Judges Finally Agree To Implement U N's Rules On Female Inmates

[Lite Beer]

Judges finally agree to implement UN's rules on female inmates

Thai judges have finally agreed to implement the United Nations' rules on the treatment of female convicts, after years of pressure by international organizations.

According to Appeals Court President Metha Thampanichawat, "most judges" in the country have agreed to take into account the circumstances of female convicts when sentencing them. He cited and endorsed a case in which a female convict was spared a prison sentence because she had a 3-month-old child who needed her care.

Pressure has been put on the Thai judiciary and the Corrections Department for years to implement the United Nations Rules for the Treatment of Women Prisoners and Non-custodial Measures for Women Offenders, also known as the "Bangkok Rules".

But judges only agreed to implement it after HRH Princess Bajra Kitiyabha called for implementation.

Thailand ranks among the world's top five for the highest ratio of female inmates per prison population, according to data by the International Centre for Prison Studies and the UN's Human Development Reports.

-- NNT 2013-03-25

[Myran]

Why should females get special treatment? If you can´t do the time, don´t do the crime.

[Locationthailand]

Precisely, this will all depend on the nature of the crime for compassionate consideration during sentencing. Having a baby would not preclude a 3 month old infant and a mum if it were murder or drug smuggling, but for shoplifting - maybe... but considering defamation gets 18 years and murder 8 - makes me think the whole system is cockeyed anyway.

[MEL1]

Why should females get special treatment? If you can´t do the time, don´t do the crime.

Of course that depends upon the crime, does it dot?

I know of a woman in China who was given 7 years hard labour in prison for stealing 5 bananas, to feed her children.

Ok, China's irrelevant, but similar sentences are dished out here, on the quiet, if a person (female) can't afford to pay the graft to get off!

The UN had real purpose to get this controlled treatment of women implemented, and my hat goes of to it!

-mel.

[sprq]

Why should females get special treatment? If you can´t do the time, don´t do the crime.

How come it's always the idiots who get to post first?

And usually with some ridiculous cliche?

[fire and ice]

Why should females get special treatment? If you can´t do the time, don´t do the crime.

How come it's always the idiots who get to post first?

And usually with some ridiculous cliche?

Because idiots like to convince themselves they are smart by citing sound-bytes of things they think are hallmarks of wisdom, but as it only requires typing out a sound byte (cliché) they can do it very quickly before any intelligent (or wise) person has had a chance to type a considered and well thought out reply.

I can just see their though process (akin to Homer Simpson’s mind monkeys on a good day): "Oh!! I know a cool sounding quote. And since it’s a quote it must be correct and smart. Now I can show off (to myself) how smart I am by typing it out here...". ……My all-time favourite is "But you can’t generalise" - that one is so seriously "blonde" that it’s even a contradiction of itself. I don’t bother continuing a conversation if I hear that, it’s just pointless.

....not to mention other idiots attempting to go beyond their normal sound-byte abilities with even greater rubbish (but not as fast). But these ones spend time taxing their brains to overload so although other rubbish may come out later the fact another idiot puts genuine personal effort in is of course no guarantee of quality.

Edited March 25, 2013 by fire and ice

[khaowong1]

I'm surprised, but happy, after all the "the UN is not my father" rhetoric..

[Emdog]

"Thailand ranks among the world's top five for the highest ratio of female inmates per prison population".... hmmm perhaps because they do more crime than most places? Raised on larceny?

[FDog]

Why should females get special treatment? If you can´t do the time, don´t do the crime.

Have to agree. As women are all for equality why don't men with babies get the same consideration?

[Nisa]

Why should females get special treatment? If you can´t do the time, don´t do the crime.

Have to agree. As women are all for equality why don't men with babies get the same consideration?

Because it is not that common for men to be a single parent taking care of a baby let alone finding too many in Thailand providing financially for their child if single. Edited March 25, 2013 by Nisa

[wjthornton]

I am constantly shocked at what people without any personal experience of Thai prisons or the so-called justice system here write about doing time in Thai prisons, so I'm writing a veritable essay, even though it may fall on deaf ears. I personally know a 24-year old university student, the recipient of awards for good citizenship with no priors, doing 20 years in maximum security for a white collar crime she didn't commit because the police were bribed to falsify the report, her lawyer didn't show up, and the judge refused to allow an appeal.

Do you know how many scam artists there are in Thai villages taking advantage of people's ignorance of the law? The so-called village lawyers may be no better than the scam artists. If you have to defend yourself in a Thai court without an attorney, how well do you think you would fare, regardless of your innocence? All it takes is a group of Thais to organize a case against you--your fine upstanding citizens think nothing of perjuring themselves for the economic advantage of their family, and I wonder if it is even a crime in the LOS.

How many arm-chair justices know that Thai law guarantees the prisoner 1.5 square meters living space, which is the absolute minimum, compared to 10 square meters in the USA? Yet Thai prisons are overcrowded 3X the legal limit so the average prisoner gets less than a square meter for living space, and there is no legal recourse to hold the government accountable.

Do you have any idea how crowded that is? Prisoners literally have to walk on each other's bodies to get to the open hole in the corner that serves as the toilet for 50 or more inmates in a 20 square meter room. Do you have any idea how hot that room gets with bodies literally stacked like sardines in a can? This is against Thai law and any kind of humane standards, regardless of whether it is women or men. Westerners often get sick and die under these conditions, but Thais accept it without complaining, and so it doesn't change.

Without a good lawyer, the court ignores first time offenses or extenuating circumstances. A person simply riding on a motorbike with a friend who has a few hits of speed can get a 10 year sentence under those brutal and illegal conditions. Poor women--single mothers in particular--are more likely to be the victims of guilt by association, given their abject poverty and the way they are condemned to subservience to whatever man will help them survive. You can talk about equal rights when a man who gets a woman pregnant is kicked out of school and forced to take care of the baby! Or when a man submits to a life of prostitution to take care of the baby and the grandmother who winds up raising the baby.

Women are obviously more likely to commit crimes of survival, especially when they have a newborn baby abandoned by a brutal alcoholic father. What legal options are provided by Thai society for them to survive? The UN seems to recognize that babies abandoned by the mother--to pay what you all seem to think are her debts to society-- are more likely to continue the cylce of crime arising from ignorance and poverty. How is that paying off any debts to anyone?

A just legal system determines the debt of the felon based on how much society has actually invested. It is hard to talk about the debt of someone who has been abused and misused her whole life. The UN mandate seems to recognize that women are more often subjected to sexual abuse and economic exploitation than men, and these circumstances should reduce their debt. In many cases it is society that owes the woman--and her baby--rather than the other way around. .

Civilization requires investing in the youth--and their families--believing in the potential of people, regardless of the circumstances of their birth, to repay that investment through creative and useful activity. It is not about "paying debts" by being tortured at public expense in inhumane conditions.

[Honkytowner]

I am constantly shocked at what people without any personal experience of Thai prisons or the so-called justice system here write about doing time in Thai prisons, so I'm writing a veritable essay, even though it may fall on deaf ears. I personally know a 24-year old university student, the recipient of awards for good citizenship with no priors, doing 20 years in maximum security for a white collar crime she didn't commit because the police were bribed to falsify the report, her lawyer didn't show up, and the judge refused to allow an appeal.

Do you know how many scam artists there are in Thai villages taking advantage of people's ignorance of the law? The so-called village lawyers may be no better than the scam artists. If you have to defend yourself in a Thai court without an attorney, how well do you think you would fare, regardless of your innocence? All it takes is a group of Thais to organize a case against you--your fine upstanding citizens think nothing of perjuring themselves for the economic advantage of their family, and I wonder if it is even a crime in the LOS.

How many arm-chair justices know that Thai law guarantees the prisoner 1.5 square meters living space, which is the absolute minimum, compared to 10 square meters in the USA? Yet Thai prisons are overcrowded 3X the legal limit so the average prisoner gets less than a square meter for living space, and there is no legal recourse to hold the government accountable.

Do you have any idea how crowded that is? Prisoners literally have to walk on each other's bodies to get to the open hole in the corner that serves as the toilet for 50 or more inmates in a 20 square meter room. Do you have any idea how hot that room gets with bodies literally stacked like sardines in a can? This is against Thai law and any kind of humane standards, regardless of whether it is women or men. Westerners often get sick and die under these conditions, but Thais accept it without complaining, and so it doesn't change.

Without a good lawyer, the court ignores first time offenses or extenuating circumstances. A person simply riding on a motorbike with a friend who has a few hits of speed can get a 10 year sentence under those brutal and illegal conditions. Poor women--single mothers in particular--are more likely to be the victims of guilt by association, given their abject poverty and the way they are condemned to subservience to whatever man will help them survive. You can talk about equal rights when a man who gets a woman pregnant is kicked out of school and forced to take care of the baby! Or when a man submits to a life of prostitution to take care of the baby and the grandmother who winds up raising the baby.

Women are obviously more likely to commit crimes of survival, especially when they have a newborn baby abandoned by a brutal alcoholic father. What legal options are provided by Thai society for them to survive? The UN seems to recognize that babies abandoned by the mother--to pay what you all seem to think are her debts to society-- are more likely to continue the cylce of crime arising from ignorance and poverty. How is that paying off any debts to anyone?

A just legal system determines the debt of the felon based on how much society has actually invested. It is hard to talk about the debt of someone who has been abused and misused her whole life. The UN mandate seems to recognize that women are more often subjected to sexual abuse and economic exploitation than men, and these circumstances should reduce their debt. In many cases it is society that owes the woman--and her baby--rather than the other way around. .

Civilization requires investing in the youth--and their families--believing in the potential of people, regardless of the circumstances of their birth, to repay that investment through creative and useful activity. It is not about "paying debts" by being tortured at public expense in inhumane conditions.

Bravo, wjthornton. This needed to be said, and read!

[smotherb]

Why should females get special treatment? If you can´t do the time, don´t do the crime.

How come it's always the idiots who get to post first?

And usually with some ridiculous cliche?

Because idiots like to convince themselves they are smart by citing sound-bytes of things they think are hallmarks of wisdom, but as it only requires typing out a sound byte (cliché) they can do it very quickly before any intelligent (or wise) person has had a chance to type a considered and well thought out reply.

I can just see their though process (akin to Homer Simpson’s mind monkeys on a good day): "Oh!! I know a cool sounding quote. And since it’s a quote it must be correct and smart. Now I can show off (to myself) how smart I am by typing it out here...". ……My all-time favourite is "But you can’t generalise" - that one is so seriously "blonde" that it’s even a contradiction of itself. I don’t bother continuing a conversation if I hear that, it’s just pointless.

....not to mention other idiots attempting to go beyond their normal sound-byte abilities with even greater rubbish (but not as fast). But these ones spend time taxing their brains to overload so although other rubbish may come out later the fact another idiot puts genuine personal effort in is of course no guarantee of quality.

I do believe you have provided the perfect example of which you speak.

[Dap]

"Thailand ranks among the world's top five for the highest ratio of female inmates per prison population".... hmmm perhaps because they do more crime than most places? Raised on larceny?

Or just maybe, because we don't get the stats from places like DR Congo, Pakistan or Iraq etc.

[jackspratt]

Why should females get special treatment? If you can´t do the time, don´t do the crime.

How come it's always the idiots who get to post first?

And usually with some ridiculous cliche?

Because idiots like to convince themselves they are smart by citing sound-bytes of things they think are hallmarks of wisdom, but as it only requires typing out a sound byte (cliché) they can do it very quickly before any intelligent (or wise) person has had a chance to type a considered and well thought out reply.

I can just see their though process (akin to Homer Simpson’s mind monkeys on a good day): "Oh!! I know a cool sounding quote. And since it’s a quote it must be correct and smart. Now I can show off (to myself) how smart I am by typing it out here...". ……My all-time favourite is "But you can’t generalise" - that one is so seriously "blonde" that it’s even a contradiction of itself. I don’t bother continuing a conversation if I hear that, it’s just pointless.

....not to mention other idiots attempting to go beyond their normal sound-byte abilities with even greater rubbish (but not as fast). But these ones spend time taxing their brains to overload so although other rubbish may come out later the fact another idiot puts genuine personal effort in is of course no guarantee of quality.

I do believe you have provided the perfect example of which you speak.

Bingo fire and ice - smotherb is right on cue.

[nakhonandy]

I am constantly shocked at what people without any personal experience of Thai prisons or the so-called justice system here write about doing time in Thai prisons, so I'm writing a veritable essay, even though it may fall on deaf ears. I personally know a 24-year old university student, the recipient of awards for good citizenship with no priors, doing 20 years in maximum security for a white collar crime she didn't commit because the police were bribed to falsify the report, her lawyer didn't show up, and the judge refused to allow an appeal.

Do you know how many scam artists there are in Thai villages taking advantage of people's ignorance of the law? The so-called village lawyers may be no better than the scam artists. If you have to defend yourself in a Thai court without an attorney, how well do you think you would fare, regardless of your innocence? All it takes is a group of Thais to organize a case against you--your fine upstanding citizens think nothing of perjuring themselves for the economic advantage of their family, and I wonder if it is even a crime in the LOS.

How many arm-chair justices know that Thai law guarantees the prisoner 1.5 square meters living space, which is the absolute minimum, compared to 10 square meters in the USA? Yet Thai prisons are overcrowded 3X the legal limit so the average prisoner gets less than a square meter for living space, and there is no legal recourse to hold the government accountable.

Do you have any idea how crowded that is? Prisoners literally have to walk on each other's bodies to get to the open hole in the corner that serves as the toilet for 50 or more inmates in a 20 square meter room. Do you have any idea how hot that room gets with bodies literally stacked like sardines in a can? This is against Thai law and any kind of humane standards, regardless of whether it is women or men. Westerners often get sick and die under these conditions, but Thais accept it without complaining, and so it doesn't change.

Without a good lawyer, the court ignores first time offenses or extenuating circumstances. A person simply riding on a motorbike with a friend who has a few hits of speed can get a 10 year sentence under those brutal and illegal conditions. Poor women--single mothers in particular--are more likely to be the victims of guilt by association, given their abject poverty and the way they are condemned to subservience to whatever man will help them survive. You can talk about equal rights when a man who gets a woman pregnant is kicked out of school and forced to take care of the baby! Or when a man submits to a life of prostitution to take care of the baby and the grandmother who winds up raising the baby.

Women are obviously more likely to commit crimes of survival, especially when they have a newborn baby abandoned by a brutal alcoholic father. What legal options are provided by Thai society for them to survive? The UN seems to recognize that babies abandoned by the mother--to pay what you all seem to think are her debts to society-- are more likely to continue the cylce of crime arising from ignorance and poverty. How is that paying off any debts to anyone?

A just legal system determines the debt of the felon based on how much society has actually invested. It is hard to talk about the debt of someone who has been abused and misused her whole life. The UN mandate seems to recognize that women are more often subjected to sexual abuse and economic exploitation than men, and these circumstances should reduce their debt. In many cases it is society that owes the woman--and her baby--rather than the other way around. .

Civilization requires investing in the youth--and their families--believing in the potential of people, regardless of the circumstances of their birth, to repay that investment through creative and useful activity. It is not about "paying debts" by being tortured at public expense in inhumane conditions.

Agree 100%.

They really need to look at reforming the entire penal system.

I know there is talk of dishing out less custodial terms for minor offenses and using anklebands etc.

Remains to be seen if this happens though.

[kimamey]

Why should females get special treatment? If you can´t do the time, don´t do the crime.

How come it's always the idiots who get to post first?

And usually with some ridiculous cliche?

Because idiots like to convince themselves they are smart by citing sound-bytes of things they think are hallmarks of wisdom, but as it only requires typing out a sound byte (cliché) they can do it very quickly before any intelligent (or wise) person has had a chance to type a considered and well thought out reply.

I can just see their though process (akin to Homer Simpson’s mind monkeys on a good day): "Oh!! I know a cool sounding quote. And since it’s a quote it must be correct and smart. Now I can show off (to myself) how smart I am by typing it out here...". ……My all-time favourite is "But you can’t generalise" - that one is so seriously "blonde" that it’s even a contradiction of itself. I don’t bother continuing a conversation if I hear that, it’s just pointless.

....not to mention other idiots attempting to go beyond their normal sound-byte abilities with even greater rubbish (but not as fast). But these ones spend time taxing their brains to overload so although other rubbish may come out later the fact another idiot puts genuine personal effort in is of course no guarantee of quality.

Quite right, who needs quick sound bites when we only have to wait for someone to bring us their well balanced views. I'll add another reply once I've researched this Homer chap.

[maidu]

Precisely, this will all depend on the nature of the crime for compassionate consideration during sentencing. Having a baby would not preclude a 3 month old infant and a mum if it were murder or drug smuggling, but for shoplifting - maybe... but considering defamation gets 18 years and murder 8 - makes me think the whole system is cockeyed anyway.

You put murder and drug smuggling in the same category, but I don't see them that way. The Thai women doing decades of time in HK and Vietnamese prisons for being mules, ......is overwrought. Sure they may have been very stupid and/or very desperate, but being stupid or gullible, or desperate for money is not grounds to lock someone away for decades.

Each drug-running case should be looked at for what it is - not for what might become worst case scenario (hordes of drug-crazed people running around looting and killing). That's like looking at a bottle of whiskey and imagining 20 drunks running around stabbing people (similar to what happens every day - via alcohol-fueled crimes).

[kimamey]

Why should females get special treatment? If you can´t do the time, don´t do the crime.

Have to agree. As women are all for equality why don't men with babies get the same consideration?

Because it is not that common for men to be a single parent taking care of a baby let alone finding too many in Thailand providing financially for their child if single.

So if a man, who may or may not be Thai commits a crime but is a single parent and is also providing financial support, their circumstances shouldn't be taken into consideration because there aren't many of them. I think you should read your post again without the sexually biased slant.

[Locationthailand]

Precisely, this will all depend on the nature of the crime for compassionate consideration during sentencing. Having a baby would not preclude a 3 month old infant and a mum if it were murder or drug smuggling, but for shoplifting - maybe... but considering defamation gets 18 years and murder 8 - makes me think the whole system is cockeyed anyway.

You put murder and drug smuggling in the same category, but I don't see them that way. The Thai women doing decades of time in HK and Vietnamese prisons for being mules, ......is overwrought. Sure they may have been very stupid and/or very desperate, but being stupid or gullible, or desperate for money is not grounds to lock someone away for decades.

Each drug-running case should be looked at for what it is - not for what might become worst case scenario (hordes of drug-crazed people running around looting and killing). That's like looking at a bottle of whiskey and imagining 20 drunks running around stabbing people (similar to what happens every day - via alcohol-fueled crimes).

True Maidu, I do include them together as one is instantaneous, the other just takes a bit longer. The person looking for the fast buck, being manipulated by the drug mafia's is just as guilty by being an accomplice to murder. Also agree - they are very stupid, lazy or desperate and each one should be adjudicated as it is. That would depend on the quantity in question and the circumstances that got them there but yes, I would incarcerate them for a lengthy period. I have been a registered member of my home state justice department since 1982 and have had the privilege of adjudicating in magistrates courts. It is for this reason I take this stance. I used to take school kids to Kings Cross in Sydney and walk them down the joining lanes between the Cross and surrounding streets where they would see literally hundreds of needles, broken smoking implements and so on. They would also see young girls and men prostituting themselves as well as the occasional OD being removed by ambulance. It was a great deterrent to these kids and many have stayed in touch thanking me for the 'lesson'. At least that if expounded, will save a few more people from seeing the inside of jails or a funeral parlour. Thanks for you comments.

[chooka]

Why should females get special treatment? If you can´t do the time, don´t do the crime.

Have to agree. As women are all for equality why don't men with babies get the same consideration?

Because it is not that common for men to be a single parent taking care of a baby let alone finding too many in Thailand providing financially for their child if single.

regardless of whether it is common or not, lets look at it from a non sexist point. Look at it from a sole parent (male/female) point. Some men regardless of how much you hate them Nisa (I take it you are a woman by the name) are sole parents with children.

[Nisa]

Why should females get special treatment? If you can´t do the time, don´t do the crime.

Have to agree. As women are all for equality why don't men with babies get the same consideration?

Because it is not that common for men to be a single parent taking care of a baby let alone finding too many in Thailand providing financially for their child if single.

So if a man, who may or may not be Thai commits a crime but is a single parent and is also providing financial support, their circumstances shouldn't be taken into consideration because there aren't many of them. I think you should read your post again without the sexually biased slant.

How many times in Thailand or anywhere else do you hear about a single father with a baby being sent to jail? In fact, how many do you know vs. single mothers with babies. A single father raising a bay on their own would automatically be at an advantage just for his character of doing this while it is simply expected of a women.

I thought it was obvious this OP was about Women's rights and addressing a broad issue and not a much rarer one. Men don't breast feed, men don't become pregnant and in the vast majority of cases men don't raise babies alone.

I am sure there are organizations and committees within them that speak directly to sentencing issues including extenuating circumstances that should be considered but again, I think this had more to do with women rights because believe it or not women and men are different including the obvious physical differences there are the facts they are generally less violent, less likely to be arrested again, are much more often single parents and generally make less income as men.

Edited March 27, 2013 by Nisa

[Nisa]

Why should females get special treatment? If you can´t do the time, don´t do the crime.

Have to agree. As women are all for equality why don't men with babies get the same consideration?

Because it is not that common for men to be a single parent taking care of a baby let alone finding too many in Thailand providing financially for their child if single.

regardless of whether it is common or not, lets look at it from a non sexist point. Look at it from a sole parent (male/female) point. Some men regardless of how much you hate them Nisa (I take it you are a woman by the name) are sole parents with children.

The OP is talking about women's rights and not prison or sentencing reform except how it applies to women. You are seeing this no differently than if you complained about groups who advocate women's right for equal pay are being unfair because they are not addressing the broader issue of companies paying more to all workers instead of so much to the executives.

From 2010:

The Bangkok Rules are new in the sense that they are the first specific UN standards for the treatment of women offenders. The UN Standard Minimum Rules for the Treatment of Prisoners (SMR), adopted more than 50 years ago (1955), did not draw sufficient attention to women’s particular needs. (PDF, 106 KB)

http://www.ihra.net/contents/811

[kimamey]

Sorry I haven't got time to remove excess quotes Nisa.

I was simply replying to your post which seemed to suggest that a woman who was looking after a child should have that taken into account but a man shouldn't because it isn't common. If the premise is sound which it probably is in general terms then it should be applied to men as well as women. I'm fully aware of the fact that women are different and more likely to be single parents particularly in Thailand. I have also known a man in the UK who was a single parent and seen the problems he had because he was male and therefore he wasn't a single mother. Help was aimed at single mothers NOT single parents.

It's the circumstances that count not the gender.

[kimamey]

I am constantly shocked at what people without any personal experience of Thai prisons or the so-called justice system here write about doing time in Thai prisons, so I'm writing a veritable essay, even though it may fall on deaf ears. I personally know a 24-year old university student, the recipient of awards for good citizenship with no priors, doing 20 years in maximum security for a white collar crime she didn't commit because the police were bribed to falsify the report, her lawyer didn't show up, and the judge refused to allow an appeal.

Do you know how many scam artists there are in Thai villages taking advantage of people's ignorance of the law? The so-called village lawyers may be no better than the scam artists. If you have to defend yourself in a Thai court without an attorney, how well do you think you would fare, regardless of your innocence? All it takes is a group of Thais to organize a case against you--your fine upstanding citizens think nothing of perjuring themselves for the economic advantage of their family, and I wonder if it is even a crime in the LOS.

How many arm-chair justices know that Thai law guarantees the prisoner 1.5 square meters living space, which is the absolute minimum, compared to 10 square meters in the USA? Yet Thai prisons are overcrowded 3X the legal limit so the average prisoner gets less than a square meter for living space, and there is no legal recourse to hold the government accountable.

Do you have any idea how crowded that is? Prisoners literally have to walk on each other's bodies to get to the open hole in the corner that serves as the toilet for 50 or more inmates in a 20 square meter room. Do you have any idea how hot that room gets with bodies literally stacked like sardines in a can? This is against Thai law and any kind of humane standards, regardless of whether it is women or men. Westerners often get sick and die under these conditions, but Thais accept it without complaining, and so it doesn't change.

Without a good lawyer, the court ignores first time offenses or extenuating circumstances. A person simply riding on a motorbike with a friend who has a few hits of speed can get a 10 year sentence under those brutal and illegal conditions. Poor women--single mothers in particular--are more likely to be the victims of guilt by association, given their abject poverty and the way they are condemned to subservience to whatever man will help them survive. You can talk about equal rights when a man who gets a woman pregnant is kicked out of school and forced to take care of the baby! Or when a man submits to a life of prostitution to take care of the baby and the grandmother who winds up raising the baby.

Women are obviously more likely to commit crimes of survival, especially when they have a newborn baby abandoned by a brutal alcoholic father. What legal options are provided by Thai society for them to survive? The UN seems to recognize that babies abandoned by the mother--to pay what you all seem to think are her debts to society-- are more likely to continue the cylce of crime arising from ignorance and poverty. How is that paying off any debts to anyone?

A just legal system determines the debt of the felon based on how much society has actually invested. It is hard to talk about the debt of someone who has been abused and misused her whole life. The UN mandate seems to recognize that women are more often subjected to sexual abuse and economic exploitation than men, and these circumstances should reduce their debt. In many cases it is society that owes the woman--and her baby--rather than the other way around. .

Civilization requires investing in the youth--and their families--believing in the potential of people, regardless of the circumstances of their birth, to repay that investment through creative and useful activity. It is not about "paying debts" by being tortured at public expense in inhumane conditions.

All very interesting and valid points but I don't think that was what the OP was about.

[Nisa]

Sorry I haven't got time to remove excess quotes Nisa.

I was simply replying to your post which seemed to suggest that a woman who was looking after a child should have that taken into account but a man shouldn't because it isn't common. If the premise is sound which it probably is in general terms then it should be applied to men as well as women. I'm fully aware of the fact that women are different and more likely to be single parents particularly in Thailand. I have also known a man in the UK who was a single parent and seen the problems he had because he was male and therefore he wasn't a single mother. Help was aimed at single mothers NOT single parents.

It's the circumstances that count not the gender.

Again you are missing the point that the OP is about protecting women's rights and nobody has remotely suggested that anything about a single father raising a baby as it has nothing to do with this issues that was specifically related to concerns of women including issues such as breat feeding and being pregnant being considered.

You comment about knowing a guy in the UK who is a single parent. It should make you realize just how uncommon it is, not just in Thailand, for men to be taking care of a baby on their own. But more importantly you are missing the point that this is mainly a women's issue and is just one of the issues listed that should be taking into consideration in regards to considerations of women being sentenced because when the UN came up with the suggested guidelines years ago they ignored women's issues such as being pregnant and breastfeeding as well as being a single parent to an baby / infant which is not uncommon.

Things that are considered during sentencing in most places is the person's character and if they have a steady job, is the bread winner of the family and their standing in the community. If a man is a single parent and taking care of a baby then you can be fairly confident that because this is so uncommon that it would truly be considered during sentencing while a single mother with a baby are a dime a dozen and the child services organizations are full of babies taking away from their mom who are serving time.

But yes,men should have the same considerations as women and this is why they guidelines were revised to specially speak of women who were not considered when they were written. And when there is any measurable number of single father's being sentence to prison while raising a baby or who are pregnant or breast feeding or at risk for women's health issues then I am sure they will revisit the guidelines again.

Edited March 28, 2013 by Nisa