Liverpool F.c.

[redscouse]

so now my support is being questioned

since when has being a fan meaning that you have to blindly support and accept everything bad within a club, I suppose you have always supported everyone and everything to do with the club, I suppose you never slated diouff or Diao.

listen mate I don't want to get into a cock waving contest about who is the best supporter, i have earned my stripes over the years and I have my own opinions. like I said to steve anytime you want to check my credentials feel free however be prepared to be embarrassed.

why is it when anyone has a different opinion their support is questioned, its a lazy argument to be fair, you don't know me, you have never met me, you have no idea how many games I have been in my life, you have no idea at what level I played the game.

since you want to be childish I will question your support (like it really makes any difference who is the best supporter, it doesn't affect what is happening on the pitch), if you are the type of fan who likes boring unattractive football go and watch the bitters, personally I like to see good football and we have the team capable of playing it, however we have a manager who has no interest in playing it, he is killing our game in my opinion

steve mentioned the champions league, yes it was a fantastic night (I should know, I was there, were you?) however rafa got his selection wrong and the change was made purely because of an injury to finnan which meant hamman coming on, he should have been on at the start. Look at athens, he got that completely wrong and never had the blessing of an injury to force his hand, we were playing against the oldest defence in europe yet he played with one up front who just happen to be the slowest player in europe (steve thinks he is the second best player this season, I disagree as I am not wearing the rose tinted specs, I can see kuyt for what he is, a work horse with limited skills).

yes we have outplayed the other top three teams, however we struggled against stoke, wigan, west ham, hull etc, the same as last season, too many draws because we do not have the ability to kill off games. its all very well playing counter attack but the other team has to attack for that, stoke didn't and we couldn't break them down.

I am wondering if you guys started supporting after istanbul and everything is rosy in your eyes, I will question your support since you question mine, steve put up a reasonable defence of his opinion which is admirable, i could counter all his points and I probably will tomorrow but my bed is calling now.

as for bitching etc, its called having an opinion devil, (great name for a liverpool fan), my opinion in also backed by many fans who still go the game, yes I know an field is full of wools now more interested in taking pictures and just cheering blindly, but there are still many scousers who go the game who are annoyed.

also be aware I did not call for rafas sacking, he has many flaws and i simply point them out, just as many of our players are just not good enough, these are the hard facts. would kuyt get into the manc, chavs or arsenal teams? of course he wouldnt, yet he is failed forward for us who is dire on the wing. blind support is all well and good but at the end of the day however much you want some of our players to be class, sadly not all of them are and its pointless lying and pretending they are.

so to sum up, rfa has many flaws, we will not win the league with him in charge while he continues with his negative football and insistence on playing players out of position, his stupid substitutions that do not benefit the team (the comment about knowing when players tire is just laughable really, sorry).

Anyway guys it would be good to meet up for a beer and watch a game, I have no grudges, but questioning my support is way of the mark, I have never and will never stop supporting the club, <deleted> i grew up a stones throw from the ground and eat, sleep and drink this club, but one important thing guys is support does not mean you have to agree with everything, I love the club and want them to do well and that's why the mediocrity that we have seen this season and the past 4 annoys me, yes we are top, we are top because our competition has been performing as badly as we have, this is a fact, more balls from the boss and we would be more than one point clear

so question my support guys and I will ask you why you are happy to accept poor football, why you make excuses for poor results, why you make excuses for poor selection. That to me sounds like fans who don't know what it's like to win the league, sounds like fans who are willing to accept second best (or fourth or fifth best). I am not, we have players capable of winning the league, we had players capable of doing it last season, what we don't have is a manager who believes in the talent he has available.

goodnight guys, don't let this get out of hand questioning support, it's a difference of opinion nothing riles me more than people questioning the support of a lifelong fan who has been there, done it, wore the t shirt etc when they have never even met me. lets keep it civil, i will always explain my comments if asked, I wont just make rash comments like kuyt is shit without backing it up, if you think I am wrong explain why like steve did.

cheers

Edited December 23, 2008 by redscouse

[Devil]

so now my support is being questioned

so to sum up, rfa has many flaws, we will not win the league with him in charge while he continues with his negative football and insistence on playing players out of position, his stupid substitutions that do not benefit the team (the comment about knowing when players tire is just laughable really, sorry).

You obviously presumed I was talking about you directly but there have been a few other posts similar to yours before today and was a knee jerk reaction... Posters asking for Raffa head, Keane to be sold in January etc etc. As a fan you should know how sensitive one can get when some one calls our beloved team maybe its just me. I can take it better from the other teams as its just jealousy from them.

Maybe the issue is this, You don't feel we are doing well right now or going anywhere with Raffa? but for me its the best I have seen us do in a long long time and think he has taken us in the right direction and yet keeps improving us in more areas each season as a club. I am worried sick with the off the pitch bullshit by the Americans and our financial situation but that's a whole other story.

I just happen to be a fan of Raffa's (as you may see in some previous posts) and love the passion and commitment brought in to the side by the likes of players like Kuyt. When I see players with 3x his ability but they don't even put in half of his effort and commitment. I guess in a all of us we see something in a player that all of us Fans can relate to (the underdog) if you will, with all due respect to Kuyt.

Have a good Christmas mate... We should be celebrating being top that's all

Forgive the spelling exhausted from Chrimbo shopping today!

[Jimjim]

Well we both know this won't happen so you better just hope for Arsenal mate.

It's Christmas time. Time for Christmas wishes. You better just go ahead and wish for the Carling Cup trophy, as that's all you're gonna get this season.

We already have the WORLD CLUB CUP mate, Carling will be #2 (are you still in the competition?), then the FA, EPL and Champions league. That would make 5.

Wow, world cub cup, you played two whole matches to get that one, and gave up three goals to a Japanese side. Well done, well done. Oh, and how 'bout that Super Cup? Good job on that one. You won, right?

Um, yeah, don't really care if Liverpool are in the Carling Cup. That's why I said you could have it. Nice try at a dig, though, bandwagon boy.

[redscouse]

so now my support is being questioned

so to sum up, rfa has many flaws, we will not win the league with him in charge while he continues with his negative football and insistence on playing players out of position, his stupid substitutions that do not benefit the team (the comment about knowing when players tire is just laughable really, sorry).

You obviously presumed I was talking about you directly but there have been a few other posts similar to yours before today and was a knee jerk reaction... Posters asking for Raffa head, Keane to be sold in January etc etc. As a fan you should know how sensitive one can get when some one calls our beloved team maybe its just me. I can take it better from the other teams as its just jealousy from them.

Maybe the issue is this, You don't feel we are doing well right now or going anywhere with Raffa? but for me its the best I have seen us do in a long long time and think he has taken us in the right direction and yet keeps improving us in more areas each season as a club. I am worried sick with the off the pitch bullshit by the Americans and our financial situation but that's a whole other story.

I just happen to be a fan of Raffa's (as you may see in some previous posts) and love the passion and commitment brought in to the side by the likes of players like Kuyt. When I see players with 3x his ability but they don't even put in half of his effort and commitment. I guess in a all of us we see something in a player that all of us Fans can relate to (the underdog) if you will, with all due respect to Kuyt.

Have a good Christmas mate... We should be celebrating being top that's all

Forgive the spelling exhausted from Chrimbo shopping today!

cool mate, you have a great xmas as well.

I am happy we are top devil, of course I am, but tinged with some annoyance that we haven't built a bigger gap because the chance was there.

As for kuyt, it takes more than hard work to be a footballer some level of ability is needed at the top level but he just doesn't have the ability to go with his effort, too many moves break down when the ball gets to him, not good enough and never will be, sure i admire his effort (although i cont see it as being much more than other players and most of his effort is on trying to get the ball back he has just lost)

anyway have a good one guys (don't worry about the typo's mate, my posts are full of them, fas fingers but not always on the right keys)

[bkkjames]

Well we both know this won't happen so you better just hope for Arsenal mate.

It's Christmas time. Time for Christmas wishes. You better just go ahead and wish for the Carling Cup trophy, as that's all you're gonna get this season.

We already have the WORLD CLUB CUP mate, Carling will be #2 (are you still in the competition?), then the FA, EPL and Champions league. That would make 5.

Wow, world cub cup, you played two whole matches to get that one, and gave up three goals to a Japanese side. Well done, well done. Oh, and how 'bout that Super Cup? Good job on that one. You won, right?

Um, yeah, don't really care if Liverpool are in the Carling Cup. That's why I said you could have it. Nice try at a dig, though, bandwagon boy.

Super Cup, oh yea, well I guess we can't win em all. 3 goals to a Japanese side, yep, one penalty, one great strike and one when the game was well and truly over.

Anyways, just keep drawing your games mate and we will see you in April May

[StevieH]

redscouse, your posts are far too long to dissect every time man. suffice to say though that if you are the long-term, arl arse fan that you claim then you'll know that when we were winning everything in sight we didn't give a shit about 'attractive football' or 'entertainment' and as such we don't now either. it's about winning, end of.

you're still wrong about kuyt by the way. top player and proper team man. i think your priorities are way, way off for a liverpool fan, particularly one who claims to have followed the club as long as you do.

[bkkjames]

All this in-fighting between supporters of a team in first place - Amazing Scouseland it is.

[StevieH]

All this in-fighting between supporters of a team in first place - Amazing Scouseland it is.

healthy debate is all james.

[redscouse]

well james it wasn't long ago the mancs were calling for old red noses head.

steve I am an arl arse mate and we all know nostalgia isn't what it always was, I am opinionated about the club and I know we all have different views, it would be boring if we all thought the same.

a little analogy though steve, lets just say Kuala lumpur is the league title, I want to fly there and you are happy to go on that horrific train journey, either way we still get there. if however the PAD terrorists take over the airport again I will accept the train journey but complain about it most of the way.

Oh and I am right about kuyt

[bkkjames]

well james it wasn't long ago the mancs were calling for old red noses head.

steve I am an arl arse mate and we all know nostalgia isn't what it always was, I am opinionated about the club and I know we all have different views, it would be boring if we all thought the same.

a little analogy though steve, lets just say Kuala lumpur is the league title, I want to fly there and you are happy to go on that horrific train journey, either way we still get there. if however the PAD terrorists take over the airport again I will accept the train journey but complain about it most of the way.

Oh and I am right about kuyt

I do agree with you about Rafa-red face.

[StevieH]

well james it wasn't long ago the mancs were calling for old red noses head.

steve I am an arl arse mate and we all know nostalgia isn't what it always was, I am opinionated about the club and I know we all have rent views, it would be boring if we all thought the same.

a little analogy though steve, lets just say Kuala lumpur is the league title, I want to fly there and you are happy to go on that horrific train journey, either way we still get there. if however the PAD terrorists take over the airport again I will accept the train journey but complain about it most of the way.

Oh and I am right about kuyt

shocking analogy though man.

you should know that liverpool fc never, ever does anything easy. how can you say that we're boring when you consider the highs and lows of the 2005 european cup win, olympiakos, juventus, chelsea and milan?

it is never, ever boring watching liverpool.

[bkkjames]

well james it wasn't long ago the mancs were calling for old red noses head.

steve I am an arl arse mate and we all know nostalgia isn't what it always was, I am opinionated about the club and I know we all have rent views, it would be boring if we all thought the same.

a little analogy though steve, lets just say Kuala lumpur is the league title, I want to fly there and you are happy to go on that horrific train journey, either way we still get there. if however the PAD terrorists take over the airport again I will accept the train journey but complain about it most of the way.

Oh and I am right about kuyt

shocking analogy though man.

you should know that liverpool fc never, ever does anything easy. how can you say that we're boring when you consider the highs and lows of the 2005 european cup win, olympiakos, juventus, chelsea and milan?

it is never, ever boring watching liverpool.

i dont know stevie, i watched the arsenal game and it was pretty <deleted> boring if you asked me.

[redscouse]

you should know that liverpool fc never, ever does anything easy.

not any more we don't.

just a question steve, i don't ask so I can snipe, but what age are you? how far back do you go?

The reason I ask is I know many reds my age (41) with my mentality and the younger guys seem to have the attitude that everything is ok, a lot of the younger guys don't remember the title wins and the champions league win was their first big trophy,

like I say its not to snipe and i don't go in for all that 'I am a better fan than you' nonsense, to me it's not how big a fan you are when discussing football but it's your football knowledge which is more important, lets face it if we had no football knowldge we would be following the mancs and the chavs.

[StevieH]

i dont know stevie, i watched the arsenal game and it was pretty <deleted> boring if you asked me.

thought it was a fascinating game. you were expecting a four all draw?

think we're back to the difference between football purists and those wanting 'entertainment' here.

[bkkjames]

you should know that liverpool fc never, ever does anything easy.

not any more we don't.

just a question steve, i don't ask so I can snipe, but what age are you? how far back do you go?

The reason I ask is I know many reds my age (41) with my mentality and the younger guys seem to have the attitude that everything is ok, a lot of the younger guys don't remember the title wins and the champions league win was their first big trophy,

like I say its not to snipe and i don't go in for all that 'I am a better fan than you' nonsense, to me it's not how big a fan you are when discussing football but it's your football knowledge which is more important, lets face it if we had no football knowldge we would be following the mancs and the chavs.

I can't speak for Stevie Wonder Boy, but I am 41 and because of this, I can't go back as far as I used to either.

[StevieH]

not any more we don't.

just a question steve, i don't ask so I can snipe, but what age are you? how far back do you go?

The reason I ask is I know many reds my age (41) with my mentality and the younger guys seem to have the attitude that everything is ok, a lot of the younger guys don't remember the title wins and the champions league win was their first big trophy,

like I say its not to snipe and i don't go in for all that 'I am a better fan than you' nonsense, to me it's not how big a fan you are when discussing football but it's your football knowledge which is more important, lets face it if we had no football knowldge we would be following the mancs and the chavs.

i'm 35 mate and my first game at anfield was in 1979, the year we positively breezed to the league title. so i followed us through the 80s when we bored teams to death and to two more european cups, the hansen / lawrenson / grobelaar triangle, then kenny's reign when we were majestic with barnes and beardsley pulling the strings and then right through bullshit of the evans and souness years which nearly finished us as a top club.

i'd disagree entirely with your age point, as most of the guys i know of my age and older accept that football is football and winning is all that counts. how you get there is irrelevant. your claims for 'attractive football' i utterly disagree with as you can see how far that's got arsenal over the past four seasons or so since wenger gave up any remaining pragmatism to become an obsessive aesthete.

honestly, every match-going mate of mine back home does not care one fuc_king jot how we win the league title, just that we get a bit closer each season and that we challenge properly. which, having given rafa benitez the time to build something, we look like doing this season.

[redscouse]

ok fair enough,do you think he was tight to leave keane on the bench against hull and do you think the substitutions on sunday were the right ones? are you never left scratching your head at his substitutions such as lucas for mash recently or bringing keane off on sunday and the standard babel for rierra on the left, its no surprise that babales best game for us was at PSV where he played on the right, yet he is constantly put on the left where he is less effective (but then i suppose rafas son would have to come off if he was played on the right )

some of his decisions are mystifying, even to greater footballing brains than mine and I think the defence of him sometimes is blinkered and just shows own club bias.

anyway time will tell whether 'in rafa we trust' is the right way forward, I think we are right to question him and he has got rid of some his stranger selections this season, yet he is still prone to the strange subs and the the even stranger defence of some of his decisions

[StevieH]

keane was stinking the place out in his previous half dozen games though, so perhaps it was the right decision. hindsight is always 20/20 isn't it? i probably would have brought him on as it goes as our options were limited, but then el zhar who did come on almost won the game for us but for a good save by myhill.

babel's an absolute joke in my opinion, he shows no heart, no committment and seems more bothered about his rapping career than he does about becoming a top footballer. he doesn't look like a striker, a wide right or a wide left. most of the time he doesn't even look like a footballer.

i'll criticise rafa if i think he's wrong but 99% of the time i'll back the manager. he's brought us far, far more good times than bad and is showing that when he's backed properly in the transfer market and given time to do what he wants to do he'll take us increasingly in the right direction. i wouldn't swap him for anyone in the game right now.

[bkkjames]

i dont know stevie, i watched the arsenal game and it was pretty <deleted> boring if you asked me.

thought it was a fascinating game. you were expecting a four all draw?

think we're back to the difference between football purists and those wanting 'entertainment' here.

not hard to get you to bite.

then again, chess is exciting to watch as well.

"That Rafa is a shrewd customer, watch his next move...will he go for the pond or try to win it all and take the bishop. A yes, a safe move it was, pull his knight back to the middle and play it safe. I think he is going for the stalemate - at least that way he can't lose"

[Jimjim]

Redscouse, I guess you were disappointed to see such a talentless player as Kuyt score the winning goal in amazing comebacks against Man City and Wigan (brace in that one), right? I think everyone agrees he doesn't have the most talent and yet you just say working hard doesn't get you enough. Does it get you 7 goals? That's second most this season, by the way, and most matches he has not played striker. Yes, he frustrates at times with poor touches but I think he's been fantastic this season on the right. He has more talent than you give him credit for and his goal tally this season frankly speaks for itself. I think you just have got it in your head not to like him so are finding every argument against him and ignoring any positive for him. Ah well, go ahead, you can have your opinion.

And how do you know why he left Keane on the bench? Just speculation.

You're a pessimist, clear and simple. Nostalgic, as well. Pining for the old days. Get your head around it. Top of the league at Christmas, criticize the managers selection and buys, so how has he led us to the top? Pure luck? You act like Liverpool are bottom.

[bkkjames]

Redscouse, I guess you were disappointed to see such a talentless player as Kuyt score the winning goal in amazing comebacks against Man City and Wigan (brace in that one), right? I think everyone agrees he doesn't have the most talent and yet you just say working hard doesn't get you enough. Does it get you 7 goals? That's second most this season, by the way, and most matches he has not played striker. Yes, he frustrates at times with poor touches but I think he's been fantastic this season on the right. He has more talent than you give him credit for and his goal tally this season frankly speaks for itself. I think you just have got it in your head not to like him so are finding every argument against him and ignoring any positive for him. Ah well, go ahead, you can have your opinion.

And how do you know why he left Keane on the bench? Just speculation.

You're a pessimist, clear and simple. Nostalgic, as well. Pining for the old days. Get your head around it. Top of the league at Christmas, criticize the managers selection and buys, so how has he led us to the top? Pure luck? You act like Liverpool are bottom.

a touch harsh no? I mean after 18 or 19 years, one can hardly blame the guy

[redscouse]

am i annoyed when kuyt scores? of course not and I am sure you know that and are looking to cause some mischief, the club comes before any individual and i would be happy for him to prove me wrong and score in every game, some people do go on though about us only being in the CL group because of his goal in the qualifying game while missing the contribution of the rest of the team, reina especially, I dont buy into that 'but he scored the winner' as though it makes him some hero (this goes for any player nit just rafas son), that just belittles the contribution elsewhere. sorry guys he had a decent spell this season but he has reverted back to his old self the last few games, I would say his performance against hull was the worst I have seen from him but yet again he stays on the pitch, i am wondering what he would have to do to get subbed

but like i say to steve we all have opinions, you have yours and i have mine, not a pessimist and not a happy clapper either jim, i prefer realist. is it too much to ask to see some flowing football, some decent subs at the right times rather that the standard time for rafa. Are you not frustrated that we havent pulled away given the dropped points from others. all the points we are dropping is putting the likes of villa in the mix.

am i happy we are top? dam_n right I am

would I be happier without dropped points against the leagues flotsam? dam_n right I would be

is rafa the tactical genius some make him out to be? obviously not

was the arsenal result good? at the start of the season i would have taken it, at the end of the game however i saw the dropped points against 10 men.

remember 3 draws is equivalent to two losses and one win.

[Devil]

Busy next few days... Bolton at home (Boxing day) and Newcastle away Sunday.

News - injury blow for Arbeloa (out with hamstring injury) However good news Skrtel is expected to be back.

Carra will most likely fit in at right back or Darby may be given some playing time. ( could both Insua and Darby feature?)

Pre match Bolton - Sammy Lee

YNWA

[StevieH]

Busy next few days... Bolton at home (Boxing day) and Newcastle away Sunday.

News - injury blow for Arbeloa (out with hamstring injury) However good news Skrtel is expected to be back.

Carra will most likely fit in at right back or Darby may be given some playing time. ( could both Insua and Darby feature?)

Pre match Bolton - Sammy Lee

YNWA

that's annoying about arbeloa. degen apparently doesn't exist. carra to right back and sami in alongside agger will have to do today. i wouldn't object to seeing insua at left back again though.

torres rumoured to be on the bench. great if true and so long as we're not rushing him back again.

[The Vulcan]

Busy next few days... Bolton at home (Boxing day) and Newcastle away Sunday.

News - injury blow for Arbeloa (out with hamstring injury) However good news Skrtel is expected to be back.

Carra will most likely fit in at right back or Darby may be given some playing time. ( could both Insua and Darby feature?)

Pre match Bolton - Sammy Lee

YNWA

that's annoying about arbeloa. degen apparently doesn't exist. carra to right back and sami in alongside agger will have to do today. i wouldn't object to seeing insua at left back again though.

torres rumoured to be on the bench. great if true and so long as we're not rushing him back again.

Tough one this. Despite being at home. Only good thing is Chelsea kick off first so we''ll know where we stand. Seemingly Skrtel back in training but not ready yet. Mascherano recovered and a possible starter

Edited December 26, 2008 by The Vulcan

[StevieH]

Tough one this. Despite being at home. Only good thing is Chelsea kick off first so we''ll know where we stand. Seemingly Skrtel back in training but not ready yet. Mascherano recovered and a possible starter

reina

carra sami agger insua

mascherano alonso

kuyt gerrard riera

keane

will do for me. bolton will have elmander and davies up top so sami's aerial ability will be valuable.

[bkkjames]

Stevie, I think I just saw something that said if you guys win your next two, it will be your highest point total in 19 years? Amazing if true.

[StevieH]

at that stage of the season? it's quite possible, though 2001/02 we had a good season and finished second. under rafa we do tend to be stronger in the second half of the season so hopefully that'll remain true this time out.

[bkkjames]

at that stage of the season? it's quite possible, though 2001/02 we had a good season and finished second. under rafa we do tend to be stronger in the second half of the season so hopefully that'll remain true this time out.

haha sorry, i thought it meant that it was your highest point total for the year!!

[StevieH]

oh right, calendar year? yeah i can imagine that being about right. we had a better december to may last season than anyone else did, you lot and chelsea included, and we're top now. so yeah it'd make sense.