that governs this agreement is the law of the state of Alaska. In the event the landlord finds it necessary to enforce the provisions of this agreement against the tenant, the landlord shall be entitled to reasonable attorney's fees and costs."

So does the rest of the contract hold true despite that it is stated that it is only valid within ALASKA?

There is another statement that says that any non compliance, including not paying rent, entitles the owner to give three days notice.

The only statement about the deposit is under "Damage Deposit: Tenant agrees to place with the landlord a damage deposit equal to two months rent which amounts to 21K."

So it is stated that I have paid him a 'damage deposit' which does imply that if there is no damage, then the "deposit" would be returned. However, there is nothing regarding when that will be returned.

I will try calling him in a few days on another number, I suspect he will pick up, then I will simply ask him "when" I can expect to have the deposit returned if there is no damage? If he says a week, then I will ask for it in writing, finished.

Obviously this contract is not suitable, so it shouldn't have been used. But it was, so you have both agreed to it. It would make matters complicated if there was a dispute, but that's life.

I know we're used to proper contracts in the West, but things seem a little different here. I has a 6-month contract, but called the landlord to say I'd like to stay another 6 months. We didn't sign a new contract, so I'm living here without a contract. But I still pay the rent on time, and I trust him. Others won't agree, but I'm happy with the situation and don't foresee any problems.

[Green]

Yes, I have had a couple owners who say that 'we can sign a new contract after this one expires if you want to stay', but after a contract is up, isn't it only possible to rent month by month? Then you just give 1 month notice when you may leave.

[davejones]

Yes, I have had a couple owners who say that 'we can sign a new contract after this one expires if you want to stay', but after a contract is up, isn't it only possible to rent month by month? Then you just give 1 month notice when you may leave.

In our case, we knew we wanted to stay for 6 months, so the month to month issue didn't come up. But I think many/most landlords would find this acceptable. I have done this with some of my UK tenants, as it works for both of us. They seem to end up staying longer that way, as they don't get around to think of moving so often.

[Green]

Does anyone have experience with the procedure I might have to go through if filing a law suit? I just want to be prepared, it may be the only leverage I have if he really is going to be an <deleted> and not pick up the phone, and just think to himself that there is nothing I can do about it if he wants to keep my deposit.

I will first try to call him on another number. Then I will inform the office of the condo, but I dont know if they would be able to intervene. I suspect not. When I do leave, and the contract is finished, I could leave a cap on the door knob and the keys to the room until he agrees to meet me to inspect the room together. Or I could have someone, or several, witnesses come and inspect the room and sign that everything is in good condition, in the event that he tries to lie and say there is damage. Witnesses could testify against him if it was to come to a law suit. But I do trust my instinct on this, and I would say that he definitely intends to try and keep my deposit. I just want to be prepared, and not wait to find out what I already know, then discover that filing a law suit is just not practical by any means.

Edited March 7, 2013 by Green

[Maestro]

Yes, I have had a couple owners who say that 'we can sign a new contract after this one expires if you want to stay', but after a contract is up, isn't it only possible to rent month by month? Then you just give 1 month notice when you may leave.

Of course it is possible, if that is what the you contract you make with your landlord will say.

[Green]

Called the owner this morning (on a different number), politely asked when I can expect to have the deposit returned after the contract is finished, he said 1 month, after check everything. The strategy seems to have worked, asked him to send that to my email, no problem. In fact catching him off guard like that I could sense he was aware that he had been consciously ignoring this. Hopefully this is finished.

Thanks for the feed back received here. Regards.

[SparklingCascades]

Am always surprised by the number of farang who wish to rent direct from home-owners and then moan when things turn sour. My family own a few office spaces & condo's in Bkok, Phuket, Phnom Penh.....and leasing is done through "proper" real estate agents. Saves everyone lots of grief in case we get the wrong sort of tenants, have rental delays or find damage etc....It works well for both sides. Cannot understand why farang take on lots of uncertainty (and possible grief) which comes with dealing direct with any landlord - in trying to save a nickel or dime. More often than not smiles quickly vanish once the landlord gets his deposit and things are no longer sabai-sabai. I think we can expect to hear lots more such stories as farang rarely learn fast.

[Green]

Well I happen to have had bad experiences with agents in the past, I prefer not to deal with them and pay anywhere from 1-4K less in rent. The place that I rent now was first shown to me by an agent who would not budge on the rent even though I really wanted it. 2 months later the owner was advertising himself because no one would rent it, and the price was reduced by 3500. B.

[NanLaew]

SparklingCascades, on 08 Mar 2013 - 06:35, said:

Am always surprised by the number of farang who wish to rent direct from home-owners and then moan when things turn sour. My family own a few office spaces & condo's in Bkok, Phuket, Phnom Penh.....and leasing is done through "proper" real estate agents. Saves everyone lots of grief in case we get the wrong sort of tenants, have rental delays or find damage etc....It works well for both sides. Cannot understand why farang take on lots of uncertainty (and possible grief) which comes with dealing direct with any landlord - in trying to save a nickel or dime. More often than not smiles quickly vanish once the landlord gets his deposit and things are no longer sabai-sabai. I think we can expect to hear lots more such stories as farang rarely learn fast.

Because it may be hard to suss out what constitutes a "proper" agency and be sure that they are working for your best interests. When I first lived in Thailand, there were hardly any agencies and expats rented direct from mostly Thai owners. I cannot recall any grief, ever. Since the condo boom, agencies have proliferated and not all of them have a clue or are honest. Now that the expat housing options have diversified into regular housing as well as condo's, it is a bit of a minefield out there. Does a glitzy, multi-lingual real estate website with google maps make the agency any more reliable and honest than the one with the simple search engine and tiny pictures of mainly the communal swimming pool?!

I would reckon that there are more horror stories in Thailand with agency/owner relationships than with landlord/tenant relationships.

Back OT; the OP seems to have some sort of peace of mind regading the deposit issue and hope he gets the email confirmation. However, the fact that the rental contract references Alaska and he still signed it should be a warning (as if it is needed) for all to read* any English-language contracts before you sign them.

* Except for AirAsia's contracts of carriage. You read that lot and you will miss your flight. And tomorrow's as well!

Edited March 9, 2013 by NanLaew

[Thereisnoif]

There is no rule of law in this country . Period .