New Pope "reminiscent Of Medieval Times And The Inquisition" Says Kirchner

[Jingthing]

Just in case anyone was hopeful the new Pope was going to be more modern on gay rights issues, think again.

Pope Francis of Buenos Aires about Argentina's legalization of gay marriage:

In a letter to the monasteries of Buenos Aires, he wrote: "Let's not be

naive, we're not talking about a simple political battle; it is a
destructive pretension against the plan of God. We are not talking about
a mere bill, but rather a machination of the Father of Lies that seeks
to confuse and deceive the children of God." He has also insisted that adoption by gay and lesbian people is a form of discrimination against children. This position received a rebuke from Argentine president Cristina Fernández de Kirchner, who said the church's tone was reminiscent of "medieval times and the Inquisition"

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jorge_Bergoglio

Father of lies? Does he mean SATAN? Ov vey.

If Pope Francis ever visits San FRANCISCO, the protests are going to be interesting.

[endure]

A baiting post and reply have been removed. This is the gay forum. That means it's for gay people - not for other posters to bait gay people. If you don't like gays that's fine - just stay out of here.

[Dancealot]

He seems quite fanatical and old fashioned @first sight according to Wiki

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jorge_Bergoglio

[Jingthing]

There are clearly some very good things about this man. His humbleness, the "man who rides the bus" certainly something I can personally relate to, his social justice emphasis on defending the poor, he has kissed the feet of Aids sufferers. However, his stance towards gay marriage laws show a typical historical Catholic church pattern of attempting and often succeeding in theocratic control over secular governments. It's a losing cause for the Catholic church in Argentina under Kirchnerismo but it shows where his agenda is, now as the Pope of the global church. To clarify, I think religions have every right to whatever morality definitions they have within their religions. I do wonder how much this pick is really about the conflict of the Catholic church morality vs. secular governments in Latin America, given the massive importance of Latin America to the Catholic demographic. Latin America also bleeds into the USA with its fast growing Latino-Catholic population.

Edited March 14, 2013 by Jingthing

[isanbirder]

Damned if he does and damned if he doesn't? I don't think we can judge him on what Wiki says (or Kirchner even less). The man has been pope for less than 24 hours; give him a chance! And don't forget that there have been several days of general congregations before the conclave, in which numerous problems including, I have no doubt, homosexuality in the Church, have been discussed at length, and he will want to consider what was said during that time.

Any judgment made now is premature and necessarily very shallow.

[Guest]

One of his first acts could be to strip the Vatican of some of its riches and use the proceeds to feed the starving... in line with the teachings of christianity.

[uptheos]

It's going to be interesting to see how the relationship between the pope and Christina Fernandez develops. I believe he has crossed swords with her during his time as a cardinal, but he's now gone to the very top of the hierarchial ladder and is God's spokesperson for the world's Catholics. It is nice to have a pope that appears humble, but my goodness they are so rigid or silent on many other things, which are much bigger and cause misery to millions of people....both gay and heterosexual.

[ragamuffin]

They're simply Catholic.

Edited March 14, 2013 by ragamuffin

[Jingthing]

Damned if he does and damned if he doesn't? I don't think we can judge him on what Wiki says (or Kirchner even less). The man has been pope for less than 24 hours; give him a chance! And don't forget that there have been several days of general congregations before the conclave, in which numerous problems including, I have no doubt, homosexuality in the Church, have been discussed at length, and he will want to consider what was said during that time.

Any judgment made now is premature and necessarily very shallow.

The specific issue I brought up was gay marriage under the laws of SECULAR governments. That is a very different topic than treatment of gay Catholics and gay priests. Judgement on his dogma on the gay marriage issue is in no way imaginable premature. Surely you don't think this man is going to become tolerant of legalizing secular gay marriages? On what basis would you expect such a miracle?

Perhaps because of your personal connection, you failed to get the clear distinction I made. What he does WITHIN the church is the business of the church. What he does to try to influence greater societies and their laws is now not only the business of Argentina but the business of much of the world.

Kirchner is a hero of the gay civil rights movement in Argentina. Some of us do give value to what she says. I certainly value her opinion more than someone carrying such a regressive, repressive "morality" message. Trying to keep gay people down because of influence of the Devil certainly sounds like medieval thinking to me.

Edited March 14, 2013 by Jingthing

[Jingthing]

One of his first acts could be to strip the Vatican of some of its riches and use the proceeds to feed the starving... in line with the teachings of christianity.

Funny. No reformer could be that radical in that institution.

[Jingthing]

It's going to be interesting to see how the relationship between the pope and Christina Fernandez develops.

...

I agree. It puts her in a bit of an awkward position. The conflict up till now has been quite hot.

[uptheos]

One of his first acts could be to strip the Vatican of some of its riches and use the proceeds to feed the starving... in line with the teachings of christianity.

Funny. No reformer could be that radical in that institution.

Indeed, you can find the smallest Catholic church in the poorest remote places and when you open the door the shining gold everywhere almost blinds you. It seems that the poor will give what they have in hope of having a better life hereafter. It doesn't happen in these places so it certainly won't happen in the Vatican.

[Jingthing]

Some more detail about this:

In 2010, he rallied against a measure that made Argentina the first
Latin American country to legalize same-sex marriage. He also argued
that a decision by the government to allow same-sex couples to adopt
would deprive children of “the human growth that God wanted them to have
by a father and a mother.”

His vociferous protests led President
Cristina Fernandez de Kirchner to criticize him sharply, saying, “It’s
worrisome to hear phrases such as ‘war of God’ and ‘projects of the
devil,’ which are things that send us back to medieval times and the
Inquisition.”

http://www.washingtonpost.com/world/jorge-mario-bergoglio-the-first-jesuit-pope-known-for-pastoral-work/2013/03/13/8a47e324-8c0b-11e2-9f54-f3fdd70acad2_story_1.html

Also note in the link the allegation that the new Pope was culpable in removing church protection from some leftist priests during the dark times of Argentinian dictatorship.

[isanbirder]

One of his first acts could be to strip the Vatican of some of its riches and use the proceeds to feed the starving... in line with the teachings of christianity.

Funny. No reformer could be that radical in that institution.

Indeed, you can find the smallest Catholic church in the poorest remote places and when you open the door the shining gold everywhere almost blinds you. It seems that the poor will give what they have in hope of having a better life hereafter. It doesn't happen in these places so it certainly won't happen in the Vatican.

It sounds like you've been looking at Buddhist temples, Uptheos.

The immense wealth of the Vatican is largely in artefacts, paintings, MSS, and such things as jewelled reliquaries. The market for Raphael Madonnas, for instance, is very limited; it's not that many museums wouldn't want them, but that they couldn't pay the market price. Market price itself is a delusion; if the market is flooded, the price drops like a stone. Such things as jewelled reliquaries are art treasures in themselves, and the same applies; they could be broken down for the gold.... but would anyone wish to treat art treasures in that way?

I sympathise with those who say the wealth could be put to better use; yes, in a way it could, if it could be realised. The actual cash wealth of the Church is small in relation to its size and (though I wouldn't put this forward as an argument against married priests) would be very severely strained if the Church had to pay salaries adequate for a married couple plus a family.

Edited March 14, 2013 by isanbirder

[uptheos]

One of his first acts could be to strip the Vatican of some of its riches and use the proceeds to feed the starving... in line with the teachings of christianity.

Funny. No reformer could be that radical in that institution.

Indeed, you can find the smallest Catholic church in the poorest remote places and when you open the door the shining gold everywhere almost blinds you. It seems that the poor will give what they have in hope of having a better life hereafter. It doesn't happen in these places so it certainly won't happen in the Vatican.

It sounds like you've been looking at Buddhist temples, Uptheos.

Yeah right, I repeat for your benefit, "you can find the smallest Catholic church in the poorest remote places and when you open the door the shining gold everywhere almost blinds you".

You've obviously never travelled Central and South America, so it's OK.

Edited March 14, 2013 by uptheos

[Jingthing]

Congratulations to the Jesuits. That's something different.

Edited March 14, 2013 by Jingthing

[isanbirder]

Some more detail about this:

In 2010, he rallied against a measure that made Argentina the first

Latin American country to legalize same-sex marriage. He also argued

that a decision by the government to allow same-sex couples to adopt

would deprive children of “the human growth that God wanted them to have

by a father and a mother.”

His vociferous protests led President

Cristina Fernandez de Kirchner to criticize him sharply, saying, “It’s

worrisome to hear phrases such as ‘war of God’ and ‘projects of the

devil,’ which are things that send us back to medieval times and the

Inquisition.”

http://www.washingtonpost.com/world/jorge-mario-bergoglio-the-first-jesuit-pope-known-for-pastoral-work/2013/03/13/8a47e324-8c0b-11e2-9f54-f3fdd70acad2_story_1.html

Also note in the link the allegation that the new Pope was culpable in removing church protection from some leftist priests during the dark times of Argentinian dictatorship.

It is only an allegation, JT, and should be treated as such.

[isanbirder]

Uptheos, I've tried sarcasm before in ThaiVisa, and it rarely works! I merely meant to point out that it is common for many religions to adorn their temples to the best of their ability.

I would also like to point out that "All that glisters is not gold."

[Jingthing]

Sure, and for those who feel the emotional need to give any Pope the benefit of any doubt, I'm sure such allegations can be easily ignored.

[LeCharivari]

For Catholicism and Catholics generally, an excellent choice and a real step forward. For gays or anyone wanting progress on contraception and safe sex (as distinct from no sex), a massive leap backwards.

[Jingthing]

For Catholicism and Catholics generally, an excellent choice and a real step forward. For gays or anyone wanting progress on contraception and safe sex (as distinct from no sex), a massive leap backwards.

Sort of. What about more progressive Catholics on social issues? Not such a perfect pope for them.

[LeCharivari]

For Catholicism and Catholics generally, an excellent choice and a real step forward. For gays or anyone wanting progress on contraception and safe sex (as distinct from no sex), a massive leap backwards.

Sort of. What about more progressive Catholics on social issues? Not such a perfect pope for them.

Agreed, but the Pope isn't there to represent Catholics or anyone's views or to be a "perfect pope" for anyone. He's there to represent God and his views, as he believes them to be and Jesuits aren't known for being progressive.

[rgs2001uk]

One of his first acts could be to strip the Vatican of some of its riches and use the proceeds to feed the starving... in line with the teachings of christianity.

Funny. No reformer could be that radical in that institution.

Indeed, you can find the smallest Catholic church in the poorest remote places and when you open the door the shining gold everywhere almost blinds you. It seems that the poor will give what they have in hope of having a better life hereafter. It doesn't happen in these places so it certainly won't happen in the Vatican.

It sounds like you've been looking at Buddhist temples, Uptheos.

The immense wealth of the Vatican is largely in artefacts, paintings, MSS, and such things as jewelled reliquaries. The market for Raphael Madonnas, for instance, is very limited; it's not that many museums wouldn't want them, but that they couldn't pay the market price. Market price itself is a delusion; if the market is flooded, the price drops like a stone. Such things as jewelled reliquaries are art treasures in themselves, and the same applies; they could be broken down for the gold.... but would anyone wish to treat art treasures in that way?

I sympathise with those who say the wealth could be put to better use; yes, in a way it could, if it could be realised. The actual cash wealth of the Church is small in relation to its size and (though I wouldn't put this forward as an argument against married priests) would be very severely strained if the Church had to pay salaries adequate for a married couple plus a family.

It sounds like you've been looking at Buddhist temples,

Not so far from the truth.

A read of Graham Greenes The Power And The Glory, sums it up.

[lannarebirth]

For Catholicism and Catholics generally, an excellent choice and a real step forward. For gays or anyone wanting progress on contraception and safe sex (as distinct from no sex), a massive leap backwards.

Sort of. What about more progressive Catholics on social issues? Not such a perfect pope for them.

Agreed, but the Pope isn't there to represent Catholics or anyone's views or to be a "perfect pope" for anyone. He's there to represent God and his views, as he believes them to be and Jesuits aren't known for being progressive.

Perhaps Jesuits aren't known by some to be progressive, but within the Catholic church they certainly are. A central tenet of a Jesuit education is to be open to changing one's view. Still, there won't be much "progressive" coming forth on gay issues. They'll be at the back of a long line of things that will need addressing first.

My expectations of this Pope are that he will focus on organizational matters that have historically prevented or blocked communication and oversight within the church. I think he will also, by example, increase the church's outreach to the world's most impoverished and vulnerable peoples. Hopefully he'll treat nuns better.

If you understnad the church, even a little bit , you'll know it and this Pope have made extraordinary moves already in these past few days

[Jingthing]

...

Still, there won't be much "progressive" coming forth on gay issues. They'll be at the back of a long line of things that will need addressing first.

...

This being the gay forum, I started this thread to focus on the new Pope's record on gay civil rights issues. His record is HORRIBLE. He is clearly an activist ENEMY of civil gay rights. I find this pick in that sense bad for gay people in the world. Especially in Africa where some countries are looking for Christian religious justification to severely oppress gay people, even to the point of murder. You can gloss over this issue, but this Pope has not glossed over it. His position is crystal clear.

“Today the media are building this image of him as the humble pope,”

said Andrea D’Atri, founder of Bread and Roses, a human rights group,

who is critical of Bertoglio’s opposition to gay rights. “In Argentina,

his naming as pope has been received with the warmest enthusiasm by the

rightist opposition.”

http://www.washingtonpost.com/world/the_americas/bergoglio-challenged-moral-authority-of-argentinas-elected-leaders/2013/03/14/95db94f6-8ce7-11e2-b63f-f53fb9f2fcb4_story.html

Also this man's political record in Argentina dealing with governments is not inspiring. He did NOT fight the right wing mass murdering fascists but he has been outspoken in fighting PROGRESSIVE leftists. He is "for the poor" but strongly opposed to liberation theology. Basically, if you try to paint this new pope as progressive, you've got a funny definition of progressive. He is DEEPLY conservative and Argentinians know that better than anyone.

Edited March 15, 2013 by Jingthing

[LeCharivari]

For Catholicism and Catholics generally, an excellent choice and a real step forward. For gays or anyone wanting progress on contraception and safe sex (as distinct from no sex), a massive leap backwards.

Sort of. What about more progressive Catholics on social issues? Not such a perfect pope for them.

Agreed, but the Pope isn't there to represent Catholics or anyone's views or to be a "perfect pope" for anyone. He's there to represent God and his views, as he believes them to be and Jesuits aren't known for being progressive.

Perhaps Jesuits aren't known by some to be progressive, but within the Catholic church they certainly are. A central tenet of a Jesuit education is to be open to changing one's view. Still, there won't be much "progressive" coming forth on gay issues. They'll be at the back of a long line of things that will need addressing first.

My expectations of this Pope are that he will focus on organizational matters that have historically prevented or blocked communication and oversight within the church. I think he will also, by example, increase the church's outreach to the world's most impoverished and vulnerable peoples. Hopefully he'll treat nuns better.

If you understnad the church, even a little bit , you'll know it and this Pope have made extraordinary moves already in these past few days

Progressive in terms of social justice and some aspects of liberation theology (opposing unjust social and economic conditions as being contrary to Christ's views)? Certainly, without any doubt.

Progressive in terms of gay rights (and remember this is the Gay Forum, so posts on his election here are in that context) and connected issues? Definitely not. Not a chance. Its not a question of his being a Jesuit as his views are orthodox to the point of being reactionary for a Jesuit and he has actively opposed many of the more progressive Jesuit views on birth control, abortion, divorce and gay rights.

Its not that these issues are "at the back of a long line of things that will need addressing first", either. He has already addressed these issues and made his views very clear, from gay marriage and same-sex adoption to abortion, contraception and euthanasia and many Jesuits who are progressive on these issues strongly disagree with his views.

Having been raised as a Jesuit myself, I flatter myself that I do "understand the church, even a little bit" - that is why I think Pope Francis will be good for Catholicism generally, will be respected and will make the Catholic church more respected .... but "progressive" - not a chance.

[isanbirder]

I agree on the whole, LeC. The only question (and it's a pretty remote one at this stage) is what he decides to do in terms of a general or regional councils, which may involve a certain amount of delegation of powers. Even then, he would always have the final say.

[geriatrickid]

Nice to see that some of you boys have got some of that "ole time religion". I still think that some of you are on a one way trip to Hades because of your fashion sense, but I digress.

Ok, but seriously, thinking of epiphanies and all that enlightenment good stuff, I'm more impressed by what GOP Senator Portman did with his reversal on of his opposition to gay marriage. His son is gay and told his parents 2 years ago. After much reflection, he changed his position.

He stated, “Ultimately, for me, it came down to the Bible’s overarching themes of love and compassion and my belief that we are all children of God” . This is quite a contrast to the statements the new Pope made when he was leading the fight against same sex civil unions in Argentina.

I find it a lot easier to consider the views of someone like Portman, who by all accounts is a decent family man and who has stood by his son, then some old guy that doesn't know anything about raising a family or the love a father can have for his son or spouse. The RC has a right to its religious doctrine, and they certainly are not forcing anyone to accept their faith. People can leave the church if they disagree. In any case, I do not even understand why any sane gay man would want to belong to some of these religious groups with their hostile positions on sexual orientation. There are plenty of religious groups to choose from that do not discriminate.

[Morakot]

http://www.allvoices.com/cartoons/c/96820392-pope-francis

[Jingthing]

...

I do not even understand why any sane gay man would want to belong to some of these religious groups with their hostile positions on sexual orientation.

...

Exactly.

As far as the choice of being in the Catholic church or not, yes, that is in modern times a choice, but historically, not always a choice. Google: Inquisition.

The reason the Catholic doctrine matters to non-Catholics is that many countries LEGAL SYSTEMS for ALL CITIZENS are still strongly influenced by Catholic doctrine. This Pope's specifically anti-gay activism in Argentina was directed at the legal system for his entire nation, not only internal Catholic church policies.

BTW, for those who are practicing Catholics, THIS Pope's intention is to control your actions and speech on social issues:

http://www.slate.com/blogs/xx_factor/2013/03/15/the_pope_said_what_francis_worst_hits_on_abortion_gay_marriage_and_gay_adoption.html

“The text [of a joint statement of the bishops of Latin America] states in paragraph 436 that ‘we should commit ourselves to eucharistic coherence,

that is, we should be conscious that people cannot receive holy

communion and at the same time act or speak against the commandments, in

particular when abortion, euthanasia, and other serious crimes against

life and family are facilitated. This responsibility applies

particularly to legislators, governors, and health professionals.’”

Edited March 16, 2013 by Jingthing