Recommendation Of A Book/course To Learn Thai

[Longbow212]

Hi All,

I am currently at advanced intermediate stage of learning Thai but likely have lots of holes in my knowledge having not studied consistently. The best thing I found by far was pimsleur, unfortunately they only stopped at level 1. I also tried Highspeed Thai but was extremely disappointed, very unclear as to where to start and what to access in the files given. All in all the quality of resources for learning Thai compared to other languages looks very poor, especially when I look what some of the texts available from Cambridge for learners of English.

I recently bought Benjawan Poomsan Becker's Intermediate Thai, it looks very comprehensive but very dry and uninspiring, better suited to those that like learning by rote I think.

I would really appreciate it if anyone can recommend a learning resource pack that is interactive and engaging as well as put together in a way that benefits learning of a second language.

Thanks

[uhuh]

to produce what OP is looking for, 2 things are required:

1. money - there are tons of money being made by teaching English, so it pays to produce good teaching materials. Only in the nineties good teaching materials were developed for German, French, Spanish, Italian.

For Chinese, there used to be one course by missionaries which was not widely known, of similar quality as Becker's books. The rest was incredibly bad (just like the stuff for Thai). Things have changed regarding Chinese - for Thai just wait until Thailand will be an economic power house. Then everybody will want to learn Thai and it pays to produce teaching material.

2. an independent brain. To teach a language, you have to be able to analyse it's structure. Analytical thinking is not favored in Thailand. You then have to understand that your student wants to learn how real people speak, not how a 60 year-old school teacher think people should speak (descriptive versus normative linguistics). Hierarchical, authoritarian cultures like China or Thailand pay too much respect to traditions and look down on "the man in the street", whereas Americans for decades have had no qualms about teaching how they actually speak English.

So, for lack of money and brain, what you are looking for does not exist.

[leosmith]

Analytical thinking is not favored in Thailand.

What a load of crap.

[SteeleJoe]

Analytical thinking is not favored in Thailand.

What a load of crap.

I'd have to say, it's not.

And this is an opinion shared by a huge number of scholars and social scientists et al - THAIS. Moreover, I have discussed this very thing with dozens of Thai people over the last 20+ years and have found hearty agreement from virtually all of them.

Even the Thai government - known for (not unlike most governments) putting a positive spin on all things Thai- has released studies or statements and such highlighting this very thing as a problem to be addressed.

[SteeleJoe]

Literally the first thing I saw when I googled...

http://www.mcot.net/site/content?id=50ebf9f4150ba0694300014c#.UYnkh2saySM

[CaptHaddock]

2. an independent brain. To teach a language, you have to be able to analyse it's structure. Analytical thinking is not favored in Thailand. You then have to understand that your student wants to learn how real people speak, not how a 60 year-old school teacher think people should speak (descriptive versus normative linguistics). Hierarchical, authoritarian cultures like China or Thailand pay too much respect to traditions and look down on "the man in the street", whereas Americans for decades have had no qualms about teaching how they actually speak English.

Perhaps you will be able to acquire an independent, analytical brain of your own one day. The US National Foreign Language Center estimates that 82% of Americans are monolingual and is the only developed country where study of a foreign language is optional. By contrast, to take just one example, there are more students of English in China than there are Brits.

[AnotherOneAmerican]

Thai Reference Grammar - The Structure of Spoken Thai

by James Higbie & Snea Thinsan

Orchid Press

The title is horrendous and very off-putting, but the content is excellent.

Contains both transliterated and Thai script.

Not for the beginner.

[OldChinaHam]

Does anyone happen to know of a Thai flashcard database with about 5000 of the most frequently used words? Most frequently used word counts vary according to who is doing the counting. But a first year language course should cover about 3000 words, I had thought.

For language learning other than Thai, such flashcard databases are available without cost in many cases.

Does anyone here know where the Thai Anki files can be found, or have alternative suggestions?

[CaptHaddock]

Does anyone happen to know of a Thai flashcard database with about 5000 of the most frequently used words? Most frequently used word counts vary according to who is doing the counting. But a first year language course should cover about 3000 words, I had thought.

For language learning other than Thai, such flashcard databases are available without cost in many cases.

Does anyone here know where the Thai Anki files can be found, or have alternative suggestions?

You should use Anki and build your own file from words that you encounter during your study, such as from texts, books, conversations, listening exercises, etc. If you simply try to memorize a list of words which you have never experienced in context, your success rate will be very low. In addition, you won't know the appropriate context or the correct usage whether spoken, written, govt, poetical, etc.

I might mention that the current version of Anki, 2.08, is unuseable for Thai because it does not support the ฉ character. If you can find version 1.2.8, that will work.

[OldChinaHam]

Captain,

Thank you very much for the advice. What you say is true if my experience with learning Mandarin is any guide. You are correct also that the very work that it requires to produce one's own flashcards, on paper or on computer, is sometimes almost enough to completely memorize what one was trying to learn in the first place.

One last question if I may: If the new version of Anki will not support all characters, then what about other flashcard software? I have never really used computer file systems for flashcards, but just relied on paper and pen or pencil.

[starrdog]

Does anyone here know where the Thai Anki files can be found, or have alternative suggestions?

https://ankiweb.net/shared/decks/thai

I might mention that the current version of Anki, 2.08, is unuseable for Thai because it does not support the ฉ character.

I use anki 2.08 and the ฉ character shows up in my flashcards.

[CaptHaddock]

Does anyone here know where the Thai Anki files can be found, or have alternative suggestions?

https://ankiweb.net/shared/decks/thai

I might mention that the current version of Anki, 2.08, is unuseable for Thai because it does not support the ฉ character.

I use anki 2.08 and the ฉ character shows up in my flashcards.

Try typing the ฉ character into Anki. Doesn't work. The character may indeed appear on a card that has been imported into Anki, but the fact that you can't type the character makes Anki 2 for Thai unuseable.

[CaptHaddock]

Captain,

Thank you very much for the advice. What you say is true if my experience with learning Mandarin is any guide. You are correct also that the very work that it requires to produce one's own flashcards, on paper or on computer, is sometimes almost enough to completely memorize what one was trying to learn in the first place.

One last question if I may: If the new version of Anki will not support all characters, then what about other flashcard software? I have never really used computer file systems for flashcards, but just relied on paper and pen or pencil.

I only tried one other flashcard system based on the Leitner system for scheduling trials. I don't remember the name, but it had a bug that prevented the basic algorithm from working correctly and they wouldn't fix the bug.

Anki is the best flashcard program, as far as I know. Just get version 1.2.8 and it will work fine. If you contact the developer and ask for a copy until the ฉ bug is fixed, he might supply a copy of 1.2.8. If not, pm me.

You can use paper and pencil flashcards, also. Just look up the Leitner method and use that to reschedule cards. Will be more efficient.

Edited May 12, 2013 by CaptHaddock

[starrdog]

Try typing the ฉ character into Anki. Doesn't work. The character may indeed appear on a card that has been imported into Anki, but the fact that you can't type the character makes Anki 2 for Thai unuseable.

I see you're right that typing ฉ doesn't work, though a paste is a simple enough workaround. So I wouldn't call it unusable, but certainly more of a pain than it should be.

[CaptHaddock]

Try typing the ฉ character into Anki. Doesn't work. The character may indeed appear on a card that has been imported into Anki, but the fact that you can't type the character makes Anki 2 for Thai unuseable.

I see you're right that typing ฉ doesn't work, though a paste is a simple enough workaround. So I wouldn't call it unusable, but certainly more of a pain than it should be.

Cutting and pasting the character would enable you to add new cards to your Anki deck. However, when reviewing cards using the English prompt, the most effective way is to type the Thai word or phrase, rather than just saying the word. This lets Anki check your Thai spelling. If you misspell or misstype the Thai word, Anki will show your error in red. Using Anki to check typed responses is a boon because spelling in Thai is fairly difficult, unlike, say, Italian. Since Anki 2 will not accept the ฉ character when typed, it is unuseable, in my opinion.

But, as I mentioned earlier, version 1.2.8 continues to work just fine.

[OldChinaHam]

Thank you this information, It will be helpful in narrowing down the software choices. I have found that even if one has been speaking a "foreign" language for some years, or decades, it is important to continue with adding to one's vocabulary. The problem is that you hear these new words too infrequently, day to day. With a good computer program that can statistically track which words you have trouble with, and then feed them up at the optimum time, I had thought this might be the best way to continue making progress in Mandarin while also learning Thai from the beginner's level.

Probably the previous Anki versions can be found easily but I have not yet searched.

Thank you for this good information.

[OldChinaHam]

Yes! Captain,

Speaking of Thai typing, I now have the Chinese keys on my Laptop I bought from ASUS in Taiwan. This is a great machine, but I now have ZhuYinFuHao, it looks like, as well as the English QWERTY character keyboard. Now my question is, I also have another larger keyboard, also bought in Taiwan from Logitech with "Chinese" character keys, which I use for ease in everyday typing of English. What should I do if I want to Type Thai, long term? Do I just buy a third keyboard in Thai and use another USB port to plug it in?

In this case I would have two external keyboards attached to the same ASUS laptop.

Next question would be, I sometimes use the WP program NJSTAR which is great for learners of Korean, Japanese, and Chinese, both simp and traditional. Are there any good Thai typing learning software that you might know of? I have seen this discussed on the TV forums from time to time but the discussion never really starts to get going before it stops.

Sorry to put the different questions together here but I did not want to start a new topic without first checking to see if this is already available and would thus be redundant.

TKS

(And thank you for the Anki V 1.2.8 as well!)

[CaptHaddock]

Yes! Captain,

Speaking of Thai typing, I now have the Chinese keys on my Laptop I bought from ASUS in Taiwan. This is a great machine, but I now have ZhuYinFuHao, it looks like, as well as the English QWERTY character keyboard. Now my question is, I also have another larger keyboard, also bought in Taiwan from Logitech with "Chinese" character keys, which I use for ease in everyday typing of English. What should I do if I want to Type Thai, long term? Do I just buy a third keyboard in Thai and use another USB port to plug it in?

In this case I would have two external keyboards attached to the same ASUS laptop.

Next question would be, I sometimes use the WP program NJSTAR which is great for learners of Korean, Japanese, and Chinese, both simp and traditional. Are there any good Thai typing learning software that you might know of? I have seen this discussed on the TV forums from time to time but the discussion never really starts to get going before it stops.

Sorry to put the different questions together here but I did not want to start a new topic without first checking to see if this is already available and would thus be redundant.

TKS

(And thank you for the Anki V 1.2.8 as well!)

I would recommend an additional Thai keyboard until you learn the key locations. I used to use a second Thai keyboard with my laptop, but I no longer do because my fingers know the key locations. However, the other option is to buy a set of plastic keytop labels that show both Thai and Latin characters. You just stick them on. They work, but over time the printing wears off. Search Thai keyboard on amazon.com to find. Must be available locally as well.

Instead of keeping all keyboards attached at once, why don't you just swap them out for the one you need at the moment? Or do you find yourself typing Chinese and Thai in the same document?

There are Thai typing programs available, but I never used them. I learned to type Thai just by typing Thai word responses in Anki and being careful always to use the correct finger for each key, i.e. the finger you use when typing English correctly. Then I just type Thai documents using Word.

Sounds like you are acquiring an impressive range of language skills. How many Chinese characters do you know?

[kriswillems]

If flashcards are just used to remember words, I also doubt flashcards really work. Of course, after enough practise you'll be able to remember those individual words, but what are you going to do with this knowledge? And how long will you remember it?

I think it not very useful to study the 3000 most used words in Thai if you've no context of how they are used.

Humans tend to make links between different kinds of knowledge/facts and I think we should use that advantage, by studying full sentences or patterns, maybe even within the context of a conversation, rather than lists of individual words.

Edited May 13, 2013 by kriswillems

[CaptHaddock]

If flashcards are just used to remember words, I also doubt flashcards really work. Of course, after enough practise you'll be able to remember those individual words, but what are you going to do with this knowledge? And how long will you remember it?

I think it not very useful to study the 3000 most used words in Thai if you've no context of how they are used.

Humans tend to make links between different kinds of knowledge/facts and I think we should use that advantage, by studying full sentences or patterns, maybe even within the context of a conversation, rather than lists of individual words.

I happen to be a fan of memorization in general and flashcards for language learning in particular. (How else will you learn to spell Thai correctly even with a private tutor?) However, the fact of the matter is that using or avoiding flashcards is not a very important factor in success at second language acquisition. Frankly, it's not worth the time to dispute about flashcards.

It's far more important to study with qualified teachers in a program with a well-designed curriculum that has demonstrated success at helping students achieve genuine fluency in the language. There are few schools in Thailand that meet that standard. And probably none of the books and tapes methods.

[stevehaigh]

Thai Reference Grammar - The Structure of Spoken Thai

by James Higbie & Snea Thinsan

Orchid Press

The title is horrendous and very off-putting, but the content is excellent.

Contains both transliterated and Thai script.

Not for the beginner.

i was going to say this too. best thai book by far IMHO. the only minor grip i have (as i remember, i can't find the book at the moment) is they should have put the thai text before transliteration so you can cover up the transliteration and force yourself to read the thai.

Edited May 14, 2013 by stevehaigh

[OldChinaHam]

"Thai Reference Grammar - The Structure of Spoken Thai"

If you cannot find it at present, then is it possible that parts of the book may be shared?

[desi]

Two of my favourite study books are Thai Reference Grammar and Essential Thai (both by James Higbie).

Most Thai language books can be bought from DCO (they ship from within Thailand or outside).

Here's Thai Reference Grammar

After being off the market for years, Essential Thai has been revamped.

[PoorSucker]

Several posts promoting own business and responses removed.

[AnotherOneAmerican]

Thai Reference Grammar - The Structure of Spoken Thai

by James Higbie & Snea Thinsan

Orchid Press

The title is horrendous and very off-putting, but the content is excellent.

Contains both transliterated and Thai script.

Not for the beginner.

i was going to say this too. best thai book by far IMHO. the only minor grip i have (as i remember, i can't find the book at the moment) is they should have put the thai text before transliteration so you can cover up the transliteration and force yourself to read the thai.

Ask in the copy shop at CMU.

On sale in the big book shop half way between moat and Pantrip Plaza, South side.

Edited May 15, 2013 by AnotherOneAmerican

[metisdead]

An off topic post has been removed, this topic is about learning Thai, it is not about learning Mandarin, Korean or Japanese.

[uhuh]

Thai Reference Grammar - The Structure of Spoken Thai

by James Higbie & Snea Thinsan

Orchid Press

The title is horrendous and very off-putting, but the content is excellent.

Contains both transliterated and Thai script.

Not for the beginner.

i was going to say this too. best thai book by far IMHO. the only minor grip i have (as i remember, i can't find the book at the moment) is they should have put the thai text before transliteration so you can cover up the transliteration and force yourself to read the thai.

Ask in the copy shop at CMU.

On sale in the big book shop half way between moat and Pantrip Plaza, South side.

what is moat?

[OldChinaHam]

Well I suppose, after one has purchased and connected his/her Thai keyboard, then one just next needs to choose a good Thai text editor.

I suppose one could choose Emacs, or Sontana. This is certainly a good way to practice and learn Thai characters and reading and writing skills.

But if not using Emacs, and one is using Windows, then what are the best text editors for Thai on the Win platform. (If one does NOT have WinOffice, WinWord)?

Think of fee editors, as in open and free beer.

[Greeen]

Thai Reference Grammar - The Structure of Spoken Thai

by James Higbie & Snea Thinsan

Orchid Press

The title is horrendous and very off-putting, but the content is excellent.

Contains both transliterated and Thai script.

Not for the beginner.

i was going to say this too. best thai book by far IMHO. the only minor grip i have (as i remember, i can't find the book at the moment) is they should have put the thai text before transliteration so you can cover up the transliteration and force yourself to read the thai.

Ask in the copy shop at CMU.

On sale in the big book shop half way between moat and Pantrip Plaza, South side.

Where exactly is the copy shop located at CMU?

[OldChinaHam]

Regarding the original posters question - "recommendation of a book":

Reading through the first pages of "Thai: An Essential Grammar", I noticed that the author David Smyth provides his thoughts on this.

Maybe it might be helpful to some to show to paragraphs which address this subject here:

"Learning Thai

A number of readily available Thai courses can be used in conjunction

with this grammar. The Linguaphone Thai Course (1984) by Manas

Chitakasem and David Smyth, and Teach Yourself Thai (1995) by David

Smyth, both equip the learner with the necessary grammar and vocabulary

to deal with a range of everyday situations and provide a structured

introduction to the script; both works include cassettes/CDs.

Of earlier materials, Spoken Thai (1945–8) by Mary Haas and Heng

Subhanka, although dated in places, is an extremely solid work, which

offers many valuable insights into the language. Foundations of Thai

(1968) by Edward Anthony et al., and Thai Basic Course (1970) by

Warren G. Yates and Absorn Tryon likewise provide very thorough introductions

to the language with comprehensive grammar notes. The AUA

Language Center Thai Course (1967), prepared by J. Marvin Brown, is

designed for classroom use with a native speaker, rather than self-tuition,

but other works produced by AUA, including Brown’s AUA Language

Center Thai Course: Reading and Writing (1979), and Adrian Palmer’s

imaginative dialogue books, Small Talk (1974) and Getting Help with

Your Thai (1977) are well worth consulting. Fundamentals of the Thai

Language (1957) by Stuart Campbell and Chuan Shaweewongse (although

in the most recent reprint, authorship is now attributed to ‘the editors

of Marketing Media Associates Co., Ltd.’), has long provided the Bangkok

Introduction 2

expatriate with a sound introduction to the language, despite its traditional

grammar-translation approach.

Two substantial books on Thai grammar addressed to English speakers

are Thai Reference Grammar (1964) by Richard Noss and Teaching of

Thai Grammar (1982) by William Kuo. Noss’s book, based on his doctoral

thesis, is a detailed and insightful descriptive grammar that no serious

student of Thai can fail to benefit from; however, it is addressed to those

with a background in linguistics, and its use of linguistic terminology is

at best bewildering and at times simply intimidating for the majority of

beginners. Kuo’s book, by contrast, is a much more down-to-earth workbook

for practising key structures, but it does require a prior knowledge

of Thai script.

Dictionaries

The most useful dictionary for the learner is Thai-English Student’s

Dictionary (1964) compiled by Mary Haas. Each Thai script entry is

followed by a phonemic transcription and English gloss. A particularly

useful feature for the learner is that for every noun the appropriate classifier

is indicated; many of the entries also include well-chosen examples

of everyday usage. George B. McFarland’s Thai-English Dictionary (1944),

although dated, remains a valuable reference work for the more advanced

student of Thai, for it contains many words of Sanskrit origin and extensive

listings of flora and fauna not found in the Haas volume. Two

impressive recent works, which do not include pronunciation guides, but

do reflect more up-to-date usage, are Domnern and Sathienpong’s Thai-

English Dictionary (1994) and Thianchai Iamwaramet’s A New Thai

Dictionary with Bilingual Explanation (1993). Robertson’s Practical

English-Thai Dictionary (1969) is an invaluable pocket-sized aid for the

beginner, which gives Thai equivalents of about 2,500 common English

words in both romanised transcription and Thai script."