Language Related Thought Deficits/abilities?

[jamman]

I came accross an article about the Amazon trible the Piraha on www.newscientist.com, and googled the word and came accross this article

http://www.jcrows.com/withoutnumbers.html

which suggests that the language we use will either restrict or allow for certain thoughts. For instance the Piraha have no concept whatsover of numbers, and no amount of training will teach them any sense of numbers.

So what limits or special abilities are there within the Thai language? In what ways is your native language better or less able to deal with certain concepts?

[chippie]

I do miss the colourfullness of the English language, using similes and euphemism's and the such, especially in humour. I speak thai reasonably well and have tried to use sayings and comparisons in Thai but it is just not the same.

What could be said to a native English speaker and conjour up an image in the mind just doesn't seem to work here, maybe thats because I don't speak well enough or maybe our mind sets are different.

It is nice to make someone laugh with a few words, which I can do with my girlfriend but then she is quite westernised.

[jamman]

Here is another link about the Piraha with lots of links http://www.languagehat.com/archives/001506.php

And a quote:

"What these experiments show, according to Gordon, is how having the right linguistic resources can carve out one's reality. "Whorf says that language divides the world into different categories," Gordon said. "Whether one language chooses to distinguish one thing versus another affects how an individual perceives reality." "

And another quote (has this ever happened to you in Thailand?):

"The Piraha view language as a defining characteristic of group identity in a strong sense– you speak the language of your group . . . . Americans in their opinion are identified partially by their ability to speak other languages (since the only Americans they know are the only people they know that speak more than one language). Even so, it is difficult for them to grasp the fact that I can speak their language. They will often have conversations about me in front of me and then look astounded when I enter into the conversation – even after all the years that I have worked there. When we go to villages that we haven’t worked in much (i.e. other Piraha villages), they literally look at us with their mouths open in disbelief when we address them in Piraha. They eventually answer us, but the experience is clearly unsettling for them. (Everett, personal communication)"

I have heard that the English language is superior to all languages for nuance. There are many different words meaning almost, but not exactly, the same thing. And the literate also avail of metaphor and irony and allusion and alliteration. English, used poetically, is incredibly precise and rich.

Thais don't do irony, nor metaphor, and I've yet to meet a Thai who has a strong grasp on if statements. If is a tricky word for Thais. If this, then that.

I'm told that the French have little feeling for the sounds of words, and so french songs may rhyme and have meaningul lyrics, but they pay little heed to the taste and feeling and power of the sound of the word. In English you have so many words to choose from, you can always avail of alliteration and choose choice choppy consonants or select liquid and loose sounds.

I've been told that the Thai language is quite simplistic and lacks nuance. There are not as many shades of words. I don't speak Thai, and I know many on this board speak several languages. What examples are there of lack of nuance or greater nuance in Thai compared to other languages?

Edited March 19, 2006 by jamman

[steveromagnino]

I have heard that the English language is superior to all languages for nuance. There are many different words meaning almost, but not exactly, the same thing. And the literate also avail of metaphor and irony and allusion and alliteration. English, used poetically, is incredibly precise and rich.

Thais don't do irony, nor metaphor, and I've yet to meet a Thai who has a strong grasp on if statements. If is a tricky word for Thais. If this, then that.

I've been told that the Thai language is quite simplistic and lacks nuance. There are not as many shades of words. I don't speak Thai, and I know many on this board speak several languages. What examples are there of lack of nuance or greater nuance in Thai compared to other languages?

I would kind of disagree about the superiority of english for nuance; especially given that most people speaking english use a fraction of the words available. I would say that English CAN be an outstandingly beautiful evocative language as the vast volume of literature reflects.

But for the most part, it is a precise language, often used in a way that lacks the friendliness, warmness and emotion of languages such as Thai and Spanish.

Thais do irony, metaphor and if then statements. Perhaps less on the sarcasm front than english (who are particularly sarcastic as english speakers). And then for brevity and one liners, Thais are definitely less than a well spoken english person (the best of whom seem to only ever need 2-5 words to get their point across in a usually cutting and funny way. As for alliteration, assonance, I know they exist in Thai (and are used heavily in Thai poetry); it isn't like english is the only one with these.

In terms of emotions, I often resort to Thai to explain emotions, because there are simply more nuances and words available to do so. And I know I speek/right english gud enuff to top my country in one year's set of national exams, so I can't be that bad.

For anything precise, english is infinitely better, because Thai seems at least to me to be a fairly emotional/relationship based language; english has those aspects but also has a very high degree of precision available as well. Thai is very good in being able to say something in a very soft way to avoid confrontation, that english may not always lend itself so well for.

It language guides the way we think, then it is no surprise to me that many Thais are inprecise and ambiguous; the language lends itself to that.

I think your comparison of Thai to english also needs to take into account that the english speakers you mix with may be of greater education than the Thai speakers you mix with. Comparing like for like (and my bosses are educated in UK so are very good english speakers) they choose to speak english for the precise stuff, and Thai for the fun stuff/family stuff/emotional stuff.

Anyway, knowing more than 1 language always helps; there are concepts/things of importance in every language worth knowing.

[naka]

Ok, so why do the Thai Police do a reconstruction of the crime ?

I understand it has something to do with the Thai language shortcomings,

or perhaps it is literacy levels.

English has 1/2 a million words, French is second with 200k, Thai ?.

Naka.

Edited March 20, 2006 by naka

[GuestHouse]

This should come as no surprise to anyone who has learned a language. During the initial stages of learning we learn to express our selves in the superlatives. Good/Bad, Fantastic/Awfull etc. You can hear this in the conversation of people with very little common langauge.

Which brings an interesting point.

How does this impact relationships where neither has learned the other's language?

[Neeranam]

........As for alliteration, assonance, I know they exist in Thai (and are used heavily in Thai poetry); it isn't like english is the only one with these................

ช้าช้าได้พร้าเล่มงาม meaning to take ones time to do something well.

Rhythm and rhyme also plays an important role in Thai poetry than in English.

Many great peots have had to have a knowledge of Pali and Sanskrit.

The 'Ultimate Dream' by HM the King is a wonderful example.

Interesting how different languages are better for certain things.

I'd say Urdu is the most beautiful poetic language.

I often use Thai to show feelings - all the jai words, for example, "greng jai", "noi jai".

Some just can't be translated into English.

Here's that great song/poem:-

ขอฝันใฝ่ในฝันอันเหลือเชื่อ

ขอสู่ศึกทุกเมื่อไม่หวั่นไหว

ขอทนทุกข์รุกโรมโหมกายใจ

ขอฝ่าฟันผองภัยด้วยใจทะนง

จะแน่วแน่แก้ไขในสิ่งผิด

จะรักชาติจนชีวิตเป็นผุยผง

จะยอมตายหมายให้เกียรติดำรง

จะปิดทองหลังองค์พระปฏิมา

ไม่ท้อถอยคอยสร้างสิ่งที่ควร

ไม่เรรวนพะว้าพะวังคิดกังขา

ไม่เคืองแค้นน้อยใจในโชคชะตา

ไม่เสียหายชีวาถ้าสิ้นไป

นี่คือปณิธานที่หาญมุ่ง

หมายผดุงยุติธรรม์อันสดใส

ถึงทนทุกข์ทรมานนานเท่าใด

ยังมั่นใจรักชาติองอาจครัน

โลกมนุษย์ย่อมจะดีกว่านี้แน่

เพราะมีผู้ไม่ยอมแพ้แม้ถูกหยัน

คงยืนหยัดสู้ไปใฝ่ประจัญ

ยอมอาสัญก็เพราะปองเทิดผองไทย

[juggler]

This topic goes way over my head, but thanks for that poem neeranam, when I have printed it out I will see if my girlfriend will yom rap and help.

BTW I have reflected and now believe I am virtually unable to speak Thai

yom pair yom pair!

PS If you dont mind my asking, did you actually write that out in Thai on keyboard? and how long have you been living here?

[Neeranam]

Juggler,

You'll never forget that word, "yom rap".

You have not been defeated.

"Victory is won not in miles but in inches. Win a little now, hold your ground & later win a little more." - Louis L’Amour

Today, I will accept my progress.(you can maybe say this in Thai now!) There are many rewards already.

I didn't write that out on a Thai keyboard - it would have taken me about half an hour. I'm just learning to type Thai. I've been here since '93.

[Stephen Cleary]

I have heard that the English language is superior to all languages for nuance. There are many different words meaning almost, but not exactly, the same thing. And the literate also avail of metaphor and irony and allusion and alliteration. English, used poetically, is incredibly precise and rich.

Thais don't do irony, nor metaphor, and I've yet to meet a Thai who has a strong grasp on if statements. If is a tricky word for Thais. If this, then that.

I've been told that the Thai language is quite simplistic and lacks nuance. There are not as many shades of words. I don't speak Thai, and I know many on this board speak several languages. What examples are there of lack of nuance or greater nuance in Thai compared to other languages?

I would kind of disagree about the superiority of english for nuance; especially given that most people speaking english use a fraction of the words available. I would say that English CAN be an outstandingly beautiful evocative language as the vast volume of literature reflects.

But for the most part, it is a precise language, often used in a way that lacks the friendliness, warmness and emotion of languages such as Thai and Spanish.

Thais do irony, metaphor and if then statements. Perhaps less on the sarcasm front than english (who are particularly sarcastic as english speakers). And then for brevity and one liners, Thais are definitely less than a well spoken english person (the best of whom seem to only ever need 2-5 words to get their point across in a usually cutting and funny way. As for alliteration, assonance, I know they exist in Thai (and are used heavily in Thai poetry); it isn't like english is the only one with these.

In terms of emotions, I often resort to Thai to explain emotions, because there are simply more nuances and words available to do so. And I know I speek/right english gud enuff to top my country in one year's set of national exams, so I can't be that bad.

For anything precise, english is infinitely better, because Thai seems at least to me to be a fairly emotional/relationship based language; english has those aspects but also has a very high degree of precision available as well. Thai is very good in being able to say something in a very soft way to avoid confrontation, that english may not always lend itself so well for.

It language guides the way we think, then it is no surprise to me that many Thais are inprecise and ambiguous; the language lends itself to that.

I think your comparison of Thai to english also needs to take into account that the english speakers you mix with may be of greater education than the Thai speakers you mix with. Comparing like for like (and my bosses are educated in UK so are very good english speakers) they choose to speak english for the precise stuff, and Thai for the fun stuff/family stuff/emotional stuff.

Anyway, knowing more than 1 language always helps; there are concepts/things of importance in every language worth knowing.

The more study you put into a language the more you realize just how little you know.

In spoken conversational form, Thai is pretty basic.

Written Thai however, is a completly different kettle of fish. Steve here commented that an English native speaker only uses a fraction of the available English vocabulary. In fact, he only knows a fraction of the English vocabulary (1.2m words)

Thai language is exactly the same as English, there are a multitude of synonyms in Thai.

Unless the foreigner has actually put a decent amount of study time into Thai, he guesses along the same derogatory lines as a lotta members here at TV, that Thais are pretty shallow and ask for advice on 'how to find stimulating conversation'!!

Don't forget that Thai language has its origins in several other languages. Thai vocabulary includes words of Pali (especially), and Chinese etc.... Then Thai also has it's 'Ratchasap' (Royal language) which is almost another language completely)

Written Thai is also very complex in regards to structure, tenses and vocabulary. Pick up a novel 100 years old and unless you are an educated Thai, most Thais couldn't even read it!

Written Thai is a simplified form of Khmer. Pick up a copy of your Guiness Book of Records and you'll read that Khmer has the biggest alphabet in the world (Thai is second).

Written English has a lot of irregularities:

example 'oo' Blood, Food, Door, Foot

You dont find such incompetance in Thai. Written Thai is far more perfect in form than English.

[Neeranam]

I agree that written Thai is more perfect than English.

Also written Thai has a lot of similarities with written Hindi/Sangskrit(which is a wonderful language - the world's oldest).

I can read Hindi and knew what David Beckham's arm tatoo said, also my wife managed to decipher it because of some similarities in lettering.

[Stephen Cleary]

I agree that written Thai is more perfect than English.

Also written Thai has a lot of similarities with written Hindi/Sangskrit(which is a wonderful language - the world's oldest).

I can read Hindi and knew what David Beckham's arm tatoo said, also my wife managed to decipher it because of some similarities in lettering.

Not only is Sangskrit the world's oldest written language it is also said to be the most perfect, with no irregularities at all.

I went out with a newcomer in town yesterday evening who is currently learning Thai. We got into a chat about the Thai language. He said "You know, there are two ways of how to say 'eat' in Thai", i replied "You are wrong, there are plenty of ways of how to say 'eat' in Thai". It was quite obvious that he thought the Thai language was pretty darned basic and that within a year or two he was gonna master it!! Geez...... i have been learning the Thai language for 15 darned years!

Here is a rundown of how to say the verb 'eat' in Thai:

'chan' (used only for monks)

sawery (ratchasap / royal language)

'rap-prathan'(formal)

'than' (polite)

'kin' (informal)

'mum' (to eat with ones fingers)

'deak' (slang, impolite)

'yat' (slang, very impolite)

etc.......

And you thought Thai was a basic language?

Edited March 21, 2006 by stevesuphan

[astral]

I have found Thai to be a very basic language, even lacking some words.

For example there is no real word for ice, it is "hard water". How simplistic can you get.

The almost complete lack of grammar is a real joy, when compared to trying to learn the romance languages.

Sarcasm is totally wasted on a Thai.............

In comparison I note the way that Malaysia has been trying to develop and enhance its language over the last 10-15 years.

[steveromagnino]

I have found Thai to be a very basic language, even lacking some words.

For example there is no real word for ice, it is "hard water". How simplistic can you get.

The almost complete lack of grammar is a real joy, when compared to trying to learn the romance languages.

Sarcasm is totally wasted on a Thai.............

In comparison I note the way that Malaysia has been trying to develop and enhance its language over the last 10-15 years.

Hmmmm. I am no expert in Thai, but I LIKE the fact that Thai tends to be a construction language...hence if there is a syllable meaning hard, and another meaning water, that I now can easily remember and know the word 'ice'. What do you mean there is no real word for ice? num kaeng = ice?!

Sort of like english, where I say the word hot, and then I say the word sour and then I say the word prawn, and then I say the word soup = hot and sour soup.

Or maybe we need to talk about how similar the construction of the 2 languages are for boats...let's see sailing boat, row boat, speed boat etc - all exactly the same method. Being so widely spoken, english is certainly developing quickly and is a language adept at adding concepts and ideas from other languages...however if being 'too simple' is the guide for a language being not that good, then english is certainly great; if I did not learn it as a child, I think I would really struggle to learn it as an adult with all the exceptions, oddities and so on.

I am not sure how well you speak Thai Astral, but unless you are english (which means you have like the best command of sarcasm of anyone ) then I think you'll find many Thais get sarcasm, and many do use it. Garn brachot is like sarcasm. However because it is also important that everyone gets along, the more aggressive argumentative put downs are used quite a bit less here on others; however for situations and public figures sarcasm is used. Frequently.

It was suggested by someone that I read the Ramakian or the story of Phra Apaimanee before commenting on discussion with Thai people and my implied knowledge of the language in another thread. I've read bits of both (in Thai) and I can honestly say that if it is so simple, then I must be rather stupid as there seems to be an aweful lot that I do not know.

Listening to a good speaker in Thai, I can understand, but there is no way I could say the same thing as eloquently. I CAN be far more eloquent in english than in Thai, but I consider that to be a skill I was fortunate to develop rather than one that most english speakers actually have. Sadly it didn't translate into superior writing skills