Liverpool F.c.

[carmine]

So you are in fact no different to any other team. Fair play to you though for taking the time to respond.

[Abrak]

Personally I think the "Liverpool Way' should be kept behind 'closed doors'.

[marstons]

At Carmine since you called me out yet again!

Carmine I can honestly say I don't know you but what I can say is I don't think I would like you either, yes this is just a forum but you come across as one of the most spiteful posters on this thread. And you seem to think your opinions or your beliefs are far superior to anyone else's and if anyone should show any passion or support for their team they are to be ridiculed. You make it personal with you constant belittling of my opinions and beliefs instead of just a dig at the team or results (banter) it isn't!

Why would I expect you to understand what I say? But here goes....its called 'The Liverpool Way'

From the moment I was told about Liverpool FC by my family at the age of about 7 or 8 that was that....on the bad days it's a horrible thing but the love never goes away! You learn about a set of common values that I guess define us as Liverpool supporters (I am not saying we are better but just different) and a set of values that give our club and fans the identity and some sense of a relationship with the Club that makes it so special to be a Red with a real unwavering support of the team.

'The Liverpool way' in short it was moulded by Bill Shankly he made Liverpool FC into one of the greatest clubs in world football! It was a vision beyond just football...he wanted to use the City’s characteristics to define the culture of the club. He wanted to give Liverpool a unique identity and to lift the club and its supporters to the best in world football.

When Kenny returned I felt part of that had come back Ten Fold in complete contrast to another recent manager Mr Hodgson! I was gutted when Rafa left, he was a complete outsider like Hodgson but he was a winner and he became part of 'The Liverpool Way' he got us in so many ways and earned the respect of the supporters, even now he speaks of the love of the city and how his family still lives there, his genuine kindness and support to the Hillsborough group and his love of LFC. Even Houllier got us and the club on many levels and had that special love of the city after living and working there as a teacher many years before joining the club.

When you read Kenny's book 'My Liverpool' you read about the impression Shanks had on him, including Bob Paisley, Evans and everything about 'The Liverpool Way' and you get to see the connection with the fans that those managers had and especially what makes Kenny so special to us...

Times move on and players and managers come and go. All I ask is that a manager loves the club as much as WE DO or makes that effort to 'Get us' it is very obvious who does or doesn't. I would love to see the likes of a Carra come though and be part of the management and keep that sense of the Boot Room going and 'The Liverpool Way ' alive in the club. I would also love to see a young talented manager come in who whoever that may be but become part of what I have said just as many past managers have done.

I could go on all day but this will all fall on many deaf ears especially one persons ! as much as a Christian will have when listening to a Muslims beliefs and so on...I am sure some fellow reds who are old enough will certainly get what I am saying?

"Bastion of Invincibility" Liverpool Football Club.

A Bill Shankly qoute,

About Everton, once his greatest rivals, he wrote: "I have been received more warmly by Everton than I have by Liverpool. It is a scandal that I must write these words about the club I helped to build".^[128]

yes Liverpool fans are unique, hence my chance to see my club play away in Europe was denied by said fans due to a ban on English clubs. Same fans rushed the entrance in Athens risking another disaster, a friend of mine who goes every where with them was embarresed and ashamed, he had 4 people crushed in where he should have had one seat.

Come on Chelsea cant wait to see another one of Kenny's sad looks after the game, before he gets fired.

Edited May 2, 2012 by marstons

[MrRed]

Personally I think the "Liverpool Way' should be kept behind 'closed doors'.

Sadly it actually started happening when Benitez took over,the import of so many foreign players without the first clue of how they used to be run as a club that kept everything in doors.

Suarez is a prime example of that.

[marstons]

Hmmm I still think you'll finish in the top half. More luck than judgement though!

if you want to bring luck into it smokie then we've hit the woodwork far, far more than any other side this season. if all the post and bar-hitting chances had gone in apparently we'd be third.

so i'll leave luck out of it. we need to make major changes this summer and i think we will. the owners haven't really spent very much money yet so if they are serious about getting the club back up to the top with regular champions league football then they're going to have to step up.

and before all the clowns leap in with 'but but but kenny's spent over 100m!!!' - the net spend since the FSG owners bought the club for a knockdown price off the two cowboys is around 35m. and that includes money from revenues generated on merchandising, marketing etc. so they have hardly gone all mansour on us.

Dont forget the new ground they promised as well,

[carmine]

Dev's post is full of correct and noble principles. I don't have a problem with any of it. All i am saying is that theres basically no difference in those principles that every other club embraces.

The difference is we don't try and label ourselves as unique. Spurs fans don't continually go on about the Tottenham way that was built up by the great Bill Nicholson. Yes he is revered at White Hart Lane and rightly so, as Shankly is at Anfield, and yes we like to play attacking football but its not 'our' way. Nicholson had a love of our club too but thats not unique either. If you are unique then its simply on the basis that every club is unique. If you choose to see yourselves as unique then thats fine but don't be surprised if it raises rather a lot of sniggers.

[smokie36]

How can you be so far behind us having spent £62m more than us?

Over to you Abrak....

Edited May 2, 2012 by smokie36

[Abrak]

How can you be so far behind us having spent £62m more than us?

Over to you Abrak....

Well if you look at the entire period in your link 2007 to 2011 the difference in spend between Liverpool and Tottenham is actually 25m. Considering we spent 35m on Carroll and you spent nothing on Adebayor (while getting 12m for Crouch) as you got him on loan, the difference really doesnt amount to much.

Edited May 2, 2012 by Abrak

[MrRed]

But the difference between Adebayor and Carroll is very much

[Abrak]

But the difference between Adebayor and Carroll is very much

I agree but I think Spurs are kidding themselves if they think they have 'acquired' Adebayor for a negative net spend of 12m - namely for free plus the sale proceeds of Crouch.

At the end of the day they are still without a striker and have simply deferred their spend until this summer.

[Abrak]

Hmmm I still think you'll finish in the top half. More luck than judgement though!

if you want to bring luck into it smokie then we've hit the woodwork far, far more than any other side this season. if all the post and bar-hitting chances had gone in apparently we'd be third.

so i'll leave luck out of it. we need to make major changes this summer and i think we will. the owners haven't really spent very much money yet so if they are serious about getting the club back up to the top with regular champions league football then they're going to have to step up.

and before all the clowns leap in with 'but but but kenny's spent over 100m!!!' - the net spend since the FSG owners bought the club for a knockdown price off the two cowboys is around 35m. and that includes money from revenues generated on merchandising, marketing etc. so they have hardly gone all mansour on us.

I dont really see us spending big this summer.

At the end of the day FSG are still trying to get us on a sound financial footing after the mess left by the H+G years.

Our financial figures for 10/11 are out probably on Monday. The revenue figure should be pretty good all things considered. Revenue should be 185m marginally up on the previous year which is pretty good considering that there were no CL revenues (it will reflect the strong growth in commercial revenues.)

However, EBITDA will only be around 10m due to the bloated wage bill under the Hodgson signings and contract extensions. The wage bill was cut last summer when we got rid of a lot of the dead wood and next season we will get extra revenues from the Warrior deal. But in order to get EBITDA to a level of 30m, at which point the club is largely self-financing, the wage bill needs to be held pretty flat this summer.

So I dont think there are major constraints on spending as such just constraints on the amounts of wages we can bring in. Obviously the sale/release of Kuyt and Maxi will free up wages. Lots of rumours about Johnson being sold. It would be good if we could finally lose Cole.

The bottom line result will look pretty grim especially as there is likely to be a 50m write-off of development expenses on the new stadium.

[nellyp]

Spiteful comment Abby

But very very funny

[sharecropper]

Hmmm I still think you'll finish in the top half. More luck than judgement though!

if you want to bring luck into it smokie then we've hit the woodwork far, far more than any other side this season. if all the post and bar-hitting chances had gone in apparently we'd be third.

so i'll leave luck out of it. we need to make major changes this summer and i think we will. the owners haven't really spent very much money yet so if they are serious about getting the club back up to the top with regular champions league football then they're going to have to step up.

and before all the clowns leap in with 'but but but kenny's spent over 100m!!!' - the net spend since the FSG owners bought the club for a knockdown price off the two cowboys is around 35m. and that includes money from revenues generated on merchandising, marketing etc. so they have hardly gone all mansour on us.

I dont really see us spending big this summer.

At the end of the day FSG are still trying to get us on a sound financial footing after the mess left by the H+G years.

Our financial figures for 10/11 are out probably on Monday. The revenue figure should be pretty good all things considered. Revenue should be 185m marginally up on the previous year which is pretty good considering that there were no CL revenues (it will reflect the strong growth in commercial revenues.)

However, EBITDA will only be around 10m due to the bloated wage bill under the Hodgson signings and contract extensions. The wage bill was cut last summer when we got rid of a lot of the dead wood and next season we will get extra revenues from the Warrior deal. But in order to get EBITDA to a level of 30m, at which point the club is largely self-financing, the wage bill needs to be held pretty flat this summer.

So I dont think there are major constraints on spending as such just constraints on the amounts of wages we can bring in. Obviously the sale/release of Kuyt and Maxi will free up wages. Lots of rumours about Johnson being sold. It would be good if we could finally lose Cole.

The bottom line result will look pretty grim especially as there is likely to be a 50m write-off of development expenses on the new stadium.

Abrak from one of your earlier posts today -

the net spend since the FSG owners bought the club for a knockdown price off the two cowboys is around 35m

They bought the club (in my opinion fraudulently or certainly in suspicious circumstances, in cahoots with the banks who held the former charges), at a knockdown price, yet you are still blaming the former owners for the current financial woes. I just don't buy it. Is it part of the Liverpool Way to blame everybody else but those in charge right now?

[Devil]

Spiteful comment Abby

But very very funny

[sharecropper]

Spiteful comment Abby

But very very funny

Not really, when I have been so horribly and spitefully vilified, when all I tried to do was make you see that, far from having a Liverpool Way, you actually have No Way. Or the Same Way As Every Other Club.

We can put the debate to rest now, as we all know where it stands.

Phew.

[Abrak]

'The Liverpool Way'

'The ThaiVisa Great Debate'

[StevieH]

Sadly it actually started happening when Benitez took over,the import of so many foreign players without the first clue of how they used to be run as a club that kept everything in doors.

Suarez is a prime example of that.

garbage, mr ed. if you don't think that players like pepe reina, xabi alonso, luis garcia and in particular benitez himself 'got' the liverpool way and what the club means to the people of the city then you are, as so often, talking out of your hole.

but i'll leave this discussion there. talking about the liverpool way and what it is, or perhaps was, with a man united fan is like discussing astronomy with a flat-earther.

[StevieH]

Dont forget the new ground they promised as well,

yes, their silence on that very important issue has been deafening.

[StevieH]

Abrak from one of your earlier posts today -

the net spend since the FSG owners bought the club for a knockdown price off the two cowboys is around 35m

They bought the club (in my opinion fraudulently or certainly in suspicious circumstances, in cahoots with the banks who held the former charges), at a knockdown price, yet you are still blaming the former owners for the current financial woes. I just don't buy it. Is it part of the Liverpool Way to blame everybody else but those in charge right now?

from one of my posts actually bitter blue boy. only an evertonian could still, in the face of all the evidence and a high court judge's ruling, still maintain that the removal of LFC from the ownership of hicks and gillett could be in any way 'fraudulent'. it can only mean that you either know nothing about what went on and the true ins and outs of the situation - in which case why comment so uninformedly? - or you are simply defaulting to being a bitter blue. sad.

[Abrak]

Abrak from one of your earlier posts today -

the net spend since the FSG owners bought the club for a knockdown price off the two cowboys is around 35m

They bought the club (in my opinion fraudulently or certainly in suspicious circumstances, in cahoots with the banks who held the former charges), at a knockdown price, yet you are still blaming the former owners for the current financial woes. I just don't buy it. Is it part of the Liverpool Way to blame everybody else but those in charge right now?

First, the quote, you quote is from Stevie. I dont really subscribe to the idea that FSG bought Liverpool for a 'knockdown price' nor as part of a 'conspiracy' for two reasons.

1. In the previous 4 years Liverpool FC had made combined consolidate net losses of 185m pounds and in each of those 4 years, Liverpool had the benefit of CL revenues. So the business was losing huge amounts of money even when it was doing well on the pitch. Without those CL revenues what was left of its business model was completely broken.

2. The business had been openly up for sale for at least six months and was weeks away from bankruptcy. Anyone could have bought it but people were hardly queuing up with open cheque books to buy the club. Now supporters always think their clubs are gold mines. They always think that new stadiums are licenses to print money. I am sure when someone buys Everton, everyone will say they bought it on the cheap but the fact is that it has been up for sale and noone has bought it and so when it is sold that will be the going price.

As far as I can see it is difficult to imagine how Liverpool can really make money when it is competing for CL places against two clubs that have infinite capital and two clubs that have much better fundamentals especially when it is committed to winning rather than making money. So if they make a lot of money good luck to them - I guess we shall see.

Incidentally I am not sure how your conspiracy theory works from here. You expect Liverpool to flounder in mid table obscurity but the shareholders to make a fortune?

Clearly the owners knew they bought a financial basket case. So they can hardly complain that the club is a mess. However you cant turn things around over night. Wages account for 65% of revenues and most players are signed on 3-5 year contracts. The next set of results go to July 2011 so FSG were only owners for 6 months. The 50m write off new stadium development costs were costs that H&G spent developing a new stadium. It will take 3 years to turn around Liverpool's finances. Take a look at Aston Villa, they are still haemorraging from the excesses of M O'N.

Obviously if you could turn around a football club's finances in a year then they would have bought Liverpool on the cheap. And if Liverpool had been available 'on the cheap' someone would have been prepared to pay more for the club.

You buy the club, invest in the losses to get to breakeven, invest in the squad, try to build a stadium while investing very little and all in all it doesnt work out cheap.

[StevieH]

2. The business had been openly up for sale for at least six months and was weeks away from bankruptcy. Anyone could have bought it but people were hardly queuing up with open cheque books to buy the club.

the club received a number of legitimate bids abrak but tom hicks, in his insane greed, kept turning them down in his pursuit of an unrealistic profit. we were the victims of a leveraged buyout which sought to strip assets (player sales, transferral of revenues into shell companies, negative net spend) and yet still sell the club as a going concern for a 100% profit. that was where the robbery was taking place and thankfully a sensible judge ruled that the owners were unfit for purpose and told hicks and gillett where to get off.

if you've not yet read brian reade's book 'an epic swindle' i recommend you do mate.

[MrRed]

Sadly it actually started happening when Benitez took over,the import of so many foreign players without the first clue of how they used to be run as a club that kept everything in doors.

Suarez is a prime example of that.

garbage, mr ed. if you don't think that players like pepe reina, xabi alonso, luis garcia and in particular benitez himself 'got' the liverpool way and what the club means to the people of the city then you are, as so often, talking out of your hole.

but i'll leave this discussion there. talking about the liverpool way and what it is, or perhaps was, with a man united fan is like discussing astronomy with a flat-earther.

Star-gazing ok Einstein i don't think that players you mentioned do get "it" and the proof is that they all stayed for a relatively short time didn't they except Reina

Alonso? don't make me laugh he soon shot off for the money,and Garcia wasn't he an actor? or are we talking about the other actor who brought the club into disrepute around the world this season? ohhhhh Luis Garcia the man that played about 70 times for Liverpool!!! but incredibly you think that he got the Liverpool way in that short time?? I think you need to stop STAR-gazing mate and get into reality.

The sad thing for your lot is evident in your post,harking back to a Spanish waiter and his success in the Champions League and what did he do in the League while he was winning 1 Champions League in his first season??? he went on to be there another 6 seasons and won nothing of note and ruined your Liverpool way by signing players that where basically Spanish and he thought would understand HIS philosophy on football which was not the same as you and your scouse mates all want to see again.

Actually most credit should really go to Mr Gerard Houllier for that European success.He was there 5 or 6 years right?

And to put you right on the flat earth principle which i don't agree with,are you saying that flatearther also do not believe in astronomy?

Dreamer.

[MrRed]

Sadly it actually started happening when Benitez took over,the import of so many foreign players without the first clue of how they used to be run as a club that kept everything in doors.

Suarez is a prime example of that.

garbage, mr ed. if you don't think that players like pepe reina, xabi alonso, luis garcia and in particular benitez himself 'got' the liverpool way and what the club means to the people of the city then you are, as so often, talking out of your hole.

but i'll leave this discussion there. talking about the liverpool way and what it is, or perhaps was, with a man united fan is like discussing astronomy with a flat-earther.

I just saw in your post that the Liverpool way is perhaps no more? when do you think this happened?

All cities and towns around the country have there clubs and some like Newcastle and Leeds will show Liverpool what it means to the people in the city,that is just normal! again you are not special about this Stevie.It is just your perception that you are.

Liverpool living in the past..... long may it continue and the supporters attitude along with it

[Devil]

Enjoy fellow Reds

[sharecropper]

Abrak from one of your earlier posts today -

the net spend since the FSG owners bought the club for a knockdown price off the two cowboys is around 35m

They bought the club (in my opinion fraudulently or certainly in suspicious circumstances, in cahoots with the banks who held the former charges), at a knockdown price, yet you are still blaming the former owners for the current financial woes. I just don't buy it. Is it part of the Liverpool Way to blame everybody else but those in charge right now?

First, the quote, you quote is from Stevie. I dont really subscribe to the idea that FSG bought Liverpool for a 'knockdown price' nor as part of a 'conspiracy' for two reasons.

1. In the previous 4 years Liverpool FC had made combined consolidate net losses of 185m pounds and in each of those 4 years, Liverpool had the benefit of CL revenues. So the business was losing huge amounts of money even when it was doing well on the pitch. Without those CL revenues what was left of its business model was completely broken.

2. The business had been openly up for sale for at least six months and was weeks away from bankruptcy. Anyone could have bought it but people were hardly queuing up with open cheque books to buy the club. Now supporters always think their clubs are gold mines. They always think that new stadiums are licenses to print money. I am sure when someone buys Everton, everyone will say they bought it on the cheap but the fact is that it has been up for sale and noone has bought it and so when it is sold that will be the going price.

As far as I can see it is difficult to imagine how Liverpool can really make money when it is competing for CL places against two clubs that have infinite capital and two clubs that have much better fundamentals especially when it is committed to winning rather than making money. So if they make a lot of money good luck to them - I guess we shall see.

Incidentally I am not sure how your conspiracy theory works from here. You expect Liverpool to flounder in mid table obscurity but the shareholders to make a fortune?

Clearly the owners knew they bought a financial basket case. So they can hardly complain that the club is a mess. However you cant turn things around over night. Wages account for 65% of revenues and most players are signed on 3-5 year contracts. The next set of results go to July 2011 so FSG were only owners for 6 months. The 50m write off new stadium development costs were costs that H&G spent developing a new stadium. It will take 3 years to turn around Liverpool's finances. Take a look at Aston Villa, they are still haemorraging from the excesses of M O'N.

Obviously if you could turn around a football club's finances in a year then they would have bought Liverpool on the cheap. And if Liverpool had been available 'on the cheap' someone would have been prepared to pay more for the club.

You buy the club, invest in the losses to get to breakeven, invest in the squad, try to build a stadium while investing very little and all in all it doesnt work out cheap.

Thanks - an interesting post.

My point about the way the club was acquired relates to the timing of the triggering of the charges. I can't believe the banks were not in discussion with the new owners to force out the old ones when their backs were against the wall in negotiating a price with the White Knights coming in.

It's not a footy point. You are almost certainly right that the new owners paid what they thought the going rate was, but the banks undercut the old owners from being able to name a price of silly money and prevented them from refusing to sell unless it was met.

I apologise for confusing your post for one of StevieH's - I know how tough that must be for you.

[sharecropper]

2. The business had been openly up for sale for at least six months and was weeks away from bankruptcy. Anyone could have bought it but people were hardly queuing up with open cheque books to buy the club.

the club received a number of legitimate bids abrak but tom hicks, in his insane greed, kept turning them down in his pursuit of an unrealistic profit. we were the victims of a leveraged buyout which sought to strip assets (player sales, transferral of revenues into shell companies, negative net spend) and yet still sell the club as a going concern for a 100% profit. that was where the robbery was taking place and thankfully a sensible judge ruled that the owners were unfit for purpose and told hicks and gillett where to get off.

if you've not yet read brian reade's book 'an epic swindle' i recommend you do mate.

Wasn't it that the charging documents were very clear, H&G were in breach. The banks didn't need to indulge them any further and called in their loans. End of.

I don't think the judge looked at their fitness for running a clapped out club. (Sorry had to get that in).

[cardholder]

Dalgleish's position must be becoming untenable ?

[Thaddeus]

I don't think the judge looked at their fitness for running a clapped out club. (Sorry had to get that in).

Ah well, what's best, a has been or a never was,

And probably never will be (Sorry, had to get that in)

Edited May 2, 2012 by Thaddeus

[nellyp]

Too many post on here about the semantics of football, it's all getting a bit depressing. let's leave the way alone as the posts about it are now boring me to death. i can't even be bothered to reply to them. We had a glorious hat-trick on the weekend and the most boring game i have seen in a long time on Tuesday. How many posts about them? Count them on one hand.

here's a starter for 10. I want to see a few players out. They include Carragher (please don't kill me fellow supporters) because I think his day is gone,. should he stay and help coaching and be an emergency measure, or move to another club? Downing should also go ( we were so much better for the secoind half of the first half), where do you think he would fit in and how much is he worth?

[nellyp]

I don't think the judge looked at their fitness for running a clapped out club. (Sorry had to get that in).

Ah well, what's best, a has been or a never was,

And probably never will be (Sorry, had to get that in)

heee heee