Should We Learn The Language?

[Naam]

-it is not a cultural enrichment being able to order food in local

lingo and neither is it a cultural enrichment to know the Thai word

for a screwdriver or a pair of pliers one wants to buy in a toolshop.

i respect your opinion if you don't throw at me some ridiculous

and arrogant "it is a must" but tell me instead "i think, in my view,

as far as i am concerned, in my specific case..."

I've been consistent in my position that no one is obligated to learn the language nor should they feel they are. However, I'd respect your opinion a lot more (not that you would or should care) if you didn't work so hard to diminish, dismiss and disparage, well beyond any objective reasoning, any and all possible positives associated with knowing the language. I simply don't believe someone as worldy and intelligent as you apparently are honestly thinks as you claim to (that facility in a language allows nothing more significant than daily conveniences and trivia) or that you would be so ignorant of the links between language and culture or the potential benefits of an increased understanding of both (which is not to say that said benefits are or should be sufficient incentive to learn the language - too subjective an issue for me to argue about and fraught with all sorts of rhetorical pitfalls).

You protest way too much. (And it is quite something to see you of all posters complain about arrogance).

i don't protest, i defend my personal opinion by stating facts and of course also by pulling some legs.

[SteeleJoe]

i don't protest, i defend my personal opinion by stating facts and of course also by pulling some legs.

You know full what I meant in my obvious Hamlet reference: by your absolutely invariable insistence on framing the uses of Thai in the most trivial and pedestrian (and unworthy) ways possible and your mockery of the very notion that it could be of real value, you unwittingly make it obvious why you are doing so...

And you employ a lot more than "facts".

[Naam]

and actually have a meaningful relationship with a huge, huge number of

"normal" Thai women simply by being able to communicate in her

language.

a huge, huge number? finally a valid reason that convinced me that it is abso-<deleted>-lutely mandatory for me to learn Thai. there's only one problem... who is going to convince Mrs Naam?

Edited April 24, 2013 by Naam

[transam]

When I did try once my mrs told me I called the lady a dog.

[SteeleJoe]

Addendum to earlier post replying to Berkshire:

I should have made it even stronger - fact is I almost certainly never would even have MET Mrs SteeleJoe without being able to speak Thai, let alone have a conversation with her.

Having said that, even if she weren't part of my story and never had been, I would still be certain that learning Thai made a profound impact on my life for the better in many, many quantifiable ways as well as those less tangible or easily measured (I was using Thai for 10 years before I met her).

[ayayay]

To integrate into the community you need to be Thai. Learning the language is not relevant to that concept.

Learning Thai has other advantages when outside the main tourist areas, but it also has many disadvantages.

It won't stop them calling you the "f" word either.

Yes, and that I find disrespectful.

The less use of the F - word, the better, the greater chance we will be integrated and fully respected.

[SteeleJoe]

Yes, and that I find disrespectful.

The less use of the F - word, the better, the greater chance we will be integrated and fully respected.

Oh, really? Never would have worked that out from the fact that you post the same thing over and over ( and paint the word and its use in the most ridiculously extreme and un-nuanced ways) at seemingly every opportunity. Edited April 24, 2013 by SteeleJoe

[dao16]

Yes, and that I find disrespectful.

The less use of the F - word, the better, the greater chance we will be integrated and fully respected.

Oh, really? Never would have worked that out from the fact that you post the same thing over and over ( and paint the word and its use in the most ridiculously extreme and un-nuanced ways) at seemingly every opportunity.

Don't know about "ayayay" s previous posts...but I just use the home rule.....if I would say "the Asian guy" or "the/this Thai guy" in the same context, but reversed, I don't have a problem. When people do it in front of me, depending on how it was said, I just say "I am right here" or "My name is X, you know that" and they almost never do it again.

On the other hand, if someone makes a phone call to someone who doesn't know me and they say "Yeah, I am here having a drink with a/the falang" I don't mind. The person on the other side of the line doesn't know me....just knows there is a falang in the apt complex.

[BradinAsia]

I speak decent Thai (read, write OK as well). Once you have the language patterns/grammar down, much is simply knowing vocabulary...

Anyway, I put in time to become OK (not fluent, perhaps) in Thai, but it was largely not worth it in my opinion.

Of a certain age (beyond my teens and early 20s), I am sufficiently comfortable in my being and sufficiently different and lack much in common with the average Thai. Most of the people who would have anything interesting to say to me speak --- English well enough to converse. So, Thai, for me, is largely a dead language. Of almost no value whatsoever. Biggest benefit is simply the cool factor and impressing women (who are easily impressed).

The news papers in Thai - waste.

The news in Thai - waste.

Literature in Thai - largely non-existent.

Save your time, folks. It's not worth it.

Learning Thai does not make much available to us.

Congratulations... This may be one of the most biased and negative posts ever.

[SteeleJoe]

Don't know about "ayayay" s previous posts...but I just use the home rule.....if I would say "the Asian guy" or "the/this Thai guy" in the same context, but reversed, I don't have a problem. When people do it in front of me, depending on how it was said, I just say "I am right here" or "My name is X, you know that" and they almost never do it again.

On the other hand, if someone makes a phone call to someone who doesn't know me and they say "Yeah, I am here having a drink with a/the falang" I don't mind. The person on the other side of the line doesn't know me....just knows there is a falang in the apt complex.

I've been through it so many times over the last 30 years I hope you don't mind if I can't be bothered to go over my whole position in detail but suffice it to say, we are roughly on the same page.

Anyone who thinks it could never be used in a way that's inappropriate or even extremely rude, is frankly rather ignorant and/or foolish.

Anyone who thinks that it is always inappropriate and rude is equally the same...

[Keith67]

To integrate into the community you need to be Thai. Learning the language is not relevant to that concept.

Learning Thai has other advantages when outside the main tourist areas, but it also has many disadvantages.

It won't stop them calling you the "f" word either.

Yes, and that I find disrespectful.

The less use of the F - word, the better, the greater chance we will be integrated and fully respected.

or just learn the Thai for the F-word it's not difficult just listen to them speak it's the word that is used several times in each sentence.

So you want to be intergrated and fully respected, are you going to move into a small house in the village with your wife, wifes sisters and brothers their chilren your wifes mother and father and their parents, get up at 5am to cook the sticky rice and food to take to the farn while you prepare the land to grow the crops so you earn enough money to provide food for the family, then go sit and drink thai wiskey before coming home and going to sleep ready to get up the next morning and start again, all this with no air conditioning in the heat just an old fan.

Good luck on your intergration attempts.

[SteeleJoe]

I speak decent Thai (read, write OK as well). Once you have the language patterns/grammar down, much is simply knowing vocabulary...

Anyway, I put in time to become OK (not fluent, perhaps) in Thai, but it was largely not worth it in my opinion.

Of a certain age (beyond my teens and early 20s), I am sufficiently comfortable in my being and sufficiently different and lack much in common with the average Thai. Most of the people who would have anything interesting to say to me speak --- English well enough to converse. So, Thai, for me, is largely a dead language. Of almost no value whatsoever. Biggest benefit is simply the cool factor and impressing women (who are easily impressed).

The news papers in Thai - waste.

The news in Thai - waste.

Literature in Thai - largely non-existent.

Save your time, folks. It's not worth it.

Learning Thai does not make much available to us.

Congratulations... This may be one of the most biased and negative posts ever.

It's a trite comment but true: his stated view says loads about him and little if anything about Thais or Thai.

Personally, I have had, and regularly do have, meaningful and enlightening conversations about religion, politics, social issues, quality cinema, literature, relationships, travel, family, psychology, and business and on and on...not a week goes by where I don't have some good conversation in Thai (with Thais from backgrounds ranging from taxi driver to PhD holding colleagues and everywhere between). And that's been the case for decades.

[StreetCowboy]

a huge, huge number? finally a valid reason that convinced me that it is abso-<deleted>-lutely mandatory for me to learn Thai. there's only one problem... who is going to convince Mrs Naam?

and actually have a meaningful relationship with a huge, huge number of

"normal" Thai women simply by being able to communicate in her

language.

He maybe meant "with a small selection drawn from a huge, huge number" - though as a financial player of internationally significant proportions, you may have a different view of what constitutes a huge, huge number. I might have been tempted to say "many" or "most" or "any"

SC

Edited April 24, 2013 by StreetCowboy

[BradinAsia]

I'll agree with K. Naam on this one: Whether you order the food in Thai language yourself, point at a picture on the wall or at someone else's plate, or have your Thai companion order for you, the food is still the same.

Yes, the food is the same, but your ability to relate to the world around you is severely diminished.

[PaullyW]

I speak decent Thai (read, write OK as well). Once you have the language patterns/grammar down, much is simply knowing vocabulary...

Anyway, I put in time to become OK (not fluent, perhaps) in Thai, but it was largely not worth it in my opinion.

Of a certain age (beyond my teens and early 20s), I am sufficiently comfortable in my being and sufficiently different and lack much in common with the average Thai. Most of the people who would have anything interesting to say to me speak --- English well enough to converse. So, Thai, for me, is largely a dead language. Of almost no value whatsoever. Biggest benefit is simply the cool factor and impressing women (who are easily impressed).

The news papers in Thai - waste.

The news in Thai - waste.

Literature in Thai - largely non-existent.

Save your time, folks. It's not worth it.

Learning Thai does not make much available to us.

Congratulations... This may be one of the most biased and negative posts ever.

It's a trite comment but true: his stated view says loads about him and little if anything about Thais or Thai.

Personally, I have had, and regularly do have, meaningful and enlightening conversations about religion, politics, social issues, quality cinema, literature, relationships, travel, family, psychology, and business and on and on...not a week goes by where I don't have some good conversation in Thai (with Thais from backgrounds ranging from taxi driver to PhD holding colleagues and everywhere between). And that's been the case for decades.

Surely they do exist.

What I should have said is that such people (in any country) are often a great deal of work to find. Thailand, with the education system killing intellectually curiosity in many Thais and then teaching the non-confrontational nature as well, it's really hard to find suitable friends/family members/coworkers/etc. and doubly also quite difficult to have open conversations with them when there is disagreement.

I have lost Thai friends in the past over simple disagreements about esoteric topics.

All to say that, in such a case, learning Thai has dubious value if you 1) can't find suitable conversation partners, 2) even among conversation partners who find topics of discussion interesting, you fear for expressing differing views about a topic.

Edited April 24, 2013 by PaullyW

[transam]

I'll agree with K. Naam on this one: Whether you order the food in Thai language yourself, point at a picture on the wall or at someone else's plate, or have your Thai companion order for you, the food is still the same.

Yes, the food is the same, but your ability to relate to the world around you is severely diminished.

Deaf and dumb folk get bye, wherever they go.

[AnotherOneAmerican]

Neeranam If you are married to a Thai and have paid tax for 3 years, it's very easy to get Thai citizenship, much easier than many developed countries. You don't even need to be able to read and write Thai.Please explain how you think they are never going to give it to you. Don't know why you think this,as it's just not so. Very difficult and is usually a long process for a Farang to obtain Thai citizenship. Simple check out how many farangs gain a Thai passport each year.

Could you clarify? You start by saying it is very easy to get Thai citizenship, and then you end by saying it is very difficult.

I am pretty sure there are language requirements, both reading and writing, that many would find difficult to pass.

I agree it is both easy and hard.

Really, really easy if either your mother or father were Thai.

Easy if you are married to a Thai and working in BK on a full expat package.

Easy if you are a foreign female married to a male Thai.

Hard if you an English teacher (or any other type of low-paid foreign male)

[SteeleJoe]

Surely they do exist. My wife is one of those advanced degree-holding Thais who is sufficiently intellectually curious to find this type of conversation interesting. Thing is, though, she speaks near-native English.

What I should have said is that such people (in any country) are often a great deal of work to find. Thailand, with the education system killing intellectually curiosity in many Thais and then teaching the non-confrontational nature as well, it's really hard to find suitable friends/family members/coworkers/etc. and doubly also quite difficult to have open conversations with them when there is disagreement.

I have lost Thai friends in the past over simple disagreements about esoteric topics.

All to say that, in such a case, learning Thai has dubious value if you 1) can't find suitable conversation partners, 2) even among conversation partners who find topics of discussion interesting, you fear for expressing differing views about a topic.

Now THAT was an excellent post.

But I perhaps haven't had quite as much difficulty in finding them and don't have much of that fear (though one must choose the appropriate people and circumstance, I'm pretty good at gab in general and have some skill at diplomacy and means by which to approach things in a way less likely to cause offense - and the language skills to allow the necessary nuance and care).

[SteeleJoe]

I'll agree with K. Naam on this one: Whether you order the food in Thai language yourself, point at a picture on the wall or at someone else's plate, or have your Thai companion order for you, the food is still the same.

Yes, the food is the same, but your ability to relate to the world around you is severely diminished.

Deaf and dumb folk get bye, wherever they go.

No one, including quite obviously the person you replied to, is questioning the ability to get by without Thai.

That one needn't know any Thai to live here is an exceedingly obvious fact to me. It also strikes me as a very poor reason not to learn it.

[AnotherOneAmerican]

Actually, thought of two really good reasons for everyone to learn Thai.

You can watch the Thai soaps, which I really enjoy (Central Thai).

You can listen to Thai country music, which is really cool (mainly sung in Issan and Southern Thai).

OK, chaps, off you all go.

Those of you talking about menus, learning to read Thai menus and order food in Thai is trivial and is not "speaking Thai".

If you can't read a Thai menu after living here a year or more, you ought to be stood up against a wall and put out of your misery.

Speaking Thai is all about expressing your emotions, chatting and joking with Thais.

[thequietman]

There are infinite reasons why NOT to learn, but they all involve laziness and ignorance.

[bigbearjohn]

Well, I really do like the Thai people. I want to

learn the language so I can share more with them.

I think not being able to speak a country's language

locks you out of so many opportunities.

[Mudcrab]

Which Thai language will you learn?

Southern, Issan, Central or Lanna?

City or village or Hill-tribe?

Chances of your loved one or her family speaking Central Thai as a first language are practically zero.

Speaking some backwoods dialect will do you no good at all in any city or other area of the country.

I don;'t see why you assume that all TV posters are the same as yourself. My wife is university educated, about the same age and me, and certainly not from the boondocks of Isaan or somesuch. Lao or Isaan dialect would do me no good whatsoever with the in-laws - they'd look .at me like I was mad!

to be honest, I think reading is as important as speaking. Speaking you can replace with pointing and sign language. Reading is irreplaceable.

SC

i think reading is optional but most important is speaking. since quite some time i have the urge to discuss with our gardener the latest technical publications on "increasing gas turbine efficiency". i would be also very interested to hear his opinions whether "quantitative easing in combination with the financial crisis in Cyprus will break up the European Union".

that's why i have set my mind on learning Thai, no matter how many decades it will take. after all, our gardener is still a young man and most probably still alive once i master the required level.

So you're a slow learner huh?

[Mudcrab]

I had a strange experience a couple of years ago.

well worn cliche that novices often come up with.The reality is that if Thais don't understand what you are saying you are probably speaking unclearly and inaccurately.Went into a mom n pop store, the ones with the old Chinese ladies that sell everything, I spoke to mama who looked right through me, didnt understand a word.

The young girl sat right beside her understood perfectly what I wanted, then repeated word for word what I had just asked for.

I am sure there are times when some of the older Thais just dont expect farangs to be speaking Thai.

Can you shed any light on this phenomenon, has it ever happened to you?

Any insight would be appreciated.

It has happened to me once that I vaguely recall (This at a point where when I speak on the phone I am mistaken for a Thai) and I've heard a lot of people say it happened to them (some of whom can speak Thai well enough - though so e of whom may have just spoke Thai too poorly to understand easily).

No insight other than there is a phenomenon regarding brain function (that I am not qualified to explain well but will try to) wherein we literally will not recognize something that we don't believe exists: it explains why you can be looking for something and not see it even when it's right in front of you...

So you answered the question already: some of the older Thais just dont expect farangs to be speaking Thai and thus their brain doesn't register it for a moment or more...

Can't find something.....my wife calls it a man look....she can find it everytime. I know exactly what you are saying.

[Mudcrab]

Cannot see why I have to make an effort.

Retiree, 6 years here. Why should I?

I'm pretty good at linguistics. Easily communicate in German, Italian, Spanish, Slavic and French.

I refuse to learn Thai because of their weird alphabet. No racist connotations here. The same I can say about

Hebrew, Chinese, Japanese and Arabic. I refuse to 'absorb' their Culture. I think mine is not inferior. The same goes for food.

True, I am here... But luckily this is a free country, the people are nice and friendly, most of them understand me

and I understand them in as little interaction as we have. Those close to me speak English. In case there are

difficulties - hands, fingers, drawings or nearby volunteers help. No problems. Why should I make a great effort to learn this language?

If I did, what GREAT piece of WORLD CULTURE would I be able to read in original? Bible? Ramayana? Krishna? Bhagavad-Gita?

Or maybe I am missing a great work of literature?

Let us be honest, if I did make a huge effort and learn Thai language - I would still always be a freak - farang here. So?

I guess it all comes down to respect of the country and their people. Completely up to you if you want to learn the language or not. I won't hold it against you.

[Mudcrab]

The discussion was about the verb length of the word jeut, plus the tone.

Everyone in the conversation knew what was being spoken about, however due to the Thai rote learning system no one could explain it.

The Thai education system is indeed not exemplary, but that's not the reason that native speakers of Thai are generally unable to articulate the tones rules derived from spelling. Everyone learns his mother language differently from a second language. We learn the mother language by trial and error with many corrections from mothers and others. But learning a second language that way would be inefficient even if we could find a mother to correct us all day long, which we can't. So the foreigner must learn how to determine the correct tone from the spelling rules. Thais have simply memorized the tones for their entire vocabulary long since and don't have to rely on the spelling rules. Similarly, any native English speaker can generate the sentences "seeing is believing" and "seeing his cup was empty, the customer called for a refill" although very few Americans would be able to explain the difference between a gerund and a present participle.

And I suspect nor would many of the younger generation of native born English speakers.

[John Egil]

Which Thai language will you learn?

Southern, Issan, Central or Lanna?

City or village or Hill-tribe?

Chances of your loved one or her family speaking Central Thai as a first language are practically zero.

Speaking some backwoods dialect will do you no good at all in any city or other area of the country.

You end up learning central Thai, and all her relatives chat away with each other in another dialect that you still can't speak or understand.

My wife and all of her family speaks central thai

Edited April 24, 2013 by John Egil

[Mudcrab]

My retired parents who have full lives playing golf, cookery classes, history club, charity work, religious stuff, bowling, visiting friends, dinners out, opera, movies, bingo, etc. They couldn't of course do this if they couldn't speak the language.

When I retire I want a similar full life and speaking the language of the country I choose to retire in is essential. I wouldn't choose a country where I couldn't or wouldn't learn. Sounds like a nightmare.

Italian Opera.

Many of the traditional operas were sung in Neapolitan, so most Italians (and everyone else) can't understand the language, but they still attend.

They sing in ice cream? Should go down well in Pattaya.!!

[Mudcrab]

Only for citizenship.

Can't speak for the USA; but the UK requires a certain level of English from most applicants who wish to come to the UK to study, work or live.

Applicants have to prove they've reached this level in order to get their visa; unless they are living in an Anglophone country already.

The level required to live indefinitley in the UK is the same as that required for British citizenship.

Those who wish to obtain indefinite leave to remain in the UK, or become British citizens, have to pay for their own language lessons at the foriegn student rate. Unless they've lived in the UK for at least three years after which they can pay the same as a British student would.

But the lessons are never free. Neither are the exams.

I think Australia is pretty much the same....but the level of the language ability is still very low. I saw a photo of a British MP in Parliament , recently, with an interpreter!!

[Mudcrab]

Here's a simple way for the individual to answer this question: ask yourself: "Do I think it's okay for immigrants to come to live in my home country and refuse to learn to speak the national language? When immigrants do that, does it cause me to think less of them?"

I'm betting that the ones who live there for years yet refuse to learn Thai--and I know a lot of them, sadly--are the same ones most vocal about the "lazy" immigrants in their own country.

I dont give a rats arse about what they say, i oppose to pay taxes to feed them, pay their education, housing,

learning my language, and then when it is concluded that they are good for nuthing give them a life-long pension so they can relocate to, for example Thailand.

Take note that immigrants to my country dont spend a dime on learning my language, -i do, through tax,

but in Thailand it is yet me again who have to pay for language lessons.

Sorry but your apples to oranges comparison is pointless

What country are you from?