You're Fired

[Marcorue1]

As the school year comes to an end, the April holidays mark a time for teachers to rest, travel and take a well earned break from the class room.

However not all school offer a paid April holiday but when I found a school that did I signed the year contract and got started teaching. So you can understand my shock when this week I was called into a meeting to be tolded that the school teaching department wanted to end my contract a month early.

When I asked the reason why they told me that my teaching was fine and that my classroom management was not in question but they felt instead that my productivity outside of the classroom was not what they wanted and that's why they wanted to end the contract now. I tried to find out more about the reason that they were giving me but they could not give me a straight answer and this made me question there motives.

With all the teaching now over, the exams marked and grades finalized. Finishing a contract a month early could only be for them to save money. I tried to reason with them, pointing out that only a month was left on my contract and that until now I was not aware for any issues with my work. I told them that I need the reason why they wanted to end my contract at this time and that I disagreed with the way I was been treated.

This only created an argument with them telling me that they can end the contract when they wish, so instead I moved away from this and pointed out that they should have a meeting with a teacher as soon as they feel a teacher is not working to there standards and they should make it clear to the teacher what they want so the teacher can make changes to there work. They agreed with this and this gave me the change to point out that foreign teacher are tied to there job and that they were making things very hard for me as I am dependent on my wage and my work visa.

They understood and after one hour of talks they decided they would not end my contract and in fact they decided that they would offer me another one year contract. Which shocked me even more!!

Anyway the sad part of this story is that the teacher who had a meeting with them after me was not so lucky and is now unemployed and looking for work. He will need to make a visa run and search for a new job this April, with no money coming in he will have to save every penny this month until he can find work.

The point I'm making about this story is that it's so easy for schools to end foreign teachers contracts and in this case just to save money over the holidays. I was only offered another contract as this way they still have a teacher but what's to stop them from doing this next year.

The teacher who got fired will not be able to rest at the end of a year of teaching, he will not get a break and his only travel will be to the border to get his visa renewed. For those teachers who are looking for work this year don't believe everything a school tells you and what is written in the contract. Take a closer look and as every contract states a school can fire you based on there own evaluation of your performance and what does that mean?

You too may hear the words before your contract comes to an end, "YOU'RE FIRED".

Edited March 23, 2013 by Marcorue1

[Marcorue1]

Midasthailand please keep your comments on the subject, a teacher had lost his job and I would hope you would respect the topic and stop acting like an idiot.

Edited March 23, 2013 by Marcorue1

[aidenai]

Sorry to hear this all, Marco.

I've always had employment contracts with a 3 months notice for both parties. Advantages and disadvantages! In this case it would have been an advantage.

Best of luck to you and your friend.

[Marcorue1]

Aidenai thank you, I think in future this is what I'm going to look out for as its so unfair that they can do this. I am very sad for the other teacher, he must feel so bad and let down by the school. We look to them for help and surport as we are foreigner in this country and then in the end this is how the treat us.

[thaicbr]

If you have a contract. Check it. Most give 1 months notice unless gross negligence.

The labour dept frowns on this sort of behavior. I would suggest the other teacher goes to the labour dept (same place you got your work permit) with the contract and asks for advice. Maybe telling the school 1st what he is doing. Companies/schools do not like tangling with labour.

Good luck

[scooterboy]

That's really bad news, but it seems often to be the norm - especially out in the sticks (away from MoL offices). There are plenty of good schools around that don't make a teacher's life and working conditions a guessing game. Sounds rather like your school are taking advantage of things - though there's not much anyone can really do about it.

Sure, the Labout Dept. can perhaps be helpful, but just be careful things don't backfire on you, that's all.

Best of luck to you - and especially to your friend.

Oh, hell - the grammar police are here again.........

Edited March 23, 2013 by scooterboy

[Marcorue1]

Thaicbr thank you, I will let him know. Yes I think this could work, he is a good teacher and this is very unfair what has happened. Our contract are not so good and It seems they don't have to give us notice but as this behavior is not very fair I think the labour department maybe able to help. Maybe this will stop the school acting like this in future.

[Spoonman]

Collect the 1 months notice (pay) and move on.......... not sure why this is an issue given there is only 1 month left on the contract ?

[Marcorue1]

The grammar police need to learn to read, I said that the school was fine with teaching. The reason they gave was productivity outside the class room. So I didn't make myself look busy enough when I was in the office.

This school was trying to save money and damage teacher lives that's the point so please stick too it.

[Marcorue1]

Spoonman they want to end the contract this month with a weeks notice, and no pay in April. It's a problem because we would not have a work visa and have to leave Thailand within a week.

They are not paying for next month, they are not giving him a month, just a week

Edited March 23, 2013 by Marcorue1

[thaicbr]

When they cancel the work permit and Visa. You now only have 24hours to get a new visa.

Some places will be nice enough to leave the visa etc until expiration. But I doubt these guys will.

[culicine]

The grammar police need to learn to read, I said that the school was fine with teaching. The reason they gave was productivity outside the class room. So I didn't make myself look busy enough when I was in the office.

This school was trying to save money and damage teacher lives that's the point so please sick been witk too it.

I would think that if you completed your contract - you should be paid in April. The MoL will frown on this. If they ended your contract early they will need to provide ongoing evidence of what exactly they were unhappy with regarding your employment. Ask them to pay you April or you will take it up with the Labo will r department. Might as well put it to them, as it seems you won't be working for them again anyway. I assume you have only done a year with the school, so you won't gain a lot. Buy I hope they will be made to pay April though. Can't do much about the work permit, When they cancel it you will have to leave the country quickly.

A teacher with us for 7 years was let go last weel. He didn't get on with admin...and that's the only reason. He got one month extra pay. I would have been pissed, but this is a Private School. I would have been down the MoL real fast in his case.Labor Law takes precedence over the Private School Act if there is a conflict.

[Rolo Tomazi]

midasthailand - get off your high horse, a few mistakes here and there and some creative word usage and spelling makes this post only more interesting. I like the "surport", it has a French flair, and that the "labor department maybe able to help" is also creative - may maybe be able - or: maybe may be able - - -

If he teaches 12-year-old kids for peanuts, 50 in a room with open doors and windows, where's the harm? They'll never reach his level anyways.

I've learned that contracts are only valid when they benefit Thai people; as soon as you point out that they have certain obligations, they change the subject. Or the contract.

You must be a good talker to be able to argue long enough until they decided to keep you and fire the next guy. That kind of shows you how things work around here and that the reason for your dismissal was bogus. Someone realized that they could save some money if they fire a teacher now, no matter what the contract states. You were lucky to talk your way out of it, so the other guy had to go, and I'm sure they found a reason to fire him.

I would have done the same, I would have tried to keep my job. That somebody else got fired is not your fault, you couldn't have known.

Maybe he wasn't a good talker! What's the use of perfect punctuation, spelling and grammar if you can't talk your way out of getting laid off? :-)

Edited March 23, 2013 by Rolo Tomazi

[kagan]

If u work for more than 6 months u get a month pay when fired unless u break contract or do something crazy. Google thai labor laws or call the labor dept. good luck.

I have worked for five years at my school, if they fire me for no reason i get 8 months pay i think

[isawasnake]

Sorry to say it, but you obviously weren't a very hot commodity. People that get the heave ho usually aren't the best performers. Just a wild guess, I could be 100% wrong of course.

[Scott]

Off-topic posts have been deleted as well as replies. Suspensions will be given as well.

If you cannot stay on topic, please don't post in this forum.

[thunder30101]

You were fired unjustly not because of your teaching or actions outside the classroom, they had budgeted for a 12 month contract which was funded by the MOE. They fired you to put that months salary in their pockets, for this reason alone i would file a complaint with the labor dept just so they have to kick some of that money to them to make the problem go away.

[thaicbr]

Sorry to say it, but you obviously weren't a very hot commodity. People that get the heave ho usually aren't the best performers. Just a wild guess, I could be 100% wrong of course.

in the UK or US i would agree... here in Thailand.. maybe not so much... Many Thais have a short term view.

I have known of schools get rid of excellent teachers to replace them with cheaper short term teachers (some good, some not so good)

Edited March 23, 2013 by thaicbr

[WonnabeBiker]

Well, some schools replace all foreign teachers every year. Others replace them with Philippinas. And some directors locate folks in Cameroon or such places who work on a T-Visa and accept 15 k. Saving a month's pay is a big thing - your salary might pay for a wonderful night of boozing with karaoke and a buffet!

There is severance - the teacher should also get a notice period. (Or the contract was to end automatically after a year?). I had no luck with the Labour Dept. but highly recommend to go to the regional Labour Court with a translator.

Got fired in writing?

If you negotiate something, make sure to get a reference.

Good luck!

[colinneil]

One point missing here, many thai teachers work saturdays/ evenings. Farang teachers think after class job finished.

Thai school directors expect all teachers to work outside normal school hours, farangs do not normally do that. that is what they meant when they told op the reason for cutting short the contract.

[Rolo Tomazi]

One point missing here, many thai teachers work saturdays/ evenings. Farang teachers think after class job finished.

Thai school directors expect all teachers to work outside normal school hours, farangs do not normally do that. that is what they meant when they told op the reason for cutting short the contract.

I disagree. Thais know very well that foreigners are different and cut them some slack. They know if they ask foreign teachers to show up every Saturdays that there will be resistance. Most contracts state eight hours a day, mine says 8 to 4:30 with a one-hour lunch break, Monday to Friday. Of course once in a while there may be an activity like a camp which requires the presence on a Saturday but that's an exception. To dismiss a teacher one month before the end of the contract because he didn't work on Saturdays is unusual.

No, IMO there was no reason to fire him, there was only the opportunity to pocket some money so they had to have a reason. When he talked his way out of it, they focused on the next guy. Fired him for a bogus reason and used his salary for vacation money.

[Scott]

Unless you have committed an egregious act, there is a set of procedures that are to be followed in terminating a contract. First is verbal notice and then a period for the person to improve. This is followed by a formal, written notice. If this was not followed, then they are in violation of the policies surrounding dismissal.

[Rolo Tomazi]

"I told them that ....... I disagreed with the way I was been treated. This only created an argument with them telling me that they can end the contract when they wish..."

Like I said before, they do whatever pleases them - ending a contract at any time without verbal warnings or written notices is just what you have to expect.

Consider going to Labor Court? Take a number! What do you think how many thousand teachers are getting screwed every month?

Do you really think an admin cares about being in violation of any policies?

An expensive International School in Bangkok maybe, but the thousands of Government Schools couldn't care less.

I've seen a teacher whose only mistake was to argue back over being paid only half a salary escorted off campus by the police because the headmistress "felt threatened".

She ran out of arguments, realized she's losing face and called the cops!

[thaicbr]

One point missing here, many thai teachers work saturdays/ evenings. Farang teachers think after class job finished.

Thai school directors expect all teachers to work outside normal school hours, farangs do not normally do that. that is what they meant when they told op the reason for cutting short the contract.

One point missing. Most Thai teachers indeed teach after hours and weekends. At the cram schools where the students have to go to learn the exact same subject the teacher is teaching at school. This is not about Thai teachers. Its about yet another school violating a contract. Personally I would be looking for another job if I was the op OR talking to the labour dept making them aware of the problem. They do mediate disputes as well.

[Scott]

I don't have a lot of experience with the Labor Court, but I do know that many schools will pay someone off rather than go through much of a hassle at the court. Where I work, they even have a nice little form for you to sign which basically states both parties are satisfied that there is no further connection or legal issues between them. The school then gives them their pay and a little additional money.

Whether a school is right or wrong, it takes a lot of time and resources to deal with a legal suit. I doubt that a month's pay would be worth hassling over.

[Ijustwannateach]

Ok, the following issues need to be considered:

1. Is this a 'real' job- in other words, a job with a contract, a tax number, a work permit, and an extension of visa based on the work permit? If not, it's hardly worth bothering over any kind of legal approach as though you will most likely win for breach of contract, you can also be held responsible for working illegally.

2. Did you pass the legal maximum probation period (during which you can be fired for any reason)? I am fuzzily of the belief this is about 6 months, but certainly not a full year- schools that want to abuse this provision usually do so at the end of the first term of employment.

3. Did they conform to the notices which Scott mentions above (first a formal verbal warning and then a written warning, with time periods allowed to improve and stipulations about what will constitute improvement)? This only really matters if the job was a 'real' one already after probation (see #1 and 2).

If the answers to those questions are yes, yes, and no; you'd have a case for being fired illegally, though I doubt you would really stand to recover much more than the 1 month of severance to which you would be legally entitled. If they're offering that already, might as well take it and move on to the next job- again as Scott says- this school and you are clearly not well suited for each other for whatever reasons.

[Almera]

When they cancel the work permit and Visa. You now only have 24hours to get a new visa.

Some places will be nice enough to leave the visa etc until expiration. But I doubt these guys will.

You can get a 7 day extension at the immigration office, for 1,900b.

[aidenai]

When they cancel the work permit and Visa. You now only have 24hours to get a new visa.

Some places will be nice enough to leave the visa etc until expiration. But I doubt these guys will.

Unless you're married to a Thai national or have a Thai child. In that case you can apply for a 60 days extension of stay based on Reason of Necessity 2.24.

http://www.immigration.go.th/nov2004/doc/temporarystay/policy777-2551_en.pdf

[siampolee]

Marcorue.

My advise to you is that you would be a wise man or woman to start seeking another position away from your current school.

You have in your eyes indeed won a battle, however you are going to find that you may well have started a war,.

No doubt expectations from your current employer will be increased as will your workload and your paperwork.Petty problems will appear, fine you deal with them however those petty problems tend to compound themselves into a large problem.

I've been involved in education here for some 22 years at all levels and in all schools, government, private, E.P.. and International schools,

The type of school you're at with its management style so visibly demonstrated to you and your departing colleague is indeed a toxic working environment .

Get out quickly,

Plenty of vacancies, remember that at any interview you state what you expect from your prospective employer and let them tell you what they expect from their employees.

You want nay need, work permit, health insurance, paid sick leave, 4 days a year personal business leave ( thats to cover your 90 day reporting procedure) however many schools if they are decent employers will look after your 90 day reporting for you.

Paid holidays all public holidays and a minimum of 30 days a year annual leave and of course a 12 month payment year, possible end of contract or a contract renewal bonus and of course a yearly salary increase, free meals whilst at school and a maximum twenty hours of teaching a week.

That is a basic contract outline which would be on offer from any reasonable employer.

Go and look around, look after yourself, remember a good school deserves 60 minutes of work for every hour they pay you for.woking for them.

Good luck.

Edited March 24, 2013 by siampolee

[colinneil]

Roco tomazi !!most contracts state 8.00 till 4.30 ok, but thai director expect more , thai teachers do more, farangs who insist my contract states! in my opinion leave themselves open for dismissal. Teachers are there to teach/help children. Go the extra mile do a little bit more , i did when i was teaching my contract stated 12 hours per week many weeks i did more than 20, i was helping children only children get a good education.

Any person not prepared to do that !!get out of teaching!!