Boy Scouts To Allow Openly Gay Scouts

[Jingthing]

I can assure you with confidence the majority of American gay civil rights activists are very committed to the connection between the two historical movements, and we even have the support of some historic figures from the black civil rights movement on the validity of that deep connection.

I KNOW we are going to win this one in the long run just as we will win the marriage equality battle. Not sure it's worth much energy to "debate" outlying gay people who are taking similar positions as wrong side of history right wing anti-gay groups. The younger Americans are overwhelmingly pro gay civil rights. They understand discrimination against gay people is just wrong in the SAME WAY that racial discrimination is wrong. They just need to grow up.

[Scott]

An openly gay scout leader is probably MUCH less dangerous than a closeted one. I was in Scouts for many, many years and all I can tell you is that there was an awful lot of sexual experimentation that was going on between scouts.

[Jingthing]

  On 5/26/2013 at 10:44 AM, Scott said:

An openly gay scout leader is probably MUCH less dangerous than a closeted one. I was in Scouts for many, many years and all I can tell you is that there was an awful lot of sexual experimentation that was going on between scouts.

Yes, that's normal boyhood behavior for many boys; most will not grow up gay.

Totally agree. This BSA policy bans OPENLY gay leaders. It's definitely the deep closet cases you've got to watch out for but they can stay. Logical? Not.

Another point I want to make about this new policy. The Boy Scouts organization was feeling the political heat in many ways because of their discriminatory policies. They were being correctly stigmatized as bigots. They felt they HAD to do something. I bet they're hoping the heat will go away now. I think it's important that the heat continue and that they continue to be portrayed as the pro discrimination organization that they STILL are.

A famous poster mentioned the BSA was a Christian organization. Not really. It is a non-sectarian organization but they are definitely not supportive of atheism.

No doubt American atheists and agnostics could use a civil rights movement of their own, but that's another story.

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2012/11/07/jews-push-back-against-boy-scouts-over-policy-banning-gays_n_2084336.html

[Scott]

I agree the heat needs to be kept up on the BSA. I just have fewer problems with small steps in the right direction. The Scouts is for the Boys and letting gay boys in is a major step forward. I think that once we have some good examples and they grow up and are seen as productive, reasonably normal people, they will start looking at scout leaders.

It will happen.

[onthemoon]

  On 5/26/2013 at 6:43 AM, CWMcMurray said:

Also to the poster advising that men can not be Girl Scout leaders and so gay men can not be boy scout leaders....

May want to check out the below link to Girl Scouts website ... It clearly states that men can in fact be girl scout leaders

http://www.girlscoutsla.org/pages/about/join_faqs.html

Sent from my iPhone using ThaiVisa app

Quite interesting. So girls scouts allow straight male leaders. Then there is no reason why boy scouts should not allow gay male leaders. Just a thought: Not all adults are pedophiles.

[onthemoon]

  On 5/26/2013 at 4:40 AM, Robby nz said:

  Quote

I would think you were not the target of a homosexual scout master but a pedophile scout master.

This thread is not about pedophile scout masters, but about gay boy scouts. Completely different issue. If you were gay, then you would now be allowed to join and be prepared for life as a man (a gay man, that is), and no longer be excluded. The pedophile scout master that you encountered would still not be allowed to be a scout master. How is this wrong?

A pedophile who targets boys is a homosexual pedophile there can be no doubt about that.

True. But not all homosexuals are pedophiles, and not all pedophiles are homosexuals.

You said "homosexual scout master" and implied that all homosexuals are pedophiles. I strongly object to that.

[sustento]

  On 5/26/2013 at 12:24 PM, Scott said:

I agree the heat needs to be kept up on the BSA. I just have fewer problems with small steps in the right direction. The Scouts is for the Boys and letting gay boys in is a major step forward. I think that once we have some good examples and they grow up and are seen as productive, reasonably normal people, they will start looking at scout leaders.

It will happen.

They're not 'letting gay boys in'. The gay boys are already there. They're just allowing them to be honest.

[onthemoon]

  On 5/27/2013 at 11:12 AM, sustento said:

  On 5/26/2013 at 12:24 PM, Scott said:

I agree the heat needs to be kept up on the BSA. I just have fewer problems with small steps in the right direction. The Scouts is for the Boys and letting gay boys in is a major step forward. I think that once we have some good examples and they grow up and are seen as productive, reasonably normal people, they will start looking at scout leaders.

It will happen.

They're not 'letting gay boys in'. The gay boys are already there. They're just allowing them to be honest.

Good point.

[sustento]

In the UK gays in the military was decided by the ECHR not the military themselves.

[LeCharivari]

  On 5/26/2013 at 2:41 PM, onthemoon said:

  On 5/26/2013 at 6:43 AM, CWMcMurray said:

Also to the poster advising that men can not be Girl Scout leaders and so gay men can not be boy scout leaders....

May want to check out the below link to Girl Scouts website ... It clearly states that men can in fact be girl scout leaders

http://www.girlscoutsla.org/pages/about/join_faqs.html

Sent from my iPhone using ThaiVisa app

Quite interesting. So girls scouts allow straight male leaders. Then there is no reason why boy scouts should not allow gay male leaders. Just a thought: Not all adults are pedophiles.

Just my point - but with all this talk about pedophiles its worth remembering that not all Scouts are children either and in most of the US the age of consent is 16.

In the UK, with the age of consent also 16, its an offence for those "in loco parentis" (teachers, scout leaders, etc) to have sex with

those they are responsible for under 18. In the US there's no such provision.

[Jingthing]

  On 5/27/2013 at 6:12 PM, LeCharivari said:

...

Please confirm: My reading of your post indicates you just accused gay rights advocates of being bigots. Did I read that right? If that was what you meant, can you explain how the people who fight the civil rights of the IDENTITY GROUP people that are represented on this forum are bigots? Who or what are these advocates for gay civil rights bigoted against?

[Jingthing]

  On 5/27/2013 at 6:30 PM, LeCharivari said:

Just my point - but with all this talk about pedophiles its worth remembering that not all Scouts are children either and in most of the US the age of consent is 16.

...

age of consent:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Age_of_Consent_-_North_America.svg

[isanbirder]

Bigot: one blindly or obstinately devoted to a particular creed or party (Chambers English Dictionary). I think that applies to most rights advocates; I haven't noticed many people on this forum paying much attention to the views of the homophobic right.

[Jingthing]

"Bigot" in American context of the fight for gay civil rights.

Bullies beat up gay boy shouting anti-gay slur words. Bigots!

Bloodied gay boy goes to school administration demanding justice against the haters and a school policy to teach TOLERANCE and EQUALITY for sexual minorities. Bigot?

External gay civil rights group comes in to the support that boy and boys like him, victims of homophobic violence, physical and emotional, and sometimes even murder. Also bigots?

The CONTEXT of the word bigotry in the American gay civil rights struggle is about INTOLERANCE of the majority directed towards our tiny minority. That is so obvious. It is so totally wrong to color gay rights advocates as bigots. But the "gay" forum here is full of such surprises.

[Jingthing]

Isn't this topic about the AMERICAN boy scouts?

It's not a military organization.

I guess it's natural though for military types to PROJECT their narrow experience onto the entire world though.

[Jingthing]

I read your post. I don't think the scouts are a military organization. It's boys going camping, mate. All kinds of boys want to join the scouts. It is not NEARLY as limited as the type of men who volunteer for the military. You also are somewhat older, as I am, but I reckon I know more about modern American culture. Its not the same country as England and not the same culture. Many MODERN gay American boys are seriously out, loud, and proud, and yes some of them will want to be scouts. You can take that to the bank. The river bank where the boy scouts camping site is at.

[Morden]

I don't see what the problem is. Baden Powell was a homosexual paedophile and the movement has continued his perversion to this day. Why not bring it out into the open and let parents know what their kids are exposed to?

[onthemoon]

  On 5/28/2013 at 2:25 PM, Morden said:

I don't see what the problem is. Baden Powell was a homosexual paedophile and the movement has continued his perversion to this day. Why not bring it out into the open and let parents know what their kids are exposed to?

I only know about BP what I learned in this thread (including following links).

That does not make the Boyscout Movement a pedophile organisation, it's nonsense to say that.

[Jingthing]

But these people ARE bigots:

http://www.advocate.com/youth/2013/02/06/six-scout-supporters-who-say-gays-are-child-molesters

Again, the bigots on this issue are on the anti-gay side and they are generally hard core ideological RIGHT WINGERS, usually Christian fundamentalists. People fighting AGAINST discrimination are generally NOT bigots. The opposite actually. They are the HEROES for gay civil and human rights all over the world. If gay people ourselves cannot honor that, we are truly sunk.

[OldChinaHam]

There is no Gay Ban in Taiwan on Boy Scouts

Young or Old, or Ancient

As far as I know.

[sustento]

From the Huff:

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/mark-olmsted/why-the-safest-scoutmasters-are-out-scoutmasters_b_3334803.html?utm_hp_ref=gay-voices

Hiding your homosexuality can lead to blackmail. Being open means you have nothing to hide.

[Jingthing]

If the BSA authorities wanted to stop their anti-gay discrimination policies, they could have easily come up with the kind of safeguards you suggest. They didn't want to. Period. The reason they didn't want to is well known by Americans: they are under pressure of the powerful and large American right wing Christian fundamentalist faction and that faction is well understood by Americans to be virulently anti-gay. The BSA is a revered American institution and these anti-gay right wingers are well on record as feeling they are at WAR with the so called homosexual agenda, which yes includes a fight for civil rights in all areas of society. Again, see my link before.

While I am not really married to the "culture wars" model promoted by the right wingers, if it is a war, I know which side I am on, and I also know which side the vast majority of American gay people are on, and happily right now we even have our PRESIDENT on OUR side.

Gay rights politics is different in different countries. In the USA, it is as I describe, extremely partisan, with one major party, the right wing party, still committed to a radical PRO discrimination agenda.

[sustento]

I'm normally happy for things to proceed at a leisurely pace and to sort themselves out over time but the BSA decision is cruel and dishonest. It's saying to young gay scouts that it's ok to be gay until you reach an age where you can be trusted to accept a little responsibility for others. As soon as you reach that age you're no longer trusted.

[Morden]

  On 5/28/2013 at 2:38 PM, onthemoon said:

  On 5/28/2013 at 2:25 PM, Morden said:

I don't see what the problem is. Baden Powell was a homosexual paedophile and the movement has continued his perversion to this day. Why not bring it out into the open and let parents know what their kids are exposed to?

I only know about BP what I learned in this thread (including following links).

That does not make the Boyscout Movement a pedophile organisation, it's nonsense to say that.

Take a look at this link. If you Google 'scoutmaster abuses boy' you will find more cases.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Scouting_sex_abuse_cases

[OldChinaHam]

  On 5/28/2013 at 11:17 PM, sustento said:

I'm normally happy for things to proceed at a leisurely pace and to sort themselves out over time but the BSA decision is cruel and dishonest. It's saying to young gay scouts that it's ok to be gay until you reach an age where you can be trusted to accept a little responsibility for others. As soon as you reach that age you're no longer trusted.

Yes, now you really know what the "A" in BSA stands for............Aypocrisy!

[Scott]

  On 5/27/2013 at 11:12 AM, sustento said:

  On 5/26/2013 at 12:24 PM, Scott said:

I agree the heat needs to be kept up on the BSA. I just have fewer problems with small steps in the right direction. The Scouts is for the Boys and letting gay boys in is a major step forward. I think that once we have some good examples and they grow up and are seen as productive, reasonably normal people, they will start looking at scout leaders.

It will happen.

They're not 'letting gay boys in'. The gay boys are already there. They're just allowing them to be honest.

That is not exactly correct. Some years back there was an Eagle scout who was kicked out for being gay, if I recall correctly.

[Scott]

A lot of posts have been deleted as well as replies. This is about the BSA and this is a gay sub-forum. Homophobic remarks are not tolerated and innuendos to that affect will (and have) resulted in suspensions.

If you wish to discuss the military, you are free to open another topic.

[OldChinaHam]

  On 5/26/2013 at 10:44 AM, Scott said:

An openly gay scout leader is probably MUCH less dangerous than a closeted one. I was in Scouts for many, many years and all I can tell you is that there was an awful lot of sexual experimentation that was going on between scouts.

Pardon me?

Dangerous?

I don't know, but it seems to me that neither would be dangerous, if one were only judging closets, or being closeted.

[Jingthing]

  On 5/29/2013 at 4:10 AM, Scott said:

  On 5/27/2013 at 11:12 AM, sustento said:

  On 5/26/2013 at 12:24 PM, Scott said:

I agree the heat needs to be kept up on the BSA. I just have fewer problems with small steps in the right direction. The Scouts is for the Boys and letting gay boys in is a major step forward. I think that once we have some good examples and they grow up and are seen as productive, reasonably normal people, they will start looking at scout leaders.

It will happen.

They're not 'letting gay boys in'. The gay boys are already there. They're just allowing them to be honest.

That is not exactly correct. Some years back there was an Eagle scout who was kicked out for being gay, if I recall correctly.

I suppose they have other issues such as boys with gay identities (more common to happen much YOUNGER these days) and boys who are just doing normal same sex play on scouting expeditions who aren't really gay. If they had to boot out every boy scout who participated in a wank-a-thon with his buddies, we might be talking about a very small organization indeed.

[sustento]

  On 5/29/2013 at 4:10 AM, Scott said:

  On 5/27/2013 at 11:12 AM, sustento said:

  On 5/26/2013 at 12:24 PM, Scott said:

I agree the heat needs to be kept up on the BSA. I just have fewer problems with small steps in the right direction. The Scouts is for the Boys and letting gay boys in is a major step forward. I think that once we have some good examples and they grow up and are seen as productive, reasonably normal people, they will start looking at scout leaders.

It will happen.

They're not 'letting gay boys in'. The gay boys are already there. They're just allowing them to be honest.

That is not exactly correct. Some years back there was an Eagle scout who was kicked out for being gay, if I recall correctly.

It is exactly correct. There have always been gay boy scouts but previously they've had to hide their sexuality. Now they don't have to.