Woolwich Attack: ' Soldier Beheaded' By Ranting Fanatics On Busy London Street

[mrtoad]

Over the last few years I've read a fair amount of articles regarding the English Defense league,they all gave me the impression that this is a racist/fascist organization supported by skinhead idiots. Now after reading a few articles by the leader of the EDL, Tommy Robinson,and also having watched a few videos of him he seems to be anything but a racist/ fascist, he's very articulated

seems he only wants for the different communities to get along peacefully,including Muslims. What he seems to be against, is the turning over of our country to the Islamic extremist. Am I correct in my reappraisal Of what the EDL now stands for, and if so, why were they getting bad press.

Not really sure either, i took an interest in them when they first formed but distanced myself as there seemed to be a heavy football hooligan presence, wether or not that is still the case remains to be seen.

They have a protest in London today at Downing Street at 3pm, this is there chance to show what they stand for. Hopefully, it will not be spoiled by those looking for a fight.

Interesting to see how the EDL Facebook page likes has grown by over 100,000 in the past few days.

[7by7]

Have you read the Bible? There's lots of nasty bits in there too.

Does this mean that Christians are dedicated to killing unbelievers?

Of course it doesn't!

Taking bits out of context to support your argument only shows your desperation.

You make a good point, unwittingly. Both books are full of archaic concepts, exhortations to violence and are often self-contradictory. The problem comes when people fail to recognise this and delude themselves that these are the unalterable and infallible expressions of an all-powerful mythical being, and use this to justify carring out acts which any moral code should find repulsive.

Not unwittingly.

The majority of Muslims do not, as you say, "delude themselves that these are the unalterable and infallible expressions of an all-powerful mythical being, and use this to justify carring out acts which any moral code should find repulsive." any more than the majority of Christians do.

But there are fanatics in both religions who do.

List of Christian Terrorism for example.

[transam]

Have you read the Bible? There's lots of nasty bits in there too.

Does this mean that Christians are dedicated to killing unbelievers?

Of course it doesn't!

Taking bits out of context to support your argument only shows your desperation.

You make a good point, unwittingly. Both books are full of archaic concepts, exhortations to violence and are often self-contradictory. The problem comes when people fail to recognise this and delude themselves that these are the unalterable and infallible expressions of an all-powerful mythical being, and use this to justify carring out acts which any moral code should find repulsive.

Not unwittingly.

The majority of Muslims do not, as you say, "delude themselves that these are the unalterable and infallible expressions of an all-powerful mythical being, and use this to justify carring out acts which any moral code should find repulsive." any more than the majority of Christians do.

But there are fanatics in both religions who do.

List of Christian Terrorism for example.

So what about all the rest of the stuff they must abide by. ?

[7by7]

good article by Melanie Phillips author of Londonistan, the best book ever about Islamification of the UK:

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/debate/article-2331368/Until-leaders-admit-true-nature-Islamic-extremism-defeat-it.html

Melanie Phillips.

Phillips's criticisms of liberal Jews who disagree with her positions on Israel have been condemned by Jewish writers such as Jonathan Freedland, Alan Dershowitz, and Rabbi David Goldberg. Freedland criticised Phillips's labelling Independent Jewish Voices, a group of liberal Jews, as "Jews For Genocide". He wrote in The Jewish Chronicle: "Now, as it happens, I have multiple criticisms of IJV [...] but even their most trenchant opponents must surely blanch at the notion that these critics of Israel and of Anglo-Jewish officialdom are somehow in favour of genocide—literally, eager to see the murder and eradication of the Jewish people [...] it is an absurdity, one that drains the word 'genocide' of any meaning."

(Wikipedia)

As you are a self confessed supporter of a fascist organisation, the BNP, and in this thread have even encouraged others to join them; I find it something of a surprise that you quote a Jew.

But as she is an irrational Islamaphobic , Homophobic preacher of hate, I guess it's no surprise really.

Do fascists now like Jews?

[Ace of Pop]

Your list of Christian Idiots is O.K. One could say based on that why import Nutters from another Country . We have enough of our own. As for Fighting, sadly its inevitable, Brits are being ignored .Another Islamic stabbed a French Soldier in the neck by the way, ive seen your English Football Guys go mad, not very nice.But Jeez they can Fight.

[TexasRanger]

good article by Melanie Phillips author of Londonistan, the best book ever about Islamification of the UK:

 

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/debate/article-2331368/Until-leaders-admit-true-nature-Islamic-extremism-defeat-it.html

 

Melanie Phillips.

Phillips's criticisms of liberal Jews who disagree with her positions on Israel have been condemned by Jewish writers such as Jonathan Freedland, Alan Dershowitz, and Rabbi David Goldberg. Freedland criticised Phillips's labelling Independent Jewish Voices, a group of liberal Jews, as "Jews For Genocide". He wrote in The Jewish Chronicle: "Now, as it happens, I have multiple criticisms of IJV [...] but even their most trenchant opponents must surely blanch at the notion that these critics of Israel and of Anglo-Jewish officialdom are somehow in favour of genocide—literally, eager to see the murder and eradication of the Jewish people [...] it is an absurdity, one that drains the word 'genocide' of any meaning."

(Wikipedia)

 

As you are a self confessed supporter of a fascist organisation, the BNP, and in this thread have even encouraged others to join them; I find it something of a surprise that you quote a Jew.

 

But as she is an irrational Islamaphobic , Homophobic preacher of hate, I guess it's no surprise really.

Do fascists now like Jews?

I couldn't eat a whole one

[7by7]

Have you read the Bible? There's lots of nasty bits in there too.

Does this mean that Christians are dedicated to killing unbelievers?

Of course it doesn't!

Taking bits out of context to support your argument only shows your desperation.

You make a good point, unwittingly. Both books are full of archaic concepts, exhortations to violence and are often self-contradictory. The problem comes when people fail to recognise this and delude themselves that these are the unalterable and infallible expressions of an all-powerful mythical being, and use this to justify carring out acts which any moral code should find repulsive.

Not unwittingly.

The majority of Muslims do not, as you say, "delude themselves that these are the unalterable and infallible expressions of an all-powerful mythical being, and use this to justify carring out acts which any moral code should find repulsive." any more than the majority of Christians do.

But there are fanatics in both religions who do.

List of Christian Terrorism for example.

So what about all the rest of the stuff they must abide by. ?

What stuff do you mean?

• Attending mass every Sunday and Holiday of Obligation?
• Going to confession at least once a month?
• Not eating meat on a Friday?
• Not using contraception, leading to many being born into poverty?
• Etc., etc.

Not to forget child abuse by priests.

And that's just the Catholics!

Oh, and instead of yet again posting the silly coffee cup smiley as if it meant anything, how about finding a post or comment of mine which could in any way shape or form be construed as condoning this vicious murder?

I asked you this before after you accused me of doing so; haven't found one yet, have you; because I have never done so!

Despite this, I am again accused of doing so by people who cannot have read what I have posted.

Edited May 27, 2013 by 7by7

[Mosha]

>good article by Melanie Phillips author of Londonistan, the best book ever about Islamification of the UK:

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/debate/article-2331368/Until-leaders-admit-true-nature-Islamic-extremism-defeat-it.html

Melanie Phillips.

Phillips's criticisms of liberal Jews who disagree with her positions on Israel have been condemned by Jewish writers such as Jonathan Freedland, Alan Dershowitz, and Rabbi David Goldberg. Freedland criticised Phillips's labelling Independent Jewish Voices, a group of liberal Jews, as "Jews For Genocide". He wrote in The Jewish Chronicle: "Now, as it happens, I have multiple criticisms of IJV [...] but even their most trenchant opponents must surely blanch at the notion that these critics of Israel and of Anglo-Jewish officialdom are somehow in favour of genocide—literally, eager to see the murder and eradication of the Jewish people [...] it is an absurdity, one that drains the word 'genocide' of any meaning."

(Wikipedia)

As you are a self confessed supporter of a fascist organisation, the BNP, and in this thread have even encouraged others to join them; I find it something of a surprise that you quote a Jew.

But as she is an irrational Islamaphobic , Homophobic preacher of hate, I guess it's no surprise really.

Do fascists now like Jews?

I stopped voting long before I came here. I just began to feel voting changed nothing. Last time I did I just scrawled non of the above. However, if the 3 main parties don't start to listen. Do not be surprised ant UKIP and BNP getting seats. The population who can trace their routes back to William the Conqueror and before, have had enough.

[GentlemanJim]

And the latest score tally is.................

TV Members in support of immediate positive action to the perceived problem with Islam in the UK...........to many to mention, TV members making futile excuses and apologies for same........7by7

7by7

You can argue all you like, the logic is simple. If broad brush laws are brought in now to deal with these 'terrorists' who sit on their ass all day collecting benefits, interrupted with the odd hate protest, then some Moderate Muslims may feel some short term pain, but that is all it will be, short term, and if as you say the moderates fully understand the dichotomy here then they will ignore that pain as it is for the greater good and soon it will be 'problem solved' and they can realise their dream of living in an integrated Great Britain, free to practice their religion. IF however, we continue to kowtow to the extreme Liberals just to appease a few who may get upset and offended then it will very quickly be game over for life and society as you know it in the UK. The choice is yours, but you will find you are standing in an ever diminishing group of people with your current views............Now where is that like page for the EDL? I must make it 100 001.

Edited May 27, 2013 by GentlemanJim

[7by7]

GentlemanJim,

You have obviously not read the entire thread, or if you have you have failed to understand it.

If you had you would know that I am not alone in pointing out that the vast majority of British Muslims abhor this atrocious act as much as you and I.

You would know that they have kicked Choudrey and his ilk out of their mosques and disown him, saying he does not speak for them.

You would know that I have never made any excuses, futile or otherwise, for these murderers nor for Islamist extremists such as Choudrey.

You and others who accuse me of same can repeat your libel against me as often as it pleases you; those who have actually read my posts know it is a lie.

After the dreadful incident in Liverpool on Saturday, following your logic and that of so many others posting in this thread, I expect you to be calling for all dog owners to be locked up until the problem of irresponsible owners of dangerous dogs has been solved!

[Steely Dan]

And the latest score tally is.................

TV Members in support of immediate positive action to the perceived problem with Islam in the UK...........to many to mention, TV members making futile excuses and apologies for same........7by7

7by7

You can argue all you like, the logic is simple. If broad brush laws are brought in now to deal with these 'terrorists' who sit on their ass all day collecting benefits, interrupted with the odd hate protest, then some Moderate Muslims may feel some short term pain, but that is all it will be, short term, and if as you say the moderates fully understand the dichotomy here then they will ignore that pain as it is for the greater good and soon it will be 'problem solved' and they can realise their dream of living in an integrated Great Britain, free to practice their religion. IF however, we continue to kowtow to the extreme Liberals just to appease a few who may get upset and offended then it will very quickly be game over for life and society as you know it in the UK. The choice is yours, but you will find you are standing in an ever diminishing group of people with your current views............Now where is that like page for the EDL? I must make it 100 001.

The pain caused by cognitive dissonance must be great indeed when one's cherished belief collapses around their head. We have a copycat stabbing in Paris and Stockholm burns for a sixth night, not to mention the forced landing of the Pakistani jet. Nothing whatsoever to do with ideology though.

[7by7]

SteelyDan,

As you will see if you bothered to read the news reports in the thread on the plane incident; nothing to do with radical Islam, nothing to do with terrorism, nothing to do with ideology of any form.

[7by7]

As for the EDL, it was they, remember, who started and spread the false rumours about Muslims on the streets celebrating Drummer Rigby's murder.

They and their leaders may make what appear to be reasonable videos for posting on YouTube, but the reality is much different.

But I have to hand it to him; Robinson knows a good photo opportunity when he sees one!

Woolwich attack: English Defence League chief and Muslim share hug at protest

[transam]

As for the EDL, it was they, remember, who started and spread the false rumours about Muslims on the streets celebrating Drummer Rigby's murder.

They and their leaders may make what appear to be reasonable videos for posting on YouTube, but the reality is much different.

But I have to hand it to him; Robinson knows a good photo opportunity when he sees one!

Wow, thank ................ your not a UK politician.

Edited May 27, 2013 by Scott

[7by7]

TexasRanger,

The EDL are an ultra right wing group who use violence and lies to garner support.

Choudrey is a Muslim extremist who uses violence and lies to garner support.

They are one and the same in my book.

The EDL no more represents the majority of white English or British than Choudrey represents the majority of British Muslims.

[Ace of Pop]

Seems that Divide and Rule is working here amongst posters.Just what they want. I must admit to being a Fascist because i'm against Mob Rule. Clearly your Cowardly Brits will just roll over. A sad lot!!. Ive never heard such nonsense about Portuguese Police, they defend their Citizens, just as the Army and Brit Cops would do if the Lefty Brit Wimps were silenced.

[Scott]

Numerous off-topic posts and replies have been deleted. A general discussion of politics is outside the scope of this thread. Christian terrorists are certainly off-topic.

[canuckamuck]

canuckamuck.

The link I posted was just one of many which came up when I searched; you will, unfortunately, find many more if you look.

But many of those carried out in recent years, and continuing, are carried out in Africa by Africans and so are rarely reported in the Western media.

I have already posted numerous quotes from Muslims, ordinary people and those who represent them, denouncing this atrocity and others and emphasising that these atrocities do not represent the teachings of Islam.

Search the internet and you will find thousands more.

Why don't you believe them?

The outrage we see from Muslims is out of scale with the amount of violence inflicted on us by them. Their ideology has for a decade now been the expected motive for any terrorist act. So it is not so much that we don't believe them, we are simply appalled with what meager lip service they offer. What they need to do is radically define which of them are prepared to be a peaceful part of the 21st century, from those who still want to party like it's 699 (CE)

They need to identify who is for peace and who is for converting the world by sword.

To say Islam has a PR problem is like saying Thailand has shown an interest in Buddhism.

Edited May 27, 2013 by canuckamuck

[7by7]

canuckamuck.

The link I posted was just one of many which came up when I searched; you will, unfortunately, find many more if you look.

But many of those carried out in recent years, and continuing, are carried out in Africa by Africans and so are rarely reported in the Western media.

I have already posted numerous quotes from Muslims, ordinary people and those who represent them, denouncing this atrocity and others and emphasising that these atrocities do not represent the teachings of Islam.

Search the internet and you will find thousands more.

Why don't you believe them?

The outrage we see from Muslims is out of scale with the amount of violence inflicted on us by them. Their ideology has for a decade now been the expected motive for any terrorist act. So it is not so much that we don't believe them, we are simply appalled with what meager lip service they offer. What they need to do is radically define which of them are prepared to be a peaceful part of the 21st century, from those who still want to party like it's 699 (CE)

They need to identify who is for peace and who is for converting the world by sword.

To say Islam has a PR problem is like saying Thailand has shown an interest in Buddhism.

Every time an outrage is committed by Muslim extremists the mainstream of Muslim opinion condemns it.

Mainstream Muslims have banned these extremists from preaching in their mosques.

Yet you call this condemnation 'meager (sic) lip service' and refuse to believe them!

Yes, Islam has a PR problem, fuelled mainly by the ignorance and prejudice of those who refuse to accept that the acts and words of the extremists do not represent mainstream Muslims and refuse to believe those mainstream Muslims who condemn the extremists.

[canuckamuck]

canuckamuck.

The link I posted was just one of many which came up when I searched; you will, unfortunately, find many more if you look.

But many of those carried out in recent years, and continuing, are carried out in Africa by Africans and so are rarely reported in the Western media.

I have already posted numerous quotes from Muslims, ordinary people and those who represent them, denouncing this atrocity and others and emphasising that these atrocities do not represent the teachings of Islam.

Search the internet and you will find thousands more.

Why don't you believe them?

The outrage we see from Muslims is out of scale with the amount of violence inflicted on us by them. Their ideology has for a decade now been the expected motive for any terrorist act. So it is not so much that we don't believe them, we are simply appalled with what meager lip service they offer. What they need to do is radically define which of them are prepared to be a peaceful part of the 21st century, from those who still want to party like it's 699 (CE)

They need to identify who is for peace and who is for converting the world by sword.

To say Islam has a PR problem is like saying Thailand has shown an interest in Buddhism.

Every time an outrage is committed by Muslim extremists the mainstream of Muslim opinion condemns it.

Mainstream Muslims have banned these extremists from preaching in their mosques.

Yet you call this condemnation 'meager (sic) lip service' and refuse to believe them!

Yes, Islam has a PR problem, fuelled mainly by the ignorance and prejudice of those who refuse to accept that the acts and words of the extremists do not represent mainstream Muslims and refuse to believe those mainstream Muslims who condemn the extremists.

Nope, it is fueled by innocent people being hacked to pieces and blown up all over the world. And it is fueled by a lack of character to make definitive divisions between peace lovers and terrorists.

[Mosha]

canuckamuck.

The link I posted was just one of many which came up when I searched; you will, unfortunately, find many more if you look.

But many of those carried out in recent years, and continuing, are carried out in Africa by Africans and so are rarely reported in the Western media.

I have already posted numerous quotes from Muslims, ordinary people and those who represent them, denouncing this atrocity and others and emphasising that these atrocities do not represent the teachings of Islam.

Search the internet and you will find thousands more.

Why don't you believe them?

The outrage we see from Muslims is out of scale with the amount of violence inflicted on us by them. Their ideology has for a decade now been the expected motive for any terrorist act. So it is not so much that we don't believe them, we are simply appalled with what meager lip service they offer. What they need to do is radically define which of them are prepared to be a peaceful part of the 21st century, from those who still want to party like it's 699 (CE)

They need to identify who is for peace and who is for converting the world by sword.

To say Islam has a PR problem is like saying Thailand has shown an interest in Buddhism.

Every time an outrage is committed by Muslim extremists the mainstream of Muslim opinion condemns it.

Mainstream Muslims have banned these extremists from preaching in their mosques.

Yet you call this condemnation 'meager (sic) lip service' and refuse to believe them!

Yes, Islam has a PR problem, fuelled mainly by the ignorance and prejudice of those who refuse to accept that the acts and words of the extremists do not represent mainstream Muslims and refuse to believe those mainstream Muslims who condemn the extremists.

They need to do more than condemn. Why don't they carry out citizens arrests?

[simple1]

Seems that Divide and Rule is working here amongst posters.Just what they want. I must admit to being a Fascist because i'm against Mob Rule. Clearly your Cowardly Brits will just roll over. A sad lot!!. Ive never heard such nonsense about Portuguese Police, they defend their Citizens, just as the Army and Brit Cops would do if the Lefty Brit Wimps were silenced.

I trust you really are not a supporter of the facist idealogy as nearly 400k UK citizens died fighting facism in WW11. Perhaps you should cross check the outcomes of facism.

[7by7]

Canuckamuck,

It is you who seem incapable of making the distinction between peace lovers and terrorists!

Mainstream Muslims can, which is why the condemn the activities of the extremists and terrorists.

Mosha,

You probably don't realise this from 6000 miles away, but the vast majority of those in the UK, no matter their race, colour or creed, did not witness this appalling crime.

Why didn't those who did witness it, most of whom were not Muslims, make citizens arrests? Why, instead, did some of them record the event and the murderers ranting; recordings which they then sold to the media!

[Mosha]

Canuckamuck,

It is you who seem incapable of making the distinction between peace lovers and terrorists!

Mainstream Muslims can, which is why the condemn the activities of the extremists and terrorists.

Mosha,

You probably don't realise this from 6000 miles away, but the vast majority of those in the UK, no matter their race, colour or creed, did not witness this appalling crime.

Why didn't those who did witness it, most of whom were not Muslims, make citizens arrests? Why, instead, did some of them record the event and the murderers ranting; recordings which they then sold to the media!

You know what I meant. the hate mongering clerics. I think you are intentionally being obtuse.

Edited May 27, 2013 by Mosha

[canuckamuck]

Canuckamuck,

It is you who seem incapable of making the distinction between peace lovers and terrorists!

Mainstream Muslims can, which is why the condemn the activities of the extremists and terrorists.

Mosha,

You probably don't realise this from 6000 miles away, but the vast majority of those in the UK, no matter their race, colour or creed, did not witness this appalling crime.

Why didn't those who did witness it, most of whom were not Muslims, make citizens arrests? Why, instead, did some of them record the event and the murderers ranting; recordings which they then sold to the media!

You can't tell em apart any better than I can, and that is their fault not mine.

[7by7]

Mosha,

We've gone over this before, but I will repeat:

Ordinary Muslims have condemned those who preach hate and ejected them from their mosques.

But they cannot stop them from preaching on the street or elsewhere.

If these preachers are committing a crime than anyone can report them to the police, who are best equipped to deal with the matter.

As for citizens arrests, from Ask the Police

This area of law is very complex and the following is only basic guidance. The law states that,
•Any person can arrest a person who is in the act of committing an indictable offence or
•Anyone whom he reasonably suspects to be committing such an offence, if ◦it is not reasonably practicable for a constable to make the arrest instead and
◦it is necessary to arrest the person for one of the below reasons,

To prevent the person in question,
•causing physical injury to himself or any other person;
•suffering physical injury;
•causing loss of or damage to property; or
•making off before a constable can assume responsibility for him.

[7by7]

Canuckamuck, not sure what your last post means; but if you are referring to the witnesses to the attacks, the vast majority of those interviewed in the media, and in the background of the videos, were white.

Although there are white Muslims, it's a fair assumption that most of those people are not.

[Mosha]

Mosha,

We've gone over this before, but I will repeat:

Ordinary Muslims have condemned those who preach hate and ejected them from their mosques.

But they cannot stop them from preaching on the street or elsewhere.

If these preachers are committing a crime than anyone can report them to the police, who are best equipped to deal with the matter.

As for citizens arrests, from Ask the Police

This area of law is very complex and the following is only basic guidance. The law states that,

•Any person can arrest a person who is in the act of committing an indictable offence or

•Anyone whom he reasonably suspects to be committing such an offence, if ◦it is not reasonably practicable for a constable to make the arrest instead and

◦it is necessary to arrest the person for one of the below reasons,

To prevent the person in question,

•causing physical injury to himself or any other person;

•suffering physical injury;

•causing loss of or damage to property; or

•making off before a constable can assume responsibility for him.

Then the rest of the UK needs to adopt Scottish law, where breach of the peace is an arrestable offence that can be carried out by citizens. I'd call hate sermons a breach of the peace.

[canuckamuck]

Canuckamuck, not sure what your last post means; but if you are referring to the witnesses to the attacks, the vast majority of those interviewed in the media, and in the background of the videos, were white.

Although there are white Muslims, it's a fair assumption that most of those people are not.

I was saying you can't tell which Muslims groups are clearly for peace, and which ones are enabling Islamist radicals, any better than I can. Due to a failure of the peaceful ones to make clear distinctions.

I never said anything about race. Islam is an ideology, not race.

Edited May 27, 2013 by canuckamuck

[Credo]

The fact is that the root of the problem is deeper than just religion. Religion is a minor justification in an action that is rooted in cultural traditions that pre-date Islam for sure and most likely Christianity. It is a strict culture and a rather violent one and it is endemic to the region from where many of these people emigrate.

They come from a world where violence is endemic.

Not sure how to cure it, but it will take level heads and consistent action. Apologists need not apply.