Why Not More Solar Energy?

[Tep]

Surely your grid tie price is for the inverter only, my 150k includes 2.8kW of panels (a system)

Our problem is the registration bit, they know nothing! I'll try them again when I get home next week, not holding out a lot of hope mind

It is the same for the TOU meters,they are on the website of the PEA with the the times and according charges, but they are also only available for companies who have a heavy usage. Try to get one from your local PEA. as a private person.

PEA allow residential consumers to switch to TOU. They have regulations and procedures governing this. Very few people have done this as it is quite complex. The Director of PEA's Power Economics Department is one of the few people I know who has done it. It is mainly for commercial and industrial consumers. You will probably have to contact PEA HQ as local offices probably won't know the procedures.

[jbrain]

I too would be very interested in the local regulations and requirements for an on-grid (grid tie) system, the only official documents I can find on-line are for multi-megawatt commercial systems, nothing for micro-solar.

If anyone has links to Thai documentation I would be most appreciative, our local PEA office seems to have no clue

I have seen news articles referring to sell-back metering in Thailand, but it's only mentioned in passing and is of course without links to the actual information

Some sums:-

Without a proper sell-back meter (solar is plugged into your regular supply) your meter will run slower by the amount of power that you are producing, when the sun shines and your solar produces more than you are using the meter will run backwards, it will go forwards again when it's dark and you are not producing any solar. You are effectively using the power grid as an energy storage system. This is known as nett-metering. In this case you 'sell' power to the grid at the same price that you buy it. BUT if you consistently make more than you use the meter will give a nett negative reading which will very likely upset the supply authority and potentially trigger their fraud investigation department.

With a sell-back meter your power usage and power generated are metered separately, this allows the supply authority to pay you more per-unit than you pay them (government subsidy). If you can sell at a higher rate your payback time will be reduced (obviously).

For example:-

A 2.8kW grid-tie system will cost about 150,000 Baht and produce about 14.5kWh per day.

A nett metered arrangement with power costing 4.0 Baht a unit will take about 7 years to recover it's own cost.

With separately metered sell-back, If you can sell at, say, 7.5 Baht that reduces to about 4 years. This is heading towards becoming viable.

Sooooo, how do we get hold of a proper sell-back meter and agreement with MEA / PEA (or is it EGAT)? We need something to trigger the local office into action.

I dont know were yoou are buying you grid tie as I sell a 4.6kw max 5kw for only 56,500 baht and these are from Taiwan, that is with the import tax and vat. As for the meter all one does is to have a new meter installed which is the same as the one you have now and you then use this just for the solar BUT only if you have registered with your local suppler. Most off the people I deal with just look at slowing there meter down to cover there bill BUT it is more profitable if you can get your local electric company to buy it from you. Here is a link in Thai http://www.eppo.go.th/power/powerN/File/%281%29.pdf

That document refers to the adder for the purchase of renewable energy from private producers, being companies that have applied under the SPP and VSPP program. The adder for solar was reduced from 8 bt/kWh in 2010 to 6.5 bt/kWh. MEA and PEA have allowed private individuals to sell to their grids using these regulations intended for larger power purchase. The adder is under review as it is not reflective of the cost of the particular technology to which it is applied. My understanding is that PEA and MEA are not connecting any new private residences as the ERC is working on a regulation for residential roof top PV selling to the grid. Hopefully this will include a proper feed in tariff that is reflective of the cost of the technology and not the old 'adder' model.

What do you mean with not reflective of cost and hope that the future tariff will be reflective.

Do you think that the current tariff is too high or too low?

[Tep]

The structure of the adder does not reflect the cost of the technology used. It is based on the avoided cost of conventional fuel. I cannot say that the adder is too high or too low since it is a policy directed instrument to attract private investment in renewable energy. Some would argue any subsidy is too high. Others would argue massive subsidies are needed, eg the a world Bank report 'Winds of Change'. If you are asking is the base tariff in Thailand is too high or too low, I would argue that including the adder and the 50 kWh free allocation in the Ft results in a higher tariff due to policy directed activities

[rakman]

Solar power comes in many forms, not just photovoltaic cells.As previously mentioned, solar hot water heaters are 100% cost effective and yes it is ridiculous to not be using everywhere already. The anti solar propaganda started with Ronald Raygun. He literally destroyed a new vibrant industry of appropriate technology within days of being sworn in. I had at the time designed and built a small passive greenhouse in Palmer Alaska with a design temperature of -26F. It heated the cabin 100% using zero electricity or other means of power. Some of the design techniques have been around for centuries. i.e. cliff dwellers in many parts of the world had figured out the correct thickness of the stone walls to store just the correct amount of heat without overheating while radiating the heat back into the rooms at night. This cabin was a demonstration of low cost housing using locally available renewable resources. The cabin won an award from the U.S. Department of Energy. The pace of design and ingenuity was vibrant and exciting to some of us. Then comes along Ronnie Raygun. Within a month he completely wiped out all federal funding for anything dealing with appropriate technology...tax incentives, grants,and the resource that most solar pioneers had used to obtain climatical data, called SERI or solar energy research institute. The icing on the cake was the start of a propaganda campaign focusing on only the fact that photovoltaics were not cost effective. That propaganda worked and is prevalent to this day as evidenced by some of the posts here. The Republicans DO NOT want you heating your home for free and the oil and coal industries spend lots of money to hide reality. If one designs an energy efficient home, reducing the needs for energy, photovoltaics are already cost effective. San Diego County has required all water heaters to be solar for almost 30 years now. Never was fond of propoganda whether coming from North Korea or Faux News. Here are a few photos of the small cabin in Palmer before the earth berm and sod roof and the Beadwall insulating the greenhouse. What a feeling to wake up the the most natural, comfortable warmth and did I mention FREE?...

The problem I have is, if your design is so good, the buyers would be beating a path to your door. Don't blame Reagan for eliminating a stupid government program with poor value and has just costs the taxpayers money.

Market your belief and ideas and see if you're successful at it. Don't depend on the government to give you what you want, that powerful a government will take it all away from everyone.

[mogandave]

No, it was Reagan. He also killed a company that had developed an engine that generated 156 HP, costed $900, used corn oil in the crankcase and burned water for fuel. Make no mistake, big oil owns the Republicans.

[tw25rw]

Solar energy would be devestating for Shell's - and BP's profits.

Ask yourself why the electric car (which has been around for some 60 odd years) has not replaced the fossile fuel car decades ago?

The large industrialist company's have put a hold on it's developement.

The electric car is a techical cul de sac that should have died a death many years ago.

Renewable generated hydrogen is the way to go. You do not even have to build expensive hybrids as it can be used in existing internal combustion engines.

Why use combustion engines? Electric motors are much simpler. They also have more torque and are quieter. It's the combustion engine that should die a death.

[Crossy]

why use combustion engines? Electric motors are much simpler. They also have more torque and are quieter. It's the combustion engine that should die a death.

Simple answer, batteries!

I'm sure a little research on your part will tell you why.

[tw25rw]

why use combustion engines? Electric motors are much simpler. They also have more torque and are quieter. It's the combustion engine that should die a death.

Simple answer, batteries!

I'm sure a little research on your part will tell you why.

Battery technology is the thing that has held electric vehicles back, but it hardly makes electric car tech a dead end. Batteries will improve with time and research. And hydrogen fuel cells will also provide the electricity when the technology matures. Hydrogen powered combustion engines would be just a stop gap with no real future.

[Cluey]

Until a nearly-free clean and safe method is found for generating electricity, it's not an environmentally responsible source of power.

And then transporting it long distances is inherently very very very wasteful.

Then add the environmental costs of manufacturing the batteries, their limited lifespan, disposal costs etc.

One day hydrogen maybe, until then NGV/LPG as good as it gets.

And of course getting away of the whole private personal vehicle will help, public transport + properly designed communities to encourage/enable walking and bicycling otherwise will be the way to go.

Unfortunately we probably wont' be so sensible until we're forced to, by which time quality of life will be down the toilet in many other ways.

[pokerkid]

Many here are missing a crucial point in assessing home power needs. Instead of just "bolting on solar accessories" onto any style of house... one needs to reduce the overall need for energy in the home by several methods, site orientation, etc. Appropriate technology only does well when planned at the outset of design to incorporate the specifics of where you are in the world and how you can reduce the energy requirements. I have to laugh at the naive statement about the northern regions and how much colder it is. Whew! Absolutely no clues. Again I mention there are very simple techniques to build houses here in way too hot Thailand that can cool themselves naturally. Most have no idea what I am even talking about. Save the oil for the specific uses that cannot be done with other responsible, clean and lot's of time free energy sources. Trust me, there will always be a need for oil.

can you give some examples or links on how to construct such houses with simple techniques .

[Sandman77]

Did someone any Chinese company that send 100 watt solar cells to Thailand?

What is price in china?

How high solar cells taxed in thailand?

[Crossy]

Did someone any Chinese company that send 100 watt solar cells to Thailand?

What is price in china?

How high solar cells taxed in thailand?

At 5,800 Baht from Amorn Solar http://www.amornsolar.com/ it's barely worth the hassle of importing them.

[Puschl]

Many here are missing a crucial point in assessing home power needs. Instead of just "bolting on solar accessories" onto any style of house... one needs to reduce the overall need for energy in the home by several methods, site orientation, etc. Appropriate technology only does well when planned at the outset of design to incorporate the specifics of where you are in the world and how you can reduce the energy requirements. I have to laugh at the naive statement about the northern regions and how much colder it is. Whew! Absolutely no clues. Again I mention there are very simple techniques to build houses here in way too hot Thailand that can cool themselves naturally. Most have no idea what I am even talking about. Save the oil for the specific uses that cannot be done with other responsible, clean and lot's of time free energy sources. Trust me, there will always be a need for oil.

can you give some examples or links on how to construct such houses with simple techniques .

Google 'passive house', or rather 'passive cooling' in warmer climes. Here's a nice gov.au site:

http://www.yourhome.gov.au/technical/fs41.html

[Potosi]

Solar energy would be devestating for Shell's - and BP's profits.

Ask yourself why the electric car (which has been around for some 60 odd years) has not replaced the fossile fuel car decades ago?

The large industrialist company's have put a hold on it's developement.

The electric car is a techical cul de sac that should have died a death many years ago.

Renewable generated hydrogen is the way to go. You do not even have to build expensive hybrids as it can be used in existing internal combustion engines.

Why use combustion engines? Electric motors are much simpler. They also have more torque and are quieter. It's the combustion engine that should die a death.

Indeed, the combustion engine is second to the steam engine in inefficiency, while the electric motor packs far more power in a smaller size, simpler set-up, and tiny faction of the production costs. Petrol costs now above 1.50 Euro per litre in Europe, that's going to rise to 5 Euro, and then beyond 10 Euro in just a few years. It's about making profit as long as the party lasts, maybe until the middle of the century. That's the date the EU plans to ban all cars in the cities, anyway.

The space station fully depends on solar power, 10 permanent staff and lots of equipment. They have a couple of things to care for we take for granted on the ground, like producing oxygen by splitting water, and recycling water from urine and air humidity. Quite energy-expensive. Solar power does have the potential to replace all other sources of energy, earth's surface gets almost 1kw per square metre, thousands of times more than humanity needs at present. I think there will be solar powered light-weight cars with 2 or 3 sqm of solar panels on the body, delivering some 5hp. Not good for long distances, but 50kph in the cities. They'll share the streets with bicycles and electro scooters. And yes solar can power a plane, the technology to convert electricity to methane exist, test plants in Austria and Germany are feeding gas in the distribution net, and large plants will be build before the end of this decade. To synthesize more complex hydrocarbons from methane is no trouble. And they can also fly on hydrogen.

[Naam]

the technology to convert electricity to methane exist

[Naam]

Again I mention there are very simple techniques to build houses here in
way too hot Thailand that can cool themselves naturally.

there is no such thing that a house can cool itself below ambient temperature based on building technique for a prolonged period of time.

[Cluey]

Underground housing is of course a great alternative. Otherwise, ensure that the building envelope is protected from unnecessary thermal loading of direct solar radiation, e.g. shaded by surrounding trees.

Position the building so it is exposed to prevailing breezes, if these vary by season determine the optimal location for the hottest time of year. Ensure the design allows for maximum air flow across surfaces, ideally including living space flooring.

If not using air conditioning, ensure maximum airflow though wall surfaces and design ventilation to evacuate internal heat loads through roof vents, if necessary adding elevated wind scoops to assist natural convection.

If using air conditioning, insulate all surfaces of the enclosed area very well, and ensure ventilation is strictly controlled. Designs allowing for both models are expensive and difficult to maintain well, so consider separate aircon as opposed to fan-cooled living spaces, e.g. incorporating large areas of screened-in covered porches.

Inbound ventilation air can be drawn through underground piping a few meters below the surface, and in dry conditions water sprays can be used to create a perceived cooling effect. Where climates are normally dry, elaborate evaporative coolings systems can be built for much less than modern electrical air conditioning and consume far less electricity.

Googling the more specialized terms will give lots of more detailed information, and there are many architectural firms that specialize in these and related alternative energy topics.

[Naam]

If not using air conditioning, ensure maximum airflow though wall

surfaces and design ventilation to evacuate internal heat loads through

roof vents, if necessary adding elevated wind scoops to assist natural

convection.

evacuate internal heat loads and draw 35-36ºC ambient air through your house to "cool" it down. these were the high temps we had in the Pattaya area since several weeks.

[Cluey]

Not saying these methods can replace air conditioning entirely, the goal is to ensure that site selection, positioning of the home on the site, design of the house and site landscaping, construction materials and methods, all work together to maximize comfort and minimize external energy inputs.

And air drawn through a properly designed ventilation system buried 3-4 meters below the ground will come out the other end much cooler than the ambient air temperatures.

Getting your body acclimated to the higher temperatures is also very helpful.

[mogandave]

Underground housing is of course a great alternative. Otherwise, ensure that the building envelope is protected from unnecessary thermal loading of direct solar radiation, e.g. shaded by surrounding trees.

Position the building so it is exposed to prevailing breezes, if these vary by season determine the optimal location for the hottest time of year. Ensure the design allows for maximum air flow across surfaces, ideally including living space flooring.

If not using air conditioning, ensure maximum airflow though wall surfaces and design ventilation to evacuate internal heat loads through roof vents, if necessary adding elevated wind scoops to assist natural convection.

If using air conditioning, insulate all surfaces of the enclosed area very well, and ensure ventilation is strictly controlled. Designs allowing for both models are expensive and difficult to maintain well, so consider separate aircon as opposed to fan-cooled living spaces, e.g. incorporating large areas of screened-in covered porches.

Inbound ventilation air can be drawn through underground piping a few meters below the surface, and in dry conditions water sprays can be used to create a perceived cooling effect. Where climates are normally dry, elaborate evaporative coolings systems can be built for much less than modern electrical air conditioning and consume far less electricity.

Googling the more specialized terms will give lots of more detailed information, and there are many architectural firms that specialize in these and related alternative energy topics.

You think pumping air through an underground duct is going to significantly reduce the temperature?

[boosta]

You think pumping air through an underground duct is going to significantly reduce the temperature?

-

Yes if it's properly designed, lots of variables involved.

In dry climates just passing the air over porous clay jars containing water helps.

This isn't weird tech guys, traditional practices evolved over centuries.

Look at the traditional thatched slats-on-stilts Thai house in the countryside, perfect design. Semi-buried sod-roofed houses.

It's only the very recent and short-lived modern period with unrealistically cheap electric power that's allowed architecture to totally ignore basic design principles.

[fish fingers]

Again I mention there are very simple techniques to build houses here in

way too hot Thailand that can cool themselves naturally.

there is no such thing that a house can cool itself below ambient temperature based on building technique for a prolonged period of time.

Maybe not in Bkk, if you have cooler temperatures overnight it can be done

One thing that wd work and I'm planning to do is a solar grid tie, basically a 1kw panel set up to cover the air con etc during the day. This cd potentially halve my electricity bill

Edited June 14, 2013 by fish fingers

[Naam]

Again I mention there are very simple techniques to build houses here in

way too hot Thailand that can cool themselves naturally.

there is no such thing that a house can cool itself below ambient temperature based on building technique for a prolonged period of time.

Maybe not in Bkk, if you have cooler temperatures overnight it can be done

One thing that wd work and I'm planning to do is a solar grid tie, basically a 1kw panel set up to cover the air con etc during the day. This cd potentially halve my electricity bill

what total cost do you expect for the setup?

[boosta]

One thing that wd work and I'm planning to do is a solar grid tie, basically a 1kw panel set up to cover the air con etc during the day. This cd potentially halve my electricity bill

-

You really need to do some basic research, or even better get advice from experienced professionals in the field.

Generating enough electric from solar - as in photo-voltaic cells - to run **air-conditioning** is MUCH MUCH more power than is usually planned for solar houses - 3-5 KVA, requiring 4-6 KVA inverters, altogether a huge investment.

You'd be much better off driving A/C compressors (engines) directly off natural gas or something, probably adapting chilling system used for reefer containers and other transport system not tied into mains power.

None of this will be anywhere close to cost-effective if you're on the grid, at best a very very expensive PR exercise.

Only makes economic sense if you're way off the grid and the land prices are correspondingly low, or you're hiding from the three-letter agencies up in the mountains of Burma or something.

[Naam]

You really need to do some basic research, or even better get advice from experienced professionals in the field.

based on his wording i think the OP is planning to feed his generated energy into the grid and thus reducing his electricity bill.

powering directly an aircon with a 1kW panel is of course science fiction.

[boosta]

> basically a 1kw panel set up to cover the air con etc during the day

Maybe, still doesn't make much economic sense either way.

[Kitsune]

Again I mention there are very simple techniques to build houses here in

way too hot Thailand that can cool themselves naturally.

there is no such thing that a house can cool itself below ambient temperature based on building technique for a prolonged period of time.

Maybe not in Bkk, if you have cooler temperatures overnight it can be done

One thing that wd work and I'm planning to do is a solar grid tie, basically a 1kw panel set up to cover the air con etc during the day. This cd potentially halve my electricity bill

where do you buy these ?

[fish fingers]

Yes it plugs directly into a socket (onto the ring main), you'd need panels, brackets, cables and a grid tie inverter

Its the easiest and cheapest way to do it and makes sense in thailand where u have ample sun all day

plenty of info online

Edited June 15, 2013 by fish fingers

[Kitsune]

Yes it plugs directly into a socket (onto the ring main), you'd need panels, brackets, cables and a grid tie inverter

Its the easiest and cheapest way to do it and makes sense in thailand where u have ample sun all day

plenty of info online

how much does a 1kw panel gets you ?

[boosta]

Just be aware if the mains power goes out so does your solar system. You can have USD $100K worth of panels on your roof and not be able to re-charge your iPhone.

But the batteries required for a traditional off-grid setup are a significant added expense, so if you believe mains grid power to be reliable into the future you may prefer to take your chances.

Edited June 15, 2013 by boosta