Cancel Us Citizenship

[rotary]

Be sure to take the $400 or something like that they charge at the Embassy, I had a friend who gave up US citizen and he had a heck of a time but finally got it done. They were on about him liable for tax for 7 years. I knew him when he got that citizenship and tried to warn him and many years later when he got rid of that US citizen he was telling me he wished he had listened to me. Getting a US passport is the worse thing anyone can do if they are a high wage earner. Much easier to get than to get rid of. There are many passports in the world much better than that US passport and taxes are terrible. All this is the view point from a high wage earner stand point. Nothing to do with anything else except taxes and problems with them

Edited May 24, 2013 by rotary

[rotary]

LIke NeverSure said I can't image someone wanting to give up their U.S. citizenship and the associated benefits unless they are trying to avoid something like taxes owed.

I think taxes owed are not the problem, I think future taxation is the issue.

Can't understand how a country can tax its citizens who live abroad without providing services in return.

Well they do provide services in return. Just whether those services are worth 39% of my annual salary are another discussion.

Services the U.S. government provides it's citizens who live abroad...

Here's an example: Recently, I went to the U.S. Consulate to have 3 forms notarized. It took about 2 minutes of the guy's time.

Cost: 1,500 baht (or $50) each. Total for 3 signatures = 4,500 baht (or $150).

Years ago, I used to pay $1.50 to $2.50 for a notary in the U.S. Today, at $10 it might be called a service. At $50 a pop, it might

be very aptly be called something else...

And now they have that Book online thing that is also terrible. The service gets worse and the prices get higher at the US Embassy.

[elektrified]

Not that easy to renounce U.S. citizenship. My uncle did it and it took close to two years to complete. The USA investigated him going all the way back to the 1940's when he was in the Army and also checked to see if he ever owed a dime to the USA in taxes. They even called him a few times in Europe and asked him a series of questions including if he ever had a U.S. social security number, if he was a member of any extremest groups, etc.

[Joe Mamma]

Well well well, You can't use any of the benefits of your tax dollars, no police, fire, sewer, library etc. And you can build up the SS, if it isn't canceled or cut back on. And you can say, hey I am a US citizen. I think the lucky bastards are the ones sneaking into the US and living a free subsidized life, even have as many kids as you want, all paid for by your taxdollars you send overseas every year..

[jrtmedic]

Wonder why Yanks are such whiners ?

Confirmation of income letter from the UK embassy in BKK 2070 TBT

Western Embassy service charges are based on what it costs to provide the service.

Maybe the Yanks here would prefer that more tax was paid by workers in the good ol US of A so they can have a free service provided in BKK !

[elektrified]

Why cancel US citizenship? What is the advantage?

Most, if not all Swiss Banks are now giving U.S. citizens three choices:

1. Provide your U.S. tax ID number to the bank on a form signed by a USA licensed C.P.A along with his/her tax ID number.;

2. Don't provide your U.S. tax ID number and terminate the relationship forthwith;

3. Renounce your U.S. citizenship (if you are a dual citizen) and maintain the relationship.

[Somtamnication]

Don't know the details. Obviously the embassy might be a place to inquire. However, I do know that the USA has issues with citizens cancelling their citizenship for TAX purposes. So if there are US taxation issues, it could potentially be messy.

No they don't. Every person that renounces citizenship - for what ever reason - will be checked for taxation liability before it's finally renounced.

Nope.

I pleasantly walked into the US Embassy in London, handed my citizenship papers (naturalized) and passport and verbally stated " I, name, hereby renounce my US citizenship". Hand it to the US State Dept. official while their mouth is still open and get out.

Did that after Bush was elected. Never looked back. No tax liabilities, as I had filed by April 15th. and I knew all was in the clear.

[partington]

Don't know the details. Obviously the embassy might be a place to inquire. However, I do know that the USA has issues with citizens cancelling their citizenship for TAX purposes. So if there are US taxation issues, it could potentially be messy.

No they don't. Every person that renounces citizenship - for what ever reason - will be checked for taxation liability before it's finally renounced.

Nope.

I pleasantly walked into the US Embassy in London, handed my citizenship papers (naturalized) and passport and verbally stated " I, name, hereby renounce my US citizenship". Hand it to the US State Dept. official while their mouth is still open and get out.

Did that after Bush was elected. Never looked back. No tax liabilities, as I had filed by April 15th. and I knew all was in the clear.

You're wrong about this, as even though you had filed your usual Federal IRS tax return, this is not sufficient for renouncing citizenship which is handled by different tax rules.

You must file a form 8854, Initial and Annual expatriation statement for your tax situation to be assessed. Failure to do this is illegal and alone can render you liable to be treated as a covered expatriate and therefore subject to punitive tax laws. Here's the info: http://www.irs.gov/Individuals/International-Taxpayers/Expatriation-Tax

It is your responsibility to do this - the IRS are likely unaware that you have renounced citizenship, as I'm sure Homeland Security don't inform the IRS.

The truth is you are not in compliance with the IRS. Of course it may not matter to you - they cannot police it if you are abroad. If you never plan to return to the US, do not have any assets or retirement plans left in the US, or never plan to claim social security from the US later on, then you will get away with it.

If you do plan to do any of these any of these however it would eventually require IRS involvement, and your failure to fill in form 8854 would come to light and would complicate your situation.

Some extracts from link:

"Individuals that renounced their US citizenship or terminated their long-term resident status for tax purposes on or before June 3, 2004 must file a Form 8854 to comply with the notification requirements under IRC 877 and 877A."

"Individuals that renounced their US citizenship or terminated their long-term resident status for tax purposes after June 3, 2004 must file a Form 8854 to effect the expatriation tax provisions under IRC 877. Furthermore, pursuant to IRC 7701(n), until such individuals both files a Form 8854 with the IRS and notifies either the Department of State or of Homeland Security of their expatriation or termination of long-term resident status for tax purposes, such individuals will continue to be treated as if they were still US citizens or residents for tax purposes."

"The Internal Revenue Service reminds practitioners that anyone who has expatriated or terminated his U.S. residency status must file Initial and Annual Expatriation Information Statement">Form 8854, Initial and Annual Expatriation Information Statement (PDF). Form 8854 must also be filed to comply with the annual information reporting requirements of Internal Revenue Code section 6039G, if the person is subject to tax under Section 877 of the Code. A $10,000 penalty may be imposed for failure to file Form 8854 when required."

Edited May 24, 2013 by partington

[Somtamnication]

Thanks for the clarification. I take what you say under advisement.

As the gestapo, I mean, Homeland Security was formed after I had left, I doubt that they are even involved. If the IRS wishes to contact me, they can call the open-mouthed State Dept. official directly.

[elektrified]

Don't know the details. Obviously the embassy might be a place to inquire. However, I do know that the USA has issues with citizens cancelling their citizenship for TAX purposes. So if there are US taxation issues, it could potentially be messy.

No they don't. Every person that renounces citizenship - for what ever reason - will be checked for taxation liability before it's finally renounced.

Nope.

I pleasantly walked into the US Embassy in London, handed my citizenship papers (naturalized) and passport and verbally stated " I, name, hereby renounce my US citizenship". Hand it to the US State Dept. official while their mouth is still open and get out.

Did that after Bush was elected. Never looked back. No tax liabilities, as I had filed by April 15th. and I knew all was in the clear.

I'm pretty sure it was the U.S. Embassy in London that my uncle walked into also. Also after Bush was selected. Took 2 years to complete the process.

[partington]

@ Somtamnification

Yes, you are perfectly safe I'm sure, the IRS will never contact you. The problem will only arise if you ever have to contact them, which you probably never will.

I was more posting to add to general information about renouncing your citizenship, (which also applies to long term green card holders, which is how I know about it.)

You have to think of it as logging out of two separate systems, The Dept of Immigration (or Homeland Security as they are now) is logged out of by declaration, or more commonly by filling in a form, and then the IRS system is logged out of with form 8854.

You are not logged out of tax obligations until you've done 8854 - even if you've relinquished your passport....

Edited May 24, 2013 by partington

[BradinAsia]

Wonder why Yanks are such whiners ?

Confirmation of income letter from the UK embassy in BKK 2070 TBT

Western Embassy service charges are based on what it costs to provide the service.

Maybe the Yanks here would prefer that more tax was paid by workers in the good ol US of A so they can have a free service provided in BKK !

You are joking, right?

Two minutes for $150. And it's based on what it costs to provide the service?

I'd be da_mn happy if it was based on the cost to provide the service.

Edited May 24, 2013 by BradinAsia

[Emdog]

"Can't understand how a country can tax its citizens who live abroad without providing services in return."

I know I get plenty of services from USA: invading other countries, propping dictators and such, living in posh residences with "hardship pay" whilst serving at embassy and having no contact with "real natives", CIA pranks, rendition ain't cheap, monitoring ALL electronic messaging worldwide, etc etc. (Are you listening, Bob?). Plenty of service.

[jrtmedic]

Wonder why Yanks are such whiners ?

Confirmation of income letter from the UK embassy in BKK 2070 TBT

Western Embassy service charges are based on what it costs to provide the service.

Maybe the Yanks here would prefer that more tax was paid by workers in the good ol US of A so they can have a free service provided in BKK !

You are joking, right?

Two minutes for $150. And it's based on what it costs to provide the service?

I'd be da_mn happy if it was based on the cost to provide the service.

No joke !

Maybe you are in possession of fact relating to "true cost" .

I just pass on what I am told for what it is worth !

[Trembly]

Unless someone was a really high earner and didn't ever want to set foot in the US again, and preferred to gain citizenship in a country which has low taxes, I can't imagine doing it. There are too many benefits to being able to land on US soil at will. It's also a great passport to have.

Would I really want to live in Singapore which is so tiny, and where I feel like a stranger, when the US is so big and varied in choices of living area, costs, and lifestyle? The US is also a cheap place to live. Even downtown NYC is much cheaper than Singapore or London or Sydney or Melbourne or Paris or Geneva or Tokyo or Oslo...

No city in the US is on the list of the ten most expensive cities in the world. Link. People forget that it isn't all about income and capital gains taxes. It's about opportunity and overall costs, too.

That said, if your friend wants to do it, he makes application and settles up with the IRS. That settlement isn't unfair, but they want to collect any taxes due before they'll release citizenship.

That is a huge decision.

Nothing wrong with a Singapore passport. Accepted in as many countries as a US Passport and can land in the US with "visa on arrival" status. And more importantly, no world wide tax to deal with. That is the biggest gripe I have and my friends all have as expats. World wide tax. Get rid of world wide tax and less people would be looking to ditch their citizenship or try to hide money IMO.

British friend of mine married and living in Singapore for many years chose a Singapore passport for his daughter when she was an infant as he saw that as the 'path of least resistance' as she grew up and went to school there. Now she has been offered a place at University in England and he is ruing the day he opted against a UK passport with the rather onerous UK student visa requirements. Having said that, I have no idea if he explored dual-citizenship (and concurrent UK passport) for her. Maybe Singapore doesn't permit that?

What is "world wide tax" btw?

What a silly billy.

He should have just registered his daughter as a British citizen upon finding out about the UK student visa requirements.

Singapore does not allow dual citizenship but how are they supposed to find out if nobody presents them with cause to believe that the girl holds another citizenship?

Edited May 25, 2013 by Trembly

[lopburi3]

Several troll posts and replies removed.