Gun Vote " Shameful Day," Obama Says

[Scott]

An off-topic post replying to another post has been deleted. If a post is giving incorrect information, please feel free to report it rather than respond if it is off-topic.

This topic is about the Gun Vote, not the death penalty.

[snarky66]

When 'The Land of the Free' has no other meaning then being allowed to have a gun it is not suprising.

Since my birth always glad I'm not an American

Rest assured the feeling is mutual.

[snarky66]

The anti-gun people want to change a Constitutional Amendment without going through the process required to amend the Constitution which requires a 2/3 vote of both houses of Congress and ratification by 3/4 of the states. See this link for further and more complete explanation http://www.usconstitution.net/constam.html . The Constitution has been amended before - so it is not an impossible task. But the gun haters will not mount such a campaign because they know they will lose - so they wish instead to chip away at the Constitution via subterfuge and emotional rhetoric.

The wild eyed gun haters want to circumvent this process and back-door a Constitutional change. Basically ignore the Constitution. This works sometimes - regrettably - but is often shot down in the courts months and years later - but not always. By the way - the Second Amendment is not about hunting or target shooting or collecting. It is about reserving the right of the people to have self defense against - even their own tyrannical government. And Gun Control is not about Guns it is about Control.

Very well said old chap.

I would like to paraphrase the relevant part of the second that leftists would like to revoke.

"... the right of the people to keep & bear arms SHALL NOT BE INFRINGED"

The last 4 words are the part feinstein schumer reid & the rest of the Marxist ilk can not come to grips with.

Libs obey laws they agree with & they condemn laws they disagree with.

And nothing in the world will ever change that.

[AnotherOneAmerican]

Europeans and Americans have very different views on guns in society.

Americans believe firearms are necessary to protect oneself against any agressor. Americans don't care to become a victim.

How would you protect yourself if the next Charles Manson and gang come to your home? If you don't have superior firepower you will be overtaken, or worse.

What group was unharmed during the L.A. riots ? It was those Koreans in Koreatown. They patrolled the tops of the buildings with AK-47s and no riot spread to their neighborhood because everyone knew they were armed to the hilt.

Americans cannot agree with sitting and waiting to be shot by someone who takes over a building or tries to enter your home. Americans will take up arms and fight.

If more responsible adults had a concealed weapon permit we would stop more assauts before they occur.

A criminal does not need a gun to kill. If guns are outlawed, only outlaws will have guns. And there will always be outlaws.

Lets's see: I wasn't there, when the Manson- gang went on a killing spree...but I think it is a save guess, it didn't happen like this:

"Good evening, ma'am...my name is Charles Manson and this is my gang. Would you mind us, coming inside have some alcohol and drugs and sex and little satan- worshipping...and after that...may we kill you?" And Sharon Tate went to look for here gun, but unfortunately she forgot to buy one earlier...and the rest is history!

And this is where the whole "waht would you do, if you wake up at night and there is a killer in your house"- thing blows up!

"Dear Mr. Killer /Rapist/ black drug-gang ...can you please wait until I get my gun, load it and take aim at you?"

When I sleep, my gun in under my pillow, it is loaded and it is cocked and locked.

When I am out and about, my gun is in my belly pouch, it is loaded and it is cocked and locked.

There is no point in owning a gun, for self-defence, if it isn't loaded and within your reach.

[Morden]

Oh please. The vast majority of the democrats voted with the overwhelming public opinion on background checks. The vast majority republicans voted AGAINST the overwhelming public opinion on background checks. They obstructed the will of the people. In my view, this is a massive failure of democracy.

Background checks are unconstitutional, it is the right of every free American citizen to own guns, no matter what their background.

If someone isn't sane enough to be allowed to own a gun, then they are not sane enough to be allowed outside an institution.

If someone has a criminal history that makes them unsuitable to own a gun, then they are unsuitable to be allowed outside of a prison.

Surely, there are some incorrect statements there.

Background checks are, with the notable and illogical exception of private sales, already in place. There is no valid case against strengthening background checks and enforcing them.

The school massacre was carried out by someone who was not quite the ticket but not declared insane.

Not all criminals should be in prison, notably those who have served their sentence.

Simplifying this sad state of affairs in the US does not help solve the problems of massacres by people who should not have guns with guns that have no place in public.

[Morden]

Europeans and Americans have very different views on guns in society.

Americans believe firearms are necessary to protect oneself against any agressor. Americans don't care to become a victim.

How would you protect yourself if the next Charles Manson and gang come to your home? If you don't have superior firepower you will be overtaken, or worse.

What group was unharmed during the L.A. riots ? It was those Koreans in Koreatown. They patrolled the tops of the buildings with AK-47s and no riot spread to their neighborhood because everyone knew they were armed to the hilt.

Americans cannot agree with sitting and waiting to be shot by someone who takes over a building or tries to enter your home. Americans will take up arms and fight.

If more responsible adults had a concealed weapon permit we would stop more assauts before they occur.

A criminal does not need a gun to kill. If guns are outlawed, only outlaws will have guns. And there will always be outlaws.

Lets's see: I wasn't there, when the Manson- gang went on a killing spree...but I think it is a save guess, it didn't happen like this:

"Good evening, ma'am...my name is Charles Manson and this is my gang. Would you mind us, coming inside have some alcohol and drugs and sex and little satan- worshipping...and after that...may we kill you?" And Sharon Tate went to look for here gun, but unfortunately she forgot to buy one earlier...and the rest is history!

And this is where the whole "waht would you do, if you wake up at night and there is a killer in your house"- thing blows up!

"Dear Mr. Killer /Rapist/ black drug-gang ...can you please wait until I get my gun, load it and take aim at you?"

When I sleep, my gun in under my pillow, it is loaded and it is cocked and locked.

When I am out and about, my gun is in my belly pouch, it is loaded and it is cocked and locked.

There is no point in owning a gun, for self-defence, if it isn't loaded and within your reach.

How sad that you should feel the need to live like that.

[Jingthing]

What the second amendment actually says:

"A well regulated Militia, being necessary to the security of a free
State, the right of the people to keep and bear Arms shall not be
infringed."

The Second Amendment makes no sense without the prospect of civilian militias, as it is clearly a propositional statement. If I were to say that I'm always hungry after dinner and so I eat dessert every night, and then one night I turned out not to be hungry after dinner, then it would be reasonable to assume that I might skip dessert that night.

http://civilliberty.about.com/od/guncontrol/i/2ndamendment_2.htm

Background checks have NOTHING to do with the second amendment! Or most any legislation regulating gun ownership of CIVILIANS. This militia? What militia? Some NRA gun fanatics playing with guns doesn't a militia make. Nobody is talking about a total ban on civilian gun ownership and only a few extremists are talking about trying to kill the second amendment. It's about reasonable and more nationally effective regulations.

The NRA with all their dirty gun money has sold the American people a bag of lies about what the second amendment actually is and what it actually means.

Edited April 25, 2013 by Jingthing

[AnotherOneAmerican]

Background checks have NOTHING to do with the second amendment! Or most any legislation regulating gun ownership of CIVILIANS. This militia? What militia? Some NRA gun fanatics playing with guns doesn't a militia make. Nobody is talking about a total ban on civilian gun ownership and only a few extremists are talking about trying to kill the second amendment. It's about reasonable and more nationally effective regulations.

The NRA with all their dirty gun money has sold the American people a bag of lies about what the second amendment actually is and what it actually means.

You need to look up the definition of militia.

As long as there is a local branch of the NRA it fits the constitution.

[Jingthing]

Background checks have NOTHING to do with the second amendment! Or most any legislation regulating gun ownership of CIVILIANS. This militia? What militia? Some NRA gun fanatics playing with guns doesn't a militia make. Nobody is talking about a total ban on civilian gun ownership and only a few extremists are talking about trying to kill the second amendment. It's about reasonable and more nationally effective regulations.

The NRA with all their dirty gun money has sold the American people a bag of lies about what the second amendment actually is and what it actually means.

You need to look up the definition of militia.

As long as there is a local branch of the NRA it fits the constitution.

According to the NRA, a cynically and absurdly over powerful LOBBYING organization, I'm sure it does. Dude, all you are doing is spouting NRA propaganda. The small minority of Americans who are NRA gun fanatics have way too much power for their numbers at this point because they advocate policies against the will of the vast majority in the wake of the river of GUN VIOLENCE blood.

[AnotherOneAmerican]

Militia

A group of untrained citizens who are prepared to band together in the defence of their community.

I don't see how that definition is NRA propaganda.

If I can find three or four friends who are prepared to join me in the defence of our town, we are a militia.

[SteeleJoe]

The FACT that Mr. Obama could not get his gun legislation passed in a democratically controlled Senate has made him look like a fool, while YOU blame the GOP. Priceless.

Spoken like a true liberal. The system is working just fine, thank you very much. The right is there to balance and left, and vice versa. The only thing keeping Mr. Obama from exploding the treasury is the GOP, who are preaching fiscal restraint and a balanced budget. In the mean time, Mr. Obama is working overtime using his executive order capacity to circumvent the legislature.

You want to know what is really shameful? In my opinion, Mr. Obama is shameful for exploiting the tragedy at Newton to press HIS and the left's agenda on gun control. This is hardly a new issue and this ground has been covered over and over and over again, always with the same result. Recent Gallup Poll results show that only 4% of American citizens belief that gun control is the most important issue in America today, while Mr. Obama has spend every waking hour since this tragedy on this issue.

Mr. Obama is already being referred to as a Lame duck, and this is in the first 5 months of his second term. Usually Presidents are not referred to as Lame Ducks until after the mid-term elections, in this case in 2014. He has damaged his position and role in governing through his unbending demands to tax the rich and not negotiating with the right. His stance of "my way or the highway" has left him holding his privates wondering why no one agrees with him, including his own party.

"The FACT that Mr. Obama could not get his gun legislation passed in a democratically controlled Senate has made him look like a fool, while YOU blame the GOP."

Take a look at that and think a moment. Can you see the logical fallacy? There you go.

" In my opinion, Mr. Obama is shameful for exploiting the tragedy at Newton to press HIS and the left's agenda on gun control. "

There's nothing wrong with responding to an event emblematic of a problem with a call for action and choosing that time of heightened awareness and concern to press for it; all presidents do it and well they should - NOT doing so is shameful.

"...Mr. Obama has spend every waking hour since this tragedy on this issue."

That's truly one of the dumbest things I've seen anyone say in quite a while. Either you are just not thinking due to your vehement bigotry or you are remarkably ignorant of facts.

"Mr. Obama is already being referred to as a Lame duck, and this is in the first 5 months of his second term. Usually Presidents are not referred to as Lame Ducks until after the mid-term elections, in this case in 2014."

Simply not so.

I sincerely suggest you calm down a bit and apply more ration in lieu of all the vitriol: surely an arguable case can be made against Pres. Obama's performance based on actual facts instead of emotion...

[SteeleJoe]

Oh, man...I posted only after reading the last couple posts but now I have read some more and realize what a mistake it was to even get in this...

As usual unthinking fanaticism and bigotry on both sides of this issue.

[Morden]

It always surprises me that gun issues in the US make so much news, and that others make so much noise about it.

The US has far fewer gun deaths per capita than the most dangerous countries, including Thailand. If you want to keep busy, just read the news in Thailand, with less than 1/5 the population.

Here's a chart showing gun murders per 100,000 people, which would calm logical minds. I doubt if it will affect irrational or hysterical minds which are run by emotion instead of facts.

Link

Do you have access to a similar chart that shows the proportion of massacres of young school children and cinema goers?

I do have a chart....of the tens of millions of UNARMED civilians that perished under the rule of Stalin, Mao and Hitler...

Tyrants hate an armed population!!!!

The current debate in the US has nothing to do with a few random shootings..

It's all about -eventually- removing guns from the populace...

Wrong! The current debate is how to prevent or reduce the number of gun massacres. You dishonour the victims and families of those massacres by calling them 'a few random shootings'.

No-one, except the NRA and its short sighted followers has ever suggested that there is any intention to remove all guns from the 'populace'. The debate and attempt to make some sensible changes to the laws stems from Sandy Hook and previous massacres.

[Morden]

Militia

A group of untrained citizens who are prepared to band together in the defence of their community.

I don't see how that definition is NRA propaganda.

If I can find three or four friends who are prepared to join me in the defence of our town, we are a militia.

I'm sure that the rest of your town would be glad to find that it's under the gun law of a few self-appointed 'militia'!

Get real. With all the various armed police agencies in the US, do you really think that there is a need for militia these days or that the government would tolerated it?

[marstons]

The U.S. government has become dysfunctional mostly due to republican/right wing obstructionism. The elected officials are supposed to reflect the will of the people. The VAST MAJORITY of Americans were for this reform but it lost almost entirely due to the power of a radical right wing fringe group -- the notorious NRA. Obama needs to bring this fight to the PEOPLE. The legislature is USELESS. The only silver lining is that this sets up a major pro Obama shakeup in the next midterm elections.

How do you know?

I would imagine that the senators are well aware of public opinion, especially considering that next year is a mid-term election for some, so would be very mindful of reflecting public opinion if they wished to retain their seats.

What really annoys you is that the Senate did not vote the way you wanted it to, that's democracy for you, and having read some of your other posts on other topics, I don't think that you are representative of the majority of the American population.

Does that mean you think the majority of Americans think its OK to be able to buy assault rifles etc, just curious as a non USA citizen who is totally bemused at the lack of up roar with present gun ownership laws. Genuinely just interested not knocking as I visited states many times and always loved it.

[AnotherOneAmerican]

Militia

A group of untrained citizens who are prepared to band together in the defence of their community.

I don't see how that definition is NRA propaganda.

If I can find three or four friends who are prepared to join me in the defence of our town, we are a militia.

I'm sure that the rest of your town would be glad to find that it's under the gun law of a few self-appointed 'militia'!

Get real. With all the various armed police agencies in the US, do you really think that there is a need for militia these days or that the government would tolerated it?

It was written in the constitution to protect the American people from their government.

Doesn't matter what you or I think, or what the government wants.

[ABCer]

It always surprises me that gun issues in the US make so much news, and that others make so much noise about it.

The US has far fewer gun deaths per capita than the most dangerous countries, including Thailand. If you want to keep busy, just read the news in Thailand, with less than 1/5 the population.

Here's a chart showing gun murders per 100,000 people, which would calm logical minds. I doubt if it will affect irrational or hysterical minds which are run by emotion instead of facts.

Link

At last somebody is getting to the roots of the problem!

I do have a chart....of the tens of millions of UNARMED civilians that perished under the rule of Stalin, Mao and Hitler...

Tyrants hate an armed population!!!!

The current debate in the US has nothing to do with a few random shootings..

It's all about -eventually- removing guns from the populace...

All governments want control. Armed people are a problem. Let's tell them that guns kill while we (governments) arm ourselves at the expense of the same people.

[Morden]

Militia

A group of untrained citizens who are prepared to band together in the defence of their community.

I don't see how that definition is NRA propaganda.

If I can find three or four friends who are prepared to join me in the defence of our town, we are a militia.

I'm sure that the rest of your town would be glad to find that it's under the gun law of a few self-appointed 'militia'!

Get real. With all the various armed police agencies in the US, do you really think that there is a need for militia these days or that the government would tolerated it?

It was written in the constitution to protect the American people from their government.

Doesn't matter what you or I think, or what the government wants.

And the Second Amendment has already been modified by legislation and the Courts. A nation that wants to change according to the needs of the times will accept that.

Oh, and if your government wanted ever to subdue its citizens militarily, it wouldn't walk up and down the streets with guns. If you really want to see how the government is taking away the rights of the US citizens, read the PATRIOT Act.

[Scott]

A number of off-topic posts and replies have been deleted. If you only purpose in posting is to inflame and bait other posters into an off-topic argument, you are welcome to stop posting in this thread.

There is a lot of important news out there.

[JDGRUEN]

Background checks have NOTHING to do with the second amendment! Or most any legislation regulating gun ownership of CIVILIANS. This militia? What militia? Some NRA gun fanatics playing with guns doesn't a militia make. Nobody is talking about a total ban on civilian gun ownership and only a few extremists are talking about trying to kill the second amendment. It's about reasonable and more nationally effective regulations.

The NRA with all their dirty gun money has sold the American people a bag of lies about what the second amendment actually is and what it actually means.

You need to look up the definition of militia.

As long as there is a local branch of the NRA it fits the constitution.

According to the NRA, a cynically and absurdly over powerful LOBBYING organization, I'm sure it does. Dude, all you are doing is spouting NRA propaganda. The small minority of Americans who are NRA gun fanatics have way too much power for their numbers at this point because they advocate policies against the will of the vast majority in the wake of the river of GUN VIOLENCE blood.

There are estimates of gun owners in American between 70 and 100 Million. The vast majority of whom support what the NRA and many other gun owner organizations want. NRA membership is about 4 million. The NRA is only the most visible symbol of the gun rights support in the USA ... You are behind the times if you believe that the NRA is the only or even the most significant gun rights organization ... NRA is just a well known name. The U.S. news media makes the NRA what it is - always pointing to the NRA and not to the near 100 million gun rights advocates.

[Morden]

Background checks have NOTHING to do with the second amendment! Or most any legislation regulating gun ownership of CIVILIANS. This militia? What militia? Some NRA gun fanatics playing with guns doesn't a militia make. Nobody is talking about a total ban on civilian gun ownership and only a few extremists are talking about trying to kill the second amendment. It's about reasonable and more nationally effective regulations.

The NRA with all their dirty gun money has sold the American people a bag of lies about what the second amendment actually is and what it actually means.

You need to look up the definition of militia.

As long as there is a local branch of the NRA it fits the constitution.

According to the NRA, a cynically and absurdly over powerful LOBBYING organization, I'm sure it does. Dude, all you are doing is spouting NRA propaganda. The small minority of Americans who are NRA gun fanatics have way too much power for their numbers at this point because they advocate policies against the will of the vast majority in the wake of the river of GUN VIOLENCE blood.

There are estimates of gun owners in American between 70 and 100 Million. The vast majority of whom support what the NRA and many other gun owner organizations want. NRA membership is about 4 million. The NRA is only the most visible symbol of the gun rights support in the USA ... You are behind the times if you believe that the NRA is the only or even the most significant gun rights organization ... NRA is just a well known name. The U.S. news media makes the NRA what it is - always pointing to the NRA and not to the near 100 million gun rights advocates.

And what about the rights of people to go about their business safe from a saviour NRA supporter toting his weapon? When will their rights be recognised?

[JDGRUEN]

The U.S. government has become dysfunctional mostly due to republican/right wing obstructionism. The elected officials are supposed to reflect the will of the people. The VAST MAJORITY of Americans were for this reform but it lost almost entirely due to the power of a radical right wing fringe group -- the notorious NRA. Obama needs to bring this fight to the PEOPLE. The legislature is USELESS. The only silver lining is that this sets up a major pro Obama shakeup in the next midterm elections.

How do you know?

I would imagine that the senators are well aware of public opinion, especially considering that next year is a mid-term election for some, so would be very mindful of reflecting public opinion if they wished to retain their seats.

What really annoys you is that the Senate did not vote the way you wanted it to, that's democracy for you, and having read some of your other posts on other topics, I don't think that you are representative of the majority of the American population.

Does that mean you think the majority of Americans think its OK to be able to buy assault rifles etc, just curious as a non USA citizen who is totally bemused at the lack of up roar with present gun ownership laws. Genuinely just interested not knocking as I visited states many times and always loved it.

'Assault Rifle' is a term exploited by the Liberal / Leftist gun grabbers. Gun haters portray an 'Assault Rifle' as a Fully Automatic firing rifle - one trigger pull gives a fire hose of bullets. This big lie is used to inflame the public, In truth, an assault rife is a Semi-Automatic rifle - multiple trigger pulls to fire multiple bullets - no different than a semi-automatic pistol. Assault rifles also have a pistol grip stock extension, a flash suppressor and a few other treatments - otherwise they are the same as other rifles without these things that are not called Assault Rifles.

Propaganda is propagana and the gun haters are good at spreading disinformation, misinformation and propaganda. The Supreme Court of the United States has ruled that under the 2nd. Amendment to the U.S. Constitution Individual Citizens have the right to keep and bear arms... not just as defined as a militia. The thrust of the Gun Haters is not to just expand background checks it is to bring about full registration then Confiscation. Thus the reason gun rights advocates fight tooth and nail to stop any more regulation of any kind... bottom line. The gun haters can't change the Constitution to eliminate gun ownership (they don't have the votes or support to do that and never will) so they want to back door eliminating the citizens rights under the 2nd. Admendment. Thus obama and the gun haters are furious.

[Morden]

The U.S. government has become dysfunctional mostly due to republican/right wing obstructionism. The elected officials are supposed to reflect the will of the people. The VAST MAJORITY of Americans were for this reform but it lost almost entirely due to the power of a radical right wing fringe group -- the notorious NRA. Obama needs to bring this fight to the PEOPLE. The legislature is USELESS. The only silver lining is that this sets up a major pro Obama shakeup in the next midterm elections.

How do you know?

I would imagine that the senators are well aware of public opinion, especially considering that next year is a mid-term election for some, so would be very mindful of reflecting public opinion if they wished to retain their seats.

What really annoys you is that the Senate did not vote the way you wanted it to, that's democracy for you, and having read some of your other posts on other topics, I don't think that you are representative of the majority of the American population.

Does that mean you think the majority of Americans think its OK to be able to buy assault rifles etc, just curious as a non USA citizen who is totally bemused at the lack of up roar with present gun ownership laws. Genuinely just interested not knocking as I visited states many times and always loved it.

'Assault Rifle' is a term exploited by the Liberal / Leftist gun grabbers. Gun haters portray an 'Assault Rifle' as a Fully Automatic firing rifle - one trigger pull gives a fire hose of bullets. This big lie is used to inflame the public, In truth, an assault rife is a Semi-Automatic rifle - multiple trigger pulls to fire multiple bullets - no different than a semi-automatic pistol. Assault rifles also have a pistol grip stock extension, a flash suppressor and a few other treatments - otherwise they are the same as other rifles without these things that are not called Assault Rifles.

Propaganda is propagana and the gun haters are good at spreading disinformation, misinformation and propaganda. The Supreme Court of the United States has ruled that under the 2nd. Amendment to the U.S. Constitution Individual Citizens have the right to keep and bear arms... not just as defined as a militia. The thrust of the Gun Haters is not to just expand background checks it is to bring about full registration then Confiscation. Thus the reason gun rights advocates fight tooth and nail to stop any more regulation of any kind... bottom line. The gun haters can't change the Constitution to eliminate gun ownership (they don't have the votes or support to do that and never will) so they want to back door eliminating the citizens rights under the 2nd. Admendment. Thus obama and the gun haters are furious.

The thrust of the Gun Haters is not to just expand background checks it is to bring about full registration then Confiscation.

That's misinformation. The use of the term 'gun haters' is emotive twaddle. Many gun owners in the US, for all you know, may favour stricter gun laws. No-one has suggested that confiscation other than the NRA and it's supporters.

If assault rifles are ordinary guns with bits and bobs added to them, why would anyone want to keep one other than at the gun club? Your argument that they are virtually the same as standard rifles gets close to suggesting that they should be banned too! But it's only you who, as far as I am aware, has mentioned the similarity.

[JDGRUEN]

To: Morden ....

I do not know of any crime statistics or arrest records showing that NRA members commit gun crimes. Gun crimes in America - by a overwhelming majority - are committed by garden variety criminals who obtain guns illegally or by mentally disturbed people. If you can produce any crime statistics showing that NRA members commit gun crimes - please post them and the source. Just because some Americans might feel threatened by law abiding citizens owning and carrying guns doesn't give anyone the right to deny their rights to carry guns granted under the U.S. Constitution as Amended. If you don't like citizens owning and carrying guns in the USA - then mount a campaign to revoke the 2nd. Amendment.

[Morden]

To: Morden ....

I do not know of any crime statistics or arrest records showing that NRA members commit gun crimes. Gun crimes in America - by a overwhelming majority - are committed by garden variety criminals who obtain guns illegally or by mentally disturbed people. If you can produce any crime statistics showing that NRA members commit gun crimes - please post them and the source. Just because some Americans might feel threatened by law abiding citizens owning and carrying guns doesn't give anyone the right to deny their rights to carry guns granted under the U.S. Constitution as Amended. If you don't like citizens owning and carrying guns in the USA - then mount a campaign to revoke the 2nd. Amendment.

At first I thought that you had missed my point but, later, you acknowledge that I was referring to those who carry weapons, desperately hoping to save a store full of people who don't carry them. I'd rather face one looney gunman than a room full of wannabe Special Agents waving their, barely used, weapons around.

The 2A doesn't need revocation. All that's needed is sensible laws and the enforcement thereof.

[JDGRUEN]

To: Morden ....

I do not know of any crime statistics or arrest records showing that NRA members commit gun crimes. Gun crimes in America - by a overwhelming majority - are committed by garden variety criminals who obtain guns illegally or by mentally disturbed people. If you can produce any crime statistics showing that NRA members commit gun crimes - please post them and the source. Just because some Americans might feel threatened by law abiding citizens owning and carrying guns doesn't give anyone the right to deny their rights to carry guns granted under the U.S. Constitution as Amended. If you don't like citizens owning and carrying guns in the USA - then mount a campaign to revoke the 2nd. Amendment.

At first I thought that you had missed my point but, later, you acknowledge that I was referring to those who carry weapons, desperately hoping to save a store full of people who don't carry them. I'd rather face one looney gunman than a room full of wannabe Special Agents waving their, barely used, weapons around.

The 2A doesn't need revocation. All that's needed is sensible laws and the enforcement thereof.

But like others you keep ignoring the 'Shall not be infringed" part

[Morden]

To: Morden ....

I do not know of any crime statistics or arrest records showing that NRA members commit gun crimes. Gun crimes in America - by a overwhelming majority - are committed by garden variety criminals who obtain guns illegally or by mentally disturbed people. If you can produce any crime statistics showing that NRA members commit gun crimes - please post them and the source. Just because some Americans might feel threatened by law abiding citizens owning and carrying guns doesn't give anyone the right to deny their rights to carry guns granted under the U.S. Constitution as Amended. If you don't like citizens owning and carrying guns in the USA - then mount a campaign to revoke the 2nd. Amendment.

At first I thought that you had missed my point but, later, you acknowledge that I was referring to those who carry weapons, desperately hoping to save a store full of people who don't carry them. I'd rather face one looney gunman than a room full of wannabe Special Agents waving their, barely used, weapons around.

The 2A doesn't need revocation. All that's needed is sensible laws and the enforcement thereof.

But like others you keep ignoring the 'Shall not be infringed" part

So do the lawmakers and the Courts!

[JDGRUEN]

To: Morden ....

I do not know of any crime statistics or arrest records showing that NRA members commit gun crimes. Gun crimes in America - by a overwhelming majority - are committed by garden variety criminals who obtain guns illegally or by mentally disturbed people. If you can produce any crime statistics showing that NRA members commit gun crimes - please post them and the source. Just because some Americans might feel threatened by law abiding citizens owning and carrying guns doesn't give anyone the right to deny their rights to carry guns granted under the U.S. Constitution as Amended. If you don't like citizens owning and carrying guns in the USA - then mount a campaign to revoke the 2nd. Amendment.

At first I thought that you had missed my point but, later, you acknowledge that I was referring to those who carry weapons, desperately hoping to save a store full of people who don't carry them. I'd rather face one looney gunman than a room full of wannabe Special Agents waving their, barely used, weapons around.

The 2A doesn't need revocation. All that's needed is sensible laws and the enforcement thereof.

But like others you keep ignoring the 'Shall not be infringed" part

So do the lawmakers and the Courts!

You are correct - they do ... and we gun rights - Constitutional Rights advocates keep fighting against their efforts to undermine the Constitution. And right now we're winning...

[JDGRUEN]

TO: F430murci:

Great generalization but not statistically significant ... And please tell me how owning an 'assault rifle, body armor and ammo is against the law in Montana... If it was half the population of Montana would be subject to arrest. Anecdotal stories do not statistics make..

[F430murci]

TO: F430murci:

Great generalization but not statistically significant ... And please tell me how owning an 'assault rifle, body armor and ammo is against the law in Montana... If it was half the population of Montana would be subject to arrest. Anecdotal stories do not statistics make..

It will be statistically significant to the two year old daughter that lost her mother, dad will be in jail and she will be raised by relatives. It is signficant to those poor children waterboarded and subjected to child abuse. I actually feel sorry for you if you cannot see that and that your attachment or feeling of entitlement overrides your ability to have compassion or empathy for those that suffer. It is what it is. You guys can win this debate, because with that mentaility you are actually the losers.