Haze Spreading In Chiang Mai

[...Ken]

Hey lads, if we get much more heated I may have to pull the plug on this thread. A real shame, because it is a subject worth discussing in a calm manner.

It appears that the culture 'gap' is alive and well, but not exclusively between the Thais and Farrangs, but between the urban and the rurals as well. Rural people generally don't see the smoke as a major concern. You burn because the leaves have fell and it is dry enough to make them burn well. They know the rains are coming and the smoke will be gone soon enough. The new growth will emerge quicker and more abundantly. As I mentioned before, it has always been done ....because it works.

Consider my brothers in law, they log , hunt , farm and build. They stay in their valley and follow the seaons and the opportunities that the new season offers. Someone comes in from Chiengmai and says stop doing what you've been taught by your fathers to do, harvest less wild food, struggle more on the hillsides, deal with more snakes, etc. just because some Chiengmai folk have got smoke in their eyes.

You're the same people who have raised the price of farmland, raised the price of food and drive through their villages in your window tinted 'Benz. The boys in the bush just don't feel sorry for you.

Chiengmai has become a rather unpleasant place to live (in my opinion), but you can't stop the cars, you can't stop the development and you can't stop the influx of people........so you focus on the actions of some farmers while you reach for another pack of smokes ?

This is not directed towards Farrangs or Thais, just them damned Urbanites !

...Ken

......never met a tree I didn't want to hug.

[Ajarn]

Hey lads, if we get much more heated I may have to pull the plug on this thread. A real shame, because it is a subject worth discussing in a calm manner.

Thais and farangs should be in the same boat when it comes to 'curing' pollution.

And apparently it's not the case as the biggest polluter is reluctant to do any effort in this way. That's the point.

The fires here are contributing in a ridiculous amount of the world pollution, while some others are deliberately threatening our life. Like extinguish a fire in the garden when the house is in fire.

Of course, it can be annoying for the expat's comfort.

Incidentally, can anybody translate this into sense for me???

American/farang bashing

Edited March 12, 2006 by Ajarn

[Ajarn]

It appears that the culture 'gap' is alive and well, but not exclusively between the Thais and Farrangs, but between the urban and the rurals as well. Rural people generally don't see the smoke as a major concern. You burn because the leaves have fell and it is dry enough to make them burn well. They know the rains are coming and the smoke will be gone soon enough. The new growth will emerge quicker and more abundantly. As I mentioned before, it has always been done ....because it works.

Consider my brothers in law, they log , hunt , farm and build. They stay in their valley and follow the seaons and the opportunities that the new season offers. Someone comes in from Chiengmai and says stop doing what you've been taught by your fathers to do, harvest less wild food, struggle more on the hillsides, deal with more snakes, etc. just because some Chiengmai folk have got smoke in their eyes.

You're the same people who have raised the price of farmland, raised the price of food and drive through their villages in your window tinted 'Benz. The boys in the bush just don't feel sorry for you.

Chiengmai has become a rather unpleasant place to live (in my opinion), but you can't stop the cars, you can't stop the development and you can't stop the influx of people........so you focus on the actions of some farmers while you reach for another pack of smokes ?

This is not directed towards Farrangs or Thais, just them damned Urbanites !

...Ken

Wouldn't it be nice if all urbanites and all rural folks thought/acted the same...

Then, I might buy your quaint scenario of life in Thailand.

Edited March 12, 2006 by Ajarn

[mrmillersr]

This is going to be my last post on the subject. Many of you at least know how serious the problem is and aren't very happy about it. Whether you decide to move to a healthier environment is your decision. Others are either taking this all too lightly or making suggestions like get more people involved (private and public). Wishful thinking but history and time is not on your side.

Then there are others that like throwing in a quick jab now and then like Ajarn. In reference to a comment I made about Puwa's grandstanding, he was able to offer "Please follow your own good advice". If that is the best you can do, why are you even posting?

I could end by providing some other valuable information explaining why Chiang Mai is a disaster area waiting to happen but it would be too unnerving and shocking for many of you. In the end, all it would do would be to reinforce the name of "mr. bummer" I was given by the illustrious Mr. Ajarn. (Any bets he'll try one last shot in at me? Don't worry Ajarn, I'm not going to reply).

Have a nice day!

[Ajarn]

Oh, my, you have me more powerful in your mind than I deserve.

Yeah, short and sweet is how I prefer it. Only one finger typing

[roblin]

In two weeks i leave Chiang Mai. Very nice city, very nice people but this haze is awful, even worse than Bangkok. With me I take my big farang money and spend somewhere else.

So long and thanks for the fish Chiang Mai!

[jomama]

I was my wife’s birthday today, so she wanted to buy some catfish at the local market and release them. We bought five fish and proceeded to the river north of town. We found a path, and dodging broken glass, we tried not to slip on the plastic bags lying around the steep embankment. At the river’s edge we found several younger folks fishing, eating and throwing what they were finished with on the ground. The place was nasty, littered with debris. We released the fish and beat a hasty retreat.

It wasn’t all that long ago the entire area was “cleansed” by a series of floods that washed the previous plastic bags and crap downriver -- does that stuff make it all the way to Bhumiphon Dam near Tak, I wonder?

All of this will require generational change to improve. There need to be agricultural agents in the field helping to teach alternative ways of clearing land, etc. There need to be police willing to issue littering fines. And etc., and etc., and etc. Will it happen in my lifetime? No way.

For those relativists who say farangs do the same thing, or become defensive when people point such things out -- kind of reminds me of when you’re a kid and someone says something and you reply: That’s not me, that’s you -- just up the road from where we released the fish is an international school where I know they have a “Roots & Shoots” club, which is an organization started by Jane Goodall when she was in Kenya. They grow things, study and intend to be environmentally aware. On adjacent land, locals are burning plastic bags. That kind of says it all.

I remember when I was a kid and people would throw soda cans out of the windows of cars and there was litter all along the highways. Lady Bird Johnson had a campaign to “Keep America Beautiful,” and I’ll be ######*d, combined with the hippie-environmental movement, things did change. As we know today it is definitely not cool to throw trash out the window of a car in the U.S.

I say to Toxin: You want another hub and another crackdown? How about starting close to home cleaning up Chiang Mai?

But that would require real long term work, not just brainstorms and announcements.

[Ajarn]

On adjacent land, locals are burning plastic bags. That kind of says it all.

I'm not quite sure what this says for you, but for me, it is another reminder of the varying degrees of education here. Surely this scenario is not limited to one international school. I imagine that any school teaching such a program can find extremes nearby

I'm sure you'll agree that a few years ago, there were no programs on environmental awareness, bit now, slowly, there are many more people sharing their environmental awareness with others. It's just that it has a long way to go before it's as effective as Lady Bird's. To my eyes, it seems to be a lot cleaner, in terms of roadside garbage. I figure that's due to networking going on with recyclers... I remain hopeful of change

As we've learned as kids under Lady Bird's program, we can learn to care about our environment. I'm feeling sure that will happen as soon as people get their heads out of the sand.

Newbies here might get the impression that nothing ever changes here, but it does, as time shows.

It's all a matter of priorities.

[...Ken]

I will refrain from being 'folksy'.

There have been some considerable changes that have benefited the Northern Thailand environment such as the cessation of DDT use. Back in '86 there were extremely few song birds in the Chiang Dao area. My wife tells how the 'government' would come into their villages each year and spray white powder inside homes and throughout the village to control mosquitos. Since '86 I have seen a constant rebuilding of the songbird (most evident) populations until now where they are raucously thriving.

Change does take time and we learn from those around us. Your "Lady Bird's decree" was but one voice during that slow movement to environmental awareness. I also remember being told to "throw your garbage out the window....don't mess up our new '59 Chevy Impala". Times change and the Thais will change in their own time. Environmentally aware Thai teachers at the primary grades is where any change will start....not laws/punishments.

Who knows...maybe even the majority of Yanks will come to realize why their actions have lost them the respect that their nation had once earned. However, I have more faith in the Thais ability to adapt.

...Ken

[trigger]

When I lived in Banhong,Lamphun Province in the early '90s I used to watch the mountains burning during the dry season. This did not seem to produce any smoke in the villages and as Ken stated rural folk carried on their traditional life-styles. The problem is with the semi-rural who live a semi-urban lifestyle and burning leaves and garbage is just a cosmetic operation. The village shops that produce the most plastic waste just pile it up and burn it or add it to a pile on the village outskirts prior to burning.

No matter if the majority are aware of a problem and behave in a reasonable manner it can still leave a large enough minority to carry on as usual. In UK the vast majority are aware and don't throw litter, allow their dogs to foul and vandalise but the place is still a tip. Many years of do-gooder control, lack of discipline in schools and no enforcement of laws have produced a very active minority.

Being a Newbie is unimportant as this can mean just new to the forum asin my case. As stated earlier I was living in North Thailand when Pontius was still a navigator! and I have always been a people observer(nosey git!) Being idealistic and seeing others of different cultures in the same light as your fellow citizens back home just won't work. Still, you are entitled to be the captain on the bridge of the sinking ship and not join us rats who are leaving. I feel sorry for the locals who don't have the wherewithall to up sticks and move to somewhere healthier - last man out please switch the lights off!

[siam-i-am]

So if people were not to burn the grass ( and garbage come to that!!?) what would happen to it?

Ah hum.... just saying.... thats all .....

Was Darwin right, Stupid people make themselves extinct? Every day I see the very same people riding without helmets breathing in toxic fumes, trouble is they breed like rabbits then send them to university. I asked a student recently why don't you wear a helmet? The reply "fashion" silly me. Taking a little refreshment at a thatched roadside inn I was joined by two of Thailands finest they were not only wearing helmets but also sunglasses it was 7pm, they had a few sangsom and were soon in a happy mood so I asked them when they book someone for riding a m/bike without a helmet why don't they impound the bike? The reply "we would soon be like Chiang rai more people wear helmets no money for us" Do you ever book anyone for black exhaust fumes? "never" why not? "we have not been told to" Call me old fashion but untill the powers that be ride bikes and live in the city it will always be this way.

Forget burning a little grass - it's the toxic garbage bags and other crap they need to do something with. Truck it, bury it, shoot it to the moon who cares.

This is a very serious problem that has been going on for a long time. Back in 1994 it was reported there were 487,213 hospital cases reported for respiratory disease. That number increased to 704,800 in 2003. To put it into perspective, there are about 250,000 people living in the city and a total of around 1.5 million for the region. So roughly one-half of the population was so sick they had to seek medical attention in 2003 due to a respiratory illness and you know they didn't get it from the food they ate. Add up everyone else who is suffering but didn't report in for treatment, you likely have a majority of the people living in the area being affected.

What's worse is this problem is not going to go away. It was 14 years ago when they passed a Public Health Bill that imposed imprisonment up to 6 months along with a 10,000 baht fine for anyone found polluting the enviornment but this incesstant burning is still going on. Maybe if Thaksin retires to his hometown here in Chiang Mai things will improve, but I wouldn't hold my breath on it, no pun intended.

[richard10365]

I just mentioned burning in another thread in the general section and then noticed this one. I think the only way to get the thai people to stop burning is find a way to recycle what they are burning.

If they were paid for alot of what they would burn then there would probably be a lot less fires.

But there really is not much you can do with old grass and weeds.....unless someone can come up with a way to turn it into fertilizer.

[Ajarn]

I just mentioned burning in another thread in the general section and then noticed this one. I think the only way to get the thai people to stop burning is find a way to recycle what they are burning.

If they were paid for alot of what they would burn then there would probably be a lot less fires.

At least in the North, there is a pretty good system of recycling most household refuse, including plastic bags..

But there really is not much you can do with old grass and weeds.....unless someone can come up with a way to turn it into fertilizer.

Easy one. Let nature takes its natural course.Or if you're in a hurry, feed it to cattle and use their poop for fertilizer

[Johpa]

This is not directed towards Farrangs or Thais, just them damned Urbanites !

...Ken

......never met a tree I didn't want to hug.

Ken, is this my ol' pal Ken from two ways up north?!?

[...Ken]

This is not directed towards Farrangs or Thais, just them damned Urbanites !

...Ken

......never met a tree I didn't want to hug.

Ken, is this my ol' pal Ken from two ways up north?!?

Hello Johpa,

Yes, good to hear from you. I trust you and yours are well and happy.

I finally gave up on SCT after 11 years. You figure there is any life worth exploring here ?

best regards.....Ken

[Johpa]

Ken, is this my ol' pal Ken from two ways up north?!?

Hello Johpa,

Yes, good to hear from you. I trust you and yours are well and happy.

I finally gave up on SCT after 11 years. You figure there is any life worth exploring here ?

best regards.....Ken

Hey hey, great to see you here. The family is doing well and my son, now 17, speaks better Thai and Kham Maung than I. With a little luck we should be back to Chiang Mai this summer when school gets out.

Yes, much better here than SCT, with reasonable moderators. The few dinosaurs like ourselves are in the minority here, but a decent group of folks none the less. The Thailand news thread is good for keeping up to date with events around the Kingdom. And there are several threads regarding places to eat in CM for those of us who don't get into the city often.

For those of you interested, Ken has been hanging out in the countryside off and on for a very long time and has a good sense of everyday life in the rural villages. His knowledge and his opinion would complement this forum very well.

[Donnyboy]

Nice orage sun this (Thursday) morning and I can barely make out the big mountains about 5 km away.

Found this satellite photo from Nasa. The red spots are fires:

http://earthobservatory.nasa.gov/NaturalHa...p3?img_id=13381

a couple of photos taken recently from my appartment.

[Donnyboy]

try posting again.

[KhunMarco]

This is it.

I know I'm not adding anything valuable to the thread, but I just want you all to look out of your window today and ask yourself " would I live here if I had no string attach?".

This is insane, the air smells like burnt plastic and who knows what.

Too bad I realy liked the people here, but I'm forced to leave CM.

That's really depressing, I'm going to miss a lot of what it offers, but I can't put my health in danger like this.

Sorry for the guys who are forced to stay here against their will (jobs, families etc)

Hua Hin maybe? S h oo t ! I'm so depressed

[calibanjr.]

I was my wife’s birthday today, so she wanted to buy some catfish at the local market and release them. We bought five fish and proceeded to the river north of town. We found a path, and dodging broken glass, we tried not to slip on the plastic bags lying around the steep embankment. At the river’s edge we found several younger folks fishing, eating and throwing what they were finished with on the ground. The place was nasty, littered with debris. We released the fish and beat a hasty retreat.

It wasn’t all that long ago the entire area was “cleansed” by a series of floods that washed the previous plastic bags and crap downriver -- does that stuff make it all the way to Bhumiphon Dam near Tak, I wonder?

All of this will require generational change to improve. There need to be agricultural agents in the field helping to teach alternative ways of clearing land, etc. There need to be police willing to issue littering fines. And etc., and etc., and etc. Will it happen in my lifetime? No way.

For those relativists who say farangs do the same thing, or become defensive when people point such things out -- kind of reminds me of when you’re a kid and someone says something and you reply: That’s not me, that’s you -- just up the road from where we released the fish is an international school where I know they have a “Roots & Shoots” club, which is an organization started by Jane Goodall when she was in Kenya. They grow things, study and intend to be environmentally aware. On adjacent land, locals are burning plastic bags. That kind of says it all.

I remember when I was a kid and people would throw soda cans out of the windows of cars and there was litter all along the highways. Lady Bird Johnson had a campaign to “Keep America Beautiful,” and I’ll be ######*d, combined with the hippie-environmental movement, things did change. As we know today it is definitely not cool to throw trash out the window of a car in the U.S.

I say to Toxin: You want another hub and another crackdown? How about starting close to home cleaning up Chiang Mai?

But that would require real long term work, not just brainstorms and announcements.

Remember the crying Indian?

Just using littering as an example. Among the many faults with Americans (generally), littering is definitely not among them. Sounds simplistic, but I attribute it to the commercial with the Indian crying while he watched a car go by littering on his land. Wasn't around for Lady Bird's campaign, but I remember as a kid eating a candy bar or a coke and just pitching the wrapper/can wherever. It was standard practice amongst pretty much everyone then (1973ish) After that commercial, and of course the growing eco-movement at the time, littering went from being quite common to being rare and not tolerated in general. I just use that as an example that change can be brought about, maybe too optimistic.

I've been to waterfalls here and in Loei, unbelievable garbage on the paths. Scootering around I've come across beautiful little streams, then see the filth on the banks. I'd like to see what a concentrated ad campaign could do, but I'm not holding my breath.

Edited March 19, 2006 by calibanjr.

[Ajarn]

This is it.

I know I'm not adding anything valuable to the thread, but I just want you all to look out of your window today and ask yourself " would I live here if I had no string attach?".

Of course I would, and I do. Chiang Mai is my home. It's so much more than simply bad air, or a day like today, with added visible humidity to make it seem worse than it is, or maybe to show it for its truth? I don't know, but after 20 years living here full-time, I still have never had any breathing or lung problems, so outside of 2-3 months per year like this, I can easily handle it.

Much better than some folks, for sure. Bye

Edited March 19, 2006 by Ajarn

[groo]

This is it.

I know I'm not adding anything valuable to the thread, but I just want you all to look out of your window today and ask yourself " would I live here if I had no string attach?".

Of course I would, and I do. Chiang Mai is my home. It's so much more than simply bad air, or a day like today, with added visible humidity to make it seem worse than it is, or maybe to show it for its truth? I don't know, but after 20 years living here full-time, I still have never had any breathing or lung problems, so outside of 2-3 months per year like this, I can easily handle it.

Much better than some folks, for sure. Bye

LIke Ajarn, this is my home for 4 plus years now. But my sinuses have been swollen for a couple days now. I shall be here for a long time but just have to deal with the pollution until education sets in about how to reduce the burning.

[tango]

I That’s not me, that’s you -- just up the road from where we released the fish is an international school where I know they have a “Roots & Shoots” club, which is an organization started by Jane Goodall when she was in Kenya. They grow things, study and intend to be environmentally aware. On adjacent land, locals are burning plastic bags. That kind of says it all.

How about starting close to home cleaning up Chiang Mai?

If the international school you are referring to is to the East of Chiangmai their series of washing machines, near the school's Environmental show room, (used to) empty directly into the adjacent stream, and the garbage containers neatly labeled for ease in separating dorm garbage into 'plastics', 'glass', 'paper', etc while, too, very environmental in theory; nonetheless, when collected (used to) be emptied together into a common trash collector. Hmmm. Possibly someone would confirm there is no longer an environmental disconnect; that, they now do more than proverbially 'talk the talk'.

Edited March 20, 2006 by tango

[tango]

I That’s not me, that’s you -- just up the road from where we released the fish is an international school where I know they have a “Roots & Shoots” club, which is an organization started by Jane Goodall when she was in Kenya. They grow things, study and intend to be environmentally aware. On adjacent land, locals are burning plastic bags. That kind of says it all.

How about starting close to home cleaning up Chiang Mai?

If the international school you are referring to is to the East of Chiangmai their series of washing machines, adjacent the school's Environmental show room, (used to) empty directly into the adjacent stream, and the garbage containers neatly labeled for ease in separating dorm garbage into 'plastics', 'glass', 'paper', etc while, too, very environmental in theory; nonetheless, when collected (used to) be emptied together into a common trash collector. Hmmm. Possibly someone would confirm there is no longer an environmental disconnect; that, they now do more than proverbially 'talk the talk'.

[Ajarn]

I That’s not me, that’s you -- just up the road from where we released the fish is an international school where I know they have a “Roots & Shoots” club, which is an organization started by Jane Goodall when she was in Kenya. They grow things, study and intend to be environmentally aware. On adjacent land, locals are burning plastic bags. That kind of says it all.

How about starting close to home cleaning up Chiang Mai?

If the international school you are referring to is to the East of Chiangmai their series of washing machines, adjacent the school's Environmental show room, (used to) empty directly into the adjacent stream, and the garbage containers neatly labeled for ease in separating dorm garbage into 'plastics', 'glass', 'paper', etc while, too, very environmental in theory; nonetheless, when collected (used to) be emptied together into a common trash collector. Hmmm. Possibly someone would confirm there is no longer an environmental disconnect; that, they now do more than proverbially 'talk the talk'.

Why not name names, and make it a real issue, instead of throwing barbs aimed nowhere, designed to do nothing...

Edited March 20, 2006 by Ajarn

[jomama]

I That’s not me, that’s you -- just up the road from where we released the fish is an international school where I know they have a “Roots & Shoots” club, which is an organization started by Jane Goodall when she was in Kenya. They grow things, study and intend to be environmentally aware. On adjacent land, locals are burning plastic bags. That kind of says it all.

How about starting close to home cleaning up Chiang Mai?

If the international school you are referring to is to the East of Chiangmai their series of washing machines, adjacent the school's Environmental show room, (used to) empty directly into the adjacent stream, and the garbage containers neatly labeled for ease in separating dorm garbage into 'plastics', 'glass', 'paper', etc while, too, very environmental in theory; nonetheless, when collected (used to) be emptied together into a common trash collector. Hmmm. Possibly someone would confirm there is no longer an environmental disconnect; that, they now do more than proverbially 'talk the talk'.

Why not name names, and make it a real issue, instead of throwing barbs aimed nowhere, designed to do nothing...

It's not the international school to which I was referring (they are not to the east, they have no washing machines, etc., etc.).

Is it Payap University you're talking about?

[tyznd]

Of course I would, and I do. Chiang Mai is my home. It's so much more than simply bad air, or a day like today, with added visible humidity to make it seem worse than it is, or maybe to show it for its truth? I don't know, but after 20 years living here full-time, I still have never had any breathing or lung problems, so outside of 2-3 months per year like this, I can easily handle it.

Much better than some folks, for sure. Bye

Ajarn,

Didn't I recently read somewhere in the forum that you had a stroke? If you did, I wouldn't discount out that the air pollution didn't have something to do with it. Air pollution can have a detrimental effect on more than just your lungs and breathing.

[Ajarn]

Of course I would, and I do. Chiang Mai is my home. It's so much more than simply bad air, or a day like today, with added visible humidity to make it seem worse than it is, or maybe to show it for its truth? I don't know, but after 20 years living here full-time, I still have never had any breathing or lung problems, so outside of 2-3 months per year like this, I can easily handle it.

Much better than some folks, for sure. Bye

Ajarn,

Didn't I recently read somewhere in the forum that you had a stroke? If you did, I wouldn't discount out that the air pollution didn't have something to do with it. Air pollution can have a detrimental effect on more than just your lungs and breathing.

No reason to think that, but every reason to think that it was caused by, 1. my Diabetes 2. My irregular heartbeat 3. my heavy weight (now 50 kgs lighter) 4. My sedentary lifestyle

[p1p]

my heavy weight (now 50 kgs lighter)

Wow - Many, Many congratulations. I'm truly proud of you.

Now, if I could only do the same! (12 Kilos so far!)

[Ajarn]

my heavy weight (now 50 kgs lighter)

Wow - Many, Many congratulations. I'm truly proud of you.

Now, if I could only do the same! (12 Kilos so far!)

Thanks, but still 50 to go

Couldn't have done it without my pool

Congrats on your 24+ pounds so far!