Tiger "temple Of Lies" - A Follow Up Report...

[transam]

Think I remember a tele program where an Australian got a job taking care of the Tigers.

[harryfrompattaya]

[

So, coupled with the fact we did the last report, we are in a very good place to say that the Tiger Temple, nor its 100+ tigers are adding a single ounce to conservation efforts for tigers worldwide. We have no issue with people making their own free choices to go to Tiger Temple if they are comfortable to be supporting a captive tiger experience with poor welfare standards. However we object in the strongest form to the way that it is marketed as a sanctuary, a temple, a conservation effort or anything other than what it is - a money making tourist trap. Its good to start a debate, but fact based ones are always better, and unfounded claims against any source only serve to make those making them look ill informed.

The Head Monk and you are fighting for the same dollar He and you love money more than tigers

Edited March 18, 2013 by harryfrompattaya

[Whale]

If only...............

tourists (Thai and non Thai) were willing to give as much to a wild tiger conservation effort in Thailand. ..............a dream?

Maybe its the simple act of "selling" something, the tourists think they get "something" in return for for their money? Maybe conservation needs to re-look at how it raises money, not just appealing to one's "humanity". Lest be frank, a lack of humanity seems to be species signature. I dont support the existence of the Tiger temple in anyway. Apart from everything else it just seems a massive accident waiting to happen - maybe it has already? But they seem to have hit on something that appeals to tourists, is money generating and makes a link between people and animals.

Anyone have any interesting ideas how that could be used in a conservation effort?

[harryfrompattaya]

Is it possible to buy a small tiger in the zoo for everybody? I walk little bit outside the temple I don't see any monks take care the tigers like the media reports! The sour rounding looks ugly when you walk around! And after the shield come you enter wild life area, I turn around! Making a picture for 1000 bath with the head in the open tiger month no thank you! Wirhin 20 years all the tiger temple will be closed in Thailand! When population off tiger disappears like the forecast by Wwf! A buffalo temple, where tourist can ride on a buffalo should be then the more attractive for all!

No their will be more Tiger Temples becauses their is so much profit in it

My counsin Le Roy Ex Pimp is going to open one in Mississippi He has the land and permot and GRand Opening in 2 months 12 Tigers shoujld net him 4 Four Thousand US Dollars a week all year a around. And Le Roy is 78 years old and believe me everything in his name

[wildlifewarrior]

Your claims about CFW are completely unsubstantiated.

BUT

how do they affect the arguments against the temple? not one iota

No they aren't. I just haven't gone into detail here. But if you want to sponsor a wild dolphin, you know where to do it.

They affect the arguments because a report put together from stitched together tourist feedback has to be of dubious veracity.

Hi all - thanks to those who have supported our recent blog entry about a follow up visit to the Tiger Temple - an updated summary report will follow shortly. I was the one who visited the temple, and am the CEO of Care for the Wild

International.

A couple of points to just come in on (from tw25rw) - we are a very reputable source. We are a UK registered charity, which means we are governed by the Charity Commission and have to have full annual financial audits - all of which are available to download from our website or the Charity Commission's one. Alas, as a small charity we don't have a swimming pool or

luxury cars so I am not sure where this comes from, but as a charity we are more than legit in our field.

As well as supporting tiger projects in Thailand, we also work with the Wildlife Trust of India to run tiger protection networks across Southern India. In Kenya we have a long history of running anti-poaching patrols, each saving thousands of animals from snares every year. Linked to our 'issue' with Tiger Temple, we also now have a market leading campaign called RIGHT-tourism.org which gives travellers country specific animal friendly tourism advice. This has been showcased in various leading publications, and only this weekend we had an editorial feature about animal friendly tourism in the UK's Independent on

Sunday - a leading broadsheet.

We also play an active role in forums like CITES, just finished in Bangkok, and our expertise in the last few weeks alone has appeared on CNN, ITV News, Radio 5 Live (UK), BBC, the Guardian etc. So, coupled with the fact we did the last report, we are in a very good place to say that the Tiger Temple, nor its 100+ tigers are adding a single ounce to conservation efforts for tigers worldwide.

We have no issue with people making their own free choices to go to Tiger Temple if they are comfortable to be supporting a captive tiger experience with poor welfare standards. However we object in the strongest form to the way that it is marketed as a sanctuary, a temple, a conservation effort or anything other than what it is - a money making tourist trap.

[BangkokBP]

In my opinion, it should be in each and every charity donors interest to do their research prior to donating, and in the case of wildlife preservation - though there might be many appealing "special interest" groups with pet projects - only a slight pun intended - I would play it safe and donate to the World Wildlife Fund every time.

They look out for the interest, of not only the cute cuddly animals with public appeal, but also the small ugly ones that most wouldnt even notice if they disappeared.

BBP

[NanLaew]

There was a short news article on the BBC News about wildlife smuggling in Thailand. They focussed on tiger cubs and how once they are 'rescued' in transit, usually at Suvarnbhumi airport, they end up caged in pretty basic facilities. The point was made that tiger cubs cannot be successfully returned to the wild so they grow old and die in these tiger compounds. It seems strange that there are 'tiger zoos' and 'tiger temples' that are breeding for conservation at the same time as there's plenty of smuggled tigers being reared in other places. Do these zoos and temples get their fresh breeding stock from these cubs caught in illicit trade?

[wilcopops]

There was a short news article on the BBC News about wildlife smuggling in Thailand. They focussed on tiger cubs and how once they are 'rescued' in transit, usually at Suvarnbhumi airport, they end up caged in pretty basic facilities. The point was made that tiger cubs cannot be successfully returned to the wild so they grow old and die in these tiger compounds. It seems strange that there are 'tiger zoos' and 'tiger temples' that are breeding for conservation at the same time as there's plenty of smuggled tigers being reared in other places. Do these zoos and temples get their fresh breeding stock from these cubs caught in illicit trade?

You can't necessarily breed from these animals they have to be the same subspecies and inbreeding has to be avoided too.

However you'd have thought that DNA testing would help to find out where the animals had come from in the first place.

Edited March 22, 2013 by wilcopops

[wilcopops]

Tiger Temple

19/03/2013

There seems to be a lot of vituperation against those who criticise the temple but very little actual substance to these criticisms. I get the impression that some of these critics really havent glimpsed the whole picture.

However, finally someone asked, What DO we do to conserve the tiger?

To answer that I think one needs to try to understand the ecology, significance of the Tiger in the wild and the temples position.

With your indulgence, Ill attempt to give some idea of this in 3 parts.

First, Ill try to give an overview - the situation with ecology and try to put to sleep some misconceptions.

Then Ill attempt to show how the Tiger fits in to this and then

The temple - hopefully Ill show how the tiger temple does not fit into this at all.

BTW - Im NOT an idealist, , hippy, tree-hugger or any other stereotype. Im not even an animal lover, I dont get pink and fluffy at the sight of kittens or stray dogs. All hese are dismissive or derogatory terms so often used by those who devoid of any substantial argument to the contrary want to infer that they know better but in reality dont have any grounds for an argument at all. So may I suggest that rather than blindly gainsay my propositions why not formulate put forward a serious counter-argument yourself?

Dont shoot the messenger, shoot the argument

If anything, Im a realist and my concerns are based on the knowledge and publications of people - mostly scientists - who have dedicated their lives to the understanding of the world about us - in particular the natural world and how WE humans relate to it. My personal experiences and knowledge are not simply based on a day trip to a zoo - although I have visited zoos, nature reserves and National Parks both here and abroad.

Whether a particular animal is big, small cuddly or crawly is not of any great significance to me it is how it fits into the world ecosystems that is more important.

Heres a wiki definition for you.....

An ecosystem is a community of living organisms (plants, animals and microbes) in conjunction with the nonliving components of their environment (things like air, water and mineral soil), interacting as a system. These biotic and abiotic components are regarded as linked together through nutrient cycles and energy flows. As ecosystems are defined by the network of interactions among organisms, and between organisms and their environment, they can come in any size but usually encompass specific, limited spaces (although some scientists say that the entire planet is an ecosystem)

We live in a world of ecosystems and we not only are part of them, we rely on them for clean water , air and a stable climate; in fact our very existence.

These systems need to be intact to function. No animal or system is an isolated unit they are all interlinked and even interdependent. Interfering with a part of a system or a link can, to a lesser or greater degree, damage that system or destroy it completely taking with it an important link in a biological chain.

There seems to be a perception that preserving animals in captivity is in someway a satisfactory solution to extinction in the wild - this couldnt be further from the reality of the situation. Captive animals are not part of a functioning ecosystem.

Functioning planetary ecosystems is all that is sought after here - there are compelling arguments that anything less spells doom for us humans either in the long term or short. Without these eco-systems the planet dies and us along with it.

If you think this is just about tigers then think again, its about understanding the issues facing our global eco-system and changing the attitudes of some people to their environment. (Pooping in their own nest)

A Straw pole - The posts on this thread would indicate a massive knowledge-gap on these issues...and this amongst those whose cultures have had the benefit of decades or centuries of an eco-damaging consumer society - much longer than the average Thai person.

What happens if we damage an ecosystem? Sometimes the effects arent necessarily immediately noticeable, sometimes they are so gradual that we dont notice them for ages but sometimes the effects are swift and powerful.

There is the apocryphal story of the village in Malaysia that felt they were overrun with snakes. So they decided to do something about it. One way or another they managed to eradicate every snake, and the whole village breathed a sigh of relief......until after a very short period of time the whole village was overrun by rats.

You may not like snakes but they, like everything else, preform a function - they fit into the ecosystem and in this case humans were benefitting as they were keeping down the rat population,

Take a link out of any system and that system may well cease to function. We are a part of the system and we feel the effects - climate change is one. Water is another - in the future it is more likely that wars will not be fought about oil but about water.....already you can see discontent amongst neighbouring countries in S.E. Asia with the way China and Laos are damming rivers......

This web site has a pretty clear example showing how an eco-system can work...

http://www.nrri.umn.edu/worms/forest/ecosystems.html

So how about Tigers, what is their significance in ecosystems?

It would seem that most people would think that as a large and spectacular animal it would be a shame to loose it. That may be true - but then I suppose you might argue that so long as we have a few specimens locked up somewhere that is OK. ...Heres why that is not the case.

The Tiger is an apex predator, there are several sub-species living in different ecosystems; the local Tiger in Thailand is Panthera tigris corbetti. - All tigers require a large area to live in connected to other large areas with tigers in too; that is part of an even larger eco-system that requires vast areas of relatively undisturbed or at least uninterrupted land.

A tigress may have a territory of 20 km2 (7.7 sq mi), while the territories of males are much larger, covering 60 to 100 km2 (23 to 39 sq mi). The range of a male tends to overlap those of several females.

The S.E. Asian ecosystem has a topography, it needs streams and hills - not particularly lakes, it needs wild boar and deer as prey and of course forest.... other animals thrive in this system...including the Leopard and other smaller predatory cats...all require different prey etc. and few actually compete directly with each other as they are specialised to fit into different niches.

These systems provide for us such things as fresh water, which can be used by us once it has flowed outside the area and the forests in which the tigers live are the lungs of the planet - they regulate the atmosphere. CO2 etc.

A 40-year study of African, Asian, and South American tropical forests by the University of Leeds, shows tropical forests absorb about 18% of all carbon dioxide added by fossil fuels

Take the apex predators, or any link out of a system and things begin to go wrong...for instance - at first their prey may proliferate, this can result in over-eating of trees by deer, this changes to nature of the vegetation and habitat for other animals etc. etc. the ramifications continue.... eventually the trees die out an then the deer follow...

The smaller and less complete an ecosystem is, the more susceptible it becomes to interference by man - such as encroachment hunting, poaching, dams or unregulated tourism.

Animals (including humans) and plants dont exist in isolation - they are interdependent and the systems they live in are in turn interdependent., the tiger in Asia is an important link.

If we let these systems fall into disrepair we soon experience the effects......

For example - A tree-less countryside is significantly more prone to floods and landslides; this can in turn destroy productive farmland. If we encroach on reserves we will encounter problems with animals that used to live where our settlements are or want to eat our crops, and cattle as their own supply of prey is exhausted.

So in the long run - actually its quite a short run now - its in our interest to maintain these ecosystems as best we can - a resilient population of apex predators indicates a healthy ecosystem and the likelihood of more clean air, fresh water etc. for us...Keeping examples of individual parts of the system in zoos or botanical gardens doesnt have the same effect.

Finally, how does the temple fit into this? - Well it doesnt. Their philosophy seems to be based on the idea I mentioned earlier; that if we keep examples or specimens of a species alive in captivity then we are preserving the species.

What for? To look at? Well As Ive tried to point out above, looking simply doesnt address the issue - we need these creatures existing outside in their own healthy systems.

So maybe we could re-populate the wild sometime in the future?

The temple and its volunteers frequently imply that tigers may be trained to be reintroduced to the wild.

How? As mentioned above tigers need vast areas of land for breeding populations and they need to be set up - If it was no longer there we have to set up a NEW wilderness - but if by then we have already destroyed the original, what are the chances of creating a new one? - Truth is there IS still wilderness available.....it just needs organisation.

Virtually all tiger scientists agree that the fragmentation of wild tiger habitat is an extremely serious threat to their survival

The Temple implies and tells its volunteers and visitors that they are a conservation-orientated establishment - but this is patently not so.

Noahs ark at least had a guarantee that the animals would be released into the wild again - not so for many of our zoos and the temple as if their tacit acquiescence allows there will be no wild.... and the animals are not suitable for release anyway even if there is still somewhere to release them.

Breeding - Another inexplicable activity at the temple is that against all advice they have allowed the tigers to breed. .... (Did I say inexplicable? - not really - breeding tigers means cubs and cubs means more money.......lots of tigers too mean the possibility of trade???)

Usually, if a zoo wants to breed a particularly rare or endangered animal there is a massive amount of preparation involved especially around DNA suitability. Zoos around the world are scoured for a suitable mate. Firstly they need to be of the same subspecies - i.e. Tigris Corbetti - Secondly they need to be suitably un-related. A big problem with breeding from a small population is that there is a high risk of inbreeding. So animals are often shipped from one part of the world to another to avoid inbreeding

When all the necessary tests etc. have been successfully carried out the arranged marriage takes place.

The temple does no such thing

They allow the tigers to mate at will the Abbott has declared this is temple policy.

The result over 100 Tigers (114) is the estimate with dubious parentage no DNA history and possible crossbreeding between sub-species. If they were released or somehow got into the wild and bred they would devastate the indigenous population of Corbetti tigers. We cant even use their genes to bolster the gene pool of the wild population.

So despite all the evidence to the contrary, the Temple continues to propagate the myth that they are some kind of conservation organisation. This gives visitors the impression that by visiting here they are in some way helping the tigers in the wild.

Is the temple educational? No it misleads the public and promulgates misleading ideas about the nature of Tigers and their situation in the wild.

So other than make money, the temple achieves nothing.... in fact it damages - it damages the chances of tigers in the wild, it damages conservation efforts, it damages an already delicate gene pool...it damages Thailands wildlife and conservation reputation,

The future...

Increasing the tiger population in the wild is possible - with international cooperation and some real effort from national governments.........

Habitat - the population of tigers in Thailand is actually a lot smaller than it could be. Although habitat has been lost, a survey a few years ago suggested that with better management there is room for up to 2000 tigers in Thailands forests and along the borders.

Tigers dont have passports, just ecosystems; - For those of you who like to throw their hands up and say were not Thai so we cant do anything - think again! Protection has to be an international affair...this why international pressure groups are so important. Bangkok has just hosted the CITES world conference - how much affect this will have and whether or not Thailand lives up to promises remains to be seen, but their leaders know now that the eyes of the world are upon them and organisations like CITES, Panthera and CFW and many others are constantly putting pressure on the rich and powerful around the world to take action.

Eco-tourism - wildlife does not need to be in a cage or box to make money - more and more people are keen that their holidays are constructive and as green as possible - they will pay a premium if they are sure that their money is going to something constructive.........

Petting - Ask yourself WHY do you need to get so close to an apex predator - is it REALLY necessary or are these sorts of places not just the last remnants of 19th century circuses? Are these sorts of encounters anything more than eco-masturbation?

Personally Id get much more of a thrill finding the fresh footprint or scat of a REAL LIVE WILD TIGER on a walk in the forest.

INFORMATION -

If you want to read up more on big cats and Tigers in Thailand - check out Dr Alan Rabinowitz...

He is one of the worlds leading authorities on Big Cat Conservation - especially with Tigers in Burma and Thailand.

He has written several papers on big cat conservation and also some highly readable books one about his early times with Tiger conservation in Thailand - Chasing the Dragons Tail; (those who have lived here for a while will recognise a lot of the trials and tribulations he went through!)

He is also responsible for an inspiring new project to link up fragmented tiger ecosystems by creating a Tiger protection zone or corridor that joins up tiger populations through several Asian countries from ASEAN to the Indian subcontinent.

The BBC have also produced a stunning documentary about Tigers in Bhutan that features Dr. Rabinowitz and his project and well worth a watch.

BBC - Lost Land of the Tiger

http://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/b00ty69k

His details below.........

Alan Rabinowitz

Zoologist, conservationist, field biologist and the CEO of Panthera @pantheracats NY-based nonprofit dedicated to protecting the world's 37 wild cat species

New York, NY · http://www.panthera.org

This has been just an outline; I havent covered all the issues here. The temple has also been criticised for poor levels of husbandry, the lack of knowledge of their wards, neglecting other animals in their care, lack of veterinary services, unskilled workers/volunteers, poor safety, poor facilities and even possible drugging of the animals. They have also illegally shipped or swopped tigers

Tigers have a great commercial value - as parts for Chinese quack medicine or alive as tourist entertainment. But the problem with all this is that the increasing demand for tigers puts an ever increasing strain on the indigenous wild population - a tiger corpse is said to be worth $10000 - in bits - even though the original poachers wont usually see much of this, it still represents a good profit to anyone with a bottle of poison and a pick-up truck.... and so long as the temple keeps up its charade it will be difficult to make the general public aware of the plight of these animals and their environment.

Edited March 22, 2013 by wilcopops

[wilcopops]

Your claims about CFW are completely unsubstantiated.

BUT

how do they affect the arguments against the temple? not one iota

No they aren't. I just haven't gone into detail here. But if you want to sponsor a wild dolphin, you know where to do it.

They affect the arguments because a report put together from stitched together tourist feedback has to be of dubious veracity.

If you had read the report you'd see that that - together with your allegations about their address are untrue. When you haven't got anything to support your ideas with you seem to just make them up.

are you connected to the tiger temple??

Edited March 22, 2013 by wilcopops

[Rimmer]

Inflammatory post removed

[Thereisnoif]

It is only a matter of time before someone gets mauled over there .

[MacChine]

Can foreigners protest this sort of thing, I know participation in political themed protests is banned, but ..?

Edited March 23, 2013 by MacChine

[MacChine]

I think plenty of land exists, they would be poached is the problem. Interesting vid demonstrating a lot of stupidity regarding the animals

http://www.thesun.co.uk/sol/homepage/news/4532530/footage-of-tourists-teasing-drugged-tigers-animal-rights-groups.html

Edited March 23, 2013 by MacChine

[wilcopops]

I think plenty of land exists, they would be poached is the problem. Interesting vid demonstrating a lot of stupidity regarding the animals

http://www.thesun.co.uk/sol/homepage/news/4532530/footage-of-tourists-teasing-drugged-tigers-animal-rights-groups.html

"Denuded"???? - not a true picture, rather an assumption, I'd suggest.....

THere is a report by some (American) zoologists about 5 or 6 years ago that reviews the forestry of Thailand and concluded it in theory could support up to 2000 more tigers if correctly managed - Although there has been serious deforestation there is a lot left. Fragmentation is a problem - areas to small for a tiger population are isolated from other areas, preventing the animals from intermingling and breeding - hence the idea of wildlife or tiger corridors.

the main problems are encroachment, lack of prey poaching and general human interference and mismanagement.

The Mae Wong dam project, for instance has several times been rejected on environmental grounds but this govt seems determined to try and push the dam through - this is on the edge of a tiger population and of course would encroach on that population if allowed to go through.

The aim of the tiger protection schemes is to something like double the world tiger population by 2020. They consider this possible. This would take into account some poaching etc etc - they hope to outstrip the depletion of tigers by humans by good management and enforcement. just saying there is no land and they'll all be killed by poachers is unfounded and of course is used by many to justify inaction.

Furthermore some posters still don't seem to get it - REINTRODUCTION - from captivity is not deemed to be the method for doing this....the idea is that given the correct environment and protection the natural population of tigers left to their own devices may recover It might be helpful if those interested looked up how tigers behave in the wild and how they mate. The temple's population CANNOT ever be introduced to the wild as their genetic make -up is unknown. They are simply breeding more and more liabilities to be dealt with later.....

One of the most obvious welfare concerns at the temple is the monks insistence on feeding the tigers cooked meat (chicken) as they say this curbs their "desire for blood or killing" - this is a whimsical idea at best but it also deprives the tigers of the full range of nutrients that come from raw, fresh meat.

As tigers need several square kilometre each to roam around in, the temple will NEVER have enough space for the ever increasing population either.

Another complaint is the lack of experienced veterinary care at the temple - one animal recently strangled itself on a "toy" that had been put it its cage. This sort of blunder could be avoided if the staff took heed of advice that has been offered to them by those familiar with big cat husbandry.

there have been some reported incidents of breaches of safety at the temple - but I have witnessed situations (including a runaway foal) that were clearly potentially unsafe, I would suggest that the average volunteer / handler holding a tiger on a chain would be incapable of holding back the animal if it did decide to "bolt".

Edited March 23, 2013 by wilcopops

[kkerry]

wilcopops, what are your qualifications/background on tigers? Are you a vet?

[transam]

I think plenty of land exists, they would be poached is the problem. Interesting vid demonstrating a lot of stupidity regarding the animals

http://www.thesun.co.uk/sol/homepage/news/4532530/footage-of-tourists-teasing-drugged-tigers-animal-rights-groups.html

"Denuded"???? - not a true picture, rather an assumption, I'd suggest.....

THere is a report by some (American) zoologists about 5 or 6 years ago that reviews the forestry of Thailand and concluded it in theory could support up to 2000 more tigers if correctly managed - Although there has been serious deforestation there is a lot left. Fragmentation is a problem - areas to small for a tiger population are isolated from other areas, preventing the animals from intermingling and breeding - hence the idea of wildlife or tiger corridors.

the main problems are encroachment, lack of prey poaching and general human interference and mismanagement.

The Mae Wong dam project, for instance has several times been rejected on environmental grounds but this govt seems determined to try and push the dam through - this is on the edge of a tiger population and of course would encroach on that population if allowed to go through.

The aim of the tiger protection schemes is to something like double the world tiger population by 2020. They consider this possible. This would take into account some poaching etc etc - they hope to outstrip the depletion of tigers by humans by good management and enforcement. just saying there is no land and they'll all be killed by poachers is unfounded and of course is used by many to justify inaction.

Furthermore some posters still don't seem to get it - REINTRODUCTION - from captivity is not deemed to be the method for doing this....the idea is that given the correct environment and protection the natural population of tigers left to their own devices may recover It might be helpful if those interested looked up how tigers behave in the wild and how they mate. The temple's population CANNOT ever be introduced to the wild as their genetic make -up is unknown. They are simply breeding more and more liabilities to be dealt with later.....

One of the most obvious welfare concerns at the temple is the monks insistence on feeding the tigers cooked meat (chicken) as they say this curbs their "desire for blood or killing" - this is a whimsical idea at best but it also deprives the tigers of the full range of nutrients that come from raw, fresh meat.

As tigers need several square kilometre each to roam around in, the temple will NEVER have enough space for the ever increasing population either.

Another complaint is the lack of experienced veterinary care at the temple - one animal recently strangled itself on a "toy" that had been put it its cage. This sort of blunder could be avoided if the staff took heed of advice that has been offered to them by those familiar with big cat husbandry.

there have been some reported incidents of breaches of safety at the temple - but I have witnessed situations (including a runaway foal) that were clearly potentially unsafe, I would suggest that the average volunteer / handler holding a tiger on a chain would be incapable of holding back the animal if it did decide to "bolt".

So your going to shut down, or want, ALL zoo's world round containing ''wild'' animals. ?.

[wilcopops]

I think plenty of land exists, they would be poached is the problem. Interesting vid demonstrating a lot of stupidity regarding the animals

Try reading before you post. Then attempt a little comprehension.

http://www.thesun.co.uk/sol/homepage/news/4532530/footage-of-tourists-teasing-drugged-tigers-animal-rights-groups.html

"Denuded"???? - not a true picture, rather an assumption, I'd suggest.....

THere is a report by some (American) zoologists about 5 or 6 years ago that reviews the forestry of Thailand and concluded it in theory could support up to 2000 more tigers if correctly managed - Although there has been serious deforestation there is a lot left. Fragmentation is a problem - areas to small for a tiger population are isolated from other areas, preventing the animals from intermingling and breeding - hence the idea of wildlife or tiger corridors.

the main problems are encroachment, lack of prey poaching and general human interference and mismanagement.

The Mae Wong dam project, for instance has several times been rejected on environmental grounds but this govt seems determined to try and push the dam through - this is on the edge of a tiger population and of course would encroach on that population if allowed to go through.

The aim of the tiger protection schemes is to something like double the world tiger population by 2020. They consider this possible. This would take into account some poaching etc etc - they hope to outstrip the depletion of tigers by humans by good management and enforcement. just saying there is no land and they'll all be killed by poachers is unfounded and of course is used by many to justify inaction.

Furthermore some posters still don't seem to get it - REINTRODUCTION - from captivity is not deemed to be the method for doing this....the idea is that given the correct environment and protection the natural population of tigers left to their own devices may recover It might be helpful if those interested looked up how tigers behave in the wild and how they mate. The temple's population CANNOT ever be introduced to the wild as their genetic make -up is unknown. They are simply breeding more and more liabilities to be dealt with later.....

One of the most obvious welfare concerns at the temple is the monks insistence on feeding the tigers cooked meat (chicken) as they say this curbs their "desire for blood or killing" - this is a whimsical idea at best but it also deprives the tigers of the full range of nutrients that come from raw, fresh meat.

As tigers need several square kilometre each to roam around in, the temple will NEVER have enough space for the ever increasing population either.

Another complaint is the lack of experienced veterinary care at the temple - one animal recently strangled itself on a "toy" that had been put it its cage. This sort of blunder could be avoided if the staff took heed of advice that has been offered to them by those familiar with big cat husbandry.

there have been some reported incidents of breaches of safety at the temple - but I have witnessed situations (including a runaway foal) that were clearly potentially unsafe, I would suggest that the average volunteer / handler holding a tiger on a chain would be incapable of holding back the animal if it did decide to "bolt".

So your going to shut down, or want, ALL zoo's world round containing ''wild'' animals. ?.

[wilcopops]

I think plenty of land exists, they would be poached is the problem. Interesting vid demonstrating a lot of stupidity regarding the animals

http://www.thesun.co.uk/sol/homepage/news/4532530/footage-of-tourists-teasing-drugged-tigers-animal-rights-groups.html

"Denuded"???? - not a true picture, rather an assumption, I'd suggest.....

THere is a report by some (American) zoologists about 5 or 6 years ago that reviews the forestry of Thailand and concluded it in theory could support up to 2000 more tigers if correctly managed - Although there has been serious deforestation there is a lot left. Fragmentation is a problem - areas to small for a tiger population are isolated from other areas, preventing the animals from intermingling and breeding - hence the idea of wildlife or tiger corridors.

the main problems are encroachment, lack of prey poaching and general human interference and mismanagement.

The Mae Wong dam project, for instance has several times been rejected on environmental grounds but this govt seems determined to try and push the dam through - this is on the edge of a tiger population and of course would encroach on that population if allowed to go through.

The aim of the tiger protection schemes is to something like double the world tiger population by 2020. They consider this possible. This would take into account some poaching etc etc - they hope to outstrip the depletion of tigers by humans by good management and enforcement. just saying there is no land and they'll all be killed by poachers is unfounded and of course is used by many to justify inaction.

Furthermore some posters still don't seem to get it - REINTRODUCTION - from captivity is not deemed to be the method for doing this....the idea is that given the correct environment and protection the natural population of tigers left to their own devices may recover It might be helpful if those interested looked up how tigers behave in the wild and how they mate. The temple's population CANNOT ever be introduced to the wild as their genetic make -up is unknown. They are simply breeding more and more liabilities to be dealt with later.....

One of the most obvious welfare concerns at the temple is the monks insistence on feeding the tigers cooked meat (chicken) as they say this curbs their "desire for blood or killing" - this is a whimsical idea at best but it also deprives the tigers of the full range of nutrients that come from raw, fresh meat.

As tigers need several square kilometre each to roam around in, the temple will NEVER have enough space for the ever increasing population either.

Another complaint is the lack of experienced veterinary care at the temple - one animal recently strangled itself on a "toy" that had been put it its cage. This sort of blunder could be avoided if the staff took heed of advice that has been offered to them by those familiar with big cat husbandry.

there have been some reported incidents of breaches of safety at the temple - but I have witnessed situations (including a runaway foal) that were clearly potentially unsafe, I would suggest that the average volunteer / handler holding a tiger on a chain would be incapable of holding back the animal if it did decide to "bolt".

So your going to shut down, or want, ALL zoo's world round containing ''wild'' animals. ?.[/quote

Would you care to explain that comment?]

[wilcopops]

wilcopops, what are your qualifications/background on tigers? Are you a vet?

See above

If you have a problem with anything I've posted, please point it out and I will address it

[wilcopops]

go on then...why do you ask if I'm a vet?

[Whale]

Most Thai's that I speak to seem to have no idea that wild tigers even exist anymore in Thailand, let alone some of the other exotica.

If I show them a picture they are literally stunned that such animals still actually exist.

The biggest issue of conservation in Thailand is one of public awareness IMHO. The current work of Green Asia, a local production company specializing in Wildlife has to be applauded as the first truly Thai international standard wildlife footage that is being shown throughout Thailand via PBS for local awareness.

http://production.greenasia.tv/

[wilcopops]

Most Thai's that I speak to seem to have no idea that wild tigers even exist anymore in Thailand, let alone some of the other exotica.

If I show them a picture they are literally stunned that such animals still actually exist.

The biggest issue of conservation in Thailand is one of public awareness IMHO. The current work of Green Asia, a local production company specializing in Wildlife has to be applauded as the first truly Thai international standard wildlife footage that is being shown throughout Thailand via PBS for local awareness.

http://production.greenasia.tv/

I wouldn't like to oversimplify here but public awareness is a massive problem both inside and outside Thailand.

As you can see by some of the posts on this thread and others, ignorance of conservation issues is not restricted to Thai people only.

Conservation too is an international concern and can't be addressed on a national basis alone.

I think it's pretty telling that despite the major problems with conservation in Thailand, this web site does not see fit to have a "Green" sub forum.

I'd say this is an example of ignoring the elephant in the room - in this case quite literally

Edited March 25, 2013 by wilcopops

[Whale]

Agreed. Wholeheartedly. Without reservation.

_________________________

Here is one the great awareness dilemas in Thailand, for me. Go to google, google images, youtube, et al. Search : Thailand; Tiger.

The results speak for themselves. Tourists at the temple have the mass of links. The awareness battle is being lost, and for all that I am against the "Tiger Temple", I think it has to be part of Thailand's solution.

Its insane, its got out of hand, the risks are huge, the treatment of animals is allegedly (I have never been nor would go) poor, etc, etc, etc. But it generates massive interest from tourism be it ethically improper or not.

The 100+ tigers in the temple exist. Period. Perhaps 200 wild tigers exist in Thailand. There must be a way, within legal frameworks, to use the interest in one to support the other.

Of course I do not have the answer - but thats the power of forums, many heads. And even if we have done nothing but talk, awareness has been raised anyway. So the creation of a "green" sub-forum as Wilcopops has suggested would not only help people who use these forums find relevant stuff but could also have a real world benefit: Promoting Conservation Awareness.

Edited March 26, 2013 by Whale

[francescoassisi]

CFW have released the finalised version of the new report on the temple.

http://www.careforthewild.com/what-we-do/campaigns/temple-of-lies/

This is not the same as the shorter article posted by the OP earlier address in this thread - there is also an accompanying video.





The full report can be downloaded here.

http://www.careforthewild.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/05/Tiger_Temple_Report_0413_FINAL.pdf

Edited May 19, 2013 by SeaVisionBurma

[BoonToong]

I really wish they had not Titled this report 'Temple of Lies'.

Not being a Vet and, therefore, not being able to make a qualified judgement about whether or not these tigers are being maltreated (I saw no evidence of maltreatment when I visited), I rely on unbiased, expert, objective reports to educate me.

Whilst I suspect that the content of the report might be correct (how the <deleted> do I really know?), giving it that title immediately puts me off; it's tabloid-style reporting. Show me a scientific report conducted by scientists or someone else suitable qualified, then I might begin to accept it as valid.

[francescoassisi]

I really wish they had not Titled this report 'Temple of Lies'.

Not being a Vet and, therefore, not being able to make a qualified judgement about whether or not these tigers are being maltreated (I saw no evidence of maltreatment when I visited), I rely on unbiased, expert, objective reports to educate me.

Whilst I suspect that the content of the report might be correct (how the <deleted> do I really know?), giving it that title immediately puts me off; it's tabloid-style reporting. Show me a scientific report conducted by scientists or someone else suitable qualified, then I might begin to accept it as valid.

You seem to have problem with who is qualified here and what the criticisms are. a vet is not necessarily the best to address the conservation criticisms. Which part of the report do you find "unscientific"? Most of the criticisms have a sound proven scientific basis. Those making the criticisms are reporting accepted scientific principles. What kind of "scientist' would you like.....or would you just like anyone in a white coat? Edited May 19, 2013 by francescoassisi

[BoonToong]

I really wish they had not Titled this report 'Temple of Lies'.

Not being a Vet and, therefore, not being able to make a qualified judgement about whether or not these tigers are being maltreated (I saw no evidence of maltreatment when I visited), I rely on unbiased, expert, objective reports to educate me.

Whilst I suspect that the content of the report might be correct (how the <deleted> do I really know?), giving it that title immediately puts me off; it's tabloid-style reporting. Show me a scientific report conducted by scientists or someone else suitable qualified, then I might begin to accept it as valid.

You seem to have problem with who is qualified here and what the criticisms are. a vet is not necessarily the best to address the conservation criticisms. Which part of the report do you find "unscientific"? Most of the criticisms have a sound proven scientific basis. Those making the criticisms are reporting accepted scientific principles. What kind of "scientist' would you like.....or would you just like anyone in a white coat?

I did not say I had a problem with the criticisms; I simply do not think the title is particularly sensible and I would like the report-writers to qualify what they have reported.

I took the time to visit their website (before I posted above) and not one of the members of the organisation listed on their website seems to have a relevant qualification (is there a qualification in conservation?, I bet there is) so I don't see where your assumption (?) that the report follows 'accepted scientific principles' comes from; did we read the same report?

Please don't get me wrong, I abhor cruelty, but I do question that form of reporting.

[wilcopops]

I really wish they had not Titled this report 'Temple of Lies'.

Not being a Vet and, therefore, not being able to make a qualified judgement about whether or not these tigers are being maltreated (I saw no evidence of maltreatment when I visited), I rely on unbiased, expert, objective reports to educate me.

Whilst I suspect that the content of the report might be correct (how the <deleted> do I really know?), giving it that title immediately puts me off; it's tabloid-style reporting. Show me a scientific report conducted by scientists or someone else suitable qualified, then I might begin to accept it as valid.

You seem to have problem with who is qualified here and what the criticisms are. a vet is not necessarily the best to address the conservation criticisms. Which part of the report do you find "unscientific"? Most of the criticisms have a sound proven scientific basis. Those making the criticisms are reporting accepted scientific principles. What kind of "scientist' would you like.....or would you just like anyone in a white coat?

I did not say I had a problem with the criticisms; I simply do not think the title is particularly sensible and I would like the report-writers to qualify what they have reported.

I took the time to visit their website (before I posted above) and not one of the members of the organisation listed on their website seems to have a relevant qualification (is there a qualification in conservation?, I bet there is) so I don't see where your assumption (?) that the report follows 'accepted scientific principles' comes from; did we read the same report?

Please don't get me wrong, I abhor cruelty, but I do question that form of reporting.

I don't don't think you understand what the report does.....it is a "report" - it has used standard knowledge of Tigers, conservation and animal welfare and applied them to the temple. I can't see how you need a "scientist" or "qualification" for this. But let me dig up some references - you obviously missed them.

REFERENCES

www.tigertemple.org/Eng/index.php

http://www.openworldthailand.com/index.php?lay=show&ac=photo_view&event_id=2240

Worldwide Fund for Nature, 2008 Tigers

http://www.panda.org/about_wwf/what_we_do/species/about_species/species_factsheets/tigers/index.cfm

Seidensticker J, Jackson P, Christie S 1999. Riding the Tiger: Tiger Conservation in Human-Dominated Landscapes.

Cambridge University Press.

Karanth KU, Nichols JD, Kumar NS, Link WA, Hines JE 2004 Tigers and their prey: Predicting carnivore densities from prey

abundance Proceedings Of The National Academy Of Sciences ff the USA, 101 (14): 4854-4858.

Clubb R, Mason GJ 2007 Natural behavioural biology as a risk factor in carnivore welfare: How analysing species differences

could help zoos improve enclosures. Applied Animal Behaviour Science, 102: 303-328

Big Cat Rescue 2008 http://www.bigcatrescue.org/tiger.htm

World Association of Zoos and Aquaria 2008 http://www.waza.org/virtualzoo/factsheet.php?id=112-007-002-

005&view=Cats.

Management Authority of Thailand 2007 Conservation of and trade in tigers: Report submitted by Thailand for the 14th

meeting of the Conference of the Parties. CITES CoP14 Doc.52 Annex 6

IUCN Cat Specialist Group 1996 Species Accounts - Tigers. http://lynx.uio.no/lynx/catsgportal/cat-website/catfolk/tiger-

02.htm

O'Brien SJ, Luo SL, Kim JH, Johnson WE 2005 Molecular Genetic Analysis Reveals Six Living Subspecies of Tiger, Pathera

tigris. Cat News 42, 6-8. Spring 2005

Tiger Temple Website 2008. http://www.tigertemple.org/content/content_detail_e.php?Category=Construction&No=245

Sunquist F 2002 Wild Cats of the World. University of Chicago Press

Bush M, Phillips L, Montali R, Dierenfeld E, Hakala S, Traylor-Holzer K, Binczik G, Tilson R 2002 Birth, Growth and Rearing of

Tiger Cubs. in Management and Conservation of Captive Tigers Panthera tigris. Tilson R, Brady G, Traylor-Holzer K, Armstrong

D (eds). American Zoo and Aquarium Association

Fraser AF, Broom DM 1990 Farm Animal Behaviour and Welfare. Bailliere Tindall, London

Hinde RA 1970 Animal Behaviour. A synthesis of ethological and comparative psychology. 2nd edition, McGraw Hill.

Hofer MA 1981 Parental contributions to the development of their offspring. in Parental care in mammals Gubernick DJ,

Klopfer PH (eds) pp. 77-105. New York: Plenum Press.

Dierenfield ES 1987 Nutritional Considerations in Captive Tiger Management. In Tigers of the World Tilson R, Seal US (eds)

Noyes Publications, Park Ridge NJ pp 149 - 160, 1987

Thanawongnuwech R, Amonsin A, Tantilertcharoen R, Damrongwatanapokin S, Theamboonlers A, Payungporn S,

Nanthapornphiphat K, Ratanamungklanon S, Tunak E, Songserm T, Vivatthanavanich V, Lekdumrongsak T,

Kesdangsakonwut S, Tunhikorn S, Poovorawan Y Probable tiger-to-tiger transmission of avian influenza H5N1. Emerging

Infectious Diseases, 2005 11, 5 - 7 . http://www.cdc.gov/ncidod/EID/vol11no05/05-0007.htm

http://www.lonelyplanet.com/thorntree/thread.jspa?threadID=1312512

http://www.travelfish.org/board/post/thailand/616_Tiger-Temple/0

www.youtube.com/watch?v=U5d7wEAZZb4

http://www.travellerspoint.com/forum.cfm?thread=33274&start=11

http://www.lonelyplanet.com/thorntree/message.jspa?messageID=11777782

http://www.tigertemple.org/Eng/good_q.htm

Schiller HJ, Cullinane DC, Sawyer MD, Zietlow SP 2007 Captive tiger attack: Case report and review of the literature.

American Surgeon 73 516-519

Cohle SD, Harlan CW, Harlan G 1990 Fatal Big Cat Attacks. American Journal of Forensic Medicine and Pathology 11 208-2

.....and you certainly won't find that sort of citation by any of those who support the temple.

Edited May 19, 2013 by wilcopops

[wilcopops]

It seems to me that there is in fact NO possible way anyone can say a good thing about the temple. So what they resort to doing is criticising the critics. However this in itself is a pretty facile exercise as they don't seem either the basic information about the temple or eve a rudimentary knowledge of ecology wildlife and conservation. e. g. "is there a qualification in conservation?" So they largely resort to bickering or quibbling over aspects that aren't even central to the problem.

i fail to see how you can make a valid point if you have absolutely no background information.

Edited May 19, 2013 by wilcopops