Why Not More Solar Energy?

[laislica]

Hmmmm,

Again, it's got a very long way to go before being cost-effective in locations anywhere close to mains power lines.

All the success stories are subsidised experiments or PR exercises - which is great, should be more - but don't think it makes any economic sense unless you need to/want to live out in the bush where there won't be any power line for decades.

Campervans and yachts are good use cases.

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Little details followup - the yes very expensive deep-cycle batteries are usually available second-hand at periodic auctions from telcos, and will even then often last 3-6 more years of regular use if properly sized and maintained.

AC conversion is very wasteful, better whenever possible to use lights and electronics designed for DC in the first place, like dichroic halogen bulbs and automotive AV gear.

Extreme reduction and conservation in usage has to be combined with alternative production for any alternative energy to make sense in practice.

Sounds easy when you say it fast.

The problem with camper vans is that you try like hell to park em in the shade, otherwise you are living in an oven.

Secondly, the output wattage goes down as the panel's temperature rises. To get the rated output you need to be somewhere with minus temperatures, full sun and the ability to point the panel in the optimised direction throughout the day. All that glitters is not gold!

As to DC lighting, it's just not efficient compared to the low wattage coiled florescent lamps. The waste heat generated in the conversion via an inverter is away from the living space, the heat given off from a DC lamp is uncomfortably warm, can be a fire hazard etc.

There is no need for space heating here, power for a TV and a few lights and fans - not aircon.

Oh and the chargers for the latest iPhones and tablets LOL

High wattage systems like kettles, food processors, washing machines, aircon etc need a generator.

If you are going to install big batteries, consider using fork lift truck batteries.

As to yachts, the small wind gens do an awesome job and I'm not sure if a solar panel would be rugged enough unless your yacht is huge of course.

I have read that Tessla invented a power generator that collects it's energy from the universe and the design was stopped. Now if that could be made to work..........

I'm sure that Dancealot would be overjoyed. Truly free energy (after the initial startup costs)

Is that you? Laislica? Havent seen you around for months.. Hi!

I am an idealist yes. Often this means not a realist also. I like to dream and in this case love to look at some houses people have built how ugly they may seem are totally self maintained, energy wise. I remember that first Casio wrist watch with solar panels on them and their first solar powered calculator!

I was amazed back in the 80's and as a bright kid i thought already.. "Hmmm duracell is not going to like this".

Later it turned out to power up my RC turbo panther remote controlled toy car, solar cells didnt provide enough power.

"Sigh, back to Duracell"

That was 30 years ago! If develeopment of alternative energy was encouraged more the world would be a different place. I am sure!

I am talking about gas, fire, water and electricity. And my ideal situation. No washing machine/ no airco, etc...

Only thing i want power for is a few lights, notebook or 2, small fridge and a TV. Thats my ideal situation.

It is not so difficult if you live in a warm country. More difficult indeed like posters have stated and i like to rephrase one of the funniest lines in this thread, excuse me i cant remember the posters'name.

"I saw one house with solar panels completely covered in snow"

True, true nothing is perfect.

Doens't take away the fact that using solar power is pretty smart. Many of my neighbours in The Netherlands who can afford them are already generating so much electricity they have too much and will supply to the power companies.

I want this also, a big gas bottle and an electrical or natural water heating system in my house.

Being independant is what it is all about to me.

On a small consumer scale Solar energy is the way to go!

Yep, it's me, been busy.....

In Spain I have a water heating panel on the roof of my house and it is fine unless there is more of a week with no sun (never happens lol, well not very often).

The real prob with VSP's if that the environmental cost to make em rather outweighs many benefits.

[chiang mai]

Posters should drive from Chiang Mai to Tak, on the right hand side of the road just before entering Tak are two very large solar farms, each containg several hundred panels, similar farms exist elsewhere nearby.

Aye, near my village in the south of Spain there are two huge tilting and rotating collectors that are used to power a large factory.

Nearby there are many static panel farms for the mains grid.

Spain!!!

[Dancealot]

Posters should drive from Chiang Mai to Tak, on the right hand side of the road just before entering Tak are two very large solar farms, each containg several hundred panels, similar farms exist elsewhere nearby.

Aye, near my village in the south of Spain there are two huge tilting and rotating collectors that are used to power a large factory.

Nearby there are many static panel farms for the mains grid.

Spain!!!

Yes! And the climate there is ideal for storing solar energy. I gather this is what is meant by 'static'.

[chiang mai]

Perhaps the Mods can move to the Spanish forum.

[aussiebebe]

I have lived here for the last 9 years and yes you can sell back to the power company, just 6 months ago you could get 11 baht per kw but it has gone down to 7.5 baht per kw over the last 2 months and it is getting harder to get the electric company to pass a system, I am at the moment installing 5.88kw x 2 as one is for his home and the other is for his factory. Plus many other projects. AND have installed many a kw in the past.

Ring your local electric company and just ask them if it is OK for you to install solar. Around here they love it. A grid tie inverter will only put electric back into the grid if there is electric. So if you have a power cut it will stop working,

Thanks for sharing that, Feesbay John, I didn't know that was possible in Thailand.

I recently saw a product on Clickbank called Earth4Energy which shows how to assemble solar panels but assumed it was a scam; so you are actually making your own panels, are you? That's impressive.

In answer to the OP, solar will become more widespread when the efficiency of panels increases. The latest I read is that graphene-base cells might be the answer but scientists are still working out how to cheaply mass-produce graphene.

[laislica]

High wattage systems like kettles, food processors, washing machines, aircon etc need a generator.

More rubbish.

How come I had a toaster, washing machine and didn't ever have a generator.

Get your facts right, please.

BTW my batteries eventually died when my renter ran his welder off my inverter to fix up his Holden.

The batteries were 20 years old!

To run high power devices solely on Solar needs a big inverter. I have many friends in Spain who live in the Styx and only have solar.

With a 2 Kw inverter many things can be run but the surge taken by washing machines etc will overcome the inverter - gen or bigger one, up to you. As you found, overload it and it will die.

A modest system if OK (ish) you have to think constantly about the power load.

A big system is much more convenient but costs a lot more.

Depends on your budget to a large extent.

It might have been more useful if you had taken the time to state the size of your system, the VSP voltage/battery voltage because as I'm sure you know, high power low DC voltage systems need large capacity wiring and copper losses can become an issue.

A=W/V, 2000/12=166 amps plus the loss of efficiency in the inverter.

Gauge 2AWG or 7.3 mm dia copper wire is good for about 200 amps.

A 24 volt system draws half the current, 36v one third etc but there are maximum limits on the configuration of panels. Units in parallel without diode protection may suffer from circulating currents in the same way that parallel batteries do.

But good to hear tht whatever system you had - it worked well until it didn't.

[laislica]

Posters should drive from Chiang Mai to Tak, on the right hand side of the road just before entering Tak are two very large solar farms, each containg several hundred panels, similar farms exist elsewhere nearby.

Aye, near my village in the south of Spain there are two huge tilting and rotating collectors that are used to power a large factory.

Nearby there are many static panel farms for the mains grid.

Spain!!!

Yes! And the climate there is ideal for storing solar energy. I gather this is what is meant by 'static'.

Static refers to VSP's that do not follow the sun.

[laislica]

Perhaps the Mods can move to the Spanish forum.

Yes, why not, this thread is about Solar not country and I have a lot of experience gained by living in a semi desert climate.

[Feesbay John]

I have lived here for the last 9 years and yes you can sell back to the power company, just 6 months ago you could get 11 baht per kw but it has gone down to 7.5 baht per kw over the last 2 months and it is getting harder to get the electric company to pass a system, I am at the moment installing 5.88kw x 2 as one is for his home and the other is for his factory. Plus many other projects. AND have installed many a kw in the past.

Ring your local electric company and just ask them if it is OK for you to install solar. Around here they love it. A grid tie inverter will only put electric back into the grid if there is electric. So if you have a power cut it will stop working,

Thanks for sharing that, Feesbay John, I didn't know that was possible in Thailand.

I recently saw a product on Clickbank called Earth4Energy which shows how to assemble solar panels but assumed it was a scam; so you are actually making your own panels, are you? That's impressive.

In answer to the OP, solar will become more widespread when the efficiency of panels increases. The latest I read is that graphene-base cells might be the answer but scientists are still working out how to cheaply mass-produce graphene.

The main reason we have them is not to sell back the power BUT to be able to use electric and have no or a some bill each month. back in the UK it is a 10 year investment BUT here and with the cost going down for solar it takes about 5 years to get your money back. Making your own solar panels is not as hard as some people think. But it is now getting just as cheap to buy factory panels when looking at the time it takes.

So many people on here are talking about what you can not run and what they think one can run instead of looking at the facts. With a grid tie inverter you do not need a battery bank or a dc to ac inverter. Just use your electric as you would before, if on the grid that is, if not then you would need a battery bank and a grid tie is no good for you. People are also saying how expensive battery's are here, a 3K Deep Cycle 125ah battery cost about 5,300 baht. You can also get a 190ah for around 7,000 baht

I did a test on a FLUORESCENT bulb and my water well pump. If I was to leave a light on all night it would cost about 165 baht per month as my well pump is only on when the water tank gets down and switches off when full. It cost me about 150 baht per month less than a light left on. I have since changed the bulbs to LED which is much cheaper.

Did you no a fluorescent light can take up to 100 times more electric when it is switched on were most appliances only take 5 to 10 times ( Surge ) They say if you have a fluorescent light that is turned on and off more than 6 times in a night leave it on as it is cheaper.

[FunFon]

It is important to note in those lucky locations where the government subsidises purchase and use of these technologies, their true-market costs and paybacks then become completely artificial (in a good way IMO) but this means any economic basis for decision-making becomes as arbitrary to that jurisdiction as for example methods available for your accountant to creatively reduce your tax burden.
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I still maintain, unless you're willing to invest more in your solar system than you would in the actual construction of your home, this statement remains true:

High wattage systems like kettles, food processors, washing machines, aircon etc need a generator.

A very powerful generator, especially of the old style still often used in India and other third-world countries can be purchased for so little money it is 100% insane from a financial point of view to try to match its output with solar panels.

IMO solar and wind and methane etc's role at the self-sufficient householder level is to trickle-charge the batteries to enable running lights and solid-state electronics, other low loads for days/weeks at a time without every using the generator.

The generator is used on washing day, when power tools are needed maybe aircon (IMO insane, you haven't designed your home and site properly) and to top up the batteries if your location occasionally goes for periods without sufficient sun.

Keep in mind for perspective the above is oriented around my own pretty extensive experience, but in the context of owner-built housing in intentional communities off the grid, where the total cost per homestead including all power systems is not much more than a year or two's average income per capita for that country.

Edited April 17, 2013 by FunFon

[jbrain]

I have lived here for the last 9 years and yes you can sell back to the power company, just 6 months ago you could get 11 baht per kw but it has gone down to 7.5 baht per kw over the last 2 months and it is getting harder to get the electric company to pass a system, I am at the moment installing 5.88kw x 2 as one is for his home and the other is for his factory. Plus many other projects. AND have installed many a kw in the past.

Ring your local electric company and just ask them if it is OK for you to install solar. Around here they love it. A grid tie inverter will only put electric back into the grid if there is electric. So if you have a power cut it will stop working,

Sorry to be sceptic, but my last bill was 3,9 Baht per KWh , so the electric company buy's back electric from you at twice or tripple the rate they are selling it ?

Something doesn't add up in my opinion.

[chiang mai]

I have lived here for the last 9 years and yes you can sell back to the power company, just 6 months ago you could get 11 baht per kw but it has gone down to 7.5 baht per kw over the last 2 months and it is getting harder to get the electric company to pass a system, I am at the moment installing 5.88kw x 2 as one is for his home and the other is for his factory. Plus many other projects. AND have installed many a kw in the past.

Ring your local electric company and just ask them if it is OK for you to install solar. Around here they love it. A grid tie inverter will only put electric back into the grid if there is electric. So if you have a power cut it will stop working,

Sorry to be sceptic, but my last bill was 3,9 Baht per KWh , so the electric company buy's back electric from you at twice or tripple the rate they are selling it ?

Something doesn't add up in my opinion.

The ratio in the UK was/is even greater.

[apetley]

Yes it's all the evil oil companies, easy to run the airbus a380 on electric power

and how do you produce the electricity to power all the cars in the west, with coal fired plants or by adding more nuclear reactors ?

There is a British company, ITM, that has a solution to produce hydrogen from renewable sources.

In the not so distant future it will be cost effective to generate and store your own hydrogen that can be used to power your car and home.

Why would you need to produce hydrogen from renewable sources?It is the most abundant chemical element in the universe,making up 75% of normal matter by mass and over 90% by number of atoms!

Lithium-Ion batteries power today's Teslas,S-Class Mercedes,Chevrolet Volts etc.

There is a massive cost to the enviroment to be paid for extracting Lithium from places like Southern Bolivia's Salar De Uyuni, a little-known but expansive desert of cactus,rainwater lagoons and ten billion tons of salt covering nearly 5,000 square miles.The US Geological Survey claims at least 5.4 million tons of lithium could be extracted in Salar De Uyuni, while another report puts it as high as nine million tons.

For local populations,life could easily start to mirror the scene from last year's James Bond film Quantum of Solace,in which wells dry up after water is stolen by the film's baddie and villagers are forced to join collectives to buy their share.Far from being outlandish,the film may prove particularly pertinent as local South American populations find themselves having to buy water after big mining companies suck the land dry!

I'm pretty sure that most solar panel manufacturers prefer Lithium-Ion batteries over AGM VRLA batteries as they are a quarter of the weight and charge 50% faster.

You will need power to seperate out the hydrogen you require.

ITM use electrolizers that can be powered by solar or wind.

[FunFon]

Sorry to be sceptic, but my last bill was 3,9 Baht per KWh , so the electric company buy's back electric from you at twice or tripple the rate they are selling it ?

Something doesn't add up in my opinion.

The ratio in the UK was/is even greater.

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Yes, it's the government subsidising grass-roots development of alternative generation infrastructure knowing it will (may) pay off in the future.

Very wise policy in my mind, but definitely at taxpayer expense.

[Feesbay John]

I have lived here for the last 9 years and yes you can sell back to the power company, just 6 months ago you could get 11 baht per kw but it has gone down to 7.5 baht per kw over the last 2 months and it is getting harder to get the electric company to pass a system, I am at the moment installing 5.88kw x 2 as one is for his home and the other is for his factory. Plus many other projects. AND have installed many a kw in the past.

Ring your local electric company and just ask them if it is OK for you to install solar. Around here they love it. A grid tie inverter will only put electric back into the grid if there is electric. So if you have a power cut it will stop working,

Sorry to be sceptic, but my last bill was 3,9 Baht per KWh , so the electric company buy's back electric from you at twice or tripple the rate they are selling it ?

Something doesn't add up in my opinion.

See comments again without doing your home work. The government here is paying the difference to the electric company.

[Feesbay John]

I have lived here for the last 9 years and yes you can sell back to the power company, just 6 months ago you could get 11 baht per kw but it has gone down to 7.5 baht per kw over the last 2 months and it is getting harder to get the electric company to pass a system, I am at the moment installing 5.88kw x 2 as one is for his home and the other is for his factory. Plus many other projects. AND have installed many a kw in the past.

Ring your local electric company and just ask them if it is OK for you to install solar. Around here they love it. A grid tie inverter will only put electric back into the grid if there is electric. So if you have a power cut it will stop working,

Sorry to be sceptic, but my last bill was 3,9 Baht per KWh , so the electric company buy's back electric from you at twice or tripple the rate they are selling it ?

Something doesn't add up in my opinion.

Again comments without doing your home work, The Government here is paying the difference to the electric company.

[jbrain]

I have lived here for the last 9 years and yes you can sell back to the power company, just 6 months ago you could get 11 baht per kw but it has gone down to 7.5 baht per kw over the last 2 months and it is getting harder to get the electric company to pass a system, I am at the moment installing 5.88kw x 2 as one is for his home and the other is for his factory. Plus many other projects. AND have installed many a kw in the past.

Ring your local electric company and just ask them if it is OK for you to install solar. Around here they love it. A grid tie inverter will only put electric back into the grid if there is electric. So if you have a power cut it will stop working,

Sorry to be sceptic, but my last bill was 3,9 Baht per KWh , so the electric company buy's back electric from you at twice or tripple the rate they are selling it ?

Something doesn't add up in my opinion.

Again comments without doing your home work, The Government here is paying the difference to the electric company.

But that is what's called subsidizing isn't it ?

Hence my earlier comments that without subsidizing solar enrgy isn't cost effective.

Now someone has to pay for the difference that the electric company pays you, not ?

[kblaze]

@ JBRAIN

You are 100% wrong about no subsidies in Thailand.

Solar power is VERY subsidized. Companies are charged NO TAX on profits from solar power for 10 years. Furthermore companies can sell their power to the govt (EGCO, etc) at 12 bt per kw, which is an 8bt subsidy as normal power is sold to the govt at only 4 bt per kw. That is why you can sell your solar power to the power company at 7.5bt, because the power company in turn sells it to the govt at 12 bt.

[Feesbay John]

@ JBRAIN

You are 100% wrong about no subsidies in Thailand.

Solar power is VERY subsidized. Companies are charged NO TAX on profits from solar power for 10 years. Furthermore companies can sell their power to the govt (EGCO, etc) at 12 bt per kw, which is an 8bt subsidy as normal power is sold to the govt at only 4 bt per kw. That is why you can sell your solar power to the power company at 7.5bt, because the power company in turn sells it to the govt at 12 bt.

Nice to see someone here that has done there home work.

[Feesbay John]

@ JBRAIN

You are 100% wrong about no subsidies in Thailand.

Solar power is VERY subsidized. Companies are charged NO TAX on profits from solar power for 10 years. Furthermore companies can sell their power to the govt (EGCO, etc) at 12 bt per kw, which is an 8bt subsidy as normal power is sold to the govt at only 4 bt per kw. That is why you can sell your solar power to the power company at 7.5bt, because the power company in turn sells it to the govt at 12 bt.

Nice to see someone here that has done there home work.

I no people that have 2 meters so they can sell there power to the govt and use the power from the govt at a cheaper rate. its like having 2 or 3 times the solar power doing it that way. Or needing less solar to gain more.

[jbrain]

@ JBRAIN

You are 100% wrong about no subsidies in Thailand.

Solar power is VERY subsidized. Companies are charged NO TAX on profits from solar power for 10 years. Furthermore companies can sell their power to the govt (EGCO, etc) at 12 bt per kw, which is an 8bt subsidy as normal power is sold to the govt at only 4 bt per kw. That is why you can sell your solar power to the power company at 7.5bt, because the power company in turn sells it to the govt at 12 bt.

Nice to see someone here that has done there home work.

I no people that have 2 meters so they can sell there power to the govt and use the power from the govt at a cheaper rate. its like having 2 or 3 times the solar power doing it that way. Or needing less solar to gain more.

Fine, now tell me how long that gonna last, since governments are not here to lose money.

You know that this kind of subsidy has been scaled back big way for new installations already in the most of Europe, hence the fact that the solar fairytale has ended in Europe and Suntech has defaulted recently.

The biggest solar company in the world, which was heavily subsidized by the Chinese government, is bankrupt and there are more to follow.

Of course the European governments have to honor their contracts. I know people in my homecountry when the installed they got a contract that they could sell back for X year at a fixed price. New installation get a lot less subsidy now, if at all.

Do you have similar guarantee here in Thailand ?

Edited April 17, 2013 by jbrain

[kblaze]

Nothing is guaranteed here; except that when it rains the locals will protect their heads with plastic bags.

[Bill3173]

To those who might be interested.

I am currently looking after a farm for my brother in-law here in Australia, which is self-sufficient, this includes off grid solar (4kw). I am quite surprised how efficient the system is.

The system was bought approx.’ 6 years ago for $10,000AUD (I think it was second hand, but not sure). At first I was careful of power usage, now I don’t worry about it; it just sits

on 100% charged. Recently we had a month of solid rain, i.e. constant cloud cover, and it still sat on 100% charged.

Below are everyday appliances that are used (none are specifically designed for solar).

Full size fridge

Chest freezer (I don’t use it, but my brother in-law does when he is here)

5.5kg Washing machine
32 inch TV - 6 hours a day

Computer, including 2 x 21inch external monitors – 12 hours a day (I dabble in online trading)

All kitchen appliances (excluding bottled gas cooker)

Many everyday items, such as battery charges, vacuum cleaner, etc.

Power tools, although not often.
Household water pump.

Lighting

When you consider that new systems are even more efficient than the system above and getting cheaper, I would not hesitate to put solar in if I were buying or building again.

This is doubly so if you have a tie-in point to the grid (no need for the expensive batteries). In fact you can now buy off grid systems that are all self contained, pre wired and in
external cabinets that (barring regulations) any competent handy man can install. The only problems I can foresee are from lack of regular maintenance.
It would not be sufficient for heating / cooling, but even that can be dramatically reduced, or even eliminated, from correct house design.

Below are photos of the system.

[jackflash]

> With a 2 Kw inverter many things can be run but the surge taken by
> washing machines etc will overcome the inverter - gen or bigger one, up
> to you. As you found, overload it and it will die.

Utter steaming garbage.

He said that his batteries died, not his inverter. It's a pretty poor inverter if it can't take an overload.

Any halfway decent design should be completely protected against long-term and short-term overloads.

And FWIW, my washing machine runs quite happily on a 650 Watt inverter.

Why do people post when they haven't a cue?

[Blumpkin]

To those who might be interested.

I am currently looking after a farm for my brother in-law here in Australia, which is self-sufficient, this includes off grid solar (4kw). I am quite surprised how efficient the system is.

The system was bought approx.’ 6 years ago for $10,000AUD (I think it was second hand, but not sure). At first I was careful of power usage, now I don’t worry about it; it just sits

on 100% charged. Recently we had a month of solid rain, i.e. constant cloud cover, and it still sat on 100% charged.

Below are everyday appliances that are used (none are specifically designed for solar).

Full size fridge

Chest freezer (I don’t use it, but my brother in-law does when he is here)

5.5kg Washing machine

32 inch TV - 6 hours a day

Computer, including 2 x 21inch external monitors – 12 hours a day (I dabble in online trading)

All kitchen appliances (excluding bottled gas cooker)

Many everyday items, such as battery charges, vacuum cleaner, etc.

Power tools, although not often.

Household water pump.

Lighting

When you consider that new systems are even more efficient than the system above and getting cheaper, I would not hesitate to put solar in if I were buying or building again.

This is doubly so if you have a tie-in point to the grid (no need for the expensive batteries). In fact you can now buy off grid systems that are all self contained, pre wired and in

external cabinets that (barring regulations) any competent handy man can install. The only problems I can foresee are from lack of regular maintenance.

It would not be sufficient for heating / cooling, but even that can be dramatically reduced, or even eliminated, from correct house design.

Below are photos of the system.

Solar1.jpgSolar2.jpgSolar3.jpgSolar4.jpg

Your house doesn't look big enough to fit all those appliances in and it's got no windows!

[Crossy]

I too would be very interested in the local regulations and requirements for an on-grid (grid tie) system, the only official documents I can find on-line are for multi-megawatt commercial systems, nothing for micro-solar.

If anyone has links to Thai documentation I would be most appreciative, our local PEA office seems to have no clue

I have seen news articles referring to sell-back metering in Thailand, but it's only mentioned in passing and is of course without links to the actual information

Some sums:-

Without a proper sell-back meter (solar is plugged into your regular supply) your meter will run slower by the amount of power that you are producing, when the sun shines and your solar produces more than you are using the meter will run backwards, it will go forwards again when it's dark and you are not producing any solar. You are effectively using the power grid as an energy storage system. This is known as nett-metering. In this case you 'sell' power to the grid at the same price that you buy it. BUT if you consistently make more than you use the meter will give a nett negative reading which will very likely upset the supply authority and potentially trigger their fraud investigation department.

With a sell-back meter your power usage and power generated are metered separately, this allows the supply authority to pay you more per-unit than you pay them (government subsidy). If you can sell at a higher rate your payback time will be reduced (obviously).

For example:-

A 2.8kW grid-tie system will cost about 150,000 Baht and produce about 14.5kWh per day.

A nett metered arrangement with power costing 4.0 Baht a unit will take about 7 years to recover it's own cost.

With separately metered sell-back, If you can sell at, say, 7.5 Baht that reduces to about 4 years. This is heading towards becoming viable.

Sooooo, how do we get hold of a proper sell-back meter and agreement with MEA / PEA (or is it EGAT)? We need something to trigger the local office into action.

[Feesbay John]

I too would be very interested in the local regulations and requirements for an on-grid (grid tie) system, the only official documents I can find on-line are for multi-megawatt commercial systems, nothing for micro-solar.

If anyone has links to Thai documentation I would be most appreciative, our local PEA office seems to have no clue

I have seen news articles referring to sell-back metering in Thailand, but it's only mentioned in passing and is of course without links to the actual information

Some sums:-

Without a proper sell-back meter (solar is plugged into your regular supply) your meter will run slower by the amount of power that you are producing, when the sun shines and your solar produces more than you are using the meter will run backwards, it will go forwards again when it's dark and you are not producing any solar. You are effectively using the power grid as an energy storage system. This is known as nett-metering. In this case you 'sell' power to the grid at the same price that you buy it. BUT if you consistently make more than you use the meter will give a nett negative reading which will very likely upset the supply authority and potentially trigger their fraud investigation department.

With a sell-back meter your power usage and power generated are metered separately, this allows the supply authority to pay you more per-unit than you pay them (government subsidy). If you can sell at a higher rate your payback time will be reduced (obviously).

For example:-

A 2.8kW grid-tie system will cost about 150,000 Baht and produce about 14.5kWh per day.

A nett metered arrangement with power costing 4.0 Baht a unit will take about 7 years to recover it's own cost.

With separately metered sell-back, If you can sell at, say, 7.5 Baht that reduces to about 4 years. This is heading towards becoming viable.

Sooooo, how do we get hold of a proper sell-back meter and agreement with MEA / PEA (or is it EGAT)? We need something to trigger the local office into action.

I dont know were yoou are buying you grid tie as I sell a 4.6kw max 5kw for only 56,500 baht and these are from Taiwan, that is with the import tax and vat. As for the meter all one does is to have a new meter installed which is the same as the one you have now and you then use this just for the solar BUT only if you have registered with your local suppler. Most off the people I deal with just look at slowing there meter down to cover there bill BUT it is more profitable if you can get your local electric company to buy it from you. Here is a link in Thai http://www.eppo.go.th/power/powerN/File/%281%29.pdf

[Crossy]

Surely your grid tie price is for the inverter only, my 150k includes 2.8kW of panels (a system)

Our problem is the registration bit, they know nothing! I'll try them again when I get home next week, not holding out a lot of hope mind

[jbrain]

Surely your grid tie price is for the inverter only, my 150k includes 2.8kW of panels (a system)

Our problem is the registration bit, they know nothing! I'll try them again when I get home next week, not holding out a lot of hope mind

It is the same for the TOU meters,they are on the website of the PEA with the the times and according charges, but they are also only available for companies who have a heavy usage. Try to get one from your local PEA. as a private person.

[Tep]

I too would be very interested in the local regulations and requirements for an on-grid (grid tie) system, the only official documents I can find on-line are for multi-megawatt commercial systems, nothing for micro-solar.

If anyone has links to Thai documentation I would be most appreciative, our local PEA office seems to have no clue

I have seen news articles referring to sell-back metering in Thailand, but it's only mentioned in passing and is of course without links to the actual information

Some sums:-

Without a proper sell-back meter (solar is plugged into your regular supply) your meter will run slower by the amount of power that you are producing, when the sun shines and your solar produces more than you are using the meter will run backwards, it will go forwards again when it's dark and you are not producing any solar. You are effectively using the power grid as an energy storage system. This is known as nett-metering. In this case you 'sell' power to the grid at the same price that you buy it. BUT if you consistently make more than you use the meter will give a nett negative reading which will very likely upset the supply authority and potentially trigger their fraud investigation department.

With a sell-back meter your power usage and power generated are metered separately, this allows the supply authority to pay you more per-unit than you pay them (government subsidy). If you can sell at a higher rate your payback time will be reduced (obviously).

For example:-

A 2.8kW grid-tie system will cost about 150,000 Baht and produce about 14.5kWh per day.

A nett metered arrangement with power costing 4.0 Baht a unit will take about 7 years to recover it's own cost.

With separately metered sell-back, If you can sell at, say, 7.5 Baht that reduces to about 4 years. This is heading towards becoming viable.

Sooooo, how do we get hold of a proper sell-back meter and agreement with MEA / PEA (or is it EGAT)? We need something to trigger the local office into action.

I dont know were yoou are buying you grid tie as I sell a 4.6kw max 5kw for only 56,500 baht and these are from Taiwan, that is with the import tax and vat. As for the meter all one does is to have a new meter installed which is the same as the one you have now and you then use this just for the solar BUT only if you have registered with your local suppler. Most off the people I deal with just look at slowing there meter down to cover there bill BUT it is more profitable if you can get your local electric company to buy it from you. Here is a link in Thai http://www.eppo.go.th/power/powerN/File/%281%29.pdf

That document refers to the adder for the purchase of renewable energy from private producers, being companies that have applied under the SPP and VSPP program. The adder for solar was reduced from 8 bt/kWh in 2010 to 6.5 bt/kWh. MEA and PEA have allowed private individuals to sell to their grids using these regulations intended for larger power purchase. The adder is under review as it is not reflective of the cost of the particular technology to which it is applied. My understanding is that PEA and MEA are not connecting any new private residences as the ERC is working on a regulation for residential roof top PV selling to the grid. Hopefully this will include a proper feed in tariff that is reflective of the cost of the technology and not the old 'adder' model.