New Concrete Pool Const

[cdmtdm]

thinking seriously about installing a concrete pool .. we are out in the sticks but have a good contractor around an hour away . i will supply the tiles and filtration /pump equipment .my questions are

1/ what should i look out for as major pitfalls in the quotation ..re in the construction....

2/ any estimates on price ..it will be 6m x 6m x1.8deep with three steps gradual slope

3/ what brand is recommended for the pump and saltwater chlorinator

Cheers

[Hugh Jarse]

There is a Swimming pool Forum, full of useful information from people who have built pools, the problems encountered and other input. Check this out before proceeding any further. Next, talk to the major contractors and then view their workmanship during and after construction. The cheapist quote is never the best! Good luck.

[AllanB]

1. A pool contractor is not going to happy if the customer wants to supply materials, they may not be suitable and he has to guarantee the work. He is losing some of his profit too, normally you choose tiles, etc. and he supplies. Alternatively use a pool consultant.

2. 6m x 6m is an odd shape, gradual slope from what to what and what do you want the pool for?

3. A salt water chlorinator is a bad idea for a concrete, tiled pool, salt water is very abrasive and will take the glazing off very quickly.

My advice is that you talk to your local contractor, discuss you needs, rather than your plan. The big problem with a pool is that once built it is impossible to modify if you get it wrong. PPPPPP. Perfect planning prevents piss poor performance.

With only one pool contractor to choose from, you have Hobson's choice and he will know that. Where are you roughly?

Suggest you rewrite your requirements in terms of what you want from the pool, i.e swimming, training, a cool place to relax, space available and budget and you will get some ideas from the people here. Don't redesign the wheel, find something you like on Google and post a picture.

Or send me a private message

[Valentine]

Make sure the builder fully understands the waterproofing process i.e. waterproof concrete, waterstop, waterproof membrane. Also what size steel, thickness of concrete.

Saltwater chlorinators do not take the glaze off tiles. If the glaze comes off it will be due to other reasons.

There are stringent rules when applying pool tiles otherwise they will lift off later.

PM me your quotes for pool equipment & where you are as I could possibly point you to a cheaper supply. You should have a filtration system that can turnover the water volume 2 times in an 8 hour period & a saltwater chlorinator which can produce 260 grams chlorine. You need to make double the amount of chlorine due to depletion by UV rays unless you add pool stabiliser.

[AllanB]

Make sure the builder fully understands the waterproofing process i.e. waterproof concrete, waterstop, waterproof membrane. Also what size steel, thickness of concrete.

Saltwater chlorinators do not take the glaze off tiles. If the glaze comes off it will be due to other reasons.

There are stringent rules when applying pool tiles otherwise they will lift off later.

PM me your quotes for pool equipment & where you are as I could possibly point you to a cheaper supply. You should have a filtration system that can turnover the water volume 2 times in an 8 hour period & a saltwater chlorinator which can produce 260 grams chlorine. You need to make double the amount of chlorine due to depletion by UV rays unless you add pool stabiliser.

If your contractor is a pool specialist, a must, ask for his build specification and then post it.

There are many companies who will only supply salt water systems on plastic pools, due to the abrasive effects of the salt, there are other reasons too http://www.carefreeclearwater.com/saltwaterpools.html If you doubt that salt water is abrasive and corrosive, go and look at house down by the beach that is more than a few years old.

I see no advantages to SWC's they are expensive and have a limited life, they add complication too, which I hate, but all good reasons why suppliers love them. KISS.... 3000 baht's worth of chlorine tablets per year, job done and spend your hard earned cash on nice tiles.

Waterproof membranes are bad news too, again they have a finite life and then leak, much better to cast the pool in one piece, much stronger construction too..

Steer clear of sand filters they are dirty, ridiculously expensive (adding the cost of a plant-room), inefficient and back-washing is a pain, especially with salt water, which leaves a corrosive residue everywhere.

Edited April 7, 2013 by AllanB

[Valentine]

Make sure the builder fully understands the waterproofing process i.e. waterproof concrete, waterstop, waterproof membrane. Also what size steel, thickness of concrete.

Saltwater chlorinators do not take the glaze off tiles. If the glaze comes off it will be due to other reasons.

There are stringent rules when applying pool tiles otherwise they will lift off later.

PM me your quotes for pool equipment & where you are as I could possibly point you to a cheaper supply. You should have a filtration system that can turnover the water volume 2 times in an 8 hour period & a saltwater chlorinator which can produce 260 grams chlorine. You need to make double the amount of chlorine due to depletion by UV rays unless you add pool stabiliser.

If your contractor is a pool specialist, a must, ask for his build specification and then post it.

There are many companies who will only supply salt water systems on plastic pools, due to the abrasive effects of the salt, there are other reasons too http://www.carefreeclearwater.com/saltwaterpools.html If you doubt that salt water is abrasive and corrosive, go and look at house down by the beach that is more than a few years old.

I see no advantages to SWC's they are expensive and have a limited life, they add complication too, which I hate, but all good reasons why suppliers love them. KISS.... 3000 baht's worth of chlorine tablets per year, job done and spend your hard earned cash on nice tiles.

Waterproof membranes are bad news too, again they have a finite life and then leak, much better to cast the pool in one piece, much stronger construction too..

Steer clear of sand filters they are dirty, ridiculously expensive (adding the cost of a plant-room), inefficient and back-washing is a pain, especially with salt water, which leaves a corrosive residue everywhere.

Having built around 150 pools with all but 3 or 4 having saltwater chlorinators I do not see any abrasive effects on tiles or equipment. Required salt content is only 10% that of seawater & swimming in a salt pool is a much more pleasant experience. If installing a pool ladder then ensure it is made from marine grade stainless steel.

A good waterproof membrane applied to the concrete surface crystalizes inside the concrete giving it an impervious seal. I have seen far too many pools where leaching out from concrete between the tiles leaves a stalagmite type residue which is almost impossible to clean off.

Sand filters are no more expensive than any other type of filter & if using active filter media, try this link for one of the original companies who pioneered its use, http://www.drydenaqua.com/ require much less backwashing along with very efficient filtration which BTW is a lot easier & less messy than cleaning cartridge filters or DE filters where DE has to be applied on a regular basis.

[AllanB]

"Having built around 150 pools with all but 3 or 4 having saltwater chlorinators I do not see any abrasive effects on tiles or equipment. Required salt content is only 10% that of seawater & swimming in a salt pool is a much more pleasant experience. If installing a pool ladder then ensure it is made from marine grade stainless steel". If that is true, which surprises me from what I have read, it is still an unnecessary expense and I know of at least one person who had only 3 years use before it packed up. Add the the fact that TIT where everything packs up after 5 minutes and then the simple alternative of buying nothing. I would opt for the latter, though I would concede your point about the slightly more pleasant swimming experience.

"A good waterproof membrane applied to the concrete surface crystalizes inside the concrete giving it an impervious seal. I have seen far too many pools where leaching out from concrete between the tiles leaves a stalagmite type residue which is almost impossible to clean off". I don't know about that, so won't comment without research.

"Sand filters are no more expensive than any other type of filter & if using active filter media, try this link for one of the original companies who pioneered its use, http://www.drydenaqua.com/ require much less backwashing along with very efficient filtration which BTW is a lot easier & less messy than cleaning cartridge filters or DE filters where DE has to be applied on a regular basis".

1. I would request that you put some cost figures against a sand filter set up, including all the additional pipework, valves, labour, etc. and then consider the fact that a plant-room becomes an essential, compared with bag and cartridge filter systems where a simple enclosure is easily possible. If you don't have the space for a big plant-room, then you are left with the hideous option of a subterranean one and then hope like hell it doesn't flood when the rains arrive.

2. Remember too that the level of filtration falls well below that of the other two options, which means you need a cartridge filter in addition to the sand filter to get the same result.

3. Sand filters are impossible to clean 100% and become a breeding ground for algae, Bags and cartridges can be washed out properly and sanitised in a few minutes, so it is no big deal and you know the job is done properly, you can see it. I had a sand filter on my pool in France and every time I back washed it took a different length of time for the water to run clear, I always ran a little longer in case there was some crap that was still stuck. A completely blind system.

4. Add to that, my mains water here is not very clean and I would be replacing dirty water with dirty water, unless I put it through a fine bag filter.

5. Add to that you have to clean this plant-room, the big filter and all the complicated pipework and valves, it isn't the "simply turn a lever" job you make out. This plant room has ventilation slats too, so all the crap blows in, including mosquitos, snakes, spiders and god knows what else. If you don't make the plant-room big enough, you won't get the equipment out when it fails or requires a service and won't be able to work on it.

I think simple systems work better, "what can go wrong, will go wrong", especially here in Thailand Algae is a major problem here and this subject needs addressing, without simply resorting to dumping chemicals into the water. I think an inline bag filter is the way to go, bags are cheap at around 1000 baht and are so simple to clean. You can select your level of filtration too, depending on your needs at any given time, right down to 1 micron.

[Valentine]

I have full filtration systems that only take up 1.5m x 0.9m. When AllanB is talking about cartridge filters I am assuming he means DE filter as they supposedly filter down to 5 microns. Sand filters with active filter media can filter around 5 to 10 microns but if you were to put the two pools side by side you could not tell the difference in water clarity. Between DE, cartridge & sand you will find a cartridge filter to be the least efficient which negates point 2 above. Point number 3 above does not apply to AFM. In regards to point 4 we just filled a pool last night from a water truck & as Phuket is now very low on water it was extremely dark green but after several hours running through a regular sand filter this morning it is cleaning up nicely & will be pristine by the end of the day. As for plant rooms many people like the option of being able to stand there with easy access to the controls, can store pool cleaning equipment, chemicals etc. I have had a snake inside my house so keeping snakes or anything out of anywhere in this country is nigh on impossible.

BTW I have always been wary of the inline systems where the filtration unit is in a box latched on to the pool as the pump is below water level & I shudder to think what would happen should there be a breach with pool water flooding the pump. Hopefully the safety cut will work. I do concede they have the advantage of no pipework.

Anyway, I think the OP has enough information from AllanB & myself to research further & form his own opinion.

[AllanB]

I have full filtration systems that only take up 1.5m x 0.9m. When AllanB is talking about cartridge filters I am assuming he means DE filter as they supposedly filter down to 5 microns. Sand filters with active filter media can filter around 5 to 10 microns but if you were to put the two pools side by side you could not tell the difference in water clarity. Between DE, cartridge & sand you will find a cartridge filter to be the least efficient which negates point 2 above. Point number 3 above does not apply to AFM. In regards to point 4 we just filled a pool last night from a water truck & as Phuket is now very low on water it was extremely dark green but after several hours running through a regular sand filter this morning it is cleaning up nicely & will be pristine by the end of the day. As for plant rooms many people like the option of being able to stand there with easy access to the controls, can store pool cleaning equipment, chemicals etc. I have had a snake inside my house so keeping snakes or anything out of anywhere in this country is nigh on impossible.

BTW I have always been wary of the inline systems where the filtration unit is in a box latched on to the pool as the pump is below water level & I shudder to think what would happen should there be a breach with pool water flooding the pump. Hopefully the safety cut will work. I do concede they have the advantage of no pipework.

Anyway, I think the OP has enough information from AllanB & myself to research further & form his own opinion.

A cartridge filter is just that, a cartridge, in an enclosure that can be removed for cleaning, the level of filtration varies dependent on the model, but usually around 10-15 microns, way better than that predicted for a sand filter, Bag filters are available in almost any pore size, but for pools they use 50, down to 1 micron

A DE filter is something different, a final filter, which cannot stand alone, so I don't know where that fits into this topic. Though I have seen systems where they use sand, cartridge and then DE as a 3 stage filter.

You still didn't answer point 3, the total cost of a sand filter system, like many others preferring to use the phrase "comparable to others", not so at all. Put a 5 micron bag filter in the skimmer enclosure and you are looking at 1000 baht, comparable eh??.

So you now have a big box full of sand mixed with algae, some of which may wash out, good luck. I had the same problem a few months ago, filled up about 25 bags, washed them all straight down the drain, sanitied them with a little household bleach, gone for good, together with a number of possible parasites and bacteria, which would be breeding in a sand filter. Now I filter the water before I put it in.

If you have snakes in the house, well I don't know what to say about that....no really. Perhaps another forum.

Edited April 8, 2013 by AllanB

[AllanB]

I have full filtration systems that only take up 1.5m x 0.9m. When AllanB is talking about cartridge filters I am assuming he means DE filter as they supposedly filter down to 5 microns. Sand filters with active filter media can filter around 5 to 10 microns but if you were to put the two pools side by side you could not tell the difference in water clarity. Between DE, cartridge & sand you will find a cartridge filter to be the least efficient which negates point 2 above. Point number 3 above does not apply to AFM. In regards to point 4 we just filled a pool last night from a water truck & as Phuket is now very low on water it was extremely dark green but after several hours running through a regular sand filter this morning it is cleaning up nicely & will be pristine by the end of the day. As for plant rooms many people like the option of being able to stand there with easy access to the controls, can store pool cleaning equipment, chemicals etc. I have had a snake inside my house so keeping snakes or anything out of anywhere in this country is nigh on impossible.

BTW I have always been wary of the inline systems where the filtration unit is in a box latched on to the pool as the pump is below water level & I shudder to think what would happen should there be a breach with pool water flooding the pump. Hopefully the safety cut will work. I do concede they have the advantage of no pipework.

Anyway, I think the OP has enough information from AllanB & myself to research further & form his own opinion.

A normal sand filter removes particles down to about 40 microns and operates with a pressure loss of between 4 and 10 psi ( 3m-7m head) between clean and dirty. Which with say a 2m system loss, reduces flow considerably, compared to an equivalent bag filter, where the filtration loss is virtually zero.

This means your total head, is about 5-9m and at the upper limit, your flow is reduced by 60% and already quite close to the 10m max of the pump, before flow stops completely. For reference I am looking at an Emaux SS 1hp pump curve.

What is the effect of adding a finer filter element and reducing filtration from 40 microns all the way down to the claimed 5-10 microns? My guess is "zero flow" and even using a more powerful high pressure pump, the flow rate will be a fraction of the design figure. The much higher work rate of the pump will shorten the life of the pump considerably and increase electricity consumption.

So these throw away comments of 5-10 microns for a sand filter have dire consequences to the system performance.

You engineer a system to achieve a certain water change rate in order to keep the water circulating and clean, so if you make changes like you are suggesting, you think you have solved one problem, but in fact created a much worse one. Either that of tell your client to run his pump 24/7..

Edited April 11, 2013 by AllanB

[Valentine]

I have full filtration systems that only take up 1.5m x 0.9m. When AllanB is talking about cartridge filters I am assuming he means DE filter as they supposedly filter down to 5 microns. Sand filters with active filter media can filter around 5 to 10 microns but if you were to put the two pools side by side you could not tell the difference in water clarity. Between DE, cartridge & sand you will find a cartridge filter to be the least efficient which negates point 2 above. Point number 3 above does not apply to AFM. In regards to point 4 we just filled a pool last night from a water truck & as Phuket is now very low on water it was extremely dark green but after several hours running through a regular sand filter this morning it is cleaning up nicely & will be pristine by the end of the day. As for plant rooms many people like the option of being able to stand there with easy access to the controls, can store pool cleaning equipment, chemicals etc. I have had a snake inside my house so keeping snakes or anything out of anywhere in this country is nigh on impossible.

BTW I have always been wary of the inline systems where the filtration unit is in a box latched on to the pool as the pump is below water level & I shudder to think what would happen should there be a breach with pool water flooding the pump. Hopefully the safety cut will work. I do concede they have the advantage of no pipework.

Anyway, I think the OP has enough information from AllanB & myself to research further & form his own opinion.

A normal sand filter removes particles down to about 40 microns and operates with a pressure loss of between 4 and 10 psi ( 3m-7m head) between clean and dirty. Which with say a 2m system loss, reduces flow considerably, compared to an equivalent bag filter, where the filtration loss is virtually zero.

This means your total head, is about 5-9m and at the upper limit, your flow is reduced by 60% and already quite close to the 10m max of the pump, before flow stops completely. For reference I am looking at an Emaux SS 1hp pump curve.

What is the effect of adding a finer filter element and reducing filtration from 40 microns all the way down to the claimed 5-10 microns? My guess is "zero flow" and even using a more powerful high pressure pump, the flow rate will be a fraction of the design figure. The much higher work rate of the pump will shorten the life of the pump considerably and increase electricity consumption.

So these throw away comments of 5-10 microns for a sand filter have dire consequences to the system performance.

You engineer a system to achieve a certain water change rate in order to keep the water circulating and clean, so if you make changes like you are suggesting, you think you have solved one problem, but in fact created a much worse one. Either that of tell your client to run his pump 24/7..

Try reading about active filter media before making your ridiculous statements. This is my last reaction to you as clearly I am wasting my breath. I just hope the OP takes on board all the information, including yours, checks it through Google & then can make his own decision.

Edited April 11, 2013 by Valentine

[AllanB]

I must thank you Valentinme for making me research the subject of "Active Filter Media", quite interesting language they use.

Quote from http://www.funfantastic.com

"Under controlled conditions using 16/30 sand, at a flow rate of 10m3/hr/m2 the sand removed approx 90% of all particals down to 10 microns. AFM Grade 1 under the same conditions removed partical size down to 5 microns".

1. That doesn't make it a 5 micron filter at all, if 10% gets through. 10% is a lot when you are dealing with living organisms, which multiply at a rapid rate, especially in tropical conditions..

2. Since it doesn't mention the change in DP at a given load, one can only speculate that a finer filter would give a greater pressure drop for a given load.

3. "Under controlled conditions" means that it was not a real live test anyway, it was achieved in a test laboratory and we all know and that means. Plus they admit they got 10 microns using ordinary sand, when it is widely known that sand filters down to 40 micron in the real world.

So we are already in the realms of sales bullshit, before you accuse me of making ridiculous statements.

Then if we look at another website http://www.drydenaqua.co.uk and we find out something else and I quote:-

"AFM active filter material prevents the formation of biofilm this means the filter bed does not channel giving increased performance as well as increased protection from pathogens such as legionella and cryptosporidium oocysts. The prevention of biofouling also reduces chlorine consumption since there is no demand in the system."

This demonstrates just how inherently dirty and unhealthy sand filters are in the first place, compared with filters where complete sterilisation is not only possible, but easy, like bag and cartridge filters, where none of these problems exist, to need reducing.

I suggest you read things carefully, rather than quoting from "sexed up" documentation.

[jbrain]

"Having built around 150 pools with all but 3 or 4 having saltwater chlorinators I do not see any abrasive effects on tiles or equipment. Required salt content is only 10% that of seawater & swimming in a salt pool is a much more pleasant experience. If installing a pool ladder then ensure it is made from marine grade stainless steel". If that is true, which surprises me from what I have read, it is still an unnecessary expense and I know of at least one person who had only 3 years use before it packed up. Add the the fact that TIT where everything packs up after 5 minutes and then the simple alternative of buying nothing. I would opt for the latter, though I would concede your point about the slightly more pleasant swimming experience.

"A good waterproof membrane applied to the concrete surface crystalizes inside the concrete giving it an impervious seal. I have seen far too many pools where leaching out from concrete between the tiles leaves a stalagmite type residue which is almost impossible to clean off". I don't know about that, so won't comment without research.

"Sand filters are no more expensive than any other type of filter & if using active filter media, try this link for one of the original companies who pioneered its use, http://www.drydenaqua.com/ require much less backwashing along with very efficient filtration which BTW is a lot easier & less messy than cleaning cartridge filters or DE filters where DE has to be applied on a regular basis".

1. I would request that you put some cost figures against a sand filter set up, including all the additional pipework, valves, labour, etc. and then consider the fact that a plant-room becomes an essential, compared with bag and cartridge filter systems where a simple enclosure is easily possible. If you don't have the space for a big plant-room, then you are left with the hideous option of a subterranean one and then hope like hell it doesn't flood when the rains arrive.

2. Remember too that the level of filtration falls well below that of the other two options, which means you need a cartridge filter in addition to the sand filter to get the same result.

3. Sand filters are impossible to clean 100% and become a breeding ground for algae, Bags and cartridges can be washed out properly and sanitised in a few minutes, so it is no big deal and you know the job is done properly, you can see it. I had a sand filter on my pool in France and every time I back washed it took a different length of time for the water to run clear, I always ran a little longer in case there was some crap that was still stuck. A completely blind system.

4. Add to that, my mains water here is not very clean and I would be replacing dirty water with dirty water, unless I put it through a fine bag filter.

5. Add to that you have to clean this plant-room, the big filter and all the complicated pipework and valves, it isn't the "simply turn a lever" job you make out. This plant room has ventilation slats too, so all the crap blows in, including mosquitos, snakes, spiders and god knows what else. If you don't make the plant-room big enough, you won't get the equipment out when it fails or requires a service and won't be able to work on it.

I think simple systems work better, "what can go wrong, will go wrong", especially here in Thailand Algae is a major problem here and this subject needs addressing, without simply resorting to dumping chemicals into the water. I think an inline bag filter is the way to go, bags are cheap at around 1000 baht and are so simple to clean. You can select your level of filtration too, depending on your needs at any given time, right down to 1 micron.

Mr AllanB I've read through your comments on this and some other threads in the swimming pool forum.

Have you actually ever seen, owned or build a pool or are you just blabbering about something you read somewhere else ?

p.s. : No need to answer, I know already.

[Valentine]

I said I would not respond anymore to the resident pool expert but his quoting off the AFM website & his response which I have posted below is good for a laugh. Perhaps he should look up the definition of biofilm. There are bacteria less than 1 micron in size. Maybe he is a pool troll. BTW it is the sanitising component of the filtration system which kills bacteria i.e. chlorine, ozone, ionizer. Pool filters are purely for water clarity by removing dirt & sediment.

"AFM
active filter material prevents the formation of biofilm this means the
filter bed does not channel giving increased performance as well as
increased protection from pathogens such as legionella and
cryptosporidium oocysts. The prevention of biofouling also reduces
chlorine consumption since there is no demand in the system."

This demonstrates just how inherently dirty and unhealthy sand
filters are in the first place, compared with filters where
complete sterilisation is not only possible, but easy, like bag and
cartridge filters, where none of these problems exist, to need reducing.

[AllanB]

"Having built around 150 pools with all but 3 or 4 having saltwater chlorinators I do not see any abrasive effects on tiles or equipment. Required salt content is only 10% that of seawater & swimming in a salt pool is a much more pleasant experience. If installing a pool ladder then ensure it is made from marine grade stainless steel". If that is true, which surprises me from what I have read, it is still an unnecessary expense and I know of at least one person who had only 3 years use before it packed up. Add the the fact that TIT where everything packs up after 5 minutes and then the simple alternative of buying nothing. I would opt for the latter, though I would concede your point about the slightly more pleasant swimming experience.

"A good waterproof membrane applied to the concrete surface crystalizes inside the concrete giving it an impervious seal. I have seen far too many pools where leaching out from concrete between the tiles leaves a stalagmite type residue which is almost impossible to clean off". I don't know about that, so won't comment without research.

"Sand filters are no more expensive than any other type of filter & if using active filter media, try this link for one of the original companies who pioneered its use, http://www.drydenaqua.com/ require much less backwashing along with very efficient filtration which BTW is a lot easier & less messy than cleaning cartridge filters or DE filters where DE has to be applied on a regular basis".

1. I would request that you put some cost figures against a sand filter set up, including all the additional pipework, valves, labour, etc. and then consider the fact that a plant-room becomes an essential, compared with bag and cartridge filter systems where a simple enclosure is easily possible. If you don't have the space for a big plant-room, then you are left with the hideous option of a subterranean one and then hope like hell it doesn't flood when the rains arrive.

2. Remember too that the level of filtration falls well below that of the other two options, which means you need a cartridge filter in addition to the sand filter to get the same result.

3. Sand filters are impossible to clean 100% and become a breeding ground for algae, Bags and cartridges can be washed out properly and sanitised in a few minutes, so it is no big deal and you know the job is done properly, you can see it. I had a sand filter on my pool in France and every time I back washed it took a different length of time for the water to run clear, I always ran a little longer in case there was some crap that was still stuck. A completely blind system.

4. Add to that, my mains water here is not very clean and I would be replacing dirty water with dirty water, unless I put it through a fine bag filter.

5. Add to that you have to clean this plant-room, the big filter and all the complicated pipework and valves, it isn't the "simply turn a lever" job you make out. This plant room has ventilation slats too, so all the crap blows in, including mosquitos, snakes, spiders and god knows what else. If you don't make the plant-room big enough, you won't get the equipment out when it fails or requires a service and won't be able to work on it.

I think simple systems work better, "what can go wrong, will go wrong", especially here in Thailand Algae is a major problem here and this subject needs addressing, without simply resorting to dumping chemicals into the water. I think an inline bag filter is the way to go, bags are cheap at around 1000 baht and are so simple to clean. You can select your level of filtration too, depending on your needs at any given time, right down to 1 micron.

Mr AllanB I've read through your comments on this and some other threads in the swimming pool forum.

Have you actually ever seen, owned or build a pool or are you just blabbering about something you read somewhere else ?

p.s. : No need to answer, I know already.

To date, I have built just two pools and assisted with another, but spent 15 years as a Control Systems Engineer, so know quite a bit about the subject in discussion, but that is beside the point. This is about the specifics and the maths associated with them, not about people.

If you have a point to debate, please do so, that is the whole purpose of these forums, to learn from each other, get to the truth and improve what we do. You do yourself no favours throwing insults around, when you have no answers.

God knows there is enough bullshit out there, unlike the bikers forum, this one has salesmen involved trying to ply their wares and salesmen have an agenda.

[jbrain]

"Having built around 150 pools with all but 3 or 4 having saltwater chlorinators I do not see any abrasive effects on tiles or equipment. Required salt content is only 10% that of seawater & swimming in a salt pool is a much more pleasant experience. If installing a pool ladder then ensure it is made from marine grade stainless steel". If that is true, which surprises me from what I have read, it is still an unnecessary expense and I know of at least one person who had only 3 years use before it packed up. Add the the fact that TIT where everything packs up after 5 minutes and then the simple alternative of buying nothing. I would opt for the latter, though I would concede your point about the slightly more pleasant swimming experience.

"A good waterproof membrane applied to the concrete surface crystalizes inside the concrete giving it an impervious seal. I have seen far too many pools where leaching out from concrete between the tiles leaves a stalagmite type residue which is almost impossible to clean off". I don't know about that, so won't comment without research.

"Sand filters are no more expensive than any other type of filter & if using active filter media, try this link for one of the original companies who pioneered its use, http://www.drydenaqua.com/ require much less backwashing along with very efficient filtration which BTW is a lot easier & less messy than cleaning cartridge filters or DE filters where DE has to be applied on a regular basis".

1. I would request that you put some cost figures against a sand filter set up, including all the additional pipework, valves, labour, etc. and then consider the fact that a plant-room becomes an essential, compared with bag and cartridge filter systems where a simple enclosure is easily possible. If you don't have the space for a big plant-room, then you are left with the hideous option of a subterranean one and then hope like hell it doesn't flood when the rains arrive.

2. Remember too that the level of filtration falls well below that of the other two options, which means you need a cartridge filter in addition to the sand filter to get the same result.

3. Sand filters are impossible to clean 100% and become a breeding ground for algae, Bags and cartridges can be washed out properly and sanitised in a few minutes, so it is no big deal and you know the job is done properly, you can see it. I had a sand filter on my pool in France and every time I back washed it took a different length of time for the water to run clear, I always ran a little longer in case there was some crap that was still stuck. A completely blind system.

4. Add to that, my mains water here is not very clean and I would be replacing dirty water with dirty water, unless I put it through a fine bag filter.

5. Add to that you have to clean this plant-room, the big filter and all the complicated pipework and valves, it isn't the "simply turn a lever" job you make out. This plant room has ventilation slats too, so all the crap blows in, including mosquitos, snakes, spiders and god knows what else. If you don't make the plant-room big enough, you won't get the equipment out when it fails or requires a service and won't be able to work on it.

I think simple systems work better, "what can go wrong, will go wrong", especially here in Thailand Algae is a major problem here and this subject needs addressing, without simply resorting to dumping chemicals into the water. I think an inline bag filter is the way to go, bags are cheap at around 1000 baht and are so simple to clean. You can select your level of filtration too, depending on your needs at any given time, right down to 1 micron.

Mr AllanB I've read through your comments on this and some other threads in the swimming pool forum.

Have you actually ever seen, owned or build a pool or are you just blabbering about something you read somewhere else ?

p.s. : No need to answer, I know already.

To date, I have built just two pools and assisted with another, but spent 15 years as a Control Systems Engineer, so know quite a bit about the subject in discussion, but that is beside the point. This is about the specifics and the maths associated with them, not about people.

If you have a point to debate, please do so, that is the whole purpose of these forums, to learn from each other, get to the truth and improve what we do. You do yourself no favours throwing insults around, when you have no answers.

God knows there is enough bullshit out there, unlike the bikers forum, this one has salesmen involved trying to ply their wares and salesmen have an agenda.

I'm not insulting you, I only try to make clear that everything you post doesn't make any sense.

Same as your discussion in the thread about using bleech as to shock pools.

Valentine has corrected all your mistakes in this thread already, so no need to repeat them and you're right salesman have an agenda, but guess what .

Everything you've posted so far in this and other threads on this forum has been copied from websites with a large agenda.

[AllanB]

I said I would not respond anymore to the resident pool expert but his quoting off the AFM website & his response which I have posted below is good for a laugh. Perhaps he should look up the definition of biofilm. There are bacteria less than 1 micron in size. Maybe he is a pool troll. BTW it is the sanitising component of the filtration system which kills bacteria i.e. chlorine, ozone, ionizer. Pool filters are purely for water clarity by removing dirt & sediment.

"AFM

active filter material prevents the formation of biofilm this means the

filter bed does not channel giving increased performance as well as

increased protection from pathogens such as legionella and

cryptosporidium oocysts. The prevention of biofouling also reduces

chlorine consumption since there is no demand in the system."

This demonstrates just how inherently dirty and unhealthy sand

filters are in the first place, compared with filters where

complete sterilisation is not only possible, but easy, like bag and

cartridge filters, where none of these problems exist, to need reducing.

You told me to read up on it, so I did, I Googled and that was the first to come up, how am I to know what bullshit you are referring to? It is all a load of crap as far as I am concerned, it is salesmen's guff for goodness sake. "Omo washes whiter than white" "Coke is the real thing" "Saddam had WMD's"

If you have a better source then stop wriggling and quote it, a link will do and then we can all read your "factual" source, to see whether it has any scientific merit.

Look up the definition of the word "filter" A porous material through which a liquid or gas is passed in order to separate the fluid from suspended particulate matter. It doesn't say separates "some" of the particulate matter from the fluid. If the fuel filter in you car let through 10% of the crap it was supposed to keep out, your injectors would be blocked before you got out of your driveway.

[AllanB]

"Having built around 150 pools with all but 3 or 4 having saltwater chlorinators I do not see any abrasive effects on tiles or equipment. Required salt content is only 10% that of seawater & swimming in a salt pool is a much more pleasant experience. If installing a pool ladder then ensure it is made from marine grade stainless steel". If that is true, which surprises me from what I have read, it is still an unnecessary expense and I know of at least one person who had only 3 years use before it packed up. Add the the fact that TIT where everything packs up after 5 minutes and then the simple alternative of buying nothing. I would opt for the latter, though I would concede your point about the slightly more pleasant swimming experience.

"A good waterproof membrane applied to the concrete surface crystalizes inside the concrete giving it an impervious seal. I have seen far too many pools where leaching out from concrete between the tiles leaves a stalagmite type residue which is almost impossible to clean off". I don't know about that, so won't comment without research.

"Sand filters are no more expensive than any other type of filter & if using active filter media, try this link for one of the original companies who pioneered its use, http://www.drydenaqua.com/ require much less backwashing along with very efficient filtration which BTW is a lot easier & less messy than cleaning cartridge filters or DE filters where DE has to be applied on a regular basis".

1. I would request that you put some cost figures against a sand filter set up, including all the additional pipework, valves, labour, etc. and then consider the fact that a plant-room becomes an essential, compared with bag and cartridge filter systems where a simple enclosure is easily possible. If you don't have the space for a big plant-room, then you are left with the hideous option of a subterranean one and then hope like hell it doesn't flood when the rains arrive.

2. Remember too that the level of filtration falls well below that of the other two options, which means you need a cartridge filter in addition to the sand filter to get the same result.

3. Sand filters are impossible to clean 100% and become a breeding ground for algae, Bags and cartridges can be washed out properly and sanitised in a few minutes, so it is no big deal and you know the job is done properly, you can see it. I had a sand filter on my pool in France and every time I back washed it took a different length of time for the water to run clear, I always ran a little longer in case there was some crap that was still stuck. A completely blind system.

4. Add to that, my mains water here is not very clean and I would be replacing dirty water with dirty water, unless I put it through a fine bag filter.

5. Add to that you have to clean this plant-room, the big filter and all the complicated pipework and valves, it isn't the "simply turn a lever" job you make out. This plant room has ventilation slats too, so all the crap blows in, including mosquitos, snakes, spiders and god knows what else. If you don't make the plant-room big enough, you won't get the equipment out when it fails or requires a service and won't be able to work on it.

I think simple systems work better, "what can go wrong, will go wrong", especially here in Thailand Algae is a major problem here and this subject needs addressing, without simply resorting to dumping chemicals into the water. I think an inline bag filter is the way to go, bags are cheap at around 1000 baht and are so simple to clean. You can select your level of filtration too, depending on your needs at any given time, right down to 1 micron.

Mr AllanB I've read through your comments on this and some other threads in the swimming pool forum.

Have you actually ever seen, owned or build a pool or are you just blabbering about something you read somewhere else ?

p.s. : No need to answer, I know already.

To date, I have built just two pools and assisted with another, but spent 15 years as a Control Systems Engineer, so know quite a bit about the subject in discussion, but that is beside the point. This is about the specifics and the maths associated with them, not about people.

If you have a point to debate, please do so, that is the whole purpose of these forums, to learn from each other, get to the truth and improve what we do. You do yourself no favours throwing insults around, when you have no answers.

God knows there is enough bullshit out there, unlike the bikers forum, this one has salesmen involved trying to ply their wares and salesmen have an agenda.

I'm not insulting you, I only try to make clear that everything you post doesn't make any sense.

Same as your discussion in the thread about using bleech as to shock pools.

Valentine has corrected all your mistakes in this thread already, so no need to repeat them and you're right salesman have an agenda, but guess what .

Everything you've posted so far in this and other threads on this forum has been copied from websites with a large agenda.

"Valantine has corrected all your mistakes" he hasn't corrected anything, so by definition everything I have written is correct. Thank you.

.

I am very much aware there are a lot of you guys out there flogging this stuff and making a good living out of it. I have a different viewpoint about what works, without an agenda and expected a fair debate based on science, but it is clear to see that ain't gonna happen.

Edited April 11, 2013 by AllanB

[jbrain]

I'm not insulting you, I only try to make clear that everything you post doesn't make any sense.

Same as your discussion in the thread about using bleech as to shock pools.

Valentine has corrected all your mistakes in this thread already, so no need to repeat them and you're right salesman have an agenda, but guess what .

Everything you've posted so far in this and other threads on this forum has been copied from websites with a large agenda.

"Valantine has corrected all your mistakes" he hasn't corrected anything, so by definition everything I have written is correct. Thank you.

.

Maybe you have some reading issues.

So lets try again

1. Saltwater chlorinators do not take the glaze off tiles. If the glaze comes off it will be due to other reasons.

There are stringent rules when applying pool tiles otherwise they will lift off later.

2. A good waterproof membrane applied to the concrete surface crystalizes inside the concrete giving it an impervious seal. I have seen far too many pools where leaching out from concrete between the tiles leaves a stalagmite type residue which is almost impossible to clean off.

3. BTW it is the sanitising component of the filtration system which kills bacteria i.e. chlorine, ozone, ionizer. Pool filters are purely for water clarity by removing dirt & sediment.

[AllanB]

I'm not insulting you, I only try to make clear that everything you post doesn't make any sense.

Same as your discussion in the thread about using bleech as to shock pools.

Valentine has corrected all your mistakes in this thread already, so no need to repeat them and you're right salesman have an agenda, but guess what .

Everything you've posted so far in this and other threads on this forum has been copied from websites with a large agenda.

"Valantine has corrected all your mistakes" he hasn't corrected anything, so by definition everything I have written is correct. Thank you.

.

Maybe you have some reading issues.

So lets try again

1. Saltwater chlorinators do not take the glaze off tiles. If the glaze comes off it will be due to other reasons.

There are stringent rules when applying pool tiles otherwise they will lift off later.

2. A good waterproof membrane applied to the concrete surface crystalizes inside the concrete giving it an impervious seal. I have seen far too many pools where leaching out from concrete between the tiles leaves a stalagmite type residue which is almost impossible to clean off.

3. BTW it is the sanitising component of the filtration system which kills bacteria i.e. chlorine, ozone, ionizer. Pool filters are purely for water clarity by removing dirt & sediment.

You are not addressing the issues I raised, which is only to be expected, based on what you haven't said so far, but I will reply to your points.

1. False. All water is abrasive, add salt and you increase the rate considerably, when compared with chlorine, then there is the issue of residue. However, this is all relative and the question to be asked is whether there is sufficient salt to do any significant damage? Some say yes, others no, I agree probably not-ish, but on the question of economics I see no reason to make chlorine when you can buy it and simply chuck it in. After all the salt is not free.

2. I never argued with that point so I don't know why you have raised it again. Clutching at straws to be right about something, I guess.

3. And your point is? In any case you are wrong, filters are for separating fluids and suspended particles, they are for cleaning water. Just because water is clear doesn't mean it is clean and water can be cloudy and still safe.

And before you say cleaning is down to sanitation, the two are connected and work in conjunction with each other, or should and this is the point I am making. Completely remove the offending item and you don't need to kill it, which saves chemicals.

Good pool cleaning systems should have 3 elements, circulation, filtration and sanitation. The evidence I have put forward demonstrates that sand filters do their job badly.

1. The high pressure drop across a sand filter greatly reduces flow and therefore circulation is reduced. - Remedied by the use of a bigger, higher pressure pump, which costs more to buy and run.

2. The inability to clean the filter media properly means the effect of sanitation is reduced. - Remedied by adding more chemicals

3. This problem is exacerbated by the tropical climate we have here. So the algae which harbours the health threatening nasties, that remains in the filter, proliferates. - Remedied by extended and repeated water treatment.

So sand filters work, but there is a price to pay, when compared to other forms of pool water filtration.

However, the evidence shows that your guys are not going to address these issues, so I will leave it there, unless you can come up with a debatable point, or two.

[SantiSuk]

I'm not insulting you, I only try to make clear that everything you post doesn't make any sense.

Same as your discussion in the thread about using bleech as to shock pools.

Valentine has corrected all your mistakes in this thread already, so no need to repeat them and you're right salesman have an agenda, but guess what .

Everything you've posted so far in this and other threads on this forum has been copied from websites with a large agenda.

"Valantine has corrected all your mistakes" he hasn't corrected anything, so by definition everything I have written is correct. Thank you.

.

Maybe you have some reading issues.

So lets try again

1. Saltwater chlorinators do not take the glaze off tiles. If the glaze comes off it will be due to other reasons.

There are stringent rules when applying pool tiles otherwise they will lift off later.

2. A good waterproof membrane applied to the concrete surface crystalizes inside the concrete giving it an impervious seal. I have seen far too many pools where leaching out from concrete between the tiles leaves a stalagmite type residue which is almost impossible to clean off.

3. BTW it is the sanitising component of the filtration system which kills bacteria i.e. chlorine, ozone, ionizer. Pool filters are purely for water clarity by removing dirt & sediment.

You are not addressing the issues I raised, which is only to be expected, based on what you haven't said so far, but I will reply to your points.

1. False. All water is abrasive, add salt and you increase the rate considerably, when compared with chlorine, then there is the issue of residue. However, this is all relative and the question to be asked is whether there is sufficient salt to do any significant damage? Some say yes, others no, I agree probably not-ish, but on the question of economics I see no reason to make chlorine when you can buy it and simply chuck it in. After all the salt is not free.

2. I never argued with that point so I don't know why you have raised it again. Clutching at straws to be right about something, I guess.

3. And your point is? In any case you are wrong, filters are for separating fluids and suspended particles, they are for cleaning water. Just because water is clear doesn't mean it is clean and water can be cloudy and still safe.

And before you say cleaning is down to sanitation, the two are connected and work in conjunction with each other, or should and this is the point I am making. Completely remove the offending item and you don't need to kill it, which saves chemicals.

Good pool cleaning systems should have 3 elements, circulation, filtration and sanitation. The evidence I have put forward demonstrates that sand filters do their job badly.

1. The high pressure drop across a sand filter greatly reduces flow and therefore circulation is reduced. - Remedied by the use of a bigger, higher pressure pump, which costs more to buy and run.

2. The inability to clean the filter media properly means the effect of sanitation is reduced. - Remedied by adding more chemicals

3. This problem is exacerbated by the tropical climate we have here. So the algae which harbours the health threatening nasties, that remains in the filter, proliferates. - Remedied by extended and repeated water treatment.

So sand filters work, but there is a price to pay, when compared to other forms of pool water filtration.

However, the evidence shows that your guys are not going to address these issues, so I will leave it there, unless you can come up with a debatable point, or two.

Most of us probably have sand filters, with sand or some other filtration media. Most of us are probably quite happy with the results, which is why we are not all entering the debate with you. I for one am not about to chuck out one system I know works fine for me to replace it with another one, even if it might save me some future pumping costs. Ill be happy to hear of the experience of others who have owned or operated pools with bag filters for a couple of years or more so that I am better informed if an when there is a new buy decision to make.

By all means carry on the 'system wars' on here though. It's kind of entertaining, though its utility for such is decreasing by the page.

PS And thanks very much Allan for your comments about pool rooms (not ). I am now paranoid and find myself peering through the door and scanning the inside every morning. I'm on high snake alert, even though I've never seen one within the walls of our garden!

[cdmtdm]

sorry for the lack of reply, been laid up in hospital with Dengue ....will catchup on the posts and respond in due course ...