Seriously Fascinating Article About Gut Bacteria Link To Obesity

[robblok]

I don't really understand this whole thing at all.

Surely if one of the twins changed to the same diet either way then they would over time develop the same gut bacteria. ie eat high fat diet bad gut bacteria , eat healthy low fat lots of raw foods etc develop good gut bacteria.

The whole thing seems silly to me.

That is something i thought about too.

I mean they are twins so its not genetic, its purely diet based. So changing diet would help, but maybe without the "transplant of bacteria" it would take longer.

[Tolley]

I don't really understand this whole thing at all.

Surely if one of the twins changed to the same diet either way then they would over time develop the same gut bacteria. ie eat high fat diet bad gut bacteria , eat healthy low fat lots of raw foods etc develop good gut bacteria.

The whole thing seems silly to me.

That is something i thought about too.

I mean they are twins so its not genetic, its purely diet based. So changing diet would help, but maybe without the "transplant of bacteria" it would take longer.

Yes but the transplant would be useless if they didn't change their diet as well because over time the gut bacteria when then revert back to bad gut bacteria.

[robblok]

I don't really understand this whole thing at all.

Surely if one of the twins changed to the same diet either way then they would over time develop the same gut bacteria. ie eat high fat diet bad gut bacteria , eat healthy low fat lots of raw foods etc develop good gut bacteria.

The whole thing seems silly to me.

That is something i thought about too.

I mean they are twins so its not genetic, its purely diet based. So changing diet would help, but maybe without the "transplant of bacteria" it would take longer.

Yes but the transplant would be useless if they didn't change their diet as well because over time the gut bacteria when then revert back to bad gut bacteria.

That is something JT already mentioned that you also have to change diet.

Now then the only reason i see is that it takes time to build up the bacteria and the transplant or pill would be a shortcut.

Or maybe by constantly re introducing that pil (chronic) they don't have to change their diet as you keep adding new bacteria.

Might be a win win loose situation win for the makers of the pill win for the guy / girl who does not want to change loose for whoever is paying for it (government)

[Tolley]

I don't really understand this whole thing at all.

Surely if one of the twins changed to the same diet either way then they would over time develop the same gut bacteria. ie eat high fat diet bad gut bacteria , eat healthy low fat lots of raw foods etc develop good gut bacteria.

The whole thing seems silly to me.

That is something i thought about too.

I mean they are twins so its not genetic, its purely diet based. So changing diet would help, but maybe without the "transplant of bacteria" it would take longer.

Yes but the transplant would be useless if they didn't change their diet as well because over time the gut bacteria when then revert back to bad gut bacteria.

That is something JT already mentioned that you also have to change diet.

Now then the only reason i see is that it takes time to build up the bacteria and the transplant or pill would be a shortcut.

Or maybe by constantly re introducing that pil (chronic) they don't have to change their diet as you keep adding new bacteria.

Might be a win win loose situation win for the makers of the pill win for the guy / girl who does not want to change loose for whoever is paying for it (government)

People always looking for quick fixes.

Start taking the kefir or similar probiotic and eat well and over time the same result.

People looking for 'magic pills' will invariably end up being disappointed.

[robblok]

@Tolly

I am not sure, because if it was that easy of eating the right stuff why make a pill.

[partington]

I don't really understand it either, but found a slightly expanded summary that explains a bit more. It is possible that infection can rapidly change your gut bacteria population, without needing a long period of altering diet to change the population.

1. They fed bacteria free mice on either high fruit/veg or high fat diets.

2. When they infected these mice with bacteria from an obese human twin, the mice got fat. When they infected mice with the bacteria from the lean human twin, they didn't get fat.

3. If they put these mice in the same cage after infecting them separately with either the 'obese bacteria' or the' lean bacteria' they found that the 'lean bacteria' could infect and colonise the 'obese bacteria' treated mice, and transform their gut bacteria to the lean type, eliminating the 'obese bacteria'.

But the 'obese bacteria' could NOT infect and colonise the 'lean bacteria' treated mice. So putting the two types of mice together resulted in them all getting the lean type bacterial populations in their guts.

4. When they were put in the same cage with 'lean bacteria' infected mice, the mice that had been infected initially with 'obese bacteria' did not get fat any more, they were protected!

However protection only occurred in mice infected with 'obese bacteria' on the high veg and fruit diet. Mice on the high fat diet weren't protected from getting fat by infection with 'lean bacteria'.

So it seems like the lean type bacteria can eliminate the obese type of bacteria very quickly and efficiently, but the reverse doesn't happen. So if these populations of bacteria do arise from lifelong dietary habits, it seems you might be able to quickly change the obese type population to a lean type population with a quick pill or inoculation. If this treatment was coincident with a change to a healthy diet you would get the anti-obesity effect rapidly.

Excitingly, the bacteria DON'T seem to be only changing the amount of calories available from the food ingested, as I thought.

These bacteria may be producing compounds that actually regulate metabolism - the degree to which calories are absorbed or burnt, and not just changing the amount of available calories floating around! Amazing if true.

Here's the summary if anyone is interested: http://www.sciencemag.org/content/341/6150/1241214.abstract

[Jingthing]

I don't really understand this whole thing at all.

Surely if one of the twins changed to the same diet either way then they would over time develop the same gut bacteria. ie eat high fat diet bad gut bacteria , eat healthy low fat lots of raw foods etc develop good gut bacteria.

The whole thing seems silly to me.

That is something i thought about too.

I mean they are twins so its not genetic, its purely diet based. So changing diet would help, but maybe without the "transplant of bacteria" it would take longer.

Yes but the transplant would be useless if they didn't change their diet as well because over time the gut bacteria when then revert back to bad gut bacteria.

That is something JT already mentioned that you also have to change diet.

Now then the only reason i see is that it takes time to build up the bacteria and the transplant or pill would be a shortcut.

Or maybe by constantly re introducing that pil (chronic) they don't have to change their diet as you keep adding new bacteria.

Might be a win win loose situation win for the makers of the pill win for the guy / girl who does not want to change loose for whoever is paying for it (government)

People always looking for quick fixes.

Start taking the kefir or similar probiotic and eat well and over time the same result.

People looking for 'magic pills' will invariably end up being disappointed.

Is insulin for diabetics disappointing for them? This magic pill meme is loaded. Sometimes it seems as if some people don't value a solution for obesity that doesn't involve Saint-like suffering.

Sent from my Lenovo S820_ROW using Thaivisa Connect Thailand mobile app

[robblok]

I don't really understand it either, but found a slightly expanded summary that explains a bit more. It is possible that infection can rapidly change your gut bacteria population, without needing a long period of altering diet to change the population.

1. They fed bacteria free mice on either high fruit/veg or high fat diets.

2. When they infected these mice with bacteria from an obese human twin, the mice got fat. When they infected mice with the bacteria from the lean human twin, they didn't get fat.

3. If they put these mice in the same cage after infecting them separately with either the 'obese bacteria' or the' lean bacteria' they found that the 'lean bacteria' could infect and colonise the 'obese bacteria' treated mice, and transform their gut bacteria to the lean type, eliminating the 'obese bacteria'.

But the 'obese bacteria' could NOT infect and colonise the 'lean bacteria' treated mice. So putting the two types of mice together resulted in them all getting the lean type bacterial populations in their guts.

4. When they were put in the same cage with 'lean bacteria' infected mice, the mice that had been infected initially with 'obese bacteria' did not get fat any more, they were protected!

However protection only occurred in mice infected with 'obese bacteria' on the high veg and fruit diet. Mice on the high fat diet weren't protected from getting fat by infection with 'lean bacteria'.

So it seems like the lean type bacteria can eliminate the obese type of bacteria very quickly and efficiently, but the reverse doesn't happen. So if these populations of bacteria do arise from lifelong dietary habits, it seems you might be able to quickly change the obese type population to a lean type population with a quick pill or inoculation. If this treatment was coincident with a change to a healthy diet you would get the anti-obesity effect rapidly.

Excitingly, the bacteria DON'T seem to be only changing the amount of calories available from the food ingested, as I thought.

These bacteria may be producing compounds that actually regulate metabolism - the degree to which calories are absorbed or burnt, and not just changing the amount of available calories floating around! Amazing if true.

Here's the summary if anyone is interested: http://www.sciencemag.org/content/341/6150/1241214.abstract

Great for going into it and explaining it even more.

It would be great news (not so great for the pill makers as it seems it keeps itself in check once taken).

But a higher metabolic rate is great news that is really something that would help. The only thing is people will have to change their diet too. (i don't see that as bad as it will improve health) Not everyone will go for that.

But I can just imagine how fast weight loss would be for the committed, from a higher metabolism and healthier foods.

[Jingthing]

Not sure the diet changes will need to be very extreme. We'll see. It could be as basic as add fiber and lower fat, doable by most people.

Sent from my Lenovo S820_ROW using Thaivisa Connect Thailand mobile app

[Jingthing]

Wow. This gut bacteria research gets even more interesting!

http://www.newscientist.com/article/mg22129530.400-psychobiotics-how-gut-bacteria-mess-with-your-mind.html?full=true

In the 20th century, the major focus of microbiological research was on finding ways to kill microbes via antibiotics. This century the focus has changed somewhat, with a recognition of the health benefits of bacteria, not just from an immunity perspective but from a mental health one. Today, in richer nations, the impact of stress on health is perhaps as great as the threat from harmful bacteria. Psychobiotics have enormous potential.

[Jingthing]

There's more!

More focus on the impact of antibiotics in our meat supply and overused as medicine. But also about the complexity, importance, and linkage of gut bacteria to obesity. Worth reading the entire article. Only a snippet here.

I love the concept that our bodies are our "condo" that our gut bugs helped build, design, etc.

http://www.nytimes.com/2014/03/09/opinion/sunday/the-fat-drug.html?hp&rref=opinion&_r=0

Investigators are beginning to piece together a story about how gut bacteria shapes each life, beginning at birth, when infants are anointed with populations from their mothers’ microbiomes. Babies who are born by cesarean and never make that trip through the birth canal apparently never receive some key bugs from their mothers — possibly including those that help to maintain a healthy body weight. Children born by C-section are more likely to be obese in later life.

By the time we reach adulthood, we have developed our own distinct menagerie of bacteria. In fact, it doesn’t always make sense to speak of us and them. You are the condo that your bugs helped to build and design. The bugs redecorate you every day. They turn the thermostat up and down, and bang on your pipes.

In the Blaser lab and elsewhere, scientists are racing to take a census of the bugs in the human gut and — even more difficult — to figure out what effects they have on us. What if we could identify which species minimize the risk of diabetes, or confer protection against obesity? And what if we could figure out how to protect these crucial bacteria from antibiotics, or replace them after they’re killed off?

[WonnabeBiker]

Thanks for sharing, JT.

The body's bacteria weighs more than our brains. And most of them stick with us until we die.

There's a lot more to it and it's fascinating to observe the interation between body and mind. Take stress.

• it leads to neck pain, sleep problems etc.

Take a good relaxing massage and it's impact on our mind.

The companies of the future may very well offer all kinds of treatments and also "sleep rooms" at work.

[onlycw]

A diet experiment by the BBC (where a group had to eat only fruit and nuts) plus garlic and added fiber yielded amazing results. Which makes me opt for Psyllis husks to give the bacteria an extra workout. It sure helped some constipated truck drivers!

What about PRE-biotic substances? Are these known to be beneficial?

[Jingthing]

It turns out Farting is good! Who knew?

Got Gas? It Could Mean You've Got Healthy Gut Microbes

So all this got us wondering: Could passing gas, in some instances, be a sign that our gut microbes are busy keeping us healthy? Absolutely, says Purna Kashyap, a gastroenterologist at the Mayo Clinic in Rochester, Minn.

"Eating foods that cause gas is the only way for the microbes in the gut to get nutrients," he says. "If we didn't feed them carbohydrates, it would be harder for them to live in our gut."

http://www.npr.org/blogs/thesalt/2014/04/28/306544406/got-gas-it-could-mean-you-ve-got-healthy-gut-microbes

[Wrong Turn]

As for bacteria, probiotics in a cup of non-sugar yoghurt helps.

[Jingthing]

"Fecal transplants" to provide gut bacteria therapy to treat diseases works by pill now too.

That's somewhat surprising news.

So any potential future obesity treatments using this method won't need to involve expensive and invasive procedures.

But don't try this at home.

Other diseases of the gut like inflammatory bowel syndrome and Crohn's disease are next at bat. But theoretically, FMT could even be used to treat obesity.

http://www.washingtonpost.com/news/speaking-of-science/wp/2014/10/11/good-news-you-can-take-your-fecal-transplants-orally/

[h90]

"Fecal transplants" to provide gut bacteria therapy to treat diseases works by pill now too.

That's somewhat surprising news.

So any potential future obesity treatments using this method won't need to involve expensive and invasive procedures.

But don't try this at home.

Other diseases of the gut like inflammatory bowel syndrome and Crohn's disease are next at bat. But theoretically, FMT could even be used to treat obesity.

http://www.washingtonpost.com/news/speaking-of-science/wp/2014/10/11/good-news-you-can-take-your-fecal-transplants-orally/

I stopped reading at: "Fecal transplants just got easier to swallow." as I am afraid what comes later shocks me too much.....(both sides of application seem a bit difficult to me when you know about what you are doing)

But as being slim now with not too much affords, I can offer to send material for Fecal transplants within Thailand per regular post for a 100 Baht (small portion) or 150 Baht (big one) including postage, sent registered (we don't want to loose that sh.... valuable medication. EMS would cost extra.

TV member get a 10 % discount

[Jingthing]

Yes, the idea is gross. But think about it, it's in a tasteless pill. You just swallow like any other pill. To me, it sure beats Haggis.

Of course medical therapy for obesity with this is just a theory now but more than likely something like this will be eventually developed.

[h90]

Yes, the idea is gross. But think about it, it's in a tasteless pill. You just swallow like any other pill. To me, it sure beats Haggis.

Of course medical therapy for obesity with this is just a theory now but more than likely something like this will be eventually developed.

Well my sale is still on

[Jingthing]

Yes, the idea is gross. But think about it, it's in a tasteless pill. You just swallow like any other pill. To me, it sure beats Haggis.

Of course medical therapy for obesity with this is just a theory now but more than likely something like this will be eventually developed.

Well my sale is still on

I guess you weren't shittin' me about selling your poop!

Remember the famous old movie where career advice is suggested to the young man: PLASTICS!

Times are changing!

OK, you have to be under 50 though! No old poop, no sirree!

Are you under 50 years old, willing to make daily trips to Medford, and have regular bowel movements? You, my friend, could be earning $40 a day—just for pooping

http://www.boston.com/health/2014/10/15/poop-bank-massachusetts-will-pay-you-per-dump/FMMhBXMKyFNTRXKoThmnpM/story.html

[Kitsune]

Before wondering "why" (answer being the gut bacteria),it also stipulates that fast food and sugars cause inflammation and fruits while being sweet don't.

Eat fruits not fruit juices.

Eat veggies not Mac Donald

[Jingthing]

Dudes and dudesses, I think it's pretty clear now that therapy related to obesity using gut bacteria is COMING.

It's interesting that this article seems to focus on PREVENTION.

I sure hope that the gut bacteria therapy when it comes has a use for people who are CURRENTLY obese as well.

Of course, just helping already obese people not get MORE obese is better than nothing though.

A probiotic that prevents obesity could be on the horizon.

Bacteria that produce a therapeutic compound in the gut inhibit weight gain, insulin resistance and other adverse effects of a high-fat diet in mice, Vanderbilt University investigators have discovered.

http://news.vanderbilt.edu/2014/07/bacteria-prevent-obesity/

[h90]

Dudes and dudesses, I think it's pretty clear now that therapy related to obesity using gut bacteria is COMING.

It's interesting that this article seems to focus on PREVENTION.

I sure hope that the gut bacteria therapy when it comes has a use for people who are CURRENTLY obese as well.

Of course, just helping already obese people not get MORE obese is better than nothing though.

A probiotic that prevents obesity could be on the horizon.

Bacteria that produce a therapeutic compound in the gut inhibit weight gain, insulin resistance and other adverse effects of a high-fat diet in mice, Vanderbilt University investigators have discovered.

http://news.vanderbilt.edu/2014/07/bacteria-prevent-obesity/

having less effective bacteria so you can eat more without getting fat, is a very wrong thinking. Also moral wrong. Specially as there is already a simple solution to the problem: Eat less and live with discipline

[Jingthing]

Preventing obesity medically isn't moral? Now I've officially heard everything.

[h90]

Preventing obesity medically isn't moral? Now I've officially heard everything.

To try to find ways to eat more and wasting the energy in the food, while in other parts of the world people starve has a doubtful moral.

It reminds me on the roman empire, where they initiated vomiting so they can eat again.

While some don't have enough others search for ways to waste even more without getting fat.

If your gut bacteria are more efficient and squeeze out more energy from the food, be happy and eat less. Living in moderation and with discipline is surely the better way.

It is the eating habits that make people fat, not the bacteria, not the genetic, not the food industry. If you are grown up and feed yourself fat it is only your own fault. For children the situation is different....of course. Here are the parents to blame.

[Jingthing]

Thanks for sharing your interesting POV.

Back to the topic, please.

[Jingthing]

Dogs too!

http://news.sciencemag.org/health/2014/11/guts-obese-dogs-look-similar-those-obese-people

Obese people have a less diverse array of bacteria living in their guts than do thin people—and the same holds true for dogs.

[Thai at Heart]

http://www.foxnews.com/health/2013/02/11/6-diet-myths-busted/

Consider this comment from the article you linked:

MiG says:

January 19, 2013 at 7:26 AM

Your complaint is correct but your reasoning is as flawed as if you got the answer from a crystal ball.

The laws of thermodynamics are not a lab curiosity, they are universal laws that withstand our best efforts to circumvent them.

Because there are no nuclear reactions within us, its ultimately its a balance of the energy in the bonds between atoms of EVERYTHING that goes in and out of us. I hope you understand that thats an extraordinarily difficult thing to quantify, and thats why the simple formula is abused.

The biggest problem is that assessing calories out is almost impossible, and calories in is also subject to assumptions. The basic equation is sound, but the inputs are never correct.

If you dont extract all the energy that the calorimeter says you consumed, it will come out of you one way or another. There is no disappearing energy! However there are plenty of asinine simplifications, assumptions and ignorance. Digestion differences and heat output from person to person will change energy out in ways that pathetic statistics based formulas will not account for! Youd need to know the exact change in potential energy stored in the persons body (either by fat or other biological processes), the exact heat loss, the exact potential energy lost in EVERYTHING that comes out of them. Were talking knowing the amounts and composition of the gasses, solids and liquids that come in and out of a person. For example, our digestion can produce methane. Methane is energetic and reactive enough that its called a fuel!

If everyone just avoided the pseudo physics the world would be a better place. An analogy of sorts to what the fitness world is doing with physics, is taking an out of context quote from a philosophy book as an unequivocal argument.

All I want if people to realize that you can only apply energy in energy out to complex systems in an approximate way, and that is *not a flaw in the laws of thermodynamics.*

Yes I saw that but that sort of agrees with the proposition that calories in calories out is far too simplistic just that the writers reasoning was wrong.

The link from fox news is a far better article I think.

I really would have to ask though, what happens to a normal human being who eats less calories than he requires to maintain his weight.

Or, a person who eats exactly the correct amount of food for maintaining his weight were to exercise beyond a normal living amount to consume some of these calories.

If something was made up of zero calorific value, but was made up necessary nutrients to live and tasted like your favorite food, what would happen if you atr it for a month?

You would feel satiated, but the weight would fall off.

Yes speed of metabolism has something to do with it, stomach health, etc etc.

But it doesn't change the fact that a calorie is a calorie, and if you don't consume it, you don't need to burn it. I am confused as to what u think happens if you consume fewer calories than u need?

[Jingthing]

The story of the link between gut bacteria and weight control issues marches on!

Bacterial waste makes you feel fuller for longer

It may not sound very appetising, but an edible powder made from waste excreted by bacteria in our guts may help people to avoid gaining weight

http://www.newscientist.com/article/dn26698-bacterial-waste-makes-you-feel-fuller-for-longer.html?cmpid=RSS|NSNS|2012-GLOBAL|online-news#.VI8zcdKUe9q

[h90]

The story of the link between gut bacteria and weight control issues marches on!

Bacterial waste makes you feel fuller for longer

It may not sound very appetising, but an edible powder made from waste excreted by bacteria in our guts may help people to avoid gaining weight

http://www.newscientist.com/article/dn26698-bacterial-waste-makes-you-feel-fuller-for-longer.html?cmpid=RSS|NSNS|2012-GLOBAL|online-news#.VI8zcdKUe9q

Eating less helps to avoid gaining weight not some magic powder (which most probable costs a lot).