Lpg, Can They 'fiddle' The Pumps?

[pattayadingo]

LPG gas stations, with the counter set to 0's and you fill up with, say, 300 Baht of gas, can they set the pumps to give less than it states on the pump itself?

My reason for asking is that recently I've had occasion to visit one LPG station on a weekly basis because of a - now known - minor gas leak due to a loose valve.

Three times I put in 300 Baht and I got 1 red light and 1 yellow light on the console. I drove home, left the car and used it a week later in each case before going to BigC to do the weekly shop.

Yet, at the garage where they found and repaired the leak, I put in 300 Baht of LPG and have 1 red, 2 yellow and 1 green light. Obviously a reasonable amount more.

In each case the tank guage read near enough the same ( I was checking this because I suspected a problem ) before any gas was pumped in. That is why i ask the question if they can fiddle the amount of gas that comes from the pump, so it does not give the amount stated - in money terms, giving, say 200 Baht and not 300 Baht as stated (remembering the pump on the forecourt was set to all 0's before filling began.

[aussiebebe]

I don't use LPG but you really think you were getting scammed because 300baht takes you to one green light now the leak has been fixed? Your leak and not the LPG pump seems like a more reasonable explanation for 300baht taking you to only one yellow light previously.

[VocalNeal]

Well firstly you don't say where your starting point is and secondly the amount indicated by the lights is not linear.

They can change the amount per litre but doubt they can change the volume but TIT and anything is possible. That being said i have never experienced anything untoward at the pump.

[roadrunner300]

I m still curious where was this leakage in the LPG system.

I don t know how they do it exactly maybe start on 50 baht and starting filling up you tank with this amount

on the meter already.

1 LPG station here has a bad name this one we don t use my dad in law said this before.

What I always do myself is count the liters after its filled up if this is higher then what fits in the tank they are not honest.

[WarpSpeed]

Yes and ALWAYS check the gauge on the tank in the trunk before and after filling, it's more accurate, as it is based on actual liters in the tank and it's mechanical not digital so it should correspond with the reading on the pump give or take a few liters possibly at the most, the 2 gauges work together in a sense and act as your back up for checks and balances. The gauge in the car is more sensitive to shifting fluid, though it is quite accurate as a general rule sitting still on level ground but cross checking it with the trunk tank is recommended.

I'm curious too about the valve leak, was it around the valve or the valve itself? If it was around the valve it may be an indication of the threads beginning to break down and about time to consider a tank replacement as if it wasn't bashed or something to cause it to leak (even still unless it was accidentally rotated at some point) then it is unlikely it would loosen just from normal usage and I wouldn't take a chance personally.

It occurs to me after another read that I covered several issues you addressed already, but one you didn't is the price of the gas..Do you know where they filled it from? Is the gas price EXACTLY the same? Maybe they get a discount due to more business or know where to fill for a few baht per liter cheaper which when added in volume may be just enough to light up another light on the gauge. And as others have said it's rather difficult to gauge it exactly as the light could be on the cusp of lighting in your previous fills and just another liter or 2 may have put it over..Just another thought...

Edited March 14, 2013 by WarpSpeed

[pattayadingo]

Fair enough.

The gas prices are the same and it does seem more gas has gone in and not only a couple of litres. I was thinking this might be a pump calibration problem, deliberate or otherwise and not only against me but to all the customers at this particular garage.

If memory serves me right there was talk of this garage being closed down at one point because they were using gas that was supposed to be for domestic purposes and not for vehicles. The simple solution is to avoid the garage in question, but I was curious about the ability to fiddle or recalibrate the pumps.

I have seen it before where a filling station would have the pump set to 100 Baht before filling up, but I now always look for that and it was not that in these instances.

Regards this valve, it is situated beneath the car at the rear under a plastic cover, near to where they fill the tank. I did not get to see the valve itself but that is what was explained to me. The sniffer was definitely reading a gas leak before and none after. THE LED lights and beeping were obvious when the sniffer was used in that area. There was also no indication from the sniffer before I put gas into the tank so I'm presuming the lack of any pressure was the reason for that.

Since then, no leak and no smell of gas. The tank gauge has stayed at the same level whereas before it would have gone down.

Maybe this 'valve' has suffered from some vibration. If it had been knocked I'd expect the plastic cover to have been damaged.

I'll keep a wary eye open on the gas levels while the car is left standing in case it is a situation where the threads are worn at all.

[VocalNeal]

Yes and ALWAYS check the gauge on the tank in the trunk before and after filling, it's more accurate, as it is based on actual liters in the tank and it's mechanical not digital so it should correspond with the reading on the pump give or take a few litres possibly at the most,

There is a gauge on the tank in the trunk that is calibrated in litres? How is this possible? That would mean that the manufacturer of said gauge would have to calibrate it for each model of tank from a number of tank manufacturers instead of simply manufacturing a standard level gauge. My tank is underneath the vehicle so even if there was a mechanical gauge, I climb under the vehicle to check? Much like the fuel guage for the petrol/gas tank the red, yellow and green light jobbies measure level not volume and are designed as a guide. It is up to the owner to learn what they mean. Ie. when last yellow light goes out and only the red is on , how many kms does the tank have left. In my case 80 kms. so i start planning my next fill up.

First thing is to get out of the vehicle and watch what the guy/gal does. This will alert them to the fact that you are paying attention to the process. having assured that the pump was at zero before the fueling process it is a simple matter to roughly check the volume against the price/litre. This most of us can do without a calculator.

[WarpSpeed]

OP the valve underneath the car should always be shut off by closing the valve in the trunk (boot lid) on top of the tank after filling, not only will this prevent any future problems such as this but for safety sake in case of a rear impact that causes the fill line to be separated from the tank in any way there will not be any uncontrolled leaking or subsequent explosion.

Neal, in a boot installation the tank and gauge in a professional installation should be calibrated together as a unit, if you look closely they generally measure in liters (never mind that one if you have an under car tank it seems maybe it doesn't apply)...The tanks are supposed to be standardized so not that difficult to do as it then only takes a few different gauges to cover all sizes across manufacturers.

The light only digital gauges are very unreliable for a number of reasons unfortunately so I never relied on them. I had one that would show full for about half an hour of run time when ever you started the car and then slowly taper off until it displayed nothing but the tank still had plenty of gas confirmed by the mechanical gauge in the trunk so I never had reason to panic and updated every time I started again even if briefly. It should be possible even with your tank to have one of those gauges installed but TiT maybe not?

I hope that helps..

Edited March 15, 2013 by WarpSpeed

[roadrunner300]

The meter on the tank Is not in liters its a meter who shows the percentage based on the pressure .

But easy to count your liters as long as you know the total what fits in there

The meter with the leds in the car works with a level on a small steal arm wich floats .

Because lpg is far more less exact with being gas and liqued then petrol this reading always is very

slow and unreliable.

[pattayadingo]

OP the valve underneath the car should always be shut off by closing the valve in the trunk (boot lid) on top of the tank after filling, not only will this prevent any future problems such as this but for safety sake in case of a rear impact that causes the fill line to be separated from the tank in any way there will not be any uncontrolled leaking or subsequent explosion.

Neal, in a boot installation the tank and gauge in a professional installation should be calibrated together as a unit, if you look closely they generally measure in liters (never mind that one if you have an under car tank it seems maybe it doesn't apply)...The tanks are supposed to be standardized so not that difficult to do as it then only takes a few different gauges to cover all sizes across manufacturers.

The light only digital gauges are very unreliable for a number of reasons unfortunately so I never relied on them. I had one that would show full for about half an hour of run time when ever you started the car and then slowly taper off until it displayed nothing but the tank still had plenty of gas confirmed by the mechanical gauge in the trunk so I never had reason to panic and updated every time I started again even if briefly. It should be possible even with your tank to have one of those gauges installed but TiT maybe not?

I hope that helps..

That inlet valve on the tank is always shut off after every top up.

The leak itself has definitely been resolved and for 300 Baht it was a cheap resolution considering the time they spent looking over the car, twice

I'll simply avoid the garage in future where I have a seeming discrepancy over the amount of gas they put in.

[arthurwait]

If it's the same as petrol as in a meter against flow, yes they can. That is until the random government inspection which happens with petrol, I can't see LPG being any different.

The allowance on a litre makes no difference on a sale but over the year. It was 'mai bpen rai' from the missus until I calculated that it averaged about 200k per year they were giving away to the customers. Still 'mai bpen rai' from the wife until MIL heard.

[arthurwait]

Oh running a petrol or LPG station isn't that profitable if you have to pay rent or buy the land, it is if you owned the land from when it was worth very little. Using the land for generating more money is were the money is easily made up.

As you may have guessed LPG would be making the least. Stick with petrol and diesel and go to the oldest station there is, it's much less likely they'll need to rip you off.

[VocalNeal]

If it's the same as petrol as in a meter against flow, yes they can.

It's a positive displacement meter so they cannot change the volume. They could change the price but then a check of volume against price would soon identify that.

[pattayadingo]

Yes and ALWAYS check the gauge on the tank in the trunk before and after filling, it's more accurate, as it is based on actual liters in the tank and it's mechanical not digital so it should correspond with the reading on the pump give or take a few litres possibly at the most,

There is a gauge on the tank in the trunk that is calibrated in litres? How is this possible? That would mean that the manufacturer of said gauge would have to calibrate it for each model of tank from a number of tank manufacturers instead of simply manufacturing a standard level gauge. My tank is underneath the vehicle so even if there was a mechanical gauge, I climb under the vehicle to check? Much like the fuel guage for the petrol/gas tank the red, yellow and green light jobbies measure level not volume and are designed as a guide. It is up to the owner to learn what they mean. Ie. when last yellow light goes out and only the red is on , how many kms does the tank have left. In my case 80 kms. so i start planning my next fill up.

First thing is to get out of the vehicle and watch what the guy/gal does. This will alert them to the fact that you are paying attention to the process. having assured that the pump was at zero before the fueling process it is a simple matter to roughly check the volume against the price/litre. This most of us can do without a calculator.

I'm always out of the car when I get a top-up. I need to be to open the inlet valve on the tank itself as this is situated in the boot that is always locked. That is when I check the gauge itself and also that the pump is set to 0's before filling starts.

Using both the tank gauge and the LED display give a reasonable guide to the amount of gas. Granted the LED display is not always accurate but to be 2.5 lights out on 300 Baht of fuel top up does seem a lot. Add to that the tank guage read a little over 50% on this last top-up and that is substantially more than the little over 25% from the other place i've used several times recently.

The guage showed a loss of 25% from a little over 1/4 full down to near empty in 7 days of the car being stood and not driven, hence me searching for a leak.

The last top up at the garage that repaired the leak the tank guage went from near empty to a little over half full. In retrospect that seems about right because 600 Baht is approximately the max I recall filling the tank with from empty.

I've been out and looked at the tank in the boot but it does not state size in Litres.

I realise I cannot be very accurate in my assessment of the amount of fuel from the first gas station, but there does seem a reasonable discrepancy over 3 top-ups. That is why i'm curious about the LPG pump calibration at this particualr garage I've been using and my question about the possibility of fiddling the pump.

There could be a lot of people being fiddled out of a couple of hundred Baht per tank full if there is a problem with the calibration of the pump(s). That is a lot of potential extra profit for the garage.

[pattayadingo]

If it's the same as petrol as in a meter against flow, yes they can.

It's a positive displacement meter so they cannot change the volume. They could change the price but then a check of volume against price would soon identify that.

Now, that sounds a distinct possibility.

[VocalNeal]

Neal, in a boot installation the tank and gauge in a professional installation should be calibrated together as a unit, if you look closely they generally measure in liters (never mind that one if you have an under car tank it seems maybe it doesn't apply)...The tanks are supposed to be standardized so not that difficult to do as it then only takes a few different gauges to cover all sizes across manufacturers.

In the absence of a picture to the contrary I am still convinced that the tank gauge displays in percent of volume, not specific litres. Confirmed by an LPG installer. Edited March 15, 2013 by VocalNeal

[WarpSpeed]

OP the valve underneath the car should always be shut off by closing the valve in the trunk (boot lid) on top of the tank after filling, not only will this prevent any future problems such as this but for safety sake in case of a rear impact that causes the fill line to be separated from the tank in any way there will not be any uncontrolled leaking or subsequent explosion.

Neal, in a boot installation the tank and gauge in a professional installation should be calibrated together as a unit, if you look closely they generally measure in liters (never mind that one if you have an under car tank it seems maybe it doesn't apply)...The tanks are supposed to be standardized so not that difficult to do as it then only takes a few different gauges to cover all sizes across manufacturers.

The light only digital gauges are very unreliable for a number of reasons unfortunately so I never relied on them. I had one that would show full for about half an hour of run time when ever you started the car and then slowly taper off until it displayed nothing but the tank still had plenty of gas confirmed by the mechanical gauge in the trunk so I never had reason to panic and updated every time I started again even if briefly. It should be possible even with your tank to have one of those gauges installed but TiT maybe not?

I hope that helps..

That inlet valve on the tank is always shut off after every top up.

The leak itself has definitely been resolved and for 300 Baht it was a cheap resolution considering the time they spent looking over the car, twice

I'll simply avoid the garage in future where I have a seeming discrepancy over the amount of gas they put in.

Well curiously I don't know any way the gas can leak out of the fill valve in question when the cut off valve at the tank is shut off after refill? Good to hear it resolved your issues though..

Edited March 15, 2013 by WarpSpeed

[WarpSpeed]

Neal, in a boot installation the tank and gauge in a professional installation should be calibrated together as a unit, if you look closely they generally measure in liters (never mind that one if you have an under car tank it seems maybe it doesn't apply)...The tanks are supposed to be standardized so not that difficult to do as it then only takes a few different gauges to cover all sizes across manufacturers.

In the absence of a picture to the contrary I am still convinced that the tank gauge displays in percent of volume, not specific litres. Confirmed by an LPG installer.

I stand corrected, it is volume percentage but as stated easy enough to determine liters by that indicator with consistent observation and comparison.

[roadrunner300]

Oh running a petrol or LPG station isn't that profitable if you have to pay rent or buy the land, it is if you owned the land from when it was worth very little. Using the land for generating more money is were the money is easily made up.

As you may have guessed LPG would be making the least. Stick with petrol and diesel and go to the oldest station there is, it's much less likely they'll need to rip you off.

Don t forget they no have serious costs for the people who pump in the LPG for you.

They are most of the time young womans or boys who don t get more then 300 baht a day or maybe even less who knows.

Today I drove 265 km with a filled up tank after this put in 500 baht 36 liters only al this with a 15 year old 6 cilinder 2.5 liter engine automatic car

You try this with a 15 year old diesel 2.5 automatic it will run 1 liter 9 km and I will need 29 liters of diesel almost 900 baht

[BSJ]

Oh running a petrol or LPG station isn't that profitable if you have to pay rent or buy the land, it is if you owned the land from when it was worth very little. Using the land for generating more money is were the money is easily made up.

As you may have guessed LPG would be making the least. Stick with petrol and diesel and go to the oldest station there is, it's much less likely they'll need to rip you off.

Don t forget they no have serious costs for the people who pump in the LPG for you.

They are most of the time young womans or boys who don t get more then 300 baht a day or maybe even less who knows.

Today I drove 265 km with a filled up tank after this put in 500 baht 36 liters only al this with a 15 year old 6 cilinder 2.5 liter engine automatic car

You try this with a 15 year old diesel 2.5 automatic it will run 1 liter 9 km and I will need 29 liters of diesel almost 900 baht

So reading between the lines and on the basis of what you say, only someone who is pedantic would make a fuss over the cost of LPG when it is common knowledge that it is one of the 2 cheapest fuels available in LOS, the other being NG.

[roadrunner300]

Oh running a petrol or LPG station isn't that profitable if you have to pay rent or buy the land, it is if you owned the land from when it was worth very little. Using the land for generating more money is were the money is easily made up.

As you may have guessed LPG would be making the least. Stick with petrol and diesel and go to the oldest station there is, it's much less likely they'll need to rip you off.

Don t forget they no have serious costs for the people who pump in the LPG for you.

They are most of the time young womans or boys who don t get more then 300 baht a day or maybe even less who knows.

Today I drove 265 km with a filled up tank after this put in 500 baht 36 liters only al this with a 15 year old 6 cilinder 2.5 liter engine automatic car

You try this with a 15 year old diesel 2.5 automatic it will run 1 liter 9 km and I will need 29 liters of diesel almost 900 baht

So reading between the lines and on the basis of what you say, only someone who is pedantic would make a fuss over the cost of LPG when it is common knowledge that it is one of the 2 cheapest fuels available in LOS, the other being NG.

If you drive as much as we do some 70k a year you make a fuss at any fuel and at any station if they make the wrong price for you.