Need Some Help

[FrisoPee]

Hi all,

Someone has contacted me with the following problem. She's a mother of a daughter who stays in Thailand at the moment. When she rented an ATV in Koh Tao she had an accident. She collided with a car sending her to hospital with a bad leg. The car is damaged around the headlight, the ATV is damaged as you can see on the attached picture. Talking with the owner and the tourist police, they demand 100.000 to 150.000 baht before they will return her passport back to her (this was her deposit)

What do you think? Is amount of money abnormal? What can she do? Tourist police is not helping and also demanding cash. For both the ATV and the car. Unfortunately I don't have pics of the car, but as we found out due to the insurance of the company there is no responsibilty to 3th party vehicles, is this right? The ATV is an VIPER ST.150.

If any of you know what she should pay, and how she should handle this situation this is greatly appreciated. I am not familliar with ATV's but I know that there must be a way to get the price down (paying is eminent at this point and mother already has given up on that point)

[yourauntbob]

In most cases they make you sign a paper that specifies all damages. I had a small accident once on Ko Tao on a motor bike and ended up paying close to the value of the bike for some scratches etc. they are probably not trying to just recover the damage but make some money off it as well, many shops live off this. i really dont know how much ATVs cost, but if she offered to replace the ATV with a bit of extra cash they may go for it. with a sum in that amount it may not be a bad idea to get a lawyer involved. just my 2 cents

[Rogue33]

IMO, she should contact a lawyer that can talk with the owner/police and negotiate a reasonable compensation. A good lawyer probably has experience with that kind of situation and will know how to handle it.

Seem like they are trying to make some money with her.

[Eesat]

150,000 Baht is USD $5,228.63 according to xe.com,that is a total ripoff and I doubt if they even cost that much brand new!

It's the same scam as the jetski scam,the side of it looks pretty smashed up but it looks like it's on a subframe anyway.The shock absorber looks bent which means it needs replacing but they'll either hammer the subframe straight and replace the shock absorber or replace the whole subframe and shock absorber.
Absolute tops you should be looking at is USD $2-300,they are trying to charge you at least 20 times the damage sustained and it sounds like the Tourist Police are all in on it and expecting a backhander too,just shameful behaviour as usual!

My advice would be if possible just head straight for the British Embassy in Bangkok for a replacement passport but it's unlikely you'll be able to do that as they'll be watching your every move!Your best bet as they have your daughter's passport is as everyone says to get a lawyer to negotiate the price down as far as possible and cut your losses,unfortunately TiT (This is Thailand)!

[Crossy]

The bike chaps may have better ideas on repair costs, let's try this there.

[DiNiro]

Consult a farang lawyer.

Otherwise you may experience the Thai zig-zag process between the police, lawyer and ATV rental guy.

Tony at Magna Carta will give you honest advice.

[Shurup]

a bike new is probably in the range of $1500 US but the car damage can be real expensive if there's no insurance. If it's a cracked bumper, it'll need to be replaced, if there's a dent on a body, it'll need to be straightened and a large area may need to be repainted (depending on where the damage is) so the total could easily be $3000 (depending on a car damage and a car make) or more.

If it was my car, I'd settle for no less than the pre-accident condition and I'd also want it done at the professional shop.

ATV - they might even have the insurance on it but they're not telling, trying to make some money out of it and then get the insurance to fix or replace it.

All in all it COULD be as much as they're asking, need to know what the car was and see the damage.

[Richard-BKK]

The first thing is it all depends on what your daughter signed for contract, but knowing what sort of contracts they let people sign means that she is responsible for all the damage to the vehicle and loss of income (not able to rent out the vehicle to anybody else due to repairs or waiting for parts). Most people think that the contract only covers the damage to the vehicle and therefore see the repair cost as very high....

If she signed a contract and police was at the scene its best to just pay, if not you're likely paying more in the end... they will send the ATV to the nearest dealer, the dealer doesn't have the parts and has to order that in China or Japan and it's not uncommon that parts for older versions of ATVs take sometimes 30 to 60 days to arrive in Thailand...

Edited April 23, 2013 by Richard-BKK

[HeijoshinCool]

You did not state who was at fault.

Anyway, in many countries, civil law is often based around what a "reasonable man" would do. Here it is based on "how much can we get from this stupid farang, if we hold their passport?" Based on the limited information in your post, it sounds as if they are taking her for a ride, sort of like the jet-ski scams.

I knew of someone in a similar situation in the past. Maybe a few thousand in damage, they demanded 90,000. Finally threatened to put him in jail. He finally went to his embassy, reported his passport stolen, and went home a few days later.

[Richard-BKK]

You did not state who was at fault.

Anyway, in many countries, civil law is often based around what a "reasonable man" would do. Here it is based on "how much can we get from this stupid farang, if we hold their passport?" Based on the limited information in your post, it sounds as if they are taking her for a ride, sort of like the jet-ski scams.

I knew of someone in a similar situation in the past. Maybe a few thousand in damage, they demanded 90,000. Finally threatened to put him in jail. He finally went to his embassy, reported his passport stolen, and went home a few days later.

The question of who was wrong is irrelevant, because she was riding an ATV on the public road. An ATV (all terrain vertical) is in Thailand not a street legal vehicle and is therefore not allowed on the public road. While I doubt that the police will pursuit her for riding and unregistered and uninsured vehicle on the public road, she must be lucky that she did not killed a child or made somebody cripple. Otherwise she would probably not leave Thailand anytime soon.....

Edited April 23, 2013 by Richard-BKK

[cornishcarlos]

You did not state who was at fault.

Anyway, in many countries, civil law is often based around what a "reasonable man" would do. Here it is based on "how much can we get from this stupid farang, if we hold their passport?" Based on the limited information in your post, it sounds as if they are taking her for a ride, sort of like the jet-ski scams.

I knew of someone in a similar situation in the past. Maybe a few thousand in damage, they demanded 90,000. Finally threatened to put him in jail. He finally went to his embassy, reported his passport stolen, and went home a few days later.

The question of who was wrong is irrelevant, because she was riding an ATV on the public road. An ATV (all terrain vertical) is in Thailand not a street legal vehicle and is therefore not allowed on the public road. While I doubt that the police will pursuit her for riding and unregistered and uninsured vehicle on the public road, she must be lucky that she did not killed a child or made somebody cripple. Otherwise she would probably not leave Thailand anytime soon.....

Maybe she wasn't on a public road ???

Not sure why people are still handing over their passports as deposits, this situation happens too much here...

Give them a copy or rent somewhere else..

[Richard-BKK]

You did not state who was at fault.

Anyway, in many countries, civil law is often based around what a "reasonable man" would do. Here it is based on "how much can we get from this stupid farang, if we hold their passport?" Based on the limited information in your post, it sounds as if they are taking her for a ride, sort of like the jet-ski scams.

I knew of someone in a similar situation in the past. Maybe a few thousand in damage, they demanded 90,000. Finally threatened to put him in jail. He finally went to his embassy, reported his passport stolen, and went home a few days later.

The question of who was wrong is irrelevant, because she was riding an ATV on the public road. An ATV (all terrain vertical) is in Thailand not a street legal vehicle and is therefore not allowed on the public road. While I doubt that the police will pursuit her for riding and unregistered and uninsured vehicle on the public road, she must be lucky that she did not killed a child or made somebody cripple. Otherwise she would probably not leave Thailand anytime soon.....

Maybe she wasn't on a public road ???

Not sure why people are still handing over their passports as deposits, this situation happens too much here...

Give them a copy or rent somewhere else..

Even not on a public road, it's very unlikely that she was on her own land. If she was in a public park, on the beach, sidewalk, bicycle lane, she was very likely riding on a public accessible area... Which is equal to public road she should not have been there in the first place.

[lemoncake]

Perhaps a long shot, but might be worth looking into.

FInd out the price of a new one, same brand.

MIght be cheaper to buy a new one and give them that.

100 000 baht is a lot of damage, i mean a lot.

Yes the time lost is a factor, however right now its a low season. so customers are not exactly queuing up.

Also, depends how much money and time you willing to invest. If you happy to get a lawyer , i would estimate it would cost you around 10 000 baht.

Offer what you think the damage is worth and give them an option, either to accept the offer(reasonable) or go to court.

That means, they will not be able to rent or fix it, they would also need to get a lawyer so more hassles for everyone.

And final, most important fact, not sure why no one has mentioned. Passport is a property of a country, they can not legally hold it, only police can. And police only can if person has been charged or detained.

Contact the embassy and they will advise on how to proceed to recover the passport.

[wantan]

The OP wrote:

"Talking with the owner and the tourist police, they demand 100.000 to 150.000 baht before they will return her passport back to her (this was her deposit)"

Why 100-150k? The first thing would be to get a fixed price. Or it will end up at 160k

A new Viper ST 150 maybe is 120k. But looking at the picture it looks old, so maybe its 60-80k to pay if completely destroyed. Then there is the damage at the car. Maybe another 20-40k, dont know of course. So its easy to come to 100k with some days for not being able to rent it out to customers.

Sure they will more likely want to get more money than less. Same everywhere in the world. Best is not to rent such things or not to crash with them

[FrisoPee]

Thanks all! Things aren't over yet, but to give more info about what happend:

She rented this ATV at Koh Tao which had a faulty steering wheel. It had a strong handicap (dont know if this is correct english) to the right, which means she always had to steer to the left to be able to drive the ATV straight. She was on a public road when she couldn't prevent hitting an oncoming car (due to the faulty wheel)

The police is not helping at all. This mother lives in The Netherlands and is trying to get in touch with the owner and police, this has become difficult due to the fact that no one picks up the phone or does not do what they agreed to. This makes it harder. Her daughter is in a hospital in Samui and her 2 friends are with her.. They are the only one's how can go back to Koh Tao to pay the money. I advised to bring a tourist police officer at all time to keep things from going very bad... I know they are not trustworthy but at least they won't let things get out of control ( I hope )

Another problem is that she is due to fly back this sunday which means they only have a few days to solve this matter.. I told her that likely the owner of the ATV is playing the game till there is no other way out for her daughter to pay the money (since she needs her passport to go back) I also told her that she should be very carefull overstaying and that it's a good idea to contact the Dutch Embassy in Bangkok.

She signed a contract which stated she is responsible for all damage. Also, they attached a file that gave insight in what each individual part might cost (if broken) She hasn't told me if this really summed up to 100 k but of course these prices could be way higher than normal.. In my opinion: when signing the contract she agreed with her responsibilities and the costs that could be involved damaging the ATV.. My question: is this contract 100% legit? (law-wise) If so.. I guess bringing in a dozen lawyers will not solve the fact that she herself signed that contract... To make myself clear: i'm talking about the contract she signed when she rented the ATV.

Thanks again!

[Richard-BKK]

Yes, contracts like you describe are legal, actual they are very correct. Contracts without so-called price for repairs specifications are often dismissed in court, but in this case she signed and knew what an accident would cost.

The faulty steering of the ATV is probably hard to impossible to prove, also because the ATV being an illegal vehicle (not street legal) you can not expect much co-operation from the police. Basically, the rider of the ATV should be thankful to the police that she was not charge with riding an illegal vehicle, reckless driving, etc.. etc.. (sure nothing to serious... )

There could be a reason why they not answer phone calls from the mother, it's the start of the raining season and not much tourists. Also it's likely that the rider of the ATV has indicated that she is not willing to pay the money they want... therefore they probably are now preferring to go to court, with rental companies like you should assume that they're two or tree steps ahead of you... For them it's very likely not the first time they danced to this music...

In case they go to court, it's very likely that the ATV will “make” money for them a few months while it's the raining season and not much tourists are around...

[Richard-BKK]

Additional, the signed contract with price for repair specifications made all other discussions about what is fair repair cost or what is actual repair cost irrelevant.

I'm sure that the repairs for the ATV are just a calculation from the prices for damage specified in the attached price list of the signed contract... and likely the variable cost is for the damage of the car she hit.

I looked at the metal pipes that where bend in the picture, and must say that the damage to the car can be more than most people expect... I guess she was traveling at 60 ~ 70km/h... and I assume that the car was not stationary...

[JoePai]

Just pay up and hope the girl has learnt (an expensive) lesson.

[HeijoshinCool]

You did not state who was at fault.

Anyway, in many countries, civil law is often based around what a "reasonable man" would do. Here it is based on "how much can we get from this stupid farang, if we hold their passport?" Based on the limited information in your post, it sounds as if they are taking her for a ride, sort of like the jet-ski scams.

I knew of someone in a similar situation in the past. Maybe a few thousand in damage, they demanded 90,000. Finally threatened to put him in jail. He finally went to his embassy, reported his passport stolen, and went home a few days later.

The question of who was wrong is irrelevant, because she was riding an ATV on the public road. An ATV (all terrain vertical) is in Thailand not a street legal vehicle and is therefore not allowed on the public road. While I doubt that the police will pursuit her for riding and unregistered and uninsured vehicle on the public road, she must be lucky that she did not killed a child or made somebody cripple. Otherwise she would probably not leave Thailand anytime soon.....

No, it's not irrelevant if the equipment was faulty and it contributed to the accident.

What is irrelevant is whether she signed a contract, what the contract said, or that the owner is losing money because the ATV is down, IF the amount being demanded is grossly excessive and they are holding her passport and refusing to communicate. That's extortion.

Screw 'em.

[FrisoPee]

I told her that having to pay is eminent and she accepts this. The only thing what worries her is the huge amount of money involved. If this is way to much she is indeed, as Heijoshin stated: A victim of extortion. I don't have any relation with these people but I would like to help them as best as I can and won't accept the fact that her leg is being pulled big time.

What can she do? Time is running out. I told her to get a laywer on Samui and try to get help from the Embassy asap. I think that's about all she can do now..

[robblok]

I told her that having to pay is eminent and she accepts this. The only thing what worries her is the huge amount of money involved. If this is way to much she is indeed, as Heijoshin stated: A victim of extortion. I don't have any relation with these people but I would like to help them as best as I can and won't accept the fact that her leg is being pulled big time.

What can she do? Time is running out. I told her to get a laywer on Samui and try to get help from the Embassy asap. I think that's about all she can do now..

I agree a lawyer might help in negotiating the price lower. Else pay up and yes she is extorted for sure but she rented it and signed it.. found out it had a steering problem and still went on with it.

Does her travel insurance cover anything ?

[FrisoPee]

I told her that having to pay is eminent and she accepts this. The only thing what worries her is the huge amount of money involved. If this is way to much she is indeed, as Heijoshin stated: A victim of extortion. I don't have any relation with these people but I would like to help them as best as I can and won't accept the fact that her leg is being pulled big time.

What can she do? Time is running out. I told her to get a laywer on Samui and try to get help from the Embassy asap. I think that's about all she can do now..

I agree a lawyer might help in negotiating the price lower. Else pay up and yes she is extorted for sure but she rented it and signed it.. found out it had a steering problem and still went on with it.

Does her travel insurance cover anything ?

Yes the thing is she signed for it, so I guess there is no way out of this. If lucky that laywer will get the price down. If not, she has to pay up. I am not sure about travel insurance but what I do know is that if you cause the accident yourself the insurance company will give you the big finger.

[wantan]

If she does not want to run away (could be dangerous from an island, maybe they are looking for her on the boat) and report her passport stolen, than the best would be to pay. Get a thai person you trust or a farang who speaks thai and try to talk with the people. Try to get a list what costs how much. Try to pay 100k instead of 150k. If the vehicle was faulty than she should have stopped and walk. She knew that the ATV had a problem. So she can not blame the rental guy for the accident. Getting lawyers involved may just raises the costs and may have zero positive effect. I doubt that the embassy will help much. This is daily business and they will not interfere with thai law and negotiations on prices for damages.

Its not that the renter was doing something illegal. There is a rental business, a contract, a customer and an accident. So talk about the costs for damage, try to lower them and pay them. Are all costs (e.g. the repair of the car) included in the 100k-150k?

[FrisoPee]

Everything is in that price range.. The car and the ATV and the days he's not able to rent it out. It sounds much but maybe after all it's pretty close to the truth.. I will offer her all your advise. As I conclude I guess negotiating to a max of 100k is her best option. She will run eventually because she is due to fly out this sunday. I warned her that some people will have an eye on her moves, so she needs to be very carefull..

[Richard-BKK]

You did not state who was at fault.

Anyway, in many countries, civil law is often based around what a "reasonable man" would do. Here it is based on "how much can we get from this stupid farang, if we hold their passport?" Based on the limited information in your post, it sounds as if they are taking her for a ride, sort of like the jet-ski scams.

I knew of someone in a similar situation in the past. Maybe a few thousand in damage, they demanded 90,000. Finally threatened to put him in jail. He finally went to his embassy, reported his passport stolen, and went home a few days later.

The question of who was wrong is irrelevant, because she was riding an ATV on the public road. An ATV (all terrain vertical) is in Thailand not a street legal vehicle and is therefore not allowed on the public road. While I doubt that the police will pursuit her for riding and unregistered and uninsured vehicle on the public road, she must be lucky that she did not killed a child or made somebody cripple. Otherwise she would probably not leave Thailand anytime soon.....

No, it's not irrelevant if the equipment was faulty and it contributed to the accident.

What is irrelevant is whether she signed a contract, what the contract said, or that the owner is losing money because the ATV is down, IF the amount being demanded is grossly excessive and they are holding her passport and refusing to communicate. That's extortion.

Screw 'em.

What I understand, the rider of the ATV had a conversation with the police and the rental company. If in that conversation, or in any conversation later was established that person who rented the ATV was not willing to pay the agreed compensation as specified in the contract she signed freely, both parties can refuse to negotiate an out-of-court settlement. So this is not extortion it's the law in any civilized country.

For example lets assume that this happened in the Netherlands, what would happened different. First the girl would be arrested and charge for several laws she broke. If she would not agree to compensate the other parties involved, they probably would go to civil court to get the money as agreed in the contract. If a case is presented to the court I'm not even sure if it would be fully legal or wise to talk to the opposite site...

[Richard-BKK]

Everything is in that price range.. The car and the ATV and the days he's not able to rent it out. It sounds much but maybe after all it's pretty close to the truth.. I will offer her all your advise. As I conclude I guess negotiating to a max of 100k is her best option. She will run eventually because she is due to fly out this sunday. I warned her that some people will have an eye on her moves, so she needs to be very carefull..

I can tell you that she will likely not fly this Sunday, even when she is able to leave the island, the Dutch embassy doesn't issue emergency travel documents that easy. The Dutch embassy now-a-day checks with local government it the passport is found or flagged, second they will need verify with the city administration of the town she lives in... Likely takes several days...

Second she has to visit the police in Bangkok to report her has passport lost, she needs this to leave the country as without a police report she will not receive a new immigration card (the paper card in your passport when you enter Thailand).

If she get got by the police trying to leave the country she loses all credit and likely will stay in jail until her case will come to court (which is often longer than everybody hopes).... And remember what I said before, it's likely not the first time the rental company has had this issue... so you should assume they know exactly what to do and what to expect...

Edited April 24, 2013 by Richard-BKK

[FrisoPee]

Everything is in that price range.. The car and the ATV and the days he's not able to rent it out. It sounds much but maybe after all it's pretty close to the truth.. I will offer her all your advise. As I conclude I guess negotiating to a max of 100k is her best option. She will run eventually because she is due to fly out this sunday. I warned her that some people will have an eye on her moves, so she needs to be very carefull..

I can tell you that she will likely not fly this Sunday, even when she is able to leave the island, the Dutch embassy doesn't issue emergency travel documents that easy. The Dutch embassy now-a-day checks with local government it the passport is found or flagged, second they will need verify with the city administration of the town she lives in... Likely takes several days...

Second she has to visit the police in Bangkok to report her has passport lost, she needs this to leave the country as without a police report she will not receive a new immigration card (the paper card in your passport when you enter Thailand).

If she get got by the police trying to leave the country she loses all credit and likely will stay in jail until her case will come to court (which is often longer than everybody hopes).... And remember what I said before, it's likely not the first time the rental company has had this issue... so you should assume they know exactly what to do and what to expect...

Thanks Richard, are you a fellow dutchman? Nice to meet you.

What I mean is that she will fly anyway, even if she has to pay the 150 k... She will not flee the country.

[taninthai]

Things like this happen everyday in Thailand ,I'm quite surprised the amount of people saying get a lawyer ,this is a small island we are talking about a lawyer is gonna cost more and he may be in on it for a cut of the money.

All you need is a local respected Thai to go with you be friendly ,apologetic and explain the situation ,tell them your at the end if your holiday and have very little money left ,I would offer 50 k and take it from there,they fix these things for real cheap money and 50k will be a nice windfall for them,as for the car well at the end if the day his insurance will cover his damage.

Edited April 24, 2013 by taninthai

[FrisoPee]

Things like this happen everyday in Thailand ,I'm quite surprised the amount of people saying get a lawyer ,this is a small island we are talking about a lawyer is gonna cost more and he may be in on it for a cut of the money.

All you need is a local respected Thai to go with you be friendly ,apologetic and explain the situation ,tell them your at the end if your holiday and have very little money left ,I would offer 50 k and take it from there,they fix these things for real cheap money and 50k will be a nice windfall for them,as for the car well at the end if the day his insurance will cover his damage.

Well, first of all: Where to get a respected Thai when you are on holiday. Second: I won't be so sure about the fact that 'insurance will cover his damage anyway' Thanks for your advise though!

[SamsonSW]

Don't bother leaving on Sunday if you want to dispute the damage claim, if you want to leave just pay in full.

You will probably be able to settle for 20-30% less of the current offer, especially if you make nice with the cops.

No way something like this should be allowed to get to court or involve lawyers, you'll be here for years.

My opinion if you really need to be home for work or something, just offer say 90% against a bluff that you'll stay and fight, but if necessary pay the whole thing and remember not to be so silly next time.