Locals Ready To Evacuate As Thai, Cambodian Troops Take Position: Preah Vihear Ruling

[FarangTalk]

It is interesting as the average Cambodian seems much more informed on this issue than any Thai I have spoken to. They understand the Thai viewpoint and argument.

There's also no animosity from Cambodians towards Thais, however the same cannot be said of Thais towards Cambodians (and Burmese, Indians and any other Asian nationalities).

It is important to note also that this is a Cambodian national icon similar to Angkor Wat, much the same as Ayutthaya is for Thailand.

Cambodia does not have many UNESCO World Heritage Sites either, so you can guarantee they will fight tooth and nail to keep this one.

[mancub]

Its just a bloody temple - as much as I am all in favour of maintaining historic buildings - if it comes to a battle and bloodshed over a xxxxxxx building...jeeesus...blow the damned thing up.

It is NOT worth a human life - not at all.

Worse than that. It's not about the temple. It's about a couple of square kms of scrubland.

It's not even about the scrubland...it's only about the loss of face and political leverage attached.

[farangbanok]

I'm not a geography expert, I'm not a cartographer, I'm not an ICJ judge - I'm a only a simple banok BUT I am logical.

• SOLUTION1 (without ICJ): If the disputed land is BELOW the escarpment then it is Cambodian - if at the top of the escarpment it is Thailand's. But then I said I was simple.

• SOLUTION2 (without ICJ): Since the entrance door of the temple is on the Thailand side then Thai territory can end at THAT wall thus the Cambodians must say "Pretty please!" to take their teeming(??) tourists into the Wat.

Crazy solutions for a crazier problem .... but again I did say that I am simple. Oh, of course, I don't have any "face" to lose because I am only a simple banok not a HiSo politico from Khrung Thep!

[LeeThayer]

Thailand, the hub of stupid xxxxx!

Edited April 13, 2013 by metisdead
Profanity

[whybother]

The nationalist fascists wearing yellow shirts are at the border now trying to inflame the situation into conflict.

Someone should put a leash on them for starters.

If the Thai and Cambodian armies start fighting because of a few yellow shirt protesters, they've got no one to blame but themselves.

The nationalist Yellow Shirts are the whole reason this affair has occured. The governments they ousted had already agreed to support Cambodia's application for UNESCO World Heritage status for Preah Vihear temple.

That's no reason for the armies to start shooting each other.

[whybother]

It is interesting as the average Cambodian seems much more informed on this issue than any Thai I have spoken to. They understand the Thai viewpoint and argument.

There's also no animosity from Cambodians towards Thais, however the same cannot be said of Thais towards Cambodians (and Burmese, Indians and any other Asian nationalities).

It is important to note also that this is a Cambodian national icon similar to Angkor Wat, much the same as Ayutthaya is for Thailand.

Cambodia does not have many UNESCO World Heritage Sites either, so you can guarantee they will fight tooth and nail to keep this one.

Does that mean that all Thailand needs to do is make the temple a national icon and they'll get possession of it?

It seems the Cambodians are more informed than you on this issue. Cambodia aren't fighting tooth and nail to keep this site. Thailand isn't trying to take it off them, since they have (grudgingly) accepted the 1962 decision that the temple belongs to Cambodia. What they are and have been fighting about since then is the adjoining land.

[FarangTalk]

It is interesting as the average Cambodian seems much more informed on this issue than any Thai I have spoken to. They understand the Thai viewpoint and argument.

There's also no animosity from Cambodians towards Thais, however the same cannot be said of Thais towards Cambodians (and Burmese, Indians and any other Asian nationalities).

It is important to note also that this is a Cambodian national icon similar to Angkor Wat, much the same as Ayutthaya is for Thailand.

Cambodia does not have many UNESCO World Heritage Sites either, so you can guarantee they will fight tooth and nail to keep this one.

Does that mean that all Thailand needs to do is make the temple a national icon and they'll get possession of it?

It seems the Cambodians are more informed than you on this issue. Cambodia aren't fighting tooth and nail to keep this site. Thailand isn't trying to take it off them, since they have (grudgingly) accepted the 1962 decision that the temple belongs to Cambodia. What they are and have been fighting about since then is the adjoining land.

I said Cambodia will fight tooth and nail. Learn to read and comprehend properly.

Have the Thais accepted the 1962 decision over the temple? I don't think so. The fact that they refused to lower the Thai flag and instead dug up the flagpole before leaving the temple then planting it on a nearby hillside indicates a belligerence over the decision that still exists today.

Cambodia is asking for clarification on the adjacent land after the PAD stirred up national sentiment over the UNESCO ruling. Thailand knows it has no claim over the temple, the adjacent land is the only straw left to clutch.

How can it be a Thai national icon when it was built during the Khmer empire? They didn't even exist when it was built.

Where are the nationalist Cambodians staging militant protest at the temple site? Oh, that's right, there aren't any.

[Dibbler]

It is interesting as the average Cambodian seems much more informed on this issue than any Thai I have spoken to. They understand the Thai viewpoint and argument.

There's also no animosity from Cambodians towards Thais, however the same cannot be said of Thais towards Cambodians (and Burmese, Indians and any other Asian nationalities).

It is important to note also that this is a Cambodian national icon similar to Angkor Wat, much the same as Ayutthaya is for Thailand.

Cambodia does not have many UNESCO World Heritage Sites either, so you can guarantee they will fight tooth and nail to keep this one.

Does that mean that all Thailand needs to do is make the temple a national icon and they'll get possession of it?

It seems the Cambodians are more informed than you on this issue. Cambodia aren't fighting tooth and nail to keep this site. Thailand isn't trying to take it off them, since they have (grudgingly) accepted the 1962 decision that the temple belongs to Cambodia. What they are and have been fighting about since then is the adjoining land.

It's true that what is at stake is less than 5 square kilometres of land, but perhaps more importantly, access to a potentially highly lucrative cultural icon (the Preah Vihear temple) that can be sold to a concessionaire, as was done with the Angkor Temple http://www.talesofasia.com/cambodia-sokimex.htm If Cambodia gains unrestricted access to this land, they can boast they won the issue over Thailand and stand to secure votes ahead of the election, but more importantly for the most senior level people in government, they can move ahead and sell the rights to all tourist access for a huge amount of money, most likely many times what the entire landscape around the temple and down the hill to the lowlands might be worth for farming, mining, or other purposes. Yes the government is fighting tooth and nail for this opportunity and it's important to keep this facts about the motivation for this fight in perspective.

[whybother]

It is interesting as the average Cambodian seems much more informed on this issue than any Thai I have spoken to. They understand the Thai viewpoint and argument.

There's also no animosity from Cambodians towards Thais, however the same cannot be said of Thais towards Cambodians (and Burmese, Indians and any other Asian nationalities).

It is important to note also that this is a Cambodian national icon similar to Angkor Wat, much the same as Ayutthaya is for Thailand.

Cambodia does not have many UNESCO World Heritage Sites either, so you can guarantee they will fight tooth and nail to keep this one.

Does that mean that all Thailand needs to do is make the temple a national icon and they'll get possession of it?

It seems the Cambodians are more informed than you on this issue. Cambodia aren't fighting tooth and nail to keep this site. Thailand isn't trying to take it off them, since they have (grudgingly) accepted the 1962 decision that the temple belongs to Cambodia. What they are and have been fighting about since then is the adjoining land.

I said Cambodia will fight tooth and nail. Learn to read and comprehend properly.

Have the Thais accepted the 1962 decision over the temple? I don't think so. The fact that they refused to lower the Thai flag and instead dug up the flagpole before leaving the temple then planting it on a nearby hillside indicates a belligerence over the decision that still exists today.

Cambodia is asking for clarification on the adjacent land after the PAD stirred up national sentiment over the UNESCO ruling. Thailand knows it has no claim over the temple, the adjacent land is the only straw left to clutch.

How can it be a Thai national icon when it was built during the Khmer empire? They didn't even exist when it was built.

Where are the nationalist Cambodians staging militant protest at the temple site? Oh, that's right, there aren't any.

Yes ... you said "Cambodia does not have many UNESCO World Heritage Sites either, so you can guarantee they will fight tooth and nail to keep this one."

No one is trying to take it off them. They don't need to fight to keep it.

As I said, Thailand "(grudgingly) accepted the 1962 decision". They left. That sounds like accepting the decision to me. Taking the flag pole is belligerence, but they still left.

Hun Sen didn't need to organise nationalist militant protesters. He sent his son and army instead.

Edited April 13, 2013 by whybother

[Baerboxer]

It is interesting as the average Cambodian seems much more informed on this issue than any Thai I have spoken to. They understand the Thai viewpoint and argument.

There's also no animosity from Cambodians towards Thais, however the same cannot be said of Thais towards Cambodians (and Burmese, Indians and any other Asian nationalities).

It is important to note also that this is a Cambodian national icon similar to Angkor Wat, much the same as Ayutthaya is for Thailand.

Cambodia does not have many UNESCO World Heritage Sites either, so you can guarantee they will fight tooth and nail to keep this one.

How many "average" Cambodians have you discussed this with, before forming your informative opinions?

[starkey_rich]

Thailand can not cope with the amount of tourist they have at the moment.Now they want to add someone else's tourist attraction

[atyclb]

If these two children can't get along, someone should take their toys off both of them - or teach them how to share. List the whole area as a neutral zone - no man's land with equal ownership / access allowed - throw up a casino and a fair ground for everyone to have some fun there, instead of the hateful games of a few.

It's all very well for posters nowhere near the potential skirmishes, sat there safe, and bloatedly talking of hysteria - nationalistic posturing, etc - but these are very real facts if you're in these bordering areas.. I have heard / felt short exchanges of heavy weapons over the last couple of weeks, as I did the long ones of the last round, and it's quite sobering to say the least - if you're here within range of these fools, laws of probability and confident speeches go out of the window, when you are being told to have to think of evacuation, or outrunning a stray shell, or when the hysteria kicks in later, once they are firing - being woken up at 2 in the morning, and being told the Cambodian army has crossed the border through the forests, and are coming firm handed with guns - and being handed a gun, and being asked if you know how to use it - this is real, even though it's 'not', and not funny by any means - it actually makes your blood run cold. What's equally worrying is that you invariably never hear of these brief exchanges in the news - disconcertingly only with your own ears - so of course, they never happened.

We already went through it last time - our village was evacuated 4-5 times, and thousands of people were displaced in these areas - at the behest of a few, and their precious stubby nosed (that they can't seem to see past) concept of face, people lost their lives - is this not a disproportionate price to pay over a bit of dirt and some concrete ? Many of these border villages got no back up, or boistrous rallies of national solidarity and pride when Polpot's red army marched in, and took many away, never to return - my village has residents that were forced to kill, and witness / commit all manner of attrocities, and it seemed no-one batted an eyelid then, and these people were only just recently apologised to, and 'compensated' - so what is the big deal about this historical 'holy' site ? I constantly find it ridiculous that symbols synonymous with enlightenment and inner peace should be the centre of such trouble - in this case, trouble instigated by buddhists.

I would say the people in these border areas have been through enough already, over the Years - work it out, or let go - in real terms, I think the poor people here just want peace - I don't think the 'ownership' of this temple would change anyones lives 'here', nor would they be affected by, or give a shit who owns it really, in the long run. Stop fighting and gloating - like some people have said, there are much more important 'real' issues to be getting on with - or is it easier to use this as a distraction, so real issues can be placed on the back burner, and other 'issues' go unnoticed ?

Let the buggers making these calls from drinkies at the lodge, or driving their Ferraris to the golf course come and sit in the middle of it, or come and sit in one of the bunkers at the local infant / junior school with their kids, and see if they change their tune or not. Posturing at the little man's expense, as usual - how about growing a set of balls and some real adult action - sitting down, and working out a real long term amicable solution, or even respecting the courts ruling, instead of hiding behind these ridiculous oversized appendages they wish they had been endowed with naturally. What's really at stake here ? National pride ? Please....

.

"Face" is the substitute for substance, for which there is very little in society. If they ever fix their education system and produce a populous capable of independent, critical, intellectual curiosity and analytical thinking then "face" should fade away. UNtil that day, Image (face) over substance shall prevail

[sjjmmi]

N/S Korea in the making

[Robby nz]

No its not really about the temple or the surrounding land.

The important thing for both sides is to have a cover up for what's going on behind the scenes on the far more important marine boundries, in that case there's oil involved and big money.

And for the one who thinks elections matter to Hun sen, he's a dictator mate and regardless of who wins any elections he will remain so.

[davidstipek]

First of all hear me out, I have sent you a lot of advice in the past year. Whether or not you read any of it, is okay.
But I think this is the best solution to date.

For Problem at hand:

All Countries, not just Thailand and Cambodia, (But they could set working example) should consider this Idea. All Individuals living in these areas will continue be Citizens and be issued the rights and privilege’s due them from their respective Countries.

1: All Countries with Boarder disputes involving Sandstone or Religious sites will jointly list or submit to become "World Heritage Sites"

2: All property within these boundaries will continue to pay taxes, to a Fund set-up to support the maintenance and well-being of these areas involved. These Deposited funds will be matched yearly by both or any Country(ies )involved. Each Country Involved will be able to claim areas involved as their Own Sovereignty and Posted as such on all Maps involved. Boarders entering and Leaving will be Posted as Such and contain Representative’s from all 3 Parties Involved - Thailand, Country Involved, W.H.Foundation. With final answer to be binding from WHF.

3: Area Maintainence:Odd years (ending in 1, 3, 5, 7, 9) will have the additional care and control of Thai Government.

4: Area Maintainence: Even Years (ending in 2, 4, 6, 8,) will be under the additional care of other concerned Country involved.

5: Each site will be separate in its agreement. All Sites will be overseen by a joint staff of Members of World Heritage Foundation consisting of Members of all Counties Involved and Interested Parties or Countries. (Example: United Nations, USA, Myself, Cambodia, Laos, Myanmar ... and to the south of Thailand etc.). Any disputes arising in these areas will be handled and resolved by this Foundation, will be Posted for 30 days so all involved Provinces will be able to voice concerns and be binding to all involved at final reading! Any modifications will be handled and presented to Countries and Provinces involved with same 30 day Posting/Ruling.

6: All matters concerning boarders in these areas be addressed by Foundation. All legal rules or laws will take into consideration, this will include a complete study of Concerned laws by both counties involved in Areas in Question. No Military from any Country would have Legal, Personal or any other interest or Occupation of areas Concerned.

7: All History concerning areas of question will be maintained and honored for all involved. Militaries from Countries affected in each area of concern will Defend and protect from any outside force, be able to ask and receive additional support from United Nations if cause should rise.

8: All Landowners in areas of concern will continue to own their respected properties. They will be issued Special Tax stamps to protect from provinces involved the levying of additional taxes and with the use of Special Tax Stamp, be open to special financing for the improvement of the properties concerned. This privilege will be offered to involved personnel with established residence in the concerned areas.

9: Visitor’s from Thailand needing Visa to visit will purchase from Cambodia, Laos, Myanmar to Honor this Countries effort to support this agreement, and vise-versa any visitor wishing to exit the for-named Countries will purchase Visa from Thailand. This would apply only to Visitors who would normally need Visa to leave Thailand and enter again the Countries for-mentioned. And those who would need to visit Thailand. It would not affect any Nationals of any Boarder Countries to Visit, they would visit as if they were in there home country still (Protecting and honoring everyone involved countries sovereignty.

Edited April 13, 2013 by davidstipek
Font, Arial, size 14.

[Dap]

This is an odd situation, politically. Will those two 'eternal brothers ' and respective leadersof their governments allow anything more than nationalistic posturing to take place over this issue? Both have much bigger fish to fry.

"Both have much bigger fish to fry." Well said K.BB

[Dap]

I doubt either side will adhere to the ICJ ruling - certainly Thai's will not give up land. Perhaps even though the temple is a WH listed item, perhaps a stray shell and its demolishment could solve the issue then no one will care. But of course, just saying...

Lots more saber rattling, nothing more.

Whilst we all have our opinions, I will gladly extend an invitation to you when the ' sabre rattling ' starts. Then you can experience at first hand just what it is like to live near the border -- guns firing and incoming shells exploding all around. Also in the last round of ' sabre rattling ', one of our family was killed. please join us by all means.....

Please, no offence intended. Could be a good idea to start packing instead of waiting for he next round. And yes, I am well aware of what it's like to experience "guns firing and incoming shells exploding all around." You can always return after the lunacy subsides, safely then. Either way, I wish you good luck with any decision you make.

[khunken]

It is interesting as the average Cambodian seems much more informed on this issue than any Thai I have spoken to. They understand the Thai viewpoint and argument.

There's also no animosity from Cambodians towards Thais, however the same cannot be said of Thais towards Cambodians (and Burmese, Indians and any other Asian nationalities).

It is important to note also that this is a Cambodian national icon similar to Angkor Wat, much the same as Ayutthaya is for Thailand.

Cambodia does not have many UNESCO World Heritage Sites either, so you can guarantee they will fight tooth and nail to keep this one.

How many "average" Cambodians have you discussed this with, before forming your informative opinions?

Yes. Seemingly ignoring that the Cambodians burned down the Thai embassy in Phom Penh a few years ago over some silly soap opera. It takes two to tango but some seem to think that it's all Thailand's fault.

The dispute is not over the temple but the land providing access to it. Thailand is well within it's rights to fight (legally) over land it regards as its own

[dunque]

The nationalist fascists wearing yellow shirts are at the border now trying to inflame the situation into conflict.

Someone should put a leash on them for starters.

Not such a good idea to be in a potential shooting match while wearing a yellow shirt - would make an easy target.

[PoodMaiDai]

It would be nice if the largest gun they could use was a water canon.

That is all kids should be allowed to play with anyway.

[hellodolly]

Its just a bloody temple - as much as I am all in favour of maintaining historic buildings - if it comes to a battle and bloodshed over a xxxxxxx building...jeeesus...blow the damned thing up.

It is NOT worth a human life - not at all.

The Temple is not the issue.

Makes no sense to blow the building up as the property it was on will still be Cambodia's.

It is OK to have an opinion but place it where it belongs and wanton destruction of property that the ownership of is agreed on by both sides is idiotic.

[hellodolly]

What will be interesting is if the court decides it is Cambodia's.

What will the PT do then. They claim it was started by the yellow shirts who later turned in to being there allies by withholding there votes for the opposition.

Will the PT go to war for them as the yellow shirts urged the Dems to do with a limited bit of success.

Wouldn't it be nice if Thailand won and said we would rather turn this thing into a joint venture for the over all improvement of relations and economic benefit to the people in the region.

The same if Cambodia wins even though it would be more of an economic gain for Thailand.

[Buchholz]

.

Lordy, Yingluck's government has another "War Room"...

.

[Buchholz]

Preah Vihear war room set up

Thailand is turning the Government House into the command centre, ahead of the hearing on the international dispute on Preah Vihear.

The hearing will run from April 15 to 19.

The prime minister, ministers and army leaders are expected to observe it at the command centre.

A war room on the second floor will be manned by PM’s Secretary Suranand Vejjajiva.

From here, the team will monitor the hearing and keep the public updated through a TV programme on Channel 11.

-- The Nation 2013-04-13

[jbrain]

Preah Vihear war room set up

Thailand is turning the Government House into the command centre, ahead of the hearing on the international dispute on Preah Vihear.

The hearing will run from April 15 to 19.

The prime minister, ministers and army leaders are expected to observe it at the command centre.

A war room on the second floor will be manned by PM’s Secretary Suranand Vejjajiva.

From here, the team will monitor the hearing and keep the public updated through a TV programme on Channel 11.

-- The Nation 2013-04-13

I only wonder if the broadcasting signal will fade when the ICJ says something in the line of Thailand is in the wrong.

[justathought]

this is a very difficult situation. I can well understand either side rejecting the ruling. When 'holy ground' is involved, you can never expect peace. UN and other bodies with international authority are often ignored. Many parts of Asia have similar problems. In India you had the UN ruling that gave Kashmir the right to independence but India rejected it and continues its occupation.

[Buchholz]

.

Team heads to Hague for Preah Vihear case

A high-level delegation led by Deputy Prime Minister and Foreign Minister Surapong Towichukchaikul left for The Hague yesterday to make the Kingdom's case in the International Court of Justice hearing over the Preah Vihear land dispute with Cambodia.

Joining him in the team are Defence Minister General Sukampol Suwannathat, Defence Ministry deputy permanent secretary-general Nipat Thonglek and other high-ranking military officials.

The court hearing in the Dutch city is scheduled to be held from tomorrow to Friday. The Cambodian government has asked the court to reinterpret its 1962 decision awarding sovereignty over Preah Vihear to Cambodia, to determine whether 4.6 square kilometres of scrubland near the temple belongs to Cambodia or Thailand.

Surapong said before leaving the country that the Thai team is ready to give its final verbal statement to the court and has prepared complete information covering every development in the dispute since 1962. He added that the court is expected to issue a ruling in September or October.

Surapong urged Thais to follow live coverage of the Thai team's delivery of its final statement at the ICJ on Channel 11, FM 92.5, AM 891 and Saranrom radio station. The Foreign Ministry has set up a team to answer the public's questions related to the case. Issues that need to be clarified will also be presented in Thai and English on the Foreign Ministry's website.

"I would like the public to listen and follow the case with an open mind as they hear academics and critics provide their views on the case," he said.

"We are confident in the process of justice at the ICJ, as it has issued rulings in many international disputes. The court has taken into account peace between countries," he said.

Surapong said Prime Minister Yingluck Shinawatra offered the team moral support, urging members to do their best and asking them to answer Thais' questions on the case. "We are fighting this case for every Thai. We are going to protect our country's sovereignty. We will do our best," he said.

Verapat Pariyawong, an independent legal expert with a background in ICJ cases, said it appeared Cambodia's request for an interpretation of the 1962 ruling was aimed at "extending the scope" of the original ICJ verdict.

He noted that the original ICJ verdict stated clearly that the world court was not empowered to make any ruling regarding boundaries or maps. The verdict focused solely on the question as to which country held sovereignty over the Preah Vihear Temple, whether Thailand had to withdraw its troops from the temple ruins, and whether the Kingdom had to return ancient Khmer artefacts to Cambodia.

"I don't think Cambodia's goal is to have the court make a 'clearer verdict' about the original case. They want the verdict changed, or its scope extended. Judging from this fact, it is possible that the court may reject the request for interpretation," Verapat said.

Sukampol dismissed concerns over border tensions, saying the situation is normal though people from the two countries are aware that the ICJ hearing is to be held this week. He said he had not ordered tighter security on the border, but has instructed the military to prevent a group that has been campaigning against accepting the court's decision - an apparent reference to the People's Alliance for Democracy - from provoking violence.

"We have explained to the group that it is impossible not to accept the court decision. They have not accepted our reason and we do not know why. We just have to prevent them from instigating violence. They can express their political opinion and we will provide areas for them to access [for this purpose]," the defence minister said.

Meanwhile, Democrat Party Surat Thani MP Suthep Thaugsuban said he felt that the government had compromised over the Preah Vihear land dispute, and that this has made Thais uncomfortable. He said if the government fights to the best of its ability, the country would not lose the 4.6 square kilometres of territory.

"The court will rule in accordance with the evidence, so it depends if we present solid evidence. What I am worried about is whether their heart is in it. If not, we have nothing with which to fight them," he said.


-- The Nation 2013-04-14

[hellodolly]

Preah Vihear war room set up

Thailand is turning the Government House into the command centre, ahead of the hearing on the international dispute on Preah Vihear.

The hearing will run from April 15 to 19.

The prime minister, ministers and army leaders are expected to observe it at the command centre.

A war room on the second floor will be manned by PM’s Secretary Suranand Vejjajiva.

From here, the team will monitor the hearing and keep the public updated through a TV programme on Channel 11.

-- The Nation 2013-04-13

why not just turn it over to Chalerm. He can sort it out in 90 days. That is his trade mark the 90 day flopper.

[jbrain]

Preah Vihear war room set up

Thailand is turning the Government House into the command centre, ahead of the hearing on the international dispute on Preah Vihear.

The hearing will run from April 15 to 19.

The prime minister, ministers and army leaders are expected to observe it at the command centre.

A war room on the second floor will be manned by PM’s Secretary Suranand Vejjajiva.

From here, the team will monitor the hearing and keep the public updated through a TV programme on Channel 11.

-- The Nation 2013-04-13

why not just turn it over to Chalerm. He can sort it out in 90 days. That is his trade mark the 90 day flopper.

90 days? He re-wrote the whole constitution over the weekend .

[Thaddeus]

.

-- The Nation 2013-04-14

Looks like some one needs to phone a friend, and wait for the friend to call back after he calls the eternal friend.

It's all about the oil under the gulf and how to divvy it up, it has nothing to do with a pile of rocks and a bit of scrubland.

However, I am prepared to hear the sound of shelling as I did two years ago just for the sake of our great and industrious leader.