How Do I Gather Evidence That My Wife Is Living In Thailand And Not In Switzerland

[migangae]

Dear all,

I am looking for advise: My Swiss wife has been living separately from me for more then 4 years in a different household here in Thailand. Out of the blue last month she sued me in the Swiss court for unilateral divorce claiming that she has taken residency/domicile in Switzerland two months ago. But as a matter of fact I know she has spent all of her time in the past 3 months here in Thailand except for 5 days in Switzerland and one week in South America.

My question is: How and what type of evidence can I collect here in Thailand to be presented to the Swiss judge that actually she has been staying and living most of her time here in Thailand? That she did not move her domicile to Switzerland nor does she has any real intentions to move there? I understand that credit card records and telephone bills would do the job, but since our marriage is not registered here in Thailand (however the Thai court did acknowledge our marriage in writing) I cannot get my hands on this type of information.

Any suggestion is appreciated! Thanks in advance.

[wolf5370]

Best proof would be photo copies of her passport - would show leaving and entering Thailand (and South America). How you lay your hands on that is another matter - I guess there are ways, but none best talked about here (I'm sure you can use your imagination) - also be careful she does not also use this site.

//edit: Typo

Edited March 28, 2013 by wolf5370

[Satcommlee]

Surely if you claim this is not true then the remedy would be for the court to request proof of her domicile?

A job for a lawyer and maybe not Thaivisa!

[manarak]

Best proof would be photo copies of her passport - would show leaving and entering Thailand (and South America). How you lay your hands on that is another matter - I guess there are ways, but none best talked about here (I'm sure you can use your imagination) - also be careful she does not also use this site.

//edit: Typo

If she's got only one passport that is the best way.

[migangae]

thanks everybody for the feedback. My lawyer tells me that we cannot use the Thai court to get any mentioned information since she is suing in Switzerland. This contradicts the view of Satcommlee, who maybe has a better understanding then my lawyer?

[wolf5370]

thanks everybody for the feedback. My lawyer tells me that we cannot use the Thai court to get any mentioned information since she is suing in Switzerland. This contradicts the view of Satcommlee, who maybe has a better understanding then my lawyer?

Your Thai lawyer? Or Swiss one? The Swiss one can surely ask her to prove this domicile change by submitting sworn copies of her passport visa pages - in Switzerland?

[NeverSure]

If it's filed in a Swiss court, you need a Swiss attorney. You can put the burden on her to prove she has been living there. She made the claim. The Swiss attorney will file a motion with the court denying it, and she will have to prove it. The attorney can also ask the court to make her produce her passport(s.)

The term is "legal standing" in English. She doesn't have "standing" to file the action and that is the objection, due to lack of residency. Then she will have to prove she has standing or the case won't proceed.

[I Like Thai]

Why are you objecting to the Divorce ?

[Mario2008]

If it's filed in a Swiss court, you need a Swiss attorney. You can put the burden on her to prove she has been living there. She made the claim. The Swiss attorney will file a motion with the court denying it, and she will have to prove it. The attorney can also ask the court to make her produce her passport(s.)

The term is "legal standing" in English. She doesn't have "standing" to file the action and that is the objection, due to lack of residency. Then she will have to prove she has standing or the case won't proceed.

Totally agree.

To the OP: Seems your wife wants a divorce, and in the end she is going to get it. Might be better to try and negotiate with her on the terms of the divorce, might safe prolonged judicial procedures, lawyer fees and lot of headache for the both of you.

[Swiss1960]

thanks everybody for the feedback. My lawyer tells me that we cannot use the Thai court to get any mentioned information since she is suing in Switzerland. This contradicts the view of Satcommlee, who maybe has a better understanding then my lawyer?

I don't know why this would help you?

You said in a previous thread that your wife has a Swiss passport and therefore, she has the right at anytime to go back to Switzerland and register herself in a Swiss city. That then is the city she can file her divorce, since you are married under Swiss law. If she want's, she can leave Switzerland the next day but remain registered in Switzerland, as long as she pays her taxes and makes sure, her post gets picked up and dealt with...

IF you would prove to the court that actually she does not live there, the only thing that would happen is that the current court would reject the divorce claim and advise her to enter her divorce in the competent court in your (joint) "Heimatort".

So, i really don't see why your lawyer is asking for prove that she is not living in Switzerland, except for getting a delay in your wife's divorce claim?

[Satcommlee]

thanks everybody for the feedback. My lawyer tells me that we cannot use the Thai court to get any mentioned information since she is suing in Switzerland. This contradicts the view of Satcommlee, who maybe has a better understanding then my lawyer?

I didn't mean in a Thai court, I meant the Swiss Court could ask for evidence.

[Mrjlh]

Subpoena her passport. History is all there.

[manarak]

thanks everybody for the feedback. My lawyer tells me that we cannot use the Thai court to get any mentioned information since she is suing in Switzerland. This contradicts the view of Satcommlee, who maybe has a better understanding then my lawyer?

I don't know why this would help you?

You said in a previous thread that your wife has a Swiss passport and therefore, she has the right at anytime to go back to Switzerland and register herself in a Swiss city. That then is the city she can file her divorce, since you are married under Swiss law. If she want's, she can leave Switzerland the next day but remain registered in Switzerland, as long as she pays her taxes and makes sure, her post gets picked up and dealt with...

IF you would prove to the court that actually she does not live there, the only thing that would happen is that the current court would reject the divorce claim and advise her to enter her divorce in the competent court in your (joint) "Heimatort".

So, i really don't see why your lawyer is asking for prove that she is not living in Switzerland, except for getting a delay in your wife's divorce claim?

Good advice here.

Maybe there is more to this story - the wife has "a Swiss passport" - which kind of implies she also has other passports to travel with.

The marriage may not have been contracted in Switzerland (possibly Thailand?), but the wife may want to use a Swiss judge to get better settlement, even though the Swiss judge will have to apply the foreign Law the foreign marriage was contracted under.

But to call on a Swiss court, one of the parties needs to be domiciled in Switzerland. I don't if there are some provisions for acquiring legal domicile in Switzerland beyond registering an address at the Einwohnerkontrolle, and if the court would declare itself incomptetent if the registration of domicile in Switzerland was proven to be a manipulation....

[Swiss1960]

thanks everybody for the feedback. My lawyer tells me that we cannot use the Thai court to get any mentioned information since she is suing in Switzerland. This contradicts the view of Satcommlee, who maybe has a better understanding then my lawyer?

I don't know why this would help you?

You said in a previous thread that your wife has a Swiss passport and therefore, she has the right at anytime to go back to Switzerland and register herself in a Swiss city. That then is the city she can file her divorce, since you are married under Swiss law. If she want's, she can leave Switzerland the next day but remain registered in Switzerland, as long as she pays her taxes and makes sure, her post gets picked up and dealt with...

IF you would prove to the court that actually she does not live there, the only thing that would happen is that the current court would reject the divorce claim and advise her to enter her divorce in the competent court in your (joint) "Heimatort".

So, i really don't see why your lawyer is asking for prove that she is not living in Switzerland, except for getting a delay in your wife's divorce claim?

Good advice here.

Maybe there is more to this story - the wife has "a Swiss passport" - which kind of implies she also has other passports to travel with.

The marriage may not have been contracted in Switzerland (possibly Thailand?), but the wife may want to use a Swiss judge to get better settlement, even though the Swiss judge will have to apply the foreign Law the foreign marriage was contracted under.

But to call on a Swiss court, one of the parties needs to be domiciled in Switzerland. I don't if there are some provisions for acquiring legal domicile in Switzerland beyond registering an address at the Einwohnerkontrolle, and if the court would declare itself incomptetent if the registration of domicile in Switzerland was proven to be a manipulation....

In his previous thread here the Op mentioned that he was legally married in Switzerland and his Thai wife also has a Swiss passport. Based on that information

* if one partner lives in Switzerland (is registered in Switzerland) and the other partner lives abroad, then the competent court is to be found in the place where the partner lives in Switzerland.

* if both partners live abroad, then the competent court is in the jurisdiction where the partners have their "Heimatort".

A Thai court is not competent to dissolve a Swiss marriage that was not registered in Thailand. The Op's wife did chose the way to get registered back in Switzerland and as long as the court who now has the case on the table does accept that registration, they will continue the case. If the Op can prove that the registration is a sham, the only thing that would happen is that his wife will have to find the competent court for the divorce in the "Heimatort" and file again. But the Swiss court ARE responsible for the divorce.

[manarak]

thanks everybody for the feedback. My lawyer tells me that we cannot use the Thai court to get any mentioned information since she is suing in Switzerland. This contradicts the view of Satcommlee, who maybe has a better understanding then my lawyer?

I don't know why this would help you?

You said in a previous thread that your wife has a Swiss passport and therefore, she has the right at anytime to go back to Switzerland and register herself in a Swiss city. That then is the city she can file her divorce, since you are married under Swiss law. If she want's, she can leave Switzerland the next day but remain registered in Switzerland, as long as she pays her taxes and makes sure, her post gets picked up and dealt with...

IF you would prove to the court that actually she does not live there, the only thing that would happen is that the current court would reject the divorce claim and advise her to enter her divorce in the competent court in your (joint) "Heimatort".

So, i really don't see why your lawyer is asking for prove that she is not living in Switzerland, except for getting a delay in your wife's divorce claim?

Good advice here.

Maybe there is more to this story - the wife has "a Swiss passport" - which kind of implies she also has other passports to travel with.

The marriage may not have been contracted in Switzerland (possibly Thailand?), but the wife may want to use a Swiss judge to get better settlement, even though the Swiss judge will have to apply the foreign Law the foreign marriage was contracted under.

But to call on a Swiss court, one of the parties needs to be domiciled in Switzerland. I don't if there are some provisions for acquiring legal domicile in Switzerland beyond registering an address at the Einwohnerkontrolle, and if the court would declare itself incomptetent if the registration of domicile in Switzerland was proven to be a manipulation....

In his previous thread here the Op mentioned that he was legally married in Switzerland and his Thai wife also has a Swiss passport. Based on that information

* if one partner lives in Switzerland (is registered in Switzerland) and the other partner lives abroad, then the competent court is to be found in the place where the partner lives in Switzerland.

* if both partners live abroad, then the competent court is in the jurisdiction where the partners have their "Heimatort".

A Thai court is not competent to dissolve a Swiss marriage that was not registered in Thailand. The Op's wife did chose the way to get registered back in Switzerland and as long as the court who now has the case on the table does accept that registration, they will continue the case. If the Op can prove that the registration is a sham, the only thing that would happen is that his wife will have to find the competent court for the divorce in the "Heimatort" and file again. But the Swiss court ARE responsible for the divorce.

the situation is then crystal clear

[Jawnie]

It seems to me that if she is suing you in Switzerland and putting the place of domicile at issue, you have the right to contest where she claims to live. You should be able to force her to provide her passport to the court to prove or disprove her claim regarding where she lives and for how long. Nothing really tricky about it, plead it to the court - your lawyer can do it.

[Keith67]

thanks everybody for the feedback. My lawyer tells me that we cannot use the Thai court to get any mentioned information since she is suing in Switzerland. This contradicts the view of Satcommlee, who maybe has a better understanding then my lawyer?

I don't know why this would help you?

You said in a previous thread that your wife has a Swiss passport and therefore, she has the right at anytime to go back to Switzerland and register herself in a Swiss city. That then is the city she can file her divorce, since you are married under Swiss law. If she want's, she can leave Switzerland the next day but remain registered in Switzerland, as long as she pays her taxes and makes sure, her post gets picked up and dealt with...

IF you would prove to the court that actually she does not live there, the only thing that would happen is that the current court would reject the divorce claim and advise her to enter her divorce in the competent court in your (joint) "Heimatort".

So, i really don't see why your lawyer is asking for prove that she is not living in Switzerland, except for getting a delay in your wife's divorce claim?

Good advice here.

Maybe there is more to this story - the wife has "a Swiss passport" - which kind of implies she also has other passports to travel with.

The marriage may not have been contracted in Switzerland (possibly Thailand?), but the wife may want to use a Swiss judge to get better settlement, even though the Swiss judge will have to apply the foreign Law the foreign marriage was contracted under.

But to call on a Swiss court, one of the parties needs to be domiciled in Switzerland. I don't if there are some provisions for acquiring legal domicile in Switzerland beyond registering an address at the Einwohnerkontrolle, and if the court would declare itself incomptetent if the registration of domicile in Switzerland was proven to be a manipulation....

A confirmation letter from Swiss immigration as to her entry into Switzerland over the past 6 mths would do the trick, a Swiss lawyer or court should be able to request this should they not,

[manarak]

A confirmation letter from Swiss immigration as to her entry into Switzerland over the past 6 mths would do the trick, a Swiss lawyer or court should be able to request this should they not,

I do not believe such database exists, and if it existed, access to it would be denied.

[animatic]

There must be Swiss passport control info about her entering and leaving.

How can she have enter Swiss territory if she is here?

Her passport use is recorded on entire and exit of Schengen zone countries.

[Keith67]

A confirmation letter from Swiss immigration as to her entry into Switzerland over the past 6 mths would do the trick, a Swiss lawyer or court should be able to request this should they not,

I do not believe such database exists, and if it existed, access to it would be denied.

If you have to have your passport scanned when you enter exit immigration it most certainly exists.

Access to this information would be denied to you definately but possibly not to a lawyer or court.

[onthemoon]

The easier way is to get the information from Thai immigration: They scan every passport and take a picture every time a traveller enters or leaves the kingdom. Getting hold of the data in Thailand should be less difficult than in Switzerland, considering privacy laws.

[onthemoon]

There must be Swiss passport control info about her entering and leaving.

How can she have enter Swiss territory if she is here?

Her passport use is recorded on entire and exit of Schengen zone countries.

Since she has a Swiss passport, I wouldn't be too sure of that. When I enter Europe with my EU passport, the immigration officer will take half a look, probably only checking validity and picture, but the passport won't be scanned. I can imagine it is the same with a Swiss passport entering Switzerland.

[manarak]

A confirmation letter from Swiss immigration as to her entry into Switzerland over the past 6 mths would do the trick, a Swiss lawyer or court should be able to request this should they not,

I do not believe such database exists, and if it existed, access to it would be denied.

If you have to have your passport scanned when you enter exit immigration it most certainly exists.

Access to this information would be denied to you definately but possibly not to a lawyer or court.

Privacy laws de exist and no, the movements of EU/Swiss citizens are, AFAIK, not recorded.

[Keith67]

A confirmation letter from Swiss immigration as to her entry into Switzerland over the past 6 mths would do the trick, a Swiss lawyer or court should be able to request this should they not,

I do not believe such database exists, and if it existed, access to it would be denied.

If you have to have your passport scanned when you enter exit immigration it most certainly exists.

Access to this information would be denied to you definately but possibly not to a lawyer or court.

Privacy laws de exist and no, the movements of EU/Swiss citizens are, AFAIK, not recorded.

Well if that is the case what are your concerns? give her the divorce and when she tries to screw you in court for half of everything you have, you can point out to them PRIVACY LAWS DO EXIST and refuse any details of bank accounts and assets.

Edited April 19, 2013 by Keith67

[manarak]

Privacy laws de exist and no, the movements of EU/Swiss citizens are, AFAIK, not recorded.

Well if that is the case what are your concerns? give her the divorce and when she tries to screw you in court for half of everything you have, you can point out to them PRIVACY LAWS DO EXIST and refuse any details of bank accounts and assets.

thanks, but I'm already divorced.

It's the OP's case we are discussing here, not mine.

[Keith67]

Privacy laws de exist and no, the movements of EU/Swiss citizens are, AFAIK, not recorded.

Well if that is the case what are your concerns? give her the divorce and when she tries to screw you in court for half of everything you have, you can point out to them PRIVACY LAWS DO EXIST and refuse any details of bank accounts and assets.

thanks, but I'm already divorced.

It's the OP's case we are discussing here, not mine.

Sorry i thought you were the OP.

What do privacy laws have to do with this? If a court want to know something about you or an implication you are making in a court of law they can and no amount of privacy laws can stop them, the same with the police, government and tax office can.

[wolf5370]

A confirmation letter from Swiss immigration as to her entry into Switzerland over the past 6 mths would do the trick, a Swiss lawyer or court should be able to request this should they not,

I do not believe such database exists, and if it existed, access to it would be denied.

If you have to have your passport scanned when you enter exit immigration it most certainly exists.

Access to this information would be denied to you definately but possibly not to a lawyer or court.

Privacy laws de exist and no, the movements of EU/Swiss citizens are, AFAIK, not recorded.

Wouldn't help if they were - it would only show exit not destination.

[manarak]

Privacy laws de exist and no, the movements of EU/Swiss citizens are, AFAIK, not recorded.

Well if that is the case what are your concerns? give her the divorce and when she tries to screw you in court for half of everything you have, you can point out to them PRIVACY LAWS DO EXIST and refuse any details of bank accounts and assets.

thanks, but I'm already divorced.

It's the OP's case we are discussing here, not mine.

Sorry i thought you were the OP.

What do privacy laws have to do with this? If a court want to know something about you or an implication you are making in a court of law they can and no amount of privacy laws can stop them, the same with the police, government and tax office can.

privacy laws prevent information from being recorded unless specifically required by law, and I think Shengen systems (SIRENE) do not record all movements by default. Edited April 20, 2013 by manarak

[Keith67]

privacy laws prevent information from being recorded unless specifically required by law, and I think Shengen systems (SIRENE) do not record all movements by default.

Due the terrorism situation being the way it is at the moment i would assume record of movements between countries were being kept.

[manarak]

privacy laws prevent information from being recorded unless specifically required by law, and I think Shengen systems (SIRENE) do not record all movements by default.

Due the terrorism situation being the way it is at the moment i would assume record of movements between countries were being kept.

From Wikipedia on SIRENE:

SIS does not record travellers' entries into and exits from the Schengen Area (there is no Schengen-wide centralised database tracking entries and exits in all 26 Schengen Member States). However, 10 Schengen Member States (Estonia, Finland, Greece, Hungary, Latvia, Lithuania, Malta, Poland, Portugal, Slovakia and Spain), as well as Bulgaria, Cyprus and Romania, have national databases which record travellers' entries and exits, although data is not exchanged between the national databases of these countries.

And I'll be a bit provocative and assert that there is no particular "terrorism situation" at the moment - considering the history of the past 40 years - and therefore no reason for governments to invade citizens' privacy.