Fire On The Mountian

[richard10365]

Thailand has become a country I love and with things like that you have to take the good with the bad. One thing that I am not use to yet is what happens in February and March. Across Thailand, the farmers burn just about everything thats not part of their property.

Last night I was driving my motorcycle back from Chaing Mai to Phayao. For about the entire trip I could look up in the mountians or down in the valley below to see fires started byThai farmers. They start by burning their own lands but don't even attempt to control the fire. Before you know it, the entire mountian is burned.

The fires burning in the hills of Chaing Mai and Phayao we spread out and at times covered the road with smoke. At one point there was even a tree in the road that fell because of the fire.

I know this is the "Thai Way" but it still makes me sad to see it. I wish there was another way to take care of their farms without destroying everything around it.

[GuestHouse]

A lot of this is 'Slash and Burn Farming' carried out by hill tribes.

Sort of puts a different light on Trible Peoples being at one with nature.

[Rinrada]

"Stupid Ignorant Peasants" is a thought that comes to mind but of course TIT...usual answer......innit

[robitusson]

A lot of this is 'Slash and Burn Farming' carried out by hill tribes.

Sort of puts a different light on Trible Peoples being at one with nature.

Actually slash and burn agriculture, when practiced properly, helps to maintain forests in the long run. Read Collapse by Jared Diamond. He explains the way it works quite well. They tried leaving forests to grow by themselves in Montana after logging and there were disatrous results. It does sound and appear like it's counter-productive.

[richard10365]

A lot of this is 'Slash and Burn Farming' carried out by hill tribes.

Sort of puts a different light on Trible Peoples being at one with nature.

GuestHouse.....I would have to disagree with you about the hill tribes. I live in Phayao in a small farm village. There are no hill tribes in the ampher I live in but the mountians still burn.

Saying the hill tribes are responsible for the fires is like saying farangs are responsible for traffic accidents in Thailand.

I'm sure there hill tribe people burn their farms too but they only are a small percentage of the farmers in Thailand.

There are more Thai farmers burning their land than there are hill tribe people in all of Thailand.

When I lived in Sa Kaeo, central Thailand, The same thing happened. Farmers burned their lands and the mountians around them.

I'm sure there are other TV members who can attest to the areas they live in are free from hill tribes but they still could have looked up at the mountians during the last 2 months and saw fire in the mountians.

[Bung]

I have the same thing around the hills of Petchabun and it is bad because it is definately not done properly.

We have a big problem with erosion and mud slides in the wet as a result. Also it causes our klongs in the village to silt up making them to overflow and flood everyones homes just so a few farmers can grow crops on land they DO NOT OWN!

What gets me is the apathy of people who are in a position to do something just sitting around and doing nothing....

Even HRH has metioned it in his annual address to the people which usually gets those in power off their butts. They did when he mentioned that Thailand needs to stop the drug problem.

A sad result of this practise was the wiping out of a small village in Lom Sak a few years back with the death of over a hundred people from a mud slide.....

[Johpa]

A lot of this is 'Slash and Burn Farming' carried out by hill tribes.

Sort of puts a different light on Trible Peoples being at one with nature.

It is not just hilltribes that practice slash and burn agriculture, that is just a myth to avoid blame elsewhere. Most Thai also burn their padi stubble and all people are burning hillside garden plots and dry rice padi land. It is afterall, the most economical method to clear land while at the same time coverting the organic material into fertilizer. It is how it had been done for centuries and if those spoiled little ex-pats amongst you don't like it then leave.

Slash and burn need not be destructive. The true locals such as the Tais, the K'mu. the Lawas, and the Karen practiced a sustainable slash and burn for centuries. It is the more recent intensification of agriculture for commercial purposes, general population growth, as well as more aggresive forms of slash and burn practiced by newer arrivals such as the Mong, which have caused more serious environmental problems, the least of which is some haze in the air for a few months.

Edited March 14, 2006 by Johpa

[steveromagnino]

A lot of this is 'Slash and Burn Farming' carried out by hill tribes.

Sort of puts a different light on Trible Peoples being at one with nature.

It is not just hilltribes that practice slash and burn agriculture, that is just a myth to avoid blame elsewhere. Most Thai also burn their padi stubble and all people are burning hillside garden plots and dry rice padi land. It is afterall, the most economical method to clear land while at the same time coverting the organic material into fertilizer. It is how it had been done for centuries and if those spoiled little ex-pats amongst you don't like it then leave.

Slash and burn need not be destructive. The true locals such as the Tais, the K'mu. the Lawas, and the Karen practiced a sustainable slash and burn for centuries. It is the more recent intensification of agriculture for commercial purposes, general population growth, as well as more aggresive forms of slash and burn practiced by newer arrivals such as the Mong, which have caused more serious environmental problems, the least of which is some haze in the air for a few months.

As far as I understand, the stubble burning is actually beneficial, and has nothing to do with landslides. The ash makes for good fertiliser - pot ash and so on. It also reduces the risk of fire, because it removes the easily flammable materials, and leaves the big trees, with controlled burning. It is when the large trees and native brush are all burned off using the same method, that the top soil gets exposed and erodes away, particularly on hills and mountains, and then you have land slides and problems.

Therefore, the slight fire stuff I see in Sa Kaew would be 'controlled burning' for the most part. It sounds like some other parts of Thailand are converting what was previously forest into farmable land, using a similar method, but with significantly more damaging results.

What is going on in Phetchaboon is exactly the same as NZ; the big trees were removed and now the land is not stable when it is wet; in NZ it is not 100 years later about, and the east coast area still has land slide problems almost non stop when it is raining; unfortunately the trees do more than just look pretty, they hold the mountain together and without them, sometimes there is problems. Not sure that any of the minor undergrowth being burned off could resolve that. It needs big 20 year old type trees with deep roots IMHO.

[Maigo6]

"Stupid Ignorant Peasants" is a thought that comes to mind but of course TIT...usual answer......innit

Unbelievable......................

[astral]

Burning stubble was a common practice in the UK, until a few years ago

when it was banned.

Too much pollution from the smoke.............

Are you calling Brits, Ignorant Peasants.

[English Noodles]

"Stupid Ignorant Peasants" is a thought that comes to mind but of course TIT...usual answer......innit

How can you be a moderator with comments like this?

[h90]

if it is made since centuries it does not make it smarter. most of the organic material is not turned into fertilizer....

in most farang countries it was also done in the past but banned because it is idiotic.

Not mention that they also burn all kind of other waste (plastic, bateries) along with that.

A lot of this is 'Slash and Burn Farming' carried out by hill tribes.

Sort of puts a different light on Trible Peoples being at one with nature.

It is not just hilltribes that practice slash and burn agriculture, that is just a myth to avoid blame elsewhere. Most Thai also burn their padi stubble and all people are burning hillside garden plots and dry rice padi land. It is afterall, the most economical method to clear land while at the same time coverting the organic material into fertilizer. It is how it had been done for centuries and if those spoiled little ex-pats amongst you don't like it then leave.

Slash and burn need not be destructive. The true locals such as the Tais, the K'mu. the Lawas, and the Karen practiced a sustainable slash and burn for centuries. It is the more recent intensification of agriculture for commercial purposes, general population growth, as well as more aggresive forms of slash and burn practiced by newer arrivals such as the Mong, which have caused more serious environmental problems, the least of which is some haze in the air for a few months.

[DavieA]

"Stupid Ignorant Peasants" is a thought that comes to mind but of course TIT...usual answer......innit

Unbelievable......................

No Maig....I'd believe it! Notice he said the word "innit"? means he comes from England. The land of "Stupid ignorant peasants"! I would have said something like "It's sad that they have not been educated in better methods". Just because you don't know something, doesn't mean your stupid....just uninformed.

[monochaser]

Burn baby Burn, gotta love it. The true peasants are farangs living in peasant areas

[Bryan in Isaan]

We have it here in Isaan too. Every year they burn the mountains near where we live. I was told that it is deliberate. After the fire, small green shoots come out of the plants, which the locals can gather and eat or sell in the market. Not all the locals agree with this method, but noone can stop the few who do it.

As for farmer burning their own land, it does release nutrients into the soil for the next crop. That is probably one of the main reasons it is done. In a similar way to fertilizing with chemicals, it makes the soil hard like concrete.

Other than trying to restore the soil in an old rice farm and do gardening, I am not an expert on these things. However, as to what are the proper methods, I would listen to the real experts in the agricultural colleges and experts sponsored by the Royal Family. They advocate plowing under the stubble, etc., and other methods which restore the natural topsoil.

As for the idea that "they have been doing this for centuries, etc...", it is simply not true. It is not a steady state system. If you want to go back centuries or even decades, population density was always low enough that people could depend on hunting and gathering. There was always another jungle that could be cleared and farmed on. It was always known that the soil in a cleared jungle would produce good crops for several years, then more jungle could be cleared. However, since the jungles are gone and the soil is bad, the farmers now need to begin to use better methods.

Bryan

Edited March 14, 2006 by Bryan in Isaan

[Donz]

we do it in australia to reduce bush fires in bushfire season. and some do go out of control, sometimes you dont know what the wind will do.

If they wanna burn let them burn.

[Old Croc]

Many species of plants in Australia don't germinate without fire. The Aboriginals have been burning the countryside for thousands of years.

Land management departments set fires every year to control and manage growth.

Perhaps some plant species in Thailand require the same treatment.

Hard for the British to understand coming from their little green isles.

[Donz]

oldcroc sounds like he knows what he is talking about

[Maigo6]

Land management departments set fires every year to control and manage growth.

Perhaps some plant species in Thailand require the same treatment.

Hard for the British to understand coming from their little green isles.

Yea, but it does give them something else to moan about, there is that.

[richard10365]

The problem I think is not burning of the farm, it is the uncontrolled burning of the sourrounding areas. If Thai farmers only burned their land then chances are it would not be much of a problem. Thai farmers fail to control where the fire goes after it burns their farm.

For those of you who say if we don't like it leave,....f___ you. The polution in the atomsphere affects all countries. We are talking about the problem to find a solution. If you don't like it leave this forum.

[jdinasia]

Simple solution ... If you don't like it ... get the laws changed and enforced. Then happily deal with your neighbors that blame you for their crop failures!

Though I guess I'd be upset if I didn't do due-diligence before investing on a hill that gets smoky annually!

Edited March 14, 2006 by jdinasia

[OlRedEyes]

Doing something for centuries doesn't mean you can do it under modern circumstances such as much higher population density etc.

Who was it that said 'Adapt or die'.....

Plants needing fire to enable seed growth are normally found in arid areas. I seriously doubt that SEA has this type of flora.

Edited March 14, 2006 by OlRedEyes

[Johpa]

Burn baby Burn, gotta love it. The true peasants are farangs living in peasant areas

Perhaps you could explain and elaborate your negative sentiments against ex-pats, and specifically Farangs, who live in rural areas surrounded by those that naive older academics like Popkin and Scott refered to in medieval terms as "peasants." Does it bother you to encounter a Farang who is happy living in a small rural village that does not have Internet access.

Of course I am as guilty as you in stereotyping the newest generation of ex-pats in Thailand, those with their easy to be had work permits and high paying jobs and options for International schools while all the while ensconced in their condos or white walled red tiled souless mubaan jatsaan housing estates who, in these boards, seem to assimilate towards Bangkok ethics of blaming the rural folks for Thailands woes. Yep, put them darn peasants in jail for cutting down a single tree for building their pathetic little abodes but all hail, and please let me take a picture with them to put into the social pages of the Bangkok Post, the wealthy Bangkok folks whose companies (e.g. Boon Rawd) cut down entire forests with impunity.

[Rinrada]

Burning stubble was a common practice in the UK, until a few years ago

when it was banned.

Too much pollution from the smoke.............

Are you calling Brits, Ignorant Peasants.

Not any More they aint.......

[juggler]

Burn baby Burn, gotta love it. The true peasants are farangs living in peasant areas

Does it bother you to encounter a Farang who is happy living in a small rural village that does not have Internet access.

Of course I am as guilty as you in stereotyping the newest generation of ex-pats in Thailand, those with their easy to be had work permits "No work permit yet" and high paying jobs "unemployed' and options for International schools "if thats your sort of thing" while all the while ensconced in their condos or white walled red tiled souless mubaan jatsaan housing estates who, in these boards, seem to assimilate towards Bangkok ethics of blaming the rural folks for Thailands woes. Yep, put them darn peasants in jail for cutting down a single tree for building their pathetic little abodes but all hail, and please let me take a picture with them to put into the social pages of the Bangkok Post, the wealthy Bangkok folks whose companies (e.g. Boon Rawd) cut down entire forests with impunity.

easy now tiger trees grow aswell as get cut down!

I met a guy from papa new guinea the other day on the way back from poipet on a visa run. Turns out i didn't agree with him on much. His family business was logging and they used those logging boats you see going down chao prior at about 3km/hr (they actually go round the world too at such slow speeds) suprisingly.

said he was here on business where the wood was all inspected at some depot prior to more transportation so that was what he was doing in BKK (red tape and some bribes no doubt), (cant remember which wood (probably teak or something) He told me greenpeace was well on their familly businesses case and after speaking to them i felt like joinging them

i pointed out the fact that animals die and dont get replaced. What i found nasty was that he said on the outskirt of the jungle there which had been cut back about 50% already, you could see tigers....wild cats and other animals roaming on the boundry. obviously wondering what the f happening. Not as clever as us humans eh!

Slash and burn been happening for years in Thailand.....literaly years. It's proper old school and beyond repair in terms of wildlife methinks. Thailands blood comes from rice or something like that so fair dimcum, die or have no food/It's over here and has been for a long time, except for the national parks ( I think) a few elephants and maybe some tasty animals to eat in Chiang Mai when the zoo opens (doesn't that top it all). All wild cats gone more or less. Bet there uesed to be plenty monkeys all over too )still a few left though, at least thats what i sometimes get called!.

PS I'm no vegetarian

[bachismo]

I don't know specifically about slash and burn as a method for agriculture, but being a former forest firefighter, I do know how fire relates to forestry. Beginning in the 20th centruy the US Forestry service took a position that all forest fires were hazardous and should be put out. What ended up happening is that the forests became much thicker than nature had intended. When a fire did occur naturally, the brush was so thick that the fire spread easily to the treetops which is when a fire becomes uncontrollable. The US Forest Service now seeks to actively thin out the forests, but the opposition to any type of treecutting is immense. The forests are still much thicker than they were a couple hundred years ago, but it is vastly unpopular to cut down trees for any reason.

Naturally occuring fires is a part of the cycle of the forest. A big fire generally comes along about once every seven years, and enriches the soil beneath it. I participated in many control burns where we set the fires in purpouse in order to make sure an uncontrollable fire didn't come along later. It is very rare that one of these gets out of control. Just a hundred guys sitting around roasting marshmellows on a 50 acre camp fire.

[bina]

there is a difference between controlled agricultural fires on land and fires that go out of control.... we do it here in israel and they DO go out of control (what a waste of manpower and water to put them out too...) what do we burn: rooted out orchard trees (good wood is sold, the rest burned)...field stubble, etc..

the thais seem to burn everything from plastic to wood without checking up on it.. the guys here burn stuff and have more than a few times almost caused a 'real' fire do to lack of understanding of desert dryness, wind etc (i explain, but they poo poo the idea...)

how much overgrowth is there in most of issan area that warrants the use of fire to control the woods??? dont think so... most seems to have been grazed down, or eaten up...