Should We Learn The Language?

[Naam]

It turns out I'm too stupid to learn Thai. After 16 years of trying and failing miserably I concluded that my time was better spent learning how to survive here without knowing the language.

you might not be too stupid but it could also be your age and your hearing capability. the ability of hearing and/or discerning high frequency sounds diminishes with every year after age 25. learning a tonal language when you have problems to differentiate between consonants when your wife sits only two meters from you and you mainly here the vowels of the word she speaks disqualifies you from learning Thai. period!

the afore mentioned is only one of the facts some ignorant and arrogant Farangs do not take into consideration when they present their ridiculous and heartbleeding claims how wonderful life has become, how their brain cells were protected from Alzheimer's, how they now understand Thai culture and how they are able to rip off any Thai who has nothing else in mind than ripping off a Farang... after they learned to communicate and participate in highly sophisticated conversations such as "whatcha cookin' for supper today?" or "hey neighbour, what be da weather morrow, rain or shine?"

now i am waiting patiently for more fairy tales such as how much less their dogs are salivating, their grass looks much greener, the chickens laying more and bigger eggs, the village headman awarded them with a decoration and that they are entitled to report every 89 instead of every 90 days with immigration.

So Naam, are you saying you can't learn or don't want to learn?

both applies Neeranam. i was always proud of my language skills although the pride was not really justified because i grew up bilingual which made it much easier for me to acquire additional languages. 8½ years ago, when we decided to settle in Thailand i hired a private teacher, picked up some basic Thai and started to built a home whilst still taking lessons.

the frustrating turning point surfaced when i realised that whatever little Thai i acquired was nearly useless in my function as "construction supervisor". i could neither communicate with the Burmese ladies who were laying the blocks, nor with the Lao, Khmer or whatever Buddha-forsaken dialects speaking other dozen subcontractors except when their boss or supervisor managed a passable English. so i hired a young construction engineer to act as my translator but it turned out that most of his translations were met with a blank stare instead of following his translated instructions. today i am not sure what part it was they did not understand and what part was "let the arrogant young boy wearing a white shirt and a tie talk, we do how we always did... he he he!"

having lived 15 years before (since i retired) like a hermit without any socialising my reaction was "<deleted>...! why wasting my time?" no plans to immerse myself in Thai culture, no intention to convert to Buddhism, a foreign wife and therefore no Thai family connections, no Thai neighbours without near fluency in English. around the same time i could not ignore my hearing problems anymore. not only watching TV became a pain in the àss but also having to ask my wife (who's mother tongue is English) to repeat a sentence twice or even more often. routing TV sound through an equaliser enhancing high frequencies helped for some time but today it's over and out and soon i have to spend 150-200k Baht for the latest sophisticated hearing aids.

day before yesterday i had two TV-members as guests in my home, we had a jolly good time laughing, bitching and emptying a bottle of good Port. but without my acquired lip reader capability it would have turned out not so funny.

[NeverSure]

It turns out I'm too stupid to learn Thai. After 16 years of trying and failing miserably I concluded that my time was better spent learning how to survive here without knowing the language.

you might not be too stupid but it could also be your age and your hearing capability. the ability of hearing and/or discerning high frequency sounds diminishes with every year after age 25. learning a tonal language when you have problems to differentiate between consonants when your wife sits only two meters from you and you mainly here the vowels of the word she speaks disqualifies you from learning Thai. period!

the afore mentioned is only one of the facts some ignorant and arrogant Farangs do not take into consideration when they present their ridiculous and heartbleeding claims how wonderful life has become, how their brain cells were protected from Alzheimer's, how they now understand Thai culture and how they are able to rip off any Thai who has nothing else in mind than ripping off a Farang... after they learned to communicate and participate in highly sophisticated conversations such as "whatcha cookin' for supper today?" or "hey neighbour, what be da weather morrow, rain or shine?"

now i am waiting patiently for more fairy tales such as how much less their dogs are salivating, their grass looks much greener, the chickens laying more and bigger eggs, the village headman awarded them with a decoration and that they are entitled to report every 89 instead of every 90 days with immigration.

[notmyself]

both applies Neeranam. i was always proud of my language skills although the pride was not really justified because i grew up bilingual which made it much easier for me to acquire additional languages. 8½ years ago, when we decided to settle in Thailand i hired a private teacher, picked up some basic Thai and started to built a home whilst still taking lessons.

the frustrating turning point surfaced when i realised that whatever little Thai i acquired was nearly useless in my function as "construction supervisor". i could neither communicate with the Burmese ladies who were laying the blocks, nor with the Lao, Khmer or whatever Buddha-forsaken dialects speaking other dozen subcontractors except when their boss or supervisor managed a passable English. so i hired a young construction engineer to act as my translator but it turned out that most of his translations were met with a blank stare instead of following his translated instructions. today i am not sure what part it was they did not understand and what part was "let the arrogant young boy wearing a white shirt and a tie talk, we do how we always did... he he he!"

having lived 15 years before (since i retired) like a hermit without any socialising my reaction was "<deleted>...! why wasting my time?" no plans to immerse myself in Thai culture, no intention to convert to Buddhism, a foreign wife and therefore no Thai family connections, no Thai neighbours without near fluency in English. around the same time i could not ignore my hearing problems anymore. not only watching TV became a pain in the àss but also having to ask my wife (who's mother tongue is English) to repeat a sentence twice or even more often. routing TV sound through an equaliser enhancing high frequencies helped for some time but today it's over and out and soon i have to spend 150-200k Baht for the latest sophisticated hearing aids.

day before yesterday i had two TV-members as guests in my home, we had a jolly good time laughing, bitching and emptying a bottle of good Port. but without my acquired lip reader capability it would have turned out not so funny.

I for one take pleasure in reading your posts.

[Newguy70]

Dear Op,

I agree with, and expect the same of those who plan to live in my native country.

[NeverSure]

There are plenty of Brits living in Spain for example,who don't speak a word of Spanish!

and i think you might find that the majority on thi board who think it pointless, or claim they are unable to learn thai are brits as well.

Spanish and Italians are very poor with languages also,it's not just the Brits!

Some here are US, some German... Any new detailed skill gets harder to learn as we get older. Thai is very hard to learn, and Naam made the excellent point that you need good hearing, which we begin to lose the subtleties of as we age past 25.

I have just one phrase I want to learn in Thai besides "Where's the bathroom, kap."

As a "farang," I want to learn how to say "Do you want me to break your scrawny little neck?"

[notmyself]

There are plenty of Brits living in Spain for example,who don't speak a word of Spanish!

and i think you might find that the majority on thi board who think it pointless, or claim they are unable to learn thai are brits as well.

Spanish and Italians are very poor with languages also,it's not just the Brits!

Some here are US, some German... Any new detailed skill gets harder to learn as we get older. Thai is very hard to learn, and Naam made the excellent point that you need good hearing, which we begin to lose the subtleties of as we age past 25.

I have just one phrase I want to learn in Thai besides "Where's the bathroom, kap."

As a "farang," I want to learn how to say "Do you want me to break your scrawny little neck?"

Some other useful phrases are:

Is this motorbike four stroke

and

May I pitch my tent in your garden.

[Neeranam]

Naam, on 24 Apr 2013 - 07:53, said:

Neeranam, on 23 Apr 2013 - 23:09, said:

Naam, on 23 Apr 2013 - 23:07, said:

Ratsima, on 23 Apr 2013 - 18:39, said:

It turns out I'm too stupid to learn Thai. After 16 years of trying and failing miserably I concluded that my time was better spent learning how to survive here without knowing the language.

you might not be too stupid but it could also be your age and your hearing capability. the ability of hearing and/or discerning high frequency sounds diminishes with every year after age 25. learning a tonal language when you have problems to differentiate between consonants when your wife sits only two meters from you and you mainly here the vowels of the word she speaks disqualifies you from learning Thai. period!

the afore mentioned is only one of the facts some ignorant and arrogant Farangs do not take into consideration when they present their ridiculous and heartbleeding claims how wonderful life has become, how their brain cells were protected from Alzheimer's, how they now understand Thai culture and how they are able to rip off any Thai who has nothing else in mind than ripping off a Farang... after they learned to communicate and participate in highly sophisticated conversations such as "whatcha cookin' for supper today?" or "hey neighbour, what be da weather morrow, rain or shine?"

now i am waiting patiently for more fairy tales such as how much less their dogs are salivating, their grass looks much greener, the chickens laying more and bigger eggs, the village headman awarded them with a decoration and that they are entitled to report every 89 instead of every 90 days with immigration.

So Naam, are you saying you can't learn or don't want to learn?

both applies Neeranam. i was always proud of my language skills although the pride was not really justified because i grew up bilingual which made it much easier for me to acquire additional languages. 8½ years ago, when we decided to settle in Thailand i hired a private teacher, picked up some basic Thai and started to built a home whilst still taking lessons.

the frustrating turning point surfaced when i realised that whatever little Thai i acquired was nearly useless in my function as "construction supervisor". i could neither communicate with the Burmese ladies who were laying the blocks, nor with the Lao, Khmer or whatever Buddha-forsaken dialects speaking other dozen subcontractors except when their boss or supervisor managed a passable English. so i hired a young construction engineer to act as my translator but it turned out that most of his translations were met with a blank stare instead of following his translated instructions. today i am not sure what part it was they did not understand and what part was "let the arrogant young boy wearing a white shirt and a tie talk, we do how we always did... he he he!"

having lived 15 years before (since i retired) like a hermit without any socialising my reaction was "<deleted>...! why wasting my time?" no plans to immerse myself in Thai culture, no intention to convert to Buddhism, a foreign wife and therefore no Thai family connections, no Thai neighbours without near fluency in English. around the same time i could not ignore my hearing problems anymore. not only watching TV became a pain in the àss but also having to ask my wife (who's mother tongue is English) to repeat a sentence twice or even more often. routing TV sound through an equaliser enhancing high frequencies helped for some time but today it's over and out and soon i have to spend 150-200k Baht for the latest sophisticated hearing aids.

day before yesterday i had two TV-members as guests in my home, we had a jolly good time laughing, bitching and emptying a bottle of good Port. but without my acquired lip reader capability it would have turned out not so funny.

Thanks for explaining, fair enough.

I have a friend who is similar - he can actually speak 7 languages fluently and worked all over the world as a US diplomat. He said being brought up bilingual helped learn other languages. He has a problem in one ear which makes hearing certain sounds impossible.

However I wonder if a big part of it is not having the NEED to learn. He worked in a high position in the US embassy so had English speaking staff. He told me that he learned Russian in 7 weeks, and he meant fluent Russian as was doing some spy kinda work. I was shocked when once, travelling in his car with his England-educated Thai wife, he asked me to tell the driver to turn left. Now come on, this looks like refusal to learn. He came here first in 1958 and has been here the last 40 years or so. I wonder if there some kind of ego thing going on or fear of looking 'less than'. I can't have my driver laughing at me - I am rich, I received the 5th level order of the white elephant from the royalty, etc Now obviously, my friend is highly intelligent, graduating from Harvard as well. Now, I on the other hand, failed my Higher French, got kicked out of uni(first time) yet I managed to learn Thai. I wanted to read Thai too and did so in 1 month. Bought a AUA book which meant sitting down in Lumpini park for 1/2 to 1 hour a day, doing one exercise. After the month I could read and write. Being Scottish helped - I didn't want to spend money sitting in a classroom! Motivation and willingness are the key factors in learning. My accent was a huge hinderance though.

My friend could have done the same in less time, I'm sure but he had no inclination. Maybe has to be perfect - if I can't speak then I ain't learning. Keep an open mind, it might be fun to learn to read. For me it was a challenge, like a cryptic crossword puzzle. I think anyone can learn to read. I learned to read Hindi but can't speak a word.

Edited April 24, 2013 by Neeranam

[belg]

just to what most immigrants in european countries are doing : not integrating and getting social welfare

well that last part is anyway non excisting in thailand and as a farang you would never get it anyway

so maybe, as we are only guests here, and at the mercy of immigration that could change the laws or just local rules, don't bother... if they kick you out, one day, or your wife, if she is tired of you, you have to pack, and what are you with your language skills than ? or maybe you want to try another good one

[notmyself]

so maybe, as we are only guests here, and at the mercy of immigration that could change the laws or just local rules, don't bother... if they kick you out, one day, or your wife, if she is tired of you, you have to pack, and what are you with your language skills than ? or maybe you want to try another good one

Poor argument because if you know you are going to die at some stage then what is the point of learning anything?

[Naam]

I have a friend who is similar - he can actually speak 7 languages
fluently and worked all over the world as a US diplomat. He said being
brought up bilingual helped learn other languages.

i am always quite skeptical when i hear claims like these especially when

the expression "fluent[ly]" is used. but i experienced in Saudi Arabia that

my 12 year old son taught our Ethiopian housekeeper within a few months

a passable German, fluent of course only in conversations pertaining and

limited to what was going on in the home, or explaining to her that i was not

an important big boss to call the American president and ask him to forbid

interrupting movies with advertisements

[PaullyW]

I speak decent Thai (read, write OK as well). Once you have the language patterns/grammar down, much is simply knowing vocabulary...

Anyway, I put in time to become OK (not fluent, perhaps) in Thai, but it was largely not worth it in my opinion.

Of a certain age (beyond my teens and early 20s), I am sufficiently comfortable in my being and sufficiently different and lack much in common with the average Thai. Most of the people who would have anything interesting to say to me speak --- English well enough to converse. So, Thai, for me, is largely a dead language. Of almost no value whatsoever. Biggest benefit is simply the cool factor and impressing women (who are easily impressed).

The news papers in Thai - waste.

The news in Thai - waste.

Literature in Thai - largely non-existent.

Save your time, folks. It's not worth it.

Learning Thai does not make much available to us.

[ABCer]

At a risk of being told off again I feel like butting into your lovely lively exchange.

The nearly 90% consensus is that Thai, being a tonal language with very different phonetics and strange looking alphabet is hard to learn to average European.

The strongest argument for learning in many variations was - you live here, so it is a must for understanding, respect, cultural enrichment etc.

I get the feeling that the strongest resentment against my first reply was the fact that I didn't see the incentive for such a hard effort as learning Thai.

With due respect for every opinion voiced here, let me explain my position.

Communication aspect. As mentioned before, most of Thais close to me speak English. My communication with people outside Thailand needs no Thai. Shopping usually is done with my wife (Thai) but if she is not present the seller is more motivated to understand me than visa-versa. Besides, money speaks all languages. No chance of being ripped off, - if I don't like the price - no sale. Buying apartment? - office ladies speak English. Buying a car? - dealer speaks English. Buying furniture, TV, clothing? - shop assistants speak English. Movies? - always English option. Opera? - any language but Thai (besides, if you know libretto, you don't need to know words, music and voices is what you are after). Ballet? - it's mute. Talking to neighbours? - they are all speaking English, Spanish, Swedish, Russian, French... and Thais (English speaking).

Cultural aspect. This is a sore point. And I will try to tread on one hand carefully, on the other hand forgive me for being both Frank and Earnest. There is no intention to offend anybody here. As I said before I do not consider my culture inferior to Thai culture. I happen to think that any national culture is measured by its contribution to world culture...

Than there is a Local Culture, Customs, etc. I assure you that I am always trying my best not to offend anybody. That is I Wai, smile and never point with my feet. Actually even before Thailand I found it very inconvenient to point with my feet (lol). In most places people use finger, hand, head or eyes. Smile in Thailand can have so many meanings - from 'yes' to 'no' with everything in between. Wai is like a smile. It can be a sign of respect. It can be hiding anything behind, from reverie to complete and utter disdain. One has to be born in the East to read it correctly... Did I miss anything? Oh, yes, don't touch a monk if you are a woman, don't pat a little boy on the head, don't go into a WAT in shorts or sleeveless. That's it!

Pardon me, but I think the more people talk Culture, the less there is to talk about. Now, could somebody explain to me where knowledge of Thai comes into above?

Religious aspect. I like Buddhism. I respect it more than other Religions. I am a very tolerant person when Religion is concerned. But I am not religious. And where is the link between Thai language and Buddhism teaching? If my information is correct Buddha was not Thai. Correct me if I'm wrong. Books on Buddhism are published in many languages. Do I really need Thai to read them?

[cup-O-coffee]

Learn the language and free yourself from the shackles of having other people decide what part of what you say be translated for others to hear and what part others say should be translated for you to hear.

There are a lot of good responses here that fairly cover all the reasons to support doing whatever makes one feel comfortable. I used your post since it was the first one. It is a good option. It is also, in my opinion, simply one of many to select from in order to meet the practical needs of the individual.

I choose not to learn it, and it suits me quite well so far. Isn't that what it is all about; being comfortable and happy with one's lot in life?

[Naam]

The strongest argument for learning in many variations was - you live
here, so it is a must for understanding, respect, cultural enrichment
etc.

-i don't need to master the language to respect my host country

and its people. to respect or not the environment in which you are

living depends on the basic characteristics a any human being.

-it is not a cultural enrichment being able to order food in local

lingo and neither is it a cultural enrichment to know the Thai word

for a screwdriver or a pair of pliers one wants to buy in a toolshop.

i respect your opinion if you don't throw at me some ridiculous

and arrogant "it is a must" but tell me instead "i think, in my view,

as far as i am concerned, in my specific case..."

[Naam]

Learn the language and free yourself from the shackles of having other people decide what part of what you say be translated for others to hear and what part others say should be translated for you to hear.

There are a lot of good responses here that fairly cover all the reasons to support doing whatever makes one feel comfortable. I used your post since it was the first one. It is a good option. It is also, in my opinion, simply one of many to select from in order to meet the practical needs of the individual.

I choose not to learn it, and it suits me quite well so far. Isn't that what it is all about; being comfortable and happy with one's lot in life?

how can you be happy without conforming with the views of many who participate in this discussion? don't you agree that they know better what suits you and makes you happy in your life?

[Naam]

At a risk of being told off again I feel like butting into your lovely lively exchange.

The nearly 90% consensus is that Thai, being a tonal language with very different phonetics and strange looking alphabet is hard to learn to average European.

The strongest argument for learning in many variations was - you live here, so it is a must for understanding, respect, cultural enrichment etc.

I get the feeling that the strongest resentment against my first reply was the fact that I didn't see the incentive for such a hard effort as learning Thai.

With due respect for every opinion voiced here, let me explain my position.

Communication aspect. As mentioned before, most of Thais close to me speak English. My communication with people outside Thailand needs no Thai. Shopping usually is done with my wife (Thai) but if she is not present the seller is more motivated to understand me than visa-versa. Besides, money speaks all languages. No chance of being ripped off, - if I don't like the price - no sale. Buying apartment? - office ladies speak English. Buying a car? - dealer speaks English. Buying furniture, TV, clothing? - shop assistants speak English. Movies? - always English option. Opera? - any language but Thai (besides, if you know libretto, you don't need to know words, music and voices is what you are after). Ballet? - it's mute. Talking to neighbours? - they are all speaking English, Spanish, Swedish, Russian, French... and Thais (English speaking).

Cultural aspect. This is a sore point. And I will try to tread on one hand carefully, on the other hand forgive me for being both Frank and Earnest. There is no intention to offend anybody here. As I said before I do not consider my culture inferior to Thai culture. I happen to think that any national culture is measured by its contribution to world culture...

Than there is a Local Culture, Customs, etc. I assure you that I am always trying my best not to offend anybody. That is I Wai, smile and never point with my feet. Actually even before Thailand I found it very inconvenient to point with my feet (lol). In most places people use finger, hand, head or eyes. Smile in Thailand can have so many meanings - from 'yes' to 'no' with everything in between. Wai is like a smile. It can be a sign of respect. It can be hiding anything behind, from reverie to complete and utter disdain. One has to be born in the East to read it correctly... Did I miss anything? Oh, yes, don't touch a monk if you are a woman, don't pat a little boy on the head, don't go into a WAT in shorts or sleeveless. That's it!

Pardon me, but I think the more people talk Culture, the less there is to talk about. Now, could somebody explain to me where knowledge of Thai comes into above?

Religious aspect. I like Buddhism. I respect it more than other Religions. I am a very tolerant person when Religion is concerned. But I am not religious. And where is the link between Thai language and Buddhism teaching? If my information is correct Buddha was not Thai. Correct me if I'm wrong. Books on Buddhism are published in many languages. Do I really need Thai to read them?

[SteeleJoe]

-it is not a cultural enrichment being able to order food in local

lingo and neither is it a cultural enrichment to know the Thai word

for a screwdriver or a pair of pliers one wants to buy in a toolshop.

i respect your opinion if you don't throw at me some ridiculous

and arrogant "it is a must" but tell me instead "i think, in my view,

as far as i am concerned, in my specific case..."

I've been consistent in my position that no one is obligated to learn the language nor should they feel they are. However, I'd respect your opinion a lot more (not that you would or should care) if you didn't work so hard to diminish, dismiss and disparage, well beyond any objective reasoning, any and all possible positives associated with knowing the language. I simply don't believe someone as worldy and intelligent as you apparently are honestly thinks as you claim to (that facility in a language allows nothing more significant than daily conveniences and trivia) or that you would be so ignorant of the links between language and culture or the potential benefits of an increased understanding of both (which is not to say that said benefits are or should be sufficient incentive to learn the language - too subjective an issue for me to argue about and fraught with all sorts of rhetorical pitfalls).

You protest way too much. (And it is quite something to see you of all posters complain about arrogance).

Edited April 24, 2013 by SteeleJoe

[JLCrab]

I'll agree with K. Naam on this one: Whether you order the food in Thai language yourself, point at a picture on the wall or at someone else's plate, or have your Thai companion order for you, the food is still the same.

[jinners]

Which Thai language will you learn?

Southern, Issan, Central or Lanna?

City or village or Hill-tribe?

Chances of your loved one or her family speaking Central Thai as a first language are practically zero.

Speaking some backwoods dialect will do you no good at all in any city or other area of the country.

You end up learning central Thai, and all her relatives chat away with each other in another dialect that you still can't speak or understand.

So that should then preclude people learning English? If I go to parts of the UK, I know other native speakers have trouble with accents like the following; Irish/Scottish/Geordie/Maccem/Scouse/Brum/Yorks (well Barnsley anyway) always a reason not to do something.

[transam]

Even English is sometimes worlds apart depending what side of the pond you are.

[dao16]

I never reply to these things, but something should be cleared up (some posters have, but here I go again): most Thais, like 99% of them can speak and understand standard Thai. Even the long neck ladies out in the boonies in the North can. I have been to all the regions and never once run into someone who just didn't speak Thai (unless they were actually immigrants from another country) and I have definitely been to out-of-the-way places in all the regions. Never learned any of the Northern or Southern dialects. Just spoke Thai to them.

As for staying longer, you can just use standard Thai and people will slowly point out the local variants to you. Of course, they can and will code switch, so you just have to get used to that. But if someone really wants to talk to you, they can easily just switch back to Thai.

I cannot imagine how it would be to live here without learning Thai. It changes the way people see you and interact with you. Several times, somewhere in the countryside, I have had the same experience: sit down for a coke or a beer. Order in Thai. The shopkeeper, who had been kind of apprehensive about my presence, suddenly would do a 180 and just be so happy to talk to us. Neighbors get called over. Then, invariably, after they finish freaking out about me speaking Thai, they start in about the Falang in the area, no matter where he is from, who has been there for 10-15 years or whatever and can't speak a word of Thai. It irks them. They don't say they hate the guy, but the resentment is clear.

But for me, beyond how others see me, it is just about enjoying being here. I can't imagine not being able to make small talk in a store, get things I want without a babysitter, etc. Granted, sometimes I turn out to be that babysitter for recent arrivals, but I don't mind. I just wouldn't want to do that here for years. Many of the negative reactions to foreigners just disappear when you can have basic conversations.

That leads to another point. A lot of posters are saying it is too difficult. Well, it all depends on what you want to do. It would probably take me several more years to ever even dream about taking a university class in Thai, but I don't want to. On the other hand, I can sit down with a beer/whiskey/meal and have a group conversation and get along understanding most of what it said and I can even contribute to the conversation. Most conversations here are not about rocket science--they are about people and things happening now.

Of course, it is difficult at the beginning, but, having learned other Asian languages, I remember starting out and mispronouncing words so badly that people couldn't understand me. Now, I can't even remember how I mispronounced them. It's a matter of time, practice and persistence.

Learn what you need to learn to enjoy living here more.

[PaullyW]

I never reply to these things, but something should be cleared up (some posters have, but here I go again): most Thais, like 99% of them can speak and understand standard Thai. Even the long neck ladies out in the boonies in the North can. I have been to all the regions and never once run into someone who just didn't speak Thai (unless they were actually immigrants from another country) and I have definitely been to out-of-the-way places in all the regions. Never learned any of the Northern or Southern dialects. Just spoke Thai to them.

As for staying longer, you can just use standard Thai and people will slowly point out the local variants to you. Of course, they can and will code switch, so you just have to get used to that. But if someone really wants to talk to you, they can easily just switch back to Thai.

I cannot imagine how it would be to live here without learning Thai. It changes the way people see you and interact with you. Several times, somewhere in the countryside, I have had the same experience: sit down for a coke or a beer. Order in Thai. The shopkeeper, who had been kind of apprehensive about my presence, suddenly would do a 180 and just be so happy to talk to us. Neighbors get called over. Then, invariably, after they finish freaking out about me speaking Thai, they start in about the Falang in the area, no matter where he is from, who has been there for 10-15 years or whatever and can't speak a word of Thai. It irks them. They don't say they hate the guy, but the resentment is clear.

But for me, beyond how others see me, it is just about enjoying being here. I can't imagine not being able to make small talk in a store, get things I want without a babysitter, etc. Granted, sometimes I turn out to be that babysitter for recent arrivals, but I don't mind. I just wouldn't want to do that here for years. Many of the negative reactions to foreigners just disappear when you can have basic conversations.

That leads to another point. A lot of posters are saying it is too difficult. Well, it all depends on what you want to do. It would probably take me several more years to ever even dream about taking a university class in Thai, but I don't want to. On the other hand, I can sit down with a beer/whiskey/meal and have a group conversation and get along understanding most of what it said and I can even contribute to the conversation. Most conversations here are not about rocket science--they are about people and things happening now.

Of course, it is difficult at the beginning, but, having learned other Asian languages, I remember starting out and mispronouncing words so badly that people couldn't understand me. Now, I can't even remember how I mispronounced them. It's a matter of time, practice and persistence.

Learn what you need to learn to enjoy living here more.

Good post. That is one side of things.

The other side might be me. I don't get any enjoyment at all from making small talk to people (in any language). The world is bleak. Life is largely arbitrary and short. There is no god or afterlife. People, for the most part, care only about themselves and will not think much of you when you are no longer here.

So, against that backdrop, I really don't want any small talk. I like to have 'more meaningful' (what is meaningful to me) conversations with people. However, even in Western countries, among rather educated populace, most people don't want to have deeper conversations. It's more comfortable to just gossip or to find other ways of creating likeness and forming and nurturing human bonds. Nothing wrong with that. I just don't really need much of it. When I want that feeling of connectedness, I can just do as I'm sure many do and find a young thing to spend some short time with.

Thailand is a place that is particularly hard to find a deeper conversation. You will not find many Thais who wish to discuss (in Thai or English and with Thais or non-Thais) any serious issues such as cultural, economy, politics, violence, religion. Even the most elite are mostly interested in talking about the 'new' Som Tam place and other, innocent current events. That's also beautiful in itself -- to be so simple, but some of us just don't enjoy that I'm gathering. I don't. I can have similar conversations with young children...

EDIT

And, I'm fine just like this. And, would have been just fine if I'd not learned.

But I wasn't complete honest in my earlier post, or, rather just forgot to mention something. One of the things that does make being able to read Thai useful is being able to read (for the most part) food-related stuff that is not apparent from simply looking at a dish/item. Of course, the labels often don't mention half the stuff in the food anyway!

Edited April 24, 2013 by PaullyW

[KhunBENQ]

dao16: great post!

[GuestHouse]

And learn to speak the right Thai.

The wrong Thai can slam doors in your face.

I should clarify. While Central Thai will undoubtedly benefit anyone working in the professions here in Thailand the essential issue is not the regional Thai/Dialect that a foreigner learns to speak, rather the language set s/he learns within that particular regional dialect.

To put it bluntly, don't learn bar speak and if you do, leave it in the bar.

Advice that is too late for some I know.

[dao16]

I never reply to these things, but something should be cleared up (some posters have, but here I go again): most Thais, like 99% of them can speak and understand standard Thai. Even the long neck ladies out in the boonies in the North can. I have been to all the regions and never once run into someone who just didn't speak Thai (unless they were actually immigrants from another country) and I have definitely been to out-of-the-way places in all the regions. Never learned any of the Northern or Southern dialects. Just spoke Thai to them.

As for staying longer, you can just use standard Thai and people will slowly point out the local variants to you. Of course, they can and will code switch, so you just have to get used to that. But if someone really wants to talk to you, they can easily just switch back to Thai.

I cannot imagine how it would be to live here without learning Thai. It changes the way people see you and interact with you. Several times, somewhere in the countryside, I have had the same experience: sit down for a coke or a beer. Order in Thai. The shopkeeper, who had been kind of apprehensive about my presence, suddenly would do a 180 and just be so happy to talk to us. Neighbors get called over. Then, invariably, after they finish freaking out about me speaking Thai, they start in about the Falang in the area, no matter where he is from, who has been there for 10-15 years or whatever and can't speak a word of Thai. It irks them. They don't say they hate the guy, but the resentment is clear.

But for me, beyond how others see me, it is just about enjoying being here. I can't imagine not being able to make small talk in a store, get things I want without a babysitter, etc. Granted, sometimes I turn out to be that babysitter for recent arrivals, but I don't mind. I just wouldn't want to do that here for years. Many of the negative reactions to foreigners just disappear when you can have basic conversations.

That leads to another point. A lot of posters are saying it is too difficult. Well, it all depends on what you want to do. It would probably take me several more years to ever even dream about taking a university class in Thai, but I don't want to. On the other hand, I can sit down with a beer/whiskey/meal and have a group conversation and get along understanding most of what it said and I can even contribute to the conversation. Most conversations here are not about rocket science--they are about people and things happening now.

Of course, it is difficult at the beginning, but, having learned other Asian languages, I remember starting out and mispronouncing words so badly that people couldn't understand me. Now, I can't even remember how I mispronounced them. It's a matter of time, practice and persistence.

Learn what you need to learn to enjoy living here more.

Good post. That is one side of things.

The other side might be me. I don't get any enjoyment at all from making small talk to people (in any language). The world is bleak. Life is largely arbitrary and short. There is no god or afterlife. People, for the most part, care only about themselves and will not think much of you when you are no longer here.

So, against that backdrop, I really don't want any small talk. I like to have 'more meaningful' (what is meaningful to me) conversations with people. However, even in Western countries, among rather educated populace, most people don't want to have deeper conversations. It's more comfortable to just gossip or to find other ways of creating likeness and forming and nurturing human bonds. Nothing wrong with that. I just don't really need much of it. When I want that feeling of connectedness, I can just do as I'm sure many do and find a young thing to spend some short time with.

Thailand is a place that is particularly hard to find a deeper conversation. You will not find many Thais who wish to discuss (in Thai or English and with Thais or non-Thais) any serious issues such as cultural, economy, politics, violence, religion. Even the most elite are mostly interested in talking about the 'new' Som Tam place and other, innocent current events. That's also beautiful in itself -- to be so simple, but some of us just don't enjoy that I'm gathering. I don't. I can have similar conversations with young children...

Yeah, I totally agree with that and I understand why you wouldn't be motivated...it depresses me sometimes. Of all the conversations I have had here, most are about the most trivial things. There are two guys I know who can and do engage in more interesting conversations, but they are definitely the exceptions. The they kind of outed themselves by bringing up world affairs (wife's uncle) and Mongolian history (random government official in my apt block) and it was fun to try out new words and sentences. But yeah, the remainder of the time, it is all trivial. I just like being able to shoot the proverbial shizen with the people down at the shop or wherever, even if for just a few minutes.

[Berkshire]

i respect your opinion if you don't throw at me some ridiculous

and arrogant "it is a must" but tell me instead "i think, in my view,

as far as i am concerned, in my specific case..."

I've been consistent in my position that no one is obligated to learn the language nor should they feel they are. However, I'd respect your opinion a lot more (not that you would or should care) if you didn't work so hard to diminish, dismiss and disparage, well beyond any objective reasoning, any and all possible positives associated with knowing the language.

Good points. This thread reminds me of the money threads, where people argue that they're perfectly happy living on 50K bt a month. While this may be true, it should also mean that they'd be even happier with 100K. Logic would dictate. And if they had an opportunity to make that extra 50K with some effort, would they do it? Well it depends on their individual situations, of course, cost/benefit and all that. Learning the Thai language is similar. It may be a huge advantage, or a minor advantage. But make no mistake, it's ALWAYS an advantage...as logic would dictate.

Now I understand Mr. Naam's point. He's relatively well-off, living in a tourist area, and married to a farang/non-Thai (if I recall). Add to that certain physical disabilities and his age and it's clear that the effort required would not translate to a reasonable benefit. I understand that. However, to suggest to others who are NOT in his situation that it's a waste of time is rather misleading and disingenuous. I don't think there are many others who are in Mr. Naam's circumstance, but if you're wealthy, living in Phuket, and not the least interested in Thai women, then perhaps, learning the language may not offer you a huge advantage.

I can think of many, many advantages to learning Thai, but let me just offer one. If you're seeking a relationship with a Thai woman, it's a huge advantage. I myself prefer to date Thai women who cannot speak English. I can explain at length why, but let's just say that I find many Thai women in Thailand who speak English to do so sort of...shall we say, out of occupational necessity. Not all, but many. I just don't need the baggage. You can cut through the BS and actually have a meaningful relationship with a huge, huge number of "normal" Thai women simply by being able to communicate in her language. Just one example.

[SteeleJoe]

I never reply to these things, but something should be cleared up (some posters have, but here I go again): most Thais, like 99% of them can speak and understand standard Thai. Even the long neck ladies out in the boonies in the North can. I have been to all the regions and never once run into someone who just didn't speak Thai (unless they were actually immigrants from another country) and I have definitely been to out-of-the-way places in all the regions. Never learned any of the Northern or Southern dialects. Just spoke Thai to them.

As for staying longer, you can just use standard Thai and people will slowly point out the local variants to you. Of course, they can and will code switch, so you just have to get used to that. But if someone really wants to talk to you, they can easily just switch back to Thai.

I cannot imagine how it would be to live here without learning Thai. It changes the way people see you and interact with you. Several times, somewhere in the countryside, I have had the same experience: sit down for a coke or a beer. Order in Thai. The shopkeeper, who had been kind of apprehensive about my presence, suddenly would do a 180 and just be so happy to talk to us. Neighbors get called over. Then, invariably, after they finish freaking out about me speaking Thai, they start in about the Falang in the area, no matter where he is from, who has been there for 10-15 years or whatever and can't speak a word of Thai. It irks them. They don't say they hate the guy, but the resentment is clear.

But for me, beyond how others see me, it is just about enjoying being here. I can't imagine not being able to make small talk in a store, get things I want without a babysitter, etc. Granted, sometimes I turn out to be that babysitter for recent arrivals, but I don't mind. I just wouldn't want to do that here for years. Many of the negative reactions to foreigners just disappear when you can have basic conversations.

That leads to another point. A lot of posters are saying it is too difficult. Well, it all depends on what you want to do. It would probably take me several more years to ever even dream about taking a university class in Thai, but I don't want to. On the other hand, I can sit down with a beer/whiskey/meal and have a group conversation and get along understanding most of what it said and I can even contribute to the conversation. Most conversations here are not about rocket science--they are about people and things happening now.

Of course, it is difficult at the beginning, but, having learned other Asian languages, I remember starting out and mispronouncing words so badly that people couldn't understand me. Now, I can't even remember how I mispronounced them. It's a matter of time, practice and persistence.

Learn what you need to learn to enjoy living here more.

Good post. That is one side of things.

The other side might be me. I don't get any enjoyment at all from making small talk to people (in any language). The world is bleak. Life is largely arbitrary and short. There is no god or afterlife. People, for the most part, care only about themselves and will not think much of you when you are no longer here.

So, against that backdrop, I really don't want any small talk. I like to have 'more meaningful' (what is meaningful to me) conversations with people. However, even in Western countries, among rather educated populace, most people don't want to have deeper conversations. It's more comfortable to just gossip or to find other ways of creating likeness and forming and nurturing human bonds. Nothing wrong with that. I just don't really need much of it. When I want that feeling of connectedness, I can just do as I'm sure many do and find a young thing to spend some short time with.

Thailand is a place that is particularly hard to find a deeper conversation. You will not find many Thais who wish to discuss (in Thai or English and with Thais or non-Thais) any serious issues such as cultural, economy, politics, violence, religion. Even the most elite are mostly interested in talking about the 'new' Som Tam place and other, innocent current events. That's also beautiful in itself -- to be so simple, but some of us just don't enjoy that I'm gathering. I don't. I can have similar conversations with young children...

Yeah, I totally agree with that and I understand why you wouldn't be motivated...it depresses me sometimes. Of all the conversations I have had here, most are about the most trivial things. There are two guys I know who can and do engage in more interesting conversations, but they are definitely the exceptions. The they kind of outed themselves by bringing up world affairs (wife's uncle) and Mongolian history (random government official in my apt block) and it was fun to try out new words and sentences. But yeah, the remainder of the time, it is all trivial. I just like being able to shoot the proverbial shizen with the people down at the shop or wherever, even if for just a few minutes.

I agree with both of you about meaningful conversations being in the minority - I think that's indisputable - however, I have had countless deep and interesting conversations over the years that I never would or could have had without being able to speak Thai (far) better than the person whom I was speaking to could speak English.

And, in the aggregate, one can learn a lot from seemingly trivial interactions as well.

[Joe Mamma]

A part of any radical move to a new country and language and culture and all the other elements of weather, diet, sports,etc.

Makes a person have to LET GO. Letting go of anything is hard, letting go of everything is difficult beyond.

Much as a person gets over a love affair, we have to let go of the past and adapt, overcome,re-connect.

Building new brain neural paths that rewire so different is akin to being lost and a transitional zone forms.

Learn as much as you can, but slowly. Understand 50% more than you speak and don't let on your depth of intelligence or fluency.

It helps to mimic the dumb blonde that everyone thinks is so naive, but she is a wise manipulative hawk waiting to swoop on the underestimators.

[horsewell]

Learning the language is a double edged sword. It opens doors and closes them. If you learn impolite language it could certainly have a negative affect on your reputation, if you care. However, knowing polite Thai can be good as you can certainly understand more of what others say. Probably have better relationships with friends and family. Other people, however, will could take a very negative idea and may go to the extreme as belittling you and telling you they don't understand one word... etc... ad infinitum (I get it a lot). If you know Thai language. You have to learn to play dumb too. Have to know when to use it or when to try and muddle through the way you used to before you knew.

I personally have found it a great investment in time and I've had a lot of fun.

All children in Thailand that go to school learn central Thai language and basic English. If you talk to someone who is in their 30s they will know how to speak Bangkok Thai unless you go somewhere where they don't even have Television. University study usually involves mandatory English courses as well.

[SteeleJoe]

I can think of many, many advantages to learning Thai, but let me just offer one. If you're seeking a relationship with a Thai woman, it's a huge advantage. I myself prefer to date Thai women who cannot speak English. I can explain at length why, but let's just say that I find many Thai women in Thailand who speak English to do so sort of...shall we say, out of occupational necessity. Not all, but many. I just don't need the baggage. You can cut through the BS and actually have a meaningful relationship with a huge, huge number of "normal" Thai women simply by being able to communicate in her language. Just one example.

I am convinced with the that even someone in Mr. Naam's position could benefit in a number of significant ways but I won't try and sell that or even suggest that it would necessarily be worth it given his apparent priorities and views and I certainly think you make sound points regarding why it would be seemingly less vital for him.

As for the one advantage you mentioned (while rightly acknowledging that there are many), it is a bit amusing that my first thought was how that never a motivating factor for me - though when I was single I got laid a LOT more than I would have without language skills (but as I used to tell my friends who complained of an unfair advantage, you still have to know the right things to say - a knob speaking Thai is still a Knob) - and not one I would think of as important: and yet for 20 years I have been with one of the most extraordinary people I've ever known who is the mother of my two children that I love more than life itself...and I never would have known how special she was OR ever won her heart, without speaking Thai.

So..spot on.

EDIT: I should have made it even stronger - fact is I almost certainly never would even have MET Mrs SteeleJoe without being able to speak Thai, let alone have a conversation with her.

Edited April 24, 2013 by SteeleJoe