Thai Gf First Visit To Uk Refused - What Next?

[GarryUK]

Brief history: Met my girlfriend in Oct 2012, returned to Thailand Dec 2012 for Christmas and New Year following which my GF moved back home to her parents, and I returned to Thailand for a third visit in March when we applied for a tourist visa for her. It probably won't shock most of the people that offered advice in my original posts, but had the decision back end of last week which was a refusal. The letter stated "You have applied for an entry clearance to visit the UK for 24 weeks. I have consided your application under paragraph 41 of the UK immigration rules. blah blah blah. I have therefore refused your application because I am not satisfied, on the balance of probabilities, that you meet all of the requirement of the above paragraph(s) of the Immigration Rules".

Breaking down the letter, the blah blah blah seems to come down to four points:

1. "you have provided a call history log from worldsim which shows calls to your mobile but it does not match the mobile number given by your sponsor, and a call history log from Orange showing calls made to your number between December 2012 and February 2013". Okay, so the internet printouts of the WorldSIM logs don't bare my name, but I thought it was obvious when you see a 10 minute call on Orange cost me £14 that I bought/use a WorldSIM exclusively for calls to the GF, only using my Orange phone when absolutely necessary (because WorldSIM VoIP is pretty unreliable at connecting and not always very clear). Would including a printout of the page baring my name and a clearer explanation in my sponsor letter as to the existence of a second phone help, or how do I fix this?

2. "Your sponsor letter states that you met in October 2012 and are in daily contact via FB and Skype however you have provided no evidence of this contact. This casts doubt over whether your relationship with your sponsor is as stated which casts doubt over your intentions in travelling to the UK". In the sponsor letter I stated that you cannot export logs detailing calls made via FB video, or Skype video (paid calls are logged, free Internet video chats are not). I have painstakingly copied over 15000 lines of conversation from FB chat which took many hours but as it's in the format time, person, conversation and blank each on new lines so even setting for font size to 8 it's a whopping 360 pages long - I wish I could somehow import it into Excel having time, person and conversatio in 3 colums on a single line, that'd reduce the number of pages immensly. I hope to produce something similar from Skype which, unlike FB, at least shows video call duration, but again there's no export function or simple logs I can print. Are these going to be any good, or will I spend hours producing something they'll not accept?

3. "You have stated that you will also visit your aunt in the UK but have provided no evidence of your aunt's immigration status in the UK, or that she is aware of your intended visit, which again casts doubt over the circumstances of your proposed trip". Easy one to fix, the aunt will email us both inviting her to visit, and is obtaining certified copies of her English passport showing her as a British Citizen, and her marriage certificate. I'm assuming I don't need the husbands passport or any documentation from her gaining ILR due to the fact that she has British citizenship?

4. "You have described yourself as unemployed and have stated that you are wholly financially dependent upon your sponsor, however you have provided no evidence of this regular support. I must also note that you have no evidence of assets or property, which might encourage your presence in your county and you have submitted no evidence of your current financial cirucmstances". Okay the first bit was an oversight so I'm putting together bank statements (already given) highlighting ATM withdrawls in October, December and April, a bank transfer in November, and Western Union payment summaries and receipts for payments made 25/01, 31/01 and 27/02. We'll also copy her bank book which will show corresponding receipts for the Western Union payments (less fees), but when paid in cash she never put it in the bank so there's no real proof that I gave it to her, just that I withdrew fairly large sums on the last day or so of my trips. What can we do about the assets and property remark though? She's 26, prior to me was single, living at home with her parents (now at least), so what assets is she likely to have? We've talked about paying a sinsod for which her mum will sign over land ownership to my GF, but I learned today that doesn't include the house, just the land it's on. Aside from the financial risk to me is this wise, will having the land signed over help the visa, and should I involve a solicitor to make sure it's really given to her?

So... sorry it's a long post, but thoughts please. Is a clearer explanation about the WorldSIM number, including that number in my contact details, and showing the registration details page enough to address point 1. Are manually exported conversation histories going to be okay, and should I remove, black out or leave any personal/rude conversations as she says <deleted> an awful lot, and will these address point 2. Is the aunts passport enough to address point 3 now she's a British citizen? And I'm sure the bank/WU transfers are okay but what about the ATM withdrawals, but of more concern should we buy/transfer the land into her name to address point 4?

Heeeeeeelp

It pretty much looks like they don't think she'll go home, so what else can I do to make them believe it's in both our interests for her to do so. In the sponsor letter I said "We are applying for a General Visitor Visa as we feel this best fits our circumstances. We understand its conditions and limitations with regard to the fact that she must not take any form of work whilst in the UK, she must return to Thailand before the visa expires, and that she is not entitled to free healthcare during her stay". I also wrote "The primary purpose of her visit to the UK is to meet my family before we return to Thailand to marry". Would it help to add something I found in another post "We hope to apply for a Settlement Visa at a later date and do not want to jeopardise xxxx"s future application by failing to comply with all visit visa conditions, including leaving the UK at the end of the visit"?

[Rajab Al Zarahni]

Garry:

Are you currently in Thailand ?

I don't think you will solve this problem by seeking general advice through the forum. There are a number of shortcomings in your application and for anyone to give you competent advice they would need to interview you personally and see all the available documents including the recent letter.

What is acceptable as evidence and how it is best presented is a huge subject in it's own right. Generally and if at all possible, it is better to rely on evidence that has not been generated electronically, Judges,Lawyers and Immigration officials are often suspicious of electronic evidence and subject it to a higher level of scrutiny. If there is no other alternative then make sure the evidence you submit is clear,sequential and logical.

From scrutiny of your posting I suspect that you have not completed the originating application with sufficient care and attention. I am thinking particularly about your observations at Item 4. Given that you resubmit your application you must read every question with the utmost care and answer precisely. When you have finished the final submission, re-read it a couple of times as if you were a mean spirited official who was inclined to turn it down. This process will help to expose any shortcomings. If the Immigration service has provided a helpline then phone them and explain your difficulties with the evidence, explain how you propose to address the shortcomings and seek their guidance on whether they think that will suffice.

Finally, be polite,pleasant and friendly as this is often the best way of getting people to be helpful when they don't otherwise need to be.

In any event stay calm and apply a systematic and logical approach.

All the best and I trust you achieve a successful outcome.

Edited April 21, 2013 by Rajab Al Zarahni

[rawhod]

Hi Garry

You say"...but I thought it was obvious..."

From experience of our first visa application which was refused, my general advice is not to expect ECO's to draw obvious conclusions. If you have presented information, point out the conclusion for the ECO, however obvious.

The inclusion of an unidentified phone is a basic error. Include invoices for the phone, SIM or bills showing connection to the owner. Everything submitted should be identified as yours or your girlfriends.

I used cheap dialling from the UK, but I included print out from my phone bill showing the intermediary number and a print out of their web page with the numbers I used highlighted for easy identification.

You can "screen print" some FB conversations as examples. Include a downloaded list of dates if possible.

If you use Skype or Messenger video chat, photograph the computer screen and include a clock or watch to verify the time and date as well as your camera dating (ensure the computer, your watch, and your camera are synchronised).

Again, the lack of information on your regular financial support is a basic omission. Show money out of your account, money into her account and how it was transferred.

All this information is required for the ECO to draw the conclusion you want him to draw (and told him to draw).

The "reason to return" is a difficult one. In our first (rejected) application, my then girlfriend, now wife, had no assets. For the second application, we concentrated on the strength of our relationship. (Plus I found she had some land on which she had borrowed money and not paid it back)

[Sjptain]

You will have an uphill battle, and need to provide evidence against each item they have mentioned in their refusal letter.

The person reviewing your case is looking at what has been provided and evaluating whether your GF is going with the intention of not returning, so the more documentation you can provide to suggest she has assets back in Thailand and has a strong case to return back to Thailand the better chance you have.

Back in 2006 we made an application using the people that pester you at the Visa application centre and it was refused, even though she had been the previous year to visit her sister and me (I was working abroad, but managed to come back to visit her during her stay so was not mentioned on the visa application) - a point they mentioned in the refusal. She had been advised not to mention me because I was not working in the Uk. As there is time limit on the refusal appeal we decided to wait the year and reapply - this time I prepared the package, bank statements, pictures, invitation letter from family, addressed points on previous refusal and why I could not provide telephone lists (most of our correspondence was by SMS using pay as you go SIM cards), etc,. If you don't have the information don't make things up politely advise you do not have that information but do have x,y,z. We got the visa and three more successful applications. I have even questioned the visa issuing body on one occasion as we had requested a 2yr visa but only received a 6 month as to what else was required as I thought i had provided sufficient documentation and they requested return of the passport and reissued a 2yr visa. So they can be very fair if you have all the information available.

I find it a lot easier to prepare the package myself then I know who to blame.

Good luck with your application, and don't make things personal with them because they refused or you will both lose out. Look at what they are asking for, if you can make things clearer, do it, they process 100s of applications a week the easier things are presented to them the better chance you have.

[JLCrab]

Met my girlfriend in Oct 2012 As per topic query, what next? Maybe wait until you've established a relationship other than via long-distance on the telephone, of which she may (in theory) have several concurrently.

[wooloomooloo]

Garry - it's a hard knock but your attitude does you no favours, if I'm honest.

The refusal states, on more than one occasion, a lack of evidential documentation. Then you sit back on blah blah blah.

You can only conform with the requirements and take it like a man if it goes bottom up. It's no skin off their nose as it's your money. If you don't pull your socks up then the next refusal will make life that much more difficult.

Build up the relationship and get some help with the next application. I'm happy to offer advice and assistance if you need it

[GarryUK]

Met my girlfriend in Oct 2012 As per topic query, what next? Maybe wait until you've established a relationship other than via long-distance on the telephone, of which she may (in theory) have several concurrently.

I've visited her 3 times, we intend to marry in October 2013. As it's so expensive to keep going out to Thailand and difficult to keep getting time off work, we decided if she can visit for a few months that will give us time to develop the relationship even further than it has, as well as help her decide if she wants to move to the UK. We talk on video twice a day, every day. We don't have and don't want one of those relationships where a Falang visits his Thai GF once a year and doesn't know what she does the rest of the time. And moving to Thailand for a few years isn't an option at the moment as I have a decent job here and am far from old enough to retire.

[GarryUK]

Garry - it's a hard knock but your attitude does you no favours, if I'm honest.

The refusal states, on more than one occasion, a lack of evidential documentation. Then you sit back on blah blah blah.

The trouble with email is that one person can read something one way, while another reads it completely differently. The "blah blah blah" wasn't attitude, it was failing to see how it would help copying the entire text from the refusal letter, especially given that the girlfriend copied it rather than mailed it to me so there are clearly some mistakes, would help other than to double the length of the original post making it too long to read.

Yes, I accept with hindsight that it's easy to see things that could have been included that were not, I actually told my GF we wouldn't need a letter of invitation from her aunt as she was coming to see me not her, we'd just visit occasionally, but as they picked up on that I was clearly wrong. And I incorrectly assumed (as picked up on by rawhod) that when I said in the sponsor letter don't hesitate to contact me if you need anything else that they might phone the WorldSIM to confirm I own it, and that they might phone the aunt to confirm she was aware of her neice's visit, as why else would they require her contact details. We won't make that mistake again.

[JLCrab]

I am an American so I cannot comment specifically on the British UKBA system. But the notion that a Thai citizen can come to visit you in UK so you both can better develop the relationship is not how Immigration departments anywhere look at it. They want for you to establish the relationship before they will grant the right for a person requiring a visa to visit.

[taninthai]

Sorry to bring it down a bit but from the op post i see he is already agreeing sinsot and marriage, g seems you have only spent a couple off months together, be very carefull here you do know the sinsot is suppossed to be returned to you and your wife after the wedding,from your post it seems your not getting it back and there just transferring some land into your girlfriends name honestly i can already see the next propersition from the family ferang you build house on land. ?....tread very carefully and dont rush things as you said your a youngish guy so no need to rush everything.

Sent from my GT-P7500 using Thaivisa Connect Thailand mobile app

[7by7]

The 'what next?' is to decide whether or not it is worth applying again.

If you do, or to be accurate she does, then you must deal with every point of the previous refusal.

Paying sinsot and her parents using that to buy her some land is a waste of time as far as any UK visa application is concerned. It will be seen for what it is; an attempt to artificially bolster her application.

From your OP you seem to know where the problems lie, lack of evidence, and how to deal with them, provide it; but will say a couple of things.

Firstly, you should have explained that you use a low cost card/access number to call her and that this is the number shown on your phone bills.

Had you done that, then I'm sure that you were unable to provide Skype logs etc. would have been accepted.

The ECOs are well aware of modern technology.

However, it may be worthwhile exchanging some emails and including print outs of the headers (the contents are none of the ECOs business) in her next application.

Secondly, if she says she is going to visit her aunt while she is in the UK then include a letter from her aunt confirming this. A copy of her aunt's British passport whilst not essential wont hurt. Her aunt can self certify the copy.

You may find UK Visit Visa Basics helpful.

Feel free to ask any further questions.

[norrona]

do not give her family money as what you call 'sin sod' by any means, the fact that this has been discussed I suspect when you say you are now not going through with it will upset someone down the line as they expected to be off loading some farm land!

do however put together a full and complete application covering what 7x7 says, all the bases covered that they initially refused you on.

the main hurdle she needs to overcome is the 'reason to return' at the end of the visit....in the sponsors letter you could write that she wanted to visit the UK and continue relationship before moving onto the next step which would be marriage.

Good luck

[GarryUK]

Paying sinsot and her parents using that to buy her some land is a waste of time as far as any UK visa application is concerned. It will be seen for what it is; an attempt to artificially bolster her application.

From your OP you seem to know where the problems lie, lack of evidence, and how to deal with them, provide it; but will say a couple of things.

Firstly, you should have explained that you use a low cost card/access number to call her and that this is the number shown on your phone bills.

Had you done that, then I'm sure that you were unable to provide Skype logs etc. would have been accepted.

The ECOs are well aware of modern technology.

However, it may be worthwhile exchanging some emails and including print outs of the headers (the contents are none of the ECOs business) in her next application.

Secondly, if she says she is going to visit her aunt while she is in the UK then include a letter from her aunt confirming this. A copy of her aunt's British passport whilst not essential wont hurt. Her aunt can self certify the copy.

You may find UK Visit Visa Basics helpful.

Feel free to ask any further questions.

As always 7by7 a very helpful answer with guidance. Yes you're right, on some of the points I know we have to include new supporting documents or clarify the information already provided, we're on the same page re the WorldSIM phone and invitation letter & passport from the aunt.

Thank you for your input on the sinsod/land question, I've been having the same thoughts that it might just appear to be a move to address the visa refusal. As it happens we've been talking about it for a long time, but they don't know that.

I have manually copied our chat log from Facebook but think there's far too much information and things said I wouldn't want them to read. Not sure what to do with this information - do I filter it, do I include the odd page or six showing regular consecutive dates and explain there are 360 pages of chat? Although I've not copied the Skype chat it does look better as it shows video call start and duration so perhaps better than Facebook.

[norrona]

Paying sinsot and her parents using that to buy her some land is a waste of time as far as any UK visa application is concerned. It will be seen for what it is; an attempt to artificially bolster her application.

From your OP you seem to know where the problems lie, lack of evidence, and how to deal with them, provide it; but will say a couple of things.

Firstly, you should have explained that you use a low cost card/access number to call her and that this is the number shown on your phone bills.

Had you done that, then I'm sure that you were unable to provide Skype logs etc. would have been accepted.

The ECOs are well aware of modern technology.

However, it may be worthwhile exchanging some emails and including print outs of the headers (the contents are none of the ECOs business) in her next application.

Secondly, if she says she is going to visit her aunt while she is in the UK then include a letter from her aunt confirming this. A copy of her aunt's British passport whilst not essential wont hurt. Her aunt can self certify the copy.

You may find UK Visit Visa Basics helpful.

Feel free to ask any further questions.

As always 7by7 a very helpful answer with guidance. Yes you're right, on some of the points I know we have to include new supporting documents or clarify the information already provided, we're on the same page re the WorldSIM phone and invitation letter & passport from the aunt.

Thank you for your input on the sinsod/land question, I've been having the same thoughts that it might just appear to be a move to address the visa refusal. As it happens we've been talking about it for a long time, but they don't know that.

I have manually copied our chat log from Facebook but think there's far too much information and things said I wouldn't want them to read. Not sure what to do with this information - do I filter it, do I include the odd page or six showing regular consecutive dates and explain there are 360 pages of chat? Although I've not copied the Skype chat it does look better as it shows video call start and duration so perhaps better than Facebook.

that's the idea

[GarryUK]

the main hurdle she needs to overcome is the 'reason to return' at the end of the visit....in the sponsors letter you could write that she wanted to visit the UK and continue relationship before moving onto the next step which would be marriage.

Good luck

I've known from the start that if the application was refused it would be because we struggle to prove she'll go home. In addressing the points raised by the UKBA I've got to provide more proof than 3 pages of photographs and 3 trips to Thailand that the relationship is genuine, and I've got to convince them that we fully intend to return together to Thailand in October to get married.

[norrona]

the main hurdle she needs to overcome is the 'reason to return' at the end of the visit....in the sponsors letter you could write that she wanted to visit the UK and continue relationship before moving onto the next step which would be marriage.

Good luck

I've known from the start that if the application was refused it would be because we struggle to prove she'll go home. In addressing the points raised by the UKBA I've got to provide more proof than 3 pages of photographs and 3 trips to Thailand that the relationship is genuine, and I've got to convince them that we fully intend to return together to Thailand in October to get married.

from memory with my now wifes application it seems like a battle that can never be won but my advice is to keep plugging away and go for it, our application(fiancee visa) was rejected and we had to appeal over similar stuff but it made us more sure that we wanted to be together, all in all from meeting her to her being with me over here in the UK it was best part of a year....but worth it

[David48]

<snip>

However, it may be worthwhile exchanging some emails and including print outs of the headers (the contents are none of the ECOs business) in her next application ...

Great post as always 7x7.

Just a note for any Australians reading this and thinking that the same applies to them.

For my gf's first application for the old 676 (Tourist) Visa ... they actually asked for full copies of the emails, not just the headers! I was sure surprised at the time.

Good luck to the OP with his gf's Visa application.

[lemoncake]

<snip>

However, it may be worthwhile exchanging some emails and including print outs of the headers (the contents are none of the ECOs business) in her next application ...

Great post as always 7x7.

Just a note for any Australians reading this and thinking that the same applies to them.

For my gf's first application for the old 676 (Tourist) Visa ... they actually asked for full copies of the emails, not just the headers! I was sure surprised at the time.

Good luck to the OP with his gf's Visa application.

My Aunt does visa's in Oz.

What they all look for is

1. The "guest" is or has been employed, this insures the person is coming over for the true reasons. ie immigration are not stupid and know bar girl may enter and do enter the country to work in brothels. They also know if man brings over a bar girl, and something goes wrong, she might be dumped and government is going to have to "look after her"

2. Proof that relationship really does exist

3.Some safety net that the "guest" will return back to home country and will not engage in any illegal activity's

[7by7]

I have manually copied our chat log from Facebook but think there's far too much information and things said I wouldn't want them to read. Not sure what to do with this information - do I filter it, do I include the odd page or six showing regular consecutive dates and explain there are 360 pages of chat? Although I've not copied the Skype chat it does look better as it shows video call start and duration so perhaps better than Facebook.

I'd say in your sponsor's letter that you chat regularly on FB and that you have included some samples; half a dozen should be plenty. The ECO isn't going to wade through 360 pages!

I'm not familiar with Skype, but if you can print out a few start times and durations this may help; but will it show that you are talking to her?

Actual videos of chats are no good; they don't accept evidence on electronic media, even CDs, as it may corrupt their systems.

[JLCrab]

Read most of this all again. The OP states in Post #1:

Met my girlfriend in Oct 2012 ...

But nowhere there or subsequent does he say just HOW he met her.

[norrona]

Read most of this all again. The OP states in Post #1:

Met my girlfriend in Oct 2012 ...

But nowhere there or subsequent does he say just HOW he met her.

does it really matter?

[7by7]

Not as far as this forum is concerned, but it wont hurt, may help to say so in his sponsor's letter; which I assume he did.

Not implying anything about the lady in question, but before JLCrab or someone else asks; it doesn't matter what an applicant's past employment was or if s/he met their sponsor 'professionally.' But they should be honest about it.

To be blunt: Ex bar girls do get UK visas; liars don't.

Hopefully that will stop any further uncalled for speculation about this lady's past.

[JLCrab]

Read most of this all again. The OP states in Post #1:

Met my girlfriend in Oct 2012 ...

But nowhere there or subsequent does he say just HOW he met her.

does it really matter?

Not to me but I'm guessing it does to the persons who turned down her Visa application.

[7by7]

See my post above yours.

You say you an American; I can't comment on what the American attitude would be.

[JLCrab]

Given the copious detailed information the OP has provided, it seemed that information was rather conspicuous in its absence.

But I'll tell you what the American attitude would be:

They work off of a profile. There may be many cases with similar relationship characteristics -- mostly these days started online with lots of online interaction and several short term visits by the American to their girlfriend's country. And many of these situations work out just fine.

But then they look at all the times visas have been granted and there was big trouble, overstay, domestic violence, etc. and say that way too many of those cases met the exact same profile.

Edited April 23, 2013 by JLCrab

[7by7]

The copious detailed information he gave is based upon what was said in the refusal notice. As he hasn't mentioned this I think it's fair to assume that neither did the refusal notice and so it is not an issue.

It is certainly none of our business.

Fortunately the UK treats each individual application and each individual applicant on it's and their own merits.

And as this a thread about a UK visa, I think it best that we leave the USA and it's prejudices out of things.

But should I ever want an American visa, I will be sure to seek your advice.

Edited April 23, 2013 by 7by7

[rawhod]

Gary

The "reason to return" is going to be a difficult one for you.

When we made our second application after our first was unsuccessful, my then girlfriend only had a motorbike and a piece of land which she had "pawned". However, we concentrated on the "genuine and subsisting relationship" aspect.

Despite what other people recommend, we included a whole raft of photo's of us together, at her guest house, with her sons, at Wat's, at the zoo, in fact everywhere we had been "together". there were 3 of those small albums.

We included ALL our emails, in full, that we sent to one another from after we met in Nov 2008 until the visa application...two binders about 1 inch thick in total.

We included postcards that I sent to Thailand and preaddressed postcards that she sent me in England.

We included some photo's of the computer screen when we chatted on Messenger.

We included printouts of my call logs and copies of the web pages showing the cheap calling numbers.

We included my air tickets, agenda's and boarding cards for my trips to Thailand.

We included the same for a weeks holiday in Phuket.

We included entry tickets to everywhere we visited together

We included copies of her bank book, copies of my ATM withdrawals to show my financial support.

As you can see, we went to great lengths to demonstrate a "genuine and subsisting relationship"

It was a lot of effort, but it worked.

Double check that everything adds up.

Edited April 23, 2013 by rawhod

[GarryUK]

Not as far as this forum is concerned, but it wont hurt, may help to say so in his sponsor's letter; which I assume he did.

Not implying anything about the lady in question, but before JLCrab or someone else asks; it doesn't matter what an applicant's past employment was or if s/he met their sponsor 'professionally.' But they should be honest about it.

To be blunt: Ex bar girls do get UK visas; liars don't.

Hopefully that will stop any further uncalled for speculation about this lady's past.

I did indeed talk about when and how we met, and about both subsequent visits including where we went together in my sponsors letter. This was also replicated in the many photos provided which included her meeting me at the airport, me meeting her family, our trips to Bangkok and Cha Am, and me meeting her aunt in the UK.

[bobrussell]

My advice is not to panic!

Every reapplication helps to support an on-going relationship. The applicant must cover the weak points detailed in the failed application. Refusals are unlikely to hurt subsequent applications as long as there has been no attempt to deceive.

My wife had her first visit visa rejected (as with this application perhaps with some justification). We did not provide adequate evidence especially photographs to support the relationship.

The relationship is still relatively new and the application incomplete (need confirmation from the provider of accommodation etc) so re-apply. Fill in the gaps and a visa is quite possible.

Lies/deception are a very, very bad idea so stick to the truth at all times. The visa basics section is very useful in the pinned topics section.

Bar girl history etc - don't dwell on the details but be truthful. The ECO has seen it all before.

[wooloomooloo]

The "blah blah blah" wasn't attitude, it was failing to see how it would help copying the entire text from the refusal letter...

Apologies, Garry, and glad to hear you haven't got the attitude because it's the last impediment you need when dealing with officialdom.

As long as you can afford the outlay and prepared to work hard at the investigation and application, you'll succeed.