What's The Smallest Digger Available?

[Somnambulist]

Besides Somchai, I mean. He would probably walk away from this job. I need to excavate a fish pond in my back yard, about 1 X 2 meters with a depth of 150 or 200cm. (While I'm at it I'll also dig some hugelculture swales but those won't be very deep so I could do that by hand.)

My property was built up quite a bit 25 years ago and the ground has some sand and clay but also lots of big rocks, roots, bricks, etc. in it so if I tried to do it myself it'd be like a Groundhog Day experience on the set of Cool Hand Luke. My problem is that unless I beg my neighbor to let a little back hoe drive across her grass and take out a section of her hedge, the only access has a narrow spot only 114 centimeters wide. What can I get through such a narrow opening? All suggestions serious or otherwise welcome.

Edited May 24, 2013 by Somnambulist

[cooked]

Sounds a bit like mine although mine is only 85cm deep (dug down to 100cm). Took me two days by hand including wheeling soil away. I rigged up some shade and made sure that I had plenty of beer on hand. I guess you want to go so deep because you want to have Koi? No need, believe me, I have seen them in ponds only 40cm deep.

There are diggers in Europe of less than 100cm wide, for use by professional gardeners. These are feeble things and for a job this size I would recommend doing it by hand. What happens after you finished digging? You need to do all your concreting or whatever before rains wash your hole full of dirt again.

[Somnambulist]

Sounds a bit like mine although mine is only 85cm deep (dug down to 100cm). Took me two days by hand including wheeling soil away. I rigged up some shade and made sure that I had plenty of beer on hand. I guess you want to go so deep because you want to have Koi? No need, believe me, I have seen them in ponds only 40cm deep.

There are diggers in Europe of less than 100cm wide, for use by professional gardeners. These are feeble things and for a job this size I would recommend doing it by hand. What happens after you finished digging? You need to do all your concreting or whatever before rains wash your hole full of dirt again.

I'm thinking tilapia or groumie, for consumption by my wife and me. I'm not going to use concrete. The pond will be on a slight contour, roughly 2%, so it will also act as a swale, creating an underground lens of water downslope where I'll plant something. To minimize water leakage out the bottom I'll make the bottom have a smaller area than the surface and maybe use bentonite, especially if I don't have a machine to pack it down. The guy whose advising me says I want the pond to be in the sun to encourage algae growth which the fish will eat, hence the extra depth so the fish can keep cool. Well, I've already used several words I've just learned. Everything is still in the early planning stage so I'm open to all the knowledge out there.

[Somnambulist]

BTW, shade + beer = brilliance I don't imbibe anymore but still, worth a rec.

[RedBullHorn]

Can your soil holds water ? Alternative option is not to dig a pond if it is meant for raising fishes as food consumption, build a concrete tank.

[cooked]

You found someone that sells Bentonite? Let us know where please. Concrete is a good solution but a lot of work. I had to complete the job in one day to avoid having any non leaking joints, not for everyone. ( and I certainly won't be doing it again).

I am going to chuck some shrimps into the pond to see what happens.

[Somnambulist]

Can your soil holds water ? Alternative option is not to dig a pond if it is meant for raising fishes as food consumption, build a concrete tank.

I'm definitely going to dig into the ground. I only have 100 sq wah of space at the most in the back yard so a raised tank would stick out like a sore thumb. I assume/hope that with a bit of clay it won't be too porous. I'll have to top it off with rainwater from a tank. Also, there will be a hugelculture swale slightly uphill from the pond which will hopefully feed the pond eventually, once the swale has saturated the wood in the bed.

[Somnambulist]

You found someone that sells Bentonite? Let us know where please. Concrete is a good solution but a lot of work. I had to complete the job in one day to avoid having any non leaking joints, not for everyone. ( and I certainly won't be doing it again).

I am going to chuck some shrimps into the pond to see what happens.

Actually no. If anyone has a source please let us know.

[IsaanAussie]

I dont understand the dimensions here 1x2 metres and 1.5 to 2 metres deep? Cant see that holding together without a concrete wall at least if not floor, it has to be near vertical walls. For that size I doubt you will get anyone to use a machine as it would only be 4 cubic metres and at 30 to 40 baht a metre not worth turning up.

As a thought, buy concrete rings and set them in the ground, Join with cement pipes. Or cut them in half vertically and move the two halfs apart then cast a joining section down each side.

[canuckamuck]

I am confused by the dimensions as well. A 2 meter deep hole which is only 1 meter across will not benefit you fish much more than a 1 meter depth pond. unless you are going to have good circulation. Also, digging down instead building up creates problems for removing waste and changing water, unless you will use a pump.

The optimal solution is a circular tank with concave bottom and a 3" or greater drain hole at the center. If you then have some form of pump you can make the water move continually in a circle and all of the detritus will collect at the drain site and is easily removed by suction or by integrating the drain into your filtration system. All of this is much easier if the water is above ground level.

In any case I wouldn't suggest going past 1 meter for such a small width. Currently I have fish in some tanks that are only 50 cm depth and they are thriving due to circulation. Oxygen and clean water are the keys and a deep hole makes them harder to achieve

As to your original question. It would be very easy to find someone to dig a hole like that with hand tools, I bet it wouldn't cost you more than 600 baht and the guy will even bring a friend.

[Somnambulist]

I dont understand the dimensions here 1x2 metres and 1.5 to 2 metres deep? Cant see that holding together without a concrete wall at least if not floor, it has to be near vertical walls. For that size I doubt you will get anyone to use a machine as it would only be 4 cubic metres and at 30 to 40 baht a metre not worth turning up.

As a thought, buy concrete rings and set them in the ground, Join with cement pipes. Or cut them in half vertically and move the two halfs apart then cast a joining section down each side.

Whoops, total brain fart on the dimensions. I apologize. What I want is two meters by maybe six meters at the surface, a bit less at the bottom. What are the chances of that holding together without cement or a liner?

Canuck - Are your fish in the shade all the time?

[IsaanAussie]

I dont understand the dimensions here 1x2 metres and 1.5 to 2 metres deep? Cant see that holding together without a concrete wall at least if not floor, it has to be near vertical walls. For that size I doubt you will get anyone to use a machine as it would only be 4 cubic metres and at 30 to 40 baht a metre not worth turning up.

As a thought, buy concrete rings and set them in the ground, Join with cement pipes. Or cut them in half vertically and move the two halfs apart then cast a joining section down each side.

Whoops, total brain fart on the dimensions. I apologize. What I want is two meters by maybe six meters at the surface, a bit less at the bottom. What are the chances of that holding together without cement or a liner?

Canuck - Are your fish in the shade all the time?

Same logic on using a machine. Two or three guys with hoes and the materials job done in 3 or 4 days. Maybe 3,000 baht in labour. Hole dug. Cement blocks with concrete foundations and reinforced concrete ring layers every 3 or 4 courses and then render the inside. Backfill the wall and consolidate. Simple stuff. Put a cascade water fall at one one and a cheap submersible pump at the bottom at the other end. Filter box full of biochar or even straw. Aeration and filtration done. You are building a feature not a fish farm, forget chemicals go "green water" natural system where the fish eat what nature provides. Plenty of water plants and microbes.

[sjefrie]

You found someone that sells Bentonite? Let us know where please. Concrete is a good solution but a lot of work. I had to complete the job in one day to avoid having any non leaking joints, not for everyone. ( and I certainly won't be doing it again).

I am going to chuck some shrimps into the pond to see what happens.

Actually no. If anyone has a source please let us know.

There is a topic about Bentonite on Thaivisa

http://www.thaivisa.com/forum/topic/443916-bentonite-and-a-leaky-dam/

Maybe someone can help you there

[CPT]

A trench 2 meters deep, 2 meters wide, and 6 meters long sounds like a bit of a drowning hazard and potentially dangerous to work in/dig. I would suggest you build in a long slope along the 6 meter long dimension to aid in egress and make sure children stay away. In developed countries such a construct would likely require a fence or other barrier, not saying that such is necessary in your case but just be aware as to the dangers.

[canuckamuck]

I dont understand the dimensions here 1x2 metres and 1.5 to 2 metres deep? Cant see that holding together without a concrete wall at least if not floor, it has to be near vertical walls. For that size I doubt you will get anyone to use a machine as it would only be 4 cubic metres and at 30 to 40 baht a metre not worth turning up.

As a thought, buy concrete rings and set them in the ground, Join with cement pipes. Or cut them in half vertically and move the two halfs apart then cast a joining section down each side.

Whoops, total brain fart on the dimensions. I apologize. What I want is two meters by maybe six meters at the surface, a bit less at the bottom. What are the chances of that holding together without cement or a liner?

Canuck - Are your fish in the shade all the time?

Yes my fish have a mesh suspended over the tanks, but they do seem to hang out in the full sun when they get a chance. My fish are red tilapia and appear to like the sun, not all fish can handle Thailand's direct sun in shallow water.

Are you still thinking of going so deep, I think the negatives will outweigh the positives. 1 meter of water depth is plenty and as mentioned considerably safer. Issan Aussies post was good, although I don't quite understand the cement ring portion.

[Somnambulist]

I dont understand the dimensions here 1x2 metres and 1.5 to 2 metres deep? Cant see that holding together without a concrete wall at least if not floor, it has to be near vertical walls. For that size I doubt you will get anyone to use a machine as it would only be 4 cubic metres and at 30 to 40 baht a metre not worth turning up.

As a thought, buy concrete rings and set them in the ground, Join with cement pipes. Or cut them in half vertically and move the two halfs apart then cast a joining section down each side.

Whoops, total brain fart on the dimensions. I apologize. What I want is two meters by maybe six meters at the surface, a bit less at the bottom. What are the chances of that holding together without cement or a liner?

Canuck - Are your fish in the shade all the time?

Yes my fish have a mesh suspended over the tanks, but they do seem to hang out in the full sun when they get a chance. My fish are red tilapia and appear to like the sun, not all fish can handle Thailand's direct sun in shallow water.

Are you still thinking of going so deep, I think the negatives will outweigh the positives. 1 meter of water depth is plenty and as mentioned considerably safer. Issan Aussies post was good, although I don't quite understand the cement ring portion.

Yes, I'm reconsidering the depth now. I had no idea tilapia were so heat tolerant. How have Thais always done their fish ponds? My wife tells me little backyard ponds used to be quite common and I bet they kept their fish alive without pumps and bubblers and filters, etc.

[Somnambulist]

I dont understand the dimensions here 1x2 metres and 1.5 to 2 metres deep? Cant see that holding together without a concrete wall at least if not floor, it has to be near vertical walls. For that size I doubt you will get anyone to use a machine as it would only be 4 cubic metres and at 30 to 40 baht a metre not worth turning up.

As a thought, buy concrete rings and set them in the ground, Join with cement pipes. Or cut them in half vertically and move the two halfs apart then cast a joining section down each side.

Whoops, total brain fart on the dimensions. I apologize. What I want is two meters by maybe six meters at the surface, a bit less at the bottom. What are the chances of that holding together without cement or a liner?

Canuck - Are your fish in the shade all the time?

Same logic on using a machine. Two or three guys with hoes and the materials job done in 3 or 4 days. Maybe 3,000 baht in labour. Hole dug. Cement blocks with concrete foundations and reinforced concrete ring layers every 3 or 4 courses and then render the inside. Backfill the wall and consolidate. Simple stuff. Put a cascade water fall at one one and a cheap submersible pump at the bottom at the other end. Filter box full of biochar or even straw. Aeration and filtration done. You are building a feature not a fish farm, forget chemicals go "green water" natural system where the fish eat what nature provides. Plenty of water plants and microbes.

OK, I'm convinced about digging it by hand. Makes sense the way you put it. The construction jargon went right over my head, though. As for feature vs. farm, I intend to grow enough fish for two people to eat and to use the fish waste as nutrients in the veggie garden.

[David48]

Yes, I'm reconsidering the depth now. I had no idea tilapia were so heat tolerant. How have Thais always done their fish ponds? My wife tells me little backyard ponds used to be quite common and I bet they kept their fish alive without pumps and bubblers and filters, etc.

Wish to know about Fish Farms - fish-farms-201

How deep for a Tilapia Pond, Thai style? Typically sloped sides leading to a pond about 5' deep ... just deep enough for a Thai to stand in the middle of the pond with his/her head above water.

.

While the slopes do seem generous ... two things. They are 'banked as in the earth from the pond is pushed up to increase the water holding capacity while not having to move a lot of dirt around and to act as a barrier as these ponds are built in Flood Plain regions.

Secondly, the wave action causing erosion of the ponds sides, thus making them steeper over time.

Once the pond's built and you are about to fill it from your water source, if you are filling from a canal or river ... don't forget to put a sock over it ... filter the intake and maybe the outflow so that you don't get any other creatures that you don't want in the Pond.

As for "pumps and bubblers and filters, etc." ... depends on your stocking density ... how many fish you have in the pond.

.

[IsaanAussie]

I dont understand the dimensions here 1x2 metres and 1.5 to 2 metres deep? Cant see that holding together without a concrete wall at least if not floor, it has to be near vertical walls. For that size I doubt you will get anyone to use a machine as it would only be 4 cubic metres and at 30 to 40 baht a metre not worth turning up.

As a thought, buy concrete rings and set them in the ground, Join with cement pipes. Or cut them in half vertically and move the two halfs apart then cast a joining section down each side.

Whoops, total brain fart on the dimensions. I apologize. What I want is two meters by maybe six meters at the surface, a bit less at the bottom. What are the chances of that holding together without cement or a liner?

Canuck - Are your fish in the shade all the time?

Same logic on using a machine. Two or three guys with hoes and the materials job done in 3 or 4 days. Maybe 3,000 baht in labour. Hole dug. Cement blocks with concrete foundations and reinforced concrete ring layers every 3 or 4 courses and then render the inside. Backfill the wall and consolidate. Simple stuff. Put a cascade water fall at one one and a cheap submersible pump at the bottom at the other end. Filter box full of biochar or even straw. Aeration and filtration done. You are building a feature not a fish farm, forget chemicals go "green water" natural system where the fish eat what nature provides. Plenty of water plants and microbes.

OK, I'm convinced about digging it by hand. Makes sense the way you put it. The construction jargon went right over my head, though. As for feature vs. farm, I intend to grow enough fish for two people to eat and to use the fish waste as nutrients in the veggie garden.

As part of the setup you could consider building a shallow pool to grow water lettuce and another to grow duck weed. These will absorb the nitrogen elements and many of the other nutrients that will build up. Your harvest the plants and feed to chickens and ducks or compost them. You can also include reed beds and even a gravel filled one to which you add worms. Water is pumped from the pond and through this "canal", over the water fall and back into the pond.