Is There Any Real Benefit To Having Thai Residency?

[up-country_sinclair]

This thread is too confusing with all the conflicting information. We need a separate citizenship thread.

[Arkady]

OneAmerican

The op was asking about PR, not citizenship.

And honestly that is about the best anyone can come up with in regard to citizenship as well...allows me to buy a house so it's not as easy for my wife or girlfriend to steal it iut from under me. Allows me to do xyz in business that would othetwise be impossible.

I never read how proud people are or how this now allows them to vote and affect change in their new homeland. Never read how proud they are of the history, culture and constitution. Or how educated and polite the governing flunkies are, so lovely to deal with. Education system for the kids? How doing business is easy and a pleasure...

Wonder how many renounce their nations of birth?

Its at worst a business decision and at best a lifestyle choice.

Who cares about the stupid gates? Just totally proves my point. Besides...some of you guys never leave the country and I am inclined to think those in the PR / citizenship clique would be a large part of that group.

Anyway, as I say, if you aren't interested, don't apply.

[thairookie]

You will be a foreigner in here forever, no matter what documents you have, it is what you are inside and how you look to them.

For those who have Thai wives, you have the privilege of getting extensions based on marriage that allow you to work. So PR might not be so worthwhile. However, you can skip that phase and apply for citizenship directly.

I have always been under the impression that a foreigner married to a Thai lady will only get to stay in Thailand but NOT work. Did I miss something ?

[Tomtomtom69]

Arkady. Automatic gates at Swampy, so what ? How many days of the year will you use those ? Hardly an argument in favour.

I understood the poster to be saying that he had the same advantage of going through the Thai only queue as PRs because he could sneak through with his Thai wife but the Thai only queue is now an automatic gate and there is a new manned ASEAN only queue. If they want the Thais to go through the automatic gates in future, it might not be possible to sneak through in the ASEAN queue with a non-ASEAN passport without the Thai wife. Not a big deal I agree except, of course, if you are waiting in a massive queue. Also for business travellers who have to travel without their Thai wives but perhaps not so many of those on TV.

Getting through the ASEAN channel is easy - I was waived through to the ASEAN channel because it was less busy than the other ones - at the end of the day ASEAN nationals are still foreigners so they aren't strict about who goes through not to mention that on exit you only have "foreigners and Thais". Getting through the Thai channel is different - they have automatic gates now as you say.

[Mario2008]

You will be a foreigner in here forever, no matter what documents you have, it is what you are inside and how you look to them.

For those who have Thai wives, you have the privilege of getting extensions based on marriage that allow you to work. So PR might not be so worthwhile. However, you can skip that phase and apply for citizenship directly.

I have always been under the impression that a foreigner married to a Thai lady will only get to stay in Thailand but NOT work. Did I miss something ?

No problem in getting a work permit.

[lopburi3]

Post removed - this is about Thailand.

[p_brownstone]

As mentioned a couple of times, to me the main advantage of PR is "Certainty".

Financial requirements or other required qualifications for Visas can be changed by the Government without notice and need not necessarily be "grandfathered in" to exclude those already holding the relevant Visa for a long time; the required amount of money in the Bank or monthly Income to qualify for a Retirement Visa has already been changed at least once and some people could not meet the new requirements and lost their Visas; what happens to those on a Visa based on marriage to a Thai National if the partner dies or the marriage ends? ( I admit I have no idea but I'd be concerned at the possibilities if I was relying on that type of Visa to stay in Thailand)

I am sure there are several other similar changes that could be made by a Minister quite arbitrarily with very little notice - much less a Government debate.

With PR you have no such worries - and before someone chimes in saying "those Permanent Residence "permanent" guarantees could be cancelled or modifies by any future Thai Government" I am prepared to bet that qualifications for various types of Visa will be changed many times and with far less consideration from a Government long before they start to worry about changing the Rules for those already holding PR.

Patrick

[thairookie]

You will be a foreigner in here forever, no matter what documents you have, it is what you are inside and how you look to them.

For those who have Thai wives, you have the privilege of getting extensions based on marriage that allow you to work. So PR might not be so worthwhile. However, you can skip that phase and apply for citizenship directly.

I have always been under the impression that a foreigner married to a Thai lady will only get to stay in Thailand but NOT work. Did I miss something ?

No problem in getting a work permit.

Does that mean if you're married to a Thai, and with the Marriage Certificate, you need not have to fulfill the requirements of minimum 2M baht capital and 3:1 Thai : Foreigner rato to obtain a WP?

[naiharn]

Arkady:

You say you are waiting for your citizenship to be approved - I wish you well.

The last time I read about this subject Thailand did not allow dual citizenship, and there was a requirement in the naturalisation process to explicitly renounce one's original citizenship.

Is this still the case?

If so do you intend to honour this requirement?

Do you think it would be OK to keep your original passport on the sly so to speak, and use it for international travel? If so do you think there is much risk in doing this? Perhaps one day some anal immigration official might check and put you in hot water?

Personally, I can see the benefits of Thai citizenship, but having to give up my original citizenship (much more highly regarded internationally) would be a bridge too far.

[MAJIC]

@ Arkady Post Number 29 (sorry too many quotes to reply to your last post)

Your original quote "I think the UK wants GBP 500k from people wanting to settle there without working" bears no reference to Tier 1 Investors (which is a different story) ,and you made it sound as though,anyone who hands over GBP 500K will receive an instant settlement Visa in the UK,and doesn't need to work,so unfortunately your original wording was Ambiguous to say the least.

£1,000,000 Invested in the UK by an Entrepeneur would mean many jobs for British Workers,and ease of entry to the UK a worthwhile Incentive,to make it a viable investment for working Businessmen,from abroad.But not comparible to Thailand,unless there is a similar system in Thailand?.... if not ? then again not any benefit to the route to Thai Permanent Residency/Citizenship,which appears to be: very long winded and fraught with many drawn out problems,one wonders,if the gains are worth the effort,but I suppose that would need to answered by the PR/Citizenship Applicant.

Comparing the UK Tier 1 Investment route for Business Investers wanting to live in the UK,is also not comparable with PR or Citizenship in Thailand.

[pit101]

....... Once you have PR in Thailand no one ever asks anything about your job or financial means.

That is also the point in my opinion. And for me it is worth to spend once an amount of a bit more then half a month’s income to get rid of it!

[Arkady]

As mentioned a couple of times, to me the main advantage of PR is "Certainty".

Financial requirements or other required qualifications for Visas can be changed by the Government without notice and need not necessarily be "grandfathered in" to exclude those already holding the relevant Visa for a long time; the required amount of money in the Bank or monthly Income to qualify for a Retirement Visa has already been changed at least once and some people could not meet the new requirements and lost their Visas; what happens to those on a Visa based on marriage to a Thai National if the partner dies or the marriage ends? ( I admit I have no idea but I'd be concerned at the possibilities if I was relying on that type of Visa to stay in Thailand)

I am sure there are several other similar changes that could be made by a Minister quite arbitrarily with very little notice - much less a Government debate.

With PR you have no such worries - and before someone chimes in saying "those Permanent Residence "permanent" guarantees could be cancelled or modifies by any future Thai Government" I am prepared to bet that qualifications for various types of Visa will be changed many times and with far less consideration from a Government long before they start to worry about changing the Rules for those already holding PR.

Patrick

Right Patrick. Permanent residence has existed since the first Immigration Act of 1927 and is currently enshrined in the 1979 Immigration Act. It would require another Act of Parliament to cancel it. Even so, there are hardly any instances where a fundamental right like that (even for foreigners) has been cancelled retroactively through an Act of Parliament (revolutionary decrees have been somewhat different). Even those who were working legally with proper qualifications when work permits were introduced in the early 70s were issued life-long work permits to work in the same profession and foreigners who legally owned land before the 1954 Land Code were allowed to keep it (some still do, e.g. The British Club). On the other hand none of the other types of visas issued today like non-imm B, non-O, ed, or extensions based on retirement or marriage are mentioned specifically in the Immigration Act. They are all classified as temporary visas for purposes of business, tourism or study, the terms of which can be modified without parliamentary debate or notice through national police orders.

[Arkady]

@ Arkady Post Number 29 (sorry too many quotes to reply to your last post)

Your original quote "I think the UK wants GBP 500k from people wanting to settle there without working" bears no reference to Tier 1 Investors (which is a different story) ,and you made it sound as though,anyone who hands over GBP 500K will receive an instant settlement Visa in the UK,and doesn't need to work,so unfortunately your original wording was Ambiguous to say the least.

Invested in the UK by an Entrepeneur would mean many jobs for British Workers,and ease of entry to the UK a worthwhile Incentive,to make it a viable investment for working Businessmen,from abroad.But not comparible to Thailand,unless there is a similar system in Thailand?.... if not ? then again not any benefit to the route to Thai Permanent Residency/Citizenship,which appears to be: very long winded and fraught with many drawn out problems,one wonders,if the gains are worth the effort,but I suppose that would need to answered by the PR/Citizenship Applicant.

Comparing the UK Tier 1 Investment route for Business Investers wanting to live in the UK,is also not comparable with PR or Citizenship in Thailand.

I was comparing it to Thai retirement visas. Is there any other way apart from a Tier 1 investment visa for a non-EU citizen without family ties to retire in the UK? There is certainly nothing like Thai retirement extensions just by showing £16,000 in a bank account. The £1,000,000 Tier 1 investment visa is not a business visa . It is for passive investments by people who don't work. There is another investment visa for entrepreneurs who need to generate £3,000,000 in sales and employ at least 10 people within a certain time frame. Thailand does have one year renewable investment visas for a passive investment of THB 10 million which is the closest equivalent to the UK Tier 1 visa.

[Arkady]

You will be a foreigner in here forever, no matter what documents you have, it is what you are inside and how you look to them.

For those who have Thai wives, you have the privilege of getting extensions based on marriage that allow you to work. So PR might not be so worthwhile. However, you can skip that phase and apply for citizenship directly.

I have always been under the impression that a foreigner married to a Thai lady will only get to stay in Thailand but NOT work. Did I miss something ?

No problem in getting a work permit.

Does that mean if you're married to a Thai, and with the Marriage Certificate, you need not have to fulfill the requirements of minimum 2M baht capital and 3:1 Thai : Foreigner rato to obtain a WP?

You can get a work permit on a NON O visa extension based on marriage to a Thai spouse but not a retirement extension. You only need THB 1 million in registered capital, if married to a Thai, instead of 2 million. The 2004 DOE regulations required those with Thai spouses to have only 2 employees but that concession was dropped from the 2011 regulations. So 4 Thai employees is the basic rule for everyone now but, unlike the registered capital it is not made mandatory in the regulations, just suggested. That means that individual offices and officers have some flexibility to accept less than 4 employees. They will usually do this for a start up company and might do it for a husband and wife family business.

[Arkady]

No point in arguing further with the foxes that can't reach the grapes. They will always rail against those who can get them and find them sweet.

For those who are certain that PR or citizenship are not worth your while. Congratulations, you have achieved your desired temporary status already and you have no need to research or debate any further.

For those who hold the opposite view we can continue the discussions in the excellent threads started by Camerata and Dbrenn respectively.

[MAJIC]

@ Arkady Post Number 29 (sorry too many quotes to reply to your last post)

Your original quote "I think the UK wants GBP 500k from people wanting to settle there without working" bears no reference to Tier 1 Investors (which is a different story) ,and you made it sound as though,anyone who hands over GBP 500K will receive an instant settlement Visa in the UK,and doesn't need to work,so unfortunately your original wording was Ambiguous to say the least.

Invested in the UK by an Entrepeneur would mean many jobs for British Workers,and ease of entry to the UK a worthwhile Incentive,to make it a viable investment for working Businessmen,from abroad.But not comparible to Thailand,unless there is a similar system in Thailand?.... if not ? then again not any benefit to the route to Thai Permanent Residency/Citizenship,which appears to be: very long winded and fraught with many drawn out problems,one wonders,if the gains are worth the effort,but I suppose that would need to answered by the PR/Citizenship Applicant.

Comparing the UK Tier 1 Investment route for Business Investers wanting to live in the UK,is also not comparable with PR or Citizenship in Thailand.

I was comparing it to Thai retirement visas. Is there any other way apart from a Tier 1 investment visa for a non-EU citizen without family ties to retire in the UK? There is certainly nothing like Thai retirement extensions just by showing £16,000 in a bank account. The £1,000,000 Tier 1 investment visa is not a business visa . It is for passive investments by people who don't work. There is another investment visa for entrepreneurs who need to generate £3,000,000 in sales and employ at least 10 people within a certain time frame. Thailand does have one year renewable investment visas for a passive investment of THB 10 million which is the closest equivalent to the UK Tier 1 visa.

This has now taken so many diversions off topic,as to make it not worth continuing.

[SeabagsFull]

A note of caution to American military retirees: If you become a Thai citizen, you will lose your retirement, regardless of whether or not you denounce your US citizenship. This played out several years ago when an AF retiree became an Australian citizen. Went all the way to the SCOTUS. It's not fair, but that's that. PR is okay, but IMO the costs far outweigh the 90-day reporting hassle & yearly visa renewal efforts.

[bangkokburning]

Arcady - you make a sound argument on statistics that PR may never be yanked, Inwill grant you. But I still do not see it as worthwhile pursuit for the vast majority of expatriates.

But I would point out that Thailand is so skint with PR that these numbers do not merit doing anything about. Why would Thailand want to stir that International pot? Just let em die off and only give PR to a dozen people a year.

Obtaining PR is almost as much hassle as US citizenship. Certainly seems as much as a green card. Green card grants so much more oppty its not even funny. PR at it's core offers nothing. Seriously.

On the subject of citizenship, which may indeed be worth pursuit. SeabagsFull mentions a loss of pension for American military. My hunch is you and every other naturalized Thai has not renounced. Obtuse and vague demand provides the escape not to, a dodge.

I don't know how long you have been here, I assume it's a long time. You have been present for a minimum of two coups, perhaps as many as half dozen. There is open talk in the msm about another. I address this not perhaps to removal or modification of PR status, but the general instability of the country. It is clearly unstable, "third world" in it's political maturity. This will never change, there is simply too much money at stake and the ruling elite of the Kleptocratic class will war in the streets before it loses control. The fact that everyone holds on to their passports, spesks clearly to a no confidence vote.

As I stated, it's a ruse to be more comfortable, help with family issues, facilitate business. Without renounciation of your ciuntry of origin, you still carry that burden of tax and any number of extaterritorial bs law.

In the end, it's Thailand. Not Bahamas, Caymans, Panama, Singapote, HKG, Monaco, Switzerland, Leitchenstein, Gibraltar...wherever.

Most smart people take a second passport for banking options. Only seems with Thai pp and no renunciation it's just more taxes and no shelter.

Eight coup since my birth and I am not an old guy. This also does not include the street battles of the last few years.

BangkokBurning

[thairookie]

You can get a work permit on a NON O visa extension based on marriage to a Thai spouse but not a retirement extension. You only need THB 1 million in registered capital, if married to a Thai, instead of 2 million. The 2004 DOE regulations required those with Thai spouses to have only 2 employees but that concession was dropped from the 2011 regulations. So 4 Thai employees is the basic rule for everyone now but, unlike the registered capital it is not made mandatory in the regulations, just suggested. That means that individual offices and officers have some flexibility to accept less than 4 employees. They will usually do this for a start up company and might do it for a husband and wife family business.

Wow....thanks for clarifications!

[Issangeorge]

 

 

You will be a foreigner in here forever, no matter what documents you have, it is what you are inside and how you look to them.

For those who have Thai wives, you have the privilege of getting extensions based on marriage that allow you to work.  So PR might not be so worthwhile.  However, you can skip that phase and apply for citizenship directly.

"You can get a work permit on a NON O visa extension based on marriage to a Thai spouse but not a retirement extension."

I have had 5 work permits from 3 different labour offices on a retirement extemsion.

Sent from my i-mobile IQ 6 using Thaivisa Connect Thailand mobile app

[Time Traveller]

What on Earth For?????? unless you are from an even lower standard of 3rd World Country ....I laugh at all the people who want to be Citizens of this insanity..take it from me even if you pass all the idiotic tests YOU WILL ALWAYS BE A FOREIGNER here, the most important thing you need in Thailand is your air fare out

As shown below I say again WHY? ... I did most of this on a 1 year Non B with a 4 million baht company..the rest I dont care about after 40 years here

Benefits of Permanent Residence

• No need to leave the country within 7 days if employment is terminated.
• No need to extend or renew any visa, or report your address every 90 days.

  But you do have to obtain a re-entry visa if you go out of the country.

• Allowed to buy a condominium without having to remit funds from abroad.
• Entitled to apply for citizenship after 5 years.
• Entitled to be appointed a director of a public limited company even if the

  majority of other directors on the Board are non-Thai.

• Supposedly easier to obtain a work permit.
• Allowed to go through the "Thai passports only" channel at airport Immigration.

And you can own a gun in your own name!

Plus, if you have a wife and children here (in my case children and grandchildren) then you have the peace of mind that you don't need ever to apply for visas, always wondering whether the next visa application might run into some new difficulties, etc.

For some (me included) that's very very important, for others maybe not so important, each to their own.

Many TV members are married to Thais and have Thai kids but for those with foreign wives and kids PR carries the advantage of allowing your wife and kids to coat tail and get PR too, if you get it. Once you and your foreign wife have PR any kids born in Thailand are automatically Thai citizens by birth. Most of the people who apply for PR are Chinese or Indian Subcontinentals and they tend to have wives from their home country. This makes PR a big plus for them in addition to being their route to Thai citizenship. When they apply for that their minor children can apply at the same time and their wives can apply later under the easier terms available for wives of Thai citizens.

Now that you can apply directly for citizenship with a Thai wife, it makes sense for many to do that and skip PR. But bear in mind that anything to do with foreigners gets progressively harder. (The exemption from having PR for foreign men with Thai wives applying for citizenship wasn't out the kindness of their hearts. It was out of necessity and through gritted teeth to comply with the constitution because the law was discriminating against Thai women.) When I got PR in the late 90s, it cost Bt 52k total, documents required were minimal compared to today and results were guaranteed within 12 months. Now it can take 5 years. Citizenship used to take only from 18 months to 3 years and now it can take 5-10 years - sometimes 5 years just to get interviewed. So, if you want to apply, don't procrastinate arguing the merits and demerits. While you are doing that, they are quite likely to tighten things up across the board and make it harder to get extensions based on retirement, marriage and NON-Imm Bs as well. Surely one day they are going to decide to cull the bottom economic layer of farang retirees and make things more like they are in farang countries for people wanting to settle there. I think the UK wants GBP 500k from people wanting to settle there without working.

"I think the UK wants GBP 500k from people wanting to settle there without working"

I think you are talking nonsense! Try looking up the Channel Islands!

Sorry, I was wrong. Under the relatively new UK points system It is now GBP 1 million that is needed for a Tier 1 investor to settle in the UK. http://www.ukba.homeoffice.gov.uk/visas-immigration/working/tier1/investor/ . Perhaps there are other ways for people from outside the EU who have no partner with right of abode in the U K and aren't Commonwealth citizens with a British grandparent to come and settle in the UK without a job or the skills to qualify for a work permit but I am unaware of them. There is certainly no equivalent for, say, a 65 retired old Thai, without family in the UK to come and get annually renewable retirement visas by showing the equivalent of only THB 800k or an annual pension of the same amount which is close to the poverty line in the UK. Even if they could marry Essex girls as easily as farangs can marry Thai village girls, that wouldn't get them visa extensions through marriage and probably not even a tourist visa.

Think of it from the Thai perspective and their aspirations to become a high income country and replace low end subsistence tourism with higher margin arrivals and it is obvious that things are going to change at some point in the future. Immigration increased the price of PR from THB 52,000 to nearly 200,000 and still plenty of people apply. If they increased the cost of retirement visas substantially and raised the financial requirement to THB 2 or 3 million, I bet they would still have plenty of people applying. They now have 23 million tourist arrivals. When they first came up with the idea of a retirement visa to boost the numbers in the late 80s, they had less than 5 million. Once you have PR in Thailand no one ever asks anything about your job or financial means.

Arkady you have a lot of knowledge on this subject, but this last post is just crazy speculation. The current visa laws are what they are. They'll change whenever the officials decide to change them, but putting out these ideas that about "raising the financial requirement" or "replace low end subsistence tourism" (which I don't understand what tourism has to do with PR ?) or "become a high income country" (what does that have to do with visas?) are all about as likely to happen as the chances are that the nation will implode from political or civil unrest.

For the people who see value in PR then it has value to them, but for the people that don't see the value it's probably because they have other easier and better value options to reside here. In the eyes of the Thais, I would imagine they think the idea of giving out PR is just a novelty since so few people are granted it each year and it has no real advantageous rights to work or asset ownership as with PR in other countries. In other words PR resembles just paying for a lifetime worth of annual visa extensions upfront. Kind of like a season pass to the amusement parks - but without the discount!

Edited May 18, 2013 by Time Traveller

[ElsonQuick]

What on Earth For?????? unless you are from an even lower standard of 3rd World Country ....I laugh at all the people who want to be Citizens of this insanity..take it from me even if you pass all the idiotic tests YOU WILL ALWAYS BE A FOREIGNER here, the most important thing you need in Thailand is your air fare out

As shown below I say again WHY? ... I did most of this on a 1 year Non B with a 4 million baht company..the rest I dont care about after 40 years here

Benefits of Permanent Residence

• No need to leave the country within 7 days if employment is terminated.
• No need to extend or renew any visa, or report your address every 90 days.

  But you do have to obtain a re-entry visa if you go out of the country.

• Allowed to buy a condominium without having to remit funds from abroad.
• Entitled to apply for citizenship after 5 years.
• Entitled to be appointed a director of a public limited company even if the

  majority of other directors on the Board are non-Thai.

• Supposedly easier to obtain a work permit.
• Allowed to go through the "Thai passports only" channel at airport Immigration.

Agree 100%. Why would anyone want this?

[Mario2008]

1 flame deleted. Keep it civil.

[gemini81]

Advantages of citizenship.

I can buy a house in my own name using a home loan from a Thai bank.

Do you need any more advantages than that?

That is the singlemost important advantage that many overlooked or didn't know about. Not just no need to bring in 20k US from abroad; but loans at a low interest rate and able to get much more than 50% from the bank. Easier to travel for personal/business reasons without re entry this and immigration that...its worth it to do it yourself though, as a lot of the lawyer fees they can't explain and many agencies are asking for up to 100k for the service, most of which they're pocketing. In addition, you still must jump through all the hoops, from dna check to the police background check. Info on many sites to see if you're pre-qualified or not. Its worth its, as the treatment is less '2nd class citizen' really...paperwork at banks and everywhere is much easier (expect the places where Thai staff have never seen nor heard of 'thai resident' before and loom perplexed, haha).

[gemini81]

Arcady - you make a sound argument on statistics that PR may never be yanked, Inwill grant you. But I still do not see it as worthwhile pursuit for the vast majority of expatriates.

But I would point out that Thailand is so skint with PR that these numbers do not merit doing anything about. Why would Thailand want to stir that International pot? Just let em die off and only give PR to a dozen people a year.

Obtaining PR is almost as much hassle as US citizenship. Certainly seems as much as a green card. Green card grants so much more oppty its not even funny. PR at it's core offers nothing. Seriously.

On the subject of citizenship, which may indeed be worth pursuit. SeabagsFull mentions a loss of pension for American military. My hunch is you and every other naturalized Thai has not renounced. Obtuse and vague demand provides the escape not to, a dodge.

I don't know how long you have been here, I assume it's a long time. You have been present for a minimum of two coups, perhaps as many as half dozen. There is open talk in the msm about another. I address this not perhaps to removal or modification of PR status, but the general instability of the country. It is clearly unstable, "third world" in it's political maturity. This will never change, there is simply too much money at stake and the ruling elite of the Kleptocratic class will war in the streets before it loses control. The fact that everyone holds on to their passports, spesks clearly to a no confidence vote.

As I stated, it's a ruse to be more comfortable, help with family issues, facilitate business. Without renounciation of your ciuntry of origin, you still carry that burden of tax and any number of extaterritorial bs law.

In the end, it's Thailand. Not Bahamas, Caymans, Panama, Singapote, HKG, Monaco, Switzerland, Leitchenstein, Gibraltar...wherever.

Most smart people take a second passport for banking options. Only seems with Thai pp and no renunciation it's just more taxes and no shelter.

Eight coup since my birth and I am not an old guy. This also does not include the street battles of the last few years.

BangkokBurning

..but interestingly enough, this is your stomping grounds and where you're staying, instead of all those other places of utopia. You even contribute to a Thai visa forum. Funny thing about that. A lot of worthwhile points have been mentioned pertaining to having your native citizenship, along with residency here (as far as PR).

Edited May 18, 2013 by gemini81

[Arkady]

Arkady you have a lot of knowledge on this subject, but this last post is just crazy speculation. The current visa laws are what they are. They'll change whenever the officials decide to change them, but putting out these ideas that about "raising the financial requirement" or "replace low end subsistence tourism" (which I don't understand what tourism has to do with PR ?) or "become a high income country" (what does that have to do with visas?) are all about as likely to happen as the chances are that the nation will implode from political or civil unrest.

For the people who see value in PR then it has value to them, but for the people that don't see the value it's probably because they have other easier and better value options to reside here. In the eyes of the Thais, I would imagine they think the idea of giving out PR is just a novelty since so few people are granted it each year and it has no real advantageous rights to work or asset ownership as with PR in other countries. In other words PR resembles just paying for a lifetime worth of annual visa extensions upfront. Kind of like a season pass to the amusement parks - but without the discount!

Re the question of what has tourism got to do with these issues. If you don't have PR, aren't a (passive) investor (of THB 10 million), or a legal expat worker, a student or in transit, you are a tourist in the eyes of the law. Thus those on extensions based on retirement or marriage are classified as tourists by the lawmakers and bureaucrats. That means that any change in tourism policy could have ramifications for those long term (temporary) tourists in addition to the more traditional short term tourists and changing conditions for any type of temporary visa is easy. Whether this will happen sooner or later I can't say but I am happy with PR as a protection against that. It cost me nothing personally, as my company paid the Bt 52,000 cost, and took just under a year. So far I have invested Bt 5,000 in citizenship and will pay another Bt 1,000, if and when I get it.

Edited May 18, 2013 by Arkady

[jbrain]

Why do Chinese immigrants want UK, US, Canadian or Australian citizenship? Because they live there - duh.

Maybe for the benefits, like social security and so on ?

[Time Traveller]

Arkady you have a lot of knowledge on this subject, but this last post is just crazy speculation. The current visa laws are what they are. They'll change whenever the officials decide to change them, but putting out these ideas that about "raising the financial requirement" or "replace low end subsistence tourism" (which I don't understand what tourism has to do with PR ?) or "become a high income country" (what does that have to do with visas?) are all about as likely to happen as the chances are that the nation will implode from political or civil unrest.

For the people who see value in PR then it has value to them, but for the people that don't see the value it's probably because they have other easier and better value options to reside here. In the eyes of the Thais, I would imagine they think the idea of giving out PR is just a novelty since so few people are granted it each year and it has no real advantageous rights to work or asset ownership as with PR in other countries. In other words PR resembles just paying for a lifetime worth of annual visa extensions upfront. Kind of like a season pass to the amusement parks - but without the discount!

Re the question of what has tourism got to do with these issues. If you don't have PR, aren't a (passive) investor (of THB 10 million), or a legal expat worker, a student or in transit, you are a tourist in the eyes of the law. Thus those on extensions based on retirement or marriage are classified as tourists by the lawmakers and bureaucrats.

And those lawmakers and bureaucrats measure success in the growth in the number of tourists that they get to come here.

Even using Thai logic, why would they think getting tourist numbers to decline is actually success?

Sure it's possible they could turn the country into a country like North Korea - or even Bhutan - where tourists are not welcome and foreigners only seen as cash cows, but then I'm sure I would not want to live here if it was like that. But it is possible some of these new PR's or citizens would be happy to spend the rest of their lives in a place regardless of what kind of event happens.

[Arkady]

Arkady you have a lot of knowledge on this subject, but this last post is just crazy speculation. The current visa laws are what they are. They'll change whenever the officials decide to change them, but putting out these ideas that about "raising the financial requirement" or "replace low end subsistence tourism" (which I don't understand what tourism has to do with PR ?) or "become a high income country" (what does that have to do with visas?) are all about as likely to happen as the chances are that the nation will implode from political or civil unrest.

For the people who see value in PR then it has value to them, but for the people that don't see the value it's probably because they have other easier and better value options to reside here. In the eyes of the Thais, I would imagine they think the idea of giving out PR is just a novelty since so few people are granted it each year and it has no real advantageous rights to work or asset ownership as with PR in other countries. In other words PR resembles just paying for a lifetime worth of annual visa extensions upfront. Kind of like a season pass to the amusement parks - but without the discount!

Re the question of what has tourism got to do with these issues. If you don't have PR, aren't a (passive) investor (of THB 10 million), or a legal expat worker, a student or in transit, you are a tourist in the eyes of the law. Thus those on extensions based on retirement or marriage are classified as tourists by the lawmakers and bureaucrats.

And those lawmakers and bureaucrats measure success in the growth in the number of tourists that they get to come here.

Even using Thai logic, why would they think getting tourist numbers to decline is actually success?

Sure it's possible they could turn the country into a country like North Korea - or even Bhutan - where tourists are not welcome and foreigners only seen as cash cows, but then I'm sure I would not want to live here if it was like that. But it is possible some of these new PR's or citizens would be happy to spend the rest of their lives in a place regardless of what kind of event happens.

The most prominent statistics are tourist arrivals. So foreign retirees who arrive and stay don't add much. Those living at subsistence level also drag down the average expenditures per day statistics. Whenever Thais talk about promoting foreign retirees they always talk about putting them in overpriced gerry built "luxury" developments in Swedish, Korean or Japanese ghettos in places in like Hua Hin and ripping them off for service appartment, catering and healthcare services. They never talk about promoting the equivalent of backpacker retirees. In fact there are a lot of exaggerated news stories about khee nok foreign retirees without healthcare insurance putting a strain on government hospitals by leaving unpaid bills for emergency treatment. Remember that Thaksin, the architect of the Thai Elite Card, even hates backpacker tourists.

[Dork]

For the people who see value in PR then it has value to them, but for the people that don't see the value it's probably because they have other easier and better value options to reside here. In the eyes of the Thais, I would imagine they think the idea of giving out PR is just a novelty since so few people are granted it each year and it has no real advantageous rights to work or asset ownership as with PR in other countries. In other words PR resembles just paying for a lifetime worth of annual visa extensions upfront. Kind of like a season pass to the amusement parks - but without the discount!

I'm not sure what your point is regarding whether or not there is value in Thai PR.

I'm sure that if you asked the majority of PR applicants whether they think it is fair or sensible that a PR still needs a work permit or still needs to jump through many of the same hoops as a non-PR, they would answer no.

But if you ask the same people whether they think the 100k or 200k fee is reasonable, I'm quite sure the majority would tell you that it isn't even a factor in their decision.

Quite simply, for many people who want to make long term plans to stay in Thailand, PR is the best security they can get. How well it compares to other countries or whether 20 x 1900 Baht is more or less than the fee is irrelevant.

If making serious decisions about the future of your life, is USD3000 or 6000 significant?