So You Think You Have Bought From A Reputable Company

[Chazchallenger]

Here goes guys i know this thread has been covered over and over again but just a word of warning,and maybe some advice.

I Purchased my Shadow 400 from Collinbourne Auctions in Pattaya, at the beginning of every auction John the owner and also the auctioneer, explains that there is a buyers fee of 2000 baht on top of the selling price of every bike, and for this he guarantees that all the paperwork is in order. having been an x motor trader from back in the uk, i thought that his word would be by rights his verbal contract to his buyers.

after taking the bike to the dlt myself we were told that although the green book matches all the numbers ect, the chasis did not match the make and model of the bike.

I went back to Collingbournes and they told me no problem they had an agent that could rectify this for a further 6000 baht, obviously to grease some palms, we agreed and waited, and waited, and waited. eventually 7 months later we have been told impossible to do, and that it was actually my fault for going to go and do it legally in the first place. when i asked about his guarantees as to the paperwork being correct i soon found out that actually his guarantee wasnt worth a <deleted>.k.

here is the thing, im moving to hua hin, where the traffic police seem to be much more on the ball than pattaya, i know i can still tax the bike every year in the previous falangs name but if moving province am i suppose to change the province of the plates, as obviously this is going to be impossible using the donor green book.

[BSJ]

Looks like you have an unsolvable problem!

Yes it does look like Collingburnes guarantee is more sh1t than substance.

[commande]

If you have his guarantee in writing take it to a Thai law firm. Should be pretty cheap to get everything sorted, bottom line I would push for him to take the bike back and refund all your money. Guarantees in Thailand that are in writing are considered to be essentially written in blood and are virtually iron clad, you wouldn't have to work very hard or pay the lawyer very much money to sort this one out.

Edited May 27, 2013 by commande

[watcharacters]

If you have his guarantee in writing take it to a Thai law firm. Should be pretty cheap to get everything sorted, bottom line I would push for him to take the bike back and refund all your money. Guarantees in Thailand that are in writing are considered to be essentially written in blood and are virtually iron clad, you wouldn't have to work very hard or pay the lawyer very much money to sort this one out.

.

The OP says he had a verbal guarantee.

How much is that worth?

Even if it was in writing, I'm curious as to the cost to rectify this with a Thai lawyer. Can you give a ball park figure, please?

[commande]

If you have his guarantee in writing take it to a Thai law firm. Should be pretty cheap to get everything sorted, bottom line I would push for him to take the bike back and refund all your money. Guarantees in Thailand that are in writing are considered to be essentially written in blood and are virtually iron clad, you wouldn't have to work very hard or pay the lawyer very much money to sort this one out.

.

The OP says he had a verbal guarantee.

How much is that worth?

Even if it was in writing, I'm curious as to the cost to rectify this with a Thai lawyer. Can you give a ball park figure, please?

Last time I had an issue it cost around 5000-6000 baht and was resolved in 3 weeks; they sent a letter and had a couple phone calls with the guy, I got my 350k baht back and this was a car dealer in Bangkok. Verbal agreement (I missed that part of the thread), well going to be very hard to pursue which is why I always get everything in writing, if it's not in writing I walk away especially in Thailand. Most Thai's know very well that anything in writing is rock solid, you get a lawyer and they instantly give up because they know they will loose.

All this being said there has been some money exchanged to solve the situation which verifies and validates there is an issue, the 6000 baht so this might help to solidify the case. Goes to court your looking at maybe 10,000-15,000 baht because it's a simple issue really, the judge just needs to make a decision based on what data is provided. You never know, one way the judge may look at this is that the bike was sold to be road worthy but in fact it isn't because of paperwork issues, that alone could void the deal making it an fraudulent sale based on perceived intent - intent meaning that you could legally drive it on the road and legally register and maintain the bike as road worthy.

Hope everything works out.

Edited May 27, 2013 by commande

[VocalNeal]

My take is that it is an auction.

As an agent for the seller, and that is all he is, the auctioneer has to take the word of the seller. Unless he is willing to separately go to the Land Transport Authority and verify it is correct. Unlikely, for his minimal fee.

So the thread should read. "I bought something cheap at an auction and it hasn't turned out to be the bargain I expected"

[Garry]

Looks like you have an unsolvable problem!

Yes it does look like Collingburnes guarantee is more sh1t than substance.

Concrete guarantee. As soon as it leaves the concrete, no guarantee.!

[JonnyF]

Could you get a legit chassis that matches the model/year of the bike and then rebuild the bike around the new chassis and then change the details to the new chassis in the green book? Or would you need the bike to be in your name before you can change the details?

I know it's a ton of hassle but probably worth it (if it's possible...). Better than having a bike that you don't officially own.

[VocalNeal]

This is from their website

"Using our Pattaya Motor Auction service is a great way to buy or sell a car, motorbike/scooter, pickup, boat, ATV, jetski or truck because we hold the vehicle and the money until it is transferred into the new owners name. If there are any problems you get your money back or your vehicle back! It is that simple!"

So one will assume that the money and the vehicle are held "in escrow" until the transfer is confirmed. So what happened in the OP's case?

[lemoncake]

OP, let me help you out as i had gone through identical experience, but with a different auction house.

Firstly you DO NOT need any written guarantee or the verbal promise.

You should have a receipt of paid 6000 baht to re-register the bike, this is evidence enough.

You do need to get a lawyer, will not cost more than 10K which i think is worth it.

In my experience, i bought 4 bikes and was charged 2500 baht(from memory) to transfer to my name, as it turned out bikes could not be transferred because of similar reasons of not matching numbers, one bike was apparently stolen or something like that.

Anyhow, first lawyer send them a letter along with receipt of payment for transfer demanding to make papers of have full refund (within specified time)

They responded immediately, but cut the story short, it took about 4-5 months and everything was done.

You can insists on full refund plus interest, but it will cost around 25K legal, including court fees and you will win.

[Chazchallenger]

thanks for all the info guys, but with regards to the 6000 baht to transfer the name no monies changed hands because the transaction was never complete. although i do have the original bill of sale from the auction house.

To be honest i do think the auction house did contact the previous seller, but they had been paid out 7 months before and were obviously having none of it. i did bring up the fact that that i thought the previous seller should of been contacted six months before and advised of the problem when i first took the bike back.

with regards about buying from an auction,

a. as per the section on the web page stating if there is a problem you get your monies back.

B. as at the beginning of the auction the statement guaranteeing all paperwork comes from the auction and not the previous seller.

C. i guess trhis is a little gulible but i trust buying from a fellow englishman and company than paying over the odds from a back street pattaya dealer.

withregards to your comment jonnyf i think this would be possible but you cant just change the chassis on the green book you would have to apply for a new green book which costs about 80,000 baht thats without all the other costs involved.

in reality i did not mind keeping the bike but at its realistic value, i know i can still tax the bike and keep it in the previous falangs name, but at the same time i know if i was going to sell this bike in this manner, then i would only get about 50 percent of its true value, and it would probably put off about 90 percent off buyers knowing that its non transferable.

i have done quite a bit of reserch and this same kind of thread is cropping up on here more and more, truth is its only in the last 18 month or so that all the dlt offices have become computerised, to the point where they equipped all there inspectors with iphones and all they do is google the make of bike and the first 4 digits of the chassis and hey presto they have the make and model the bike is suppose to be. prior to all this happening it was common practise to use a donor green book, from another bike to get these grey imports registered.

the last paragraph of my original question still stands if i was staying around chonburi i know i have no problems to carry on driving taxing and using, my worry is that with my move to hua hin, am i going to be forever pulled by the plod and asked why on chonburi plates, in other words do i legally have to change to hua hin province plates.

[Bingo66]

Farang? Pattaya? Auctioning used bikes???

What did you expect it to be, how is it even legal to work as an auctioneer. I would struggle with buying tooth paste from a farang company in pattaya.

[IDL]

Hey Chaz,

Now you've moved this post, I'm not sure if you will continue looking at the other one. So here's my input:

Mate, I feel for you...my whole fiasco has come flooding back to
mind!

Firstly, I'm sure you know that Pattaya (not unlike Samui & Phuket)
has, what seems to be, it's own law/officialdom. Though [in my experience]
anything first authenticated/stamped in the capital [bkk] 'seems' to be
honoured/undisputed country-wide, for things (vehicles in this case) local-fied
(such as the 3 abovementioned areas) I would anticipate no end of being
targeted, in Hua-Hin.

I am also of the thought that 'things are changing' due to the new market of big bikes.

Had the top brands not started producing for the local market, it's a sure bet that

things would have remained the same. Let's face it, how many BIBs do/did you

see riding the bigger grey-imports.

Then there's the matter of how good your insurance is (as
described in my post -
http://www.thaivisa.com/forum/topic/639409-still-buy-an-old-big-bike-but-do-be-ultra-careful/),

when needed.

If I were you, I would do whatever necessary to get the book
sorted, or, if it simply isn't possible, sell the thing [in Patts] and get
another one (with the benefit of hindsight and all the official stuff sorted
before final payment).

Worth noting that in my case a top figure in DLT must have taken pity on me, as he

eventually folded and got the job done! Rightly or wrongly, I'm guessing he felt I was

a victim, had jumped through so many hoops to fix the problem, and perhaps rationalized

it's better to have a bike on the road that's 'legal'...I don't know, just guessing that's why

he helped. Please also note that no bribe, hand-out or 'tip' ever entered the equation.

Oh, and I have since sold the bike (with full disclosure to the buyer) and had it transferred

to his name, in a different/more convenient DLT office; though the new owner does

reside in same province.

Didn't mean to make any of that sound 'easy', just you, like I,
have been burned before, we gotta learn something, right?

Good luck buddy and keep us posted.

[lemoncake]

Farang? Pattaya? Auctioning used bikes???

What did you expect it to be, how is it even legal to work as an auctioneer. I would struggle with buying tooth paste from a farang company in pattaya.

and here we go the rubbish truck arrived

[lemoncake]

thanks for all the info guys, but with regards to the 6000 baht to transfer the name no monies changed hands because the transaction was never complete. although i do have the original bill of sale from the auction house.

To be honest i do think the auction house did contact the previous seller, but they had been paid out 7 months before and were obviously having none of it. i did bring up the fact that that i thought the previous seller should of been contacted six months before and advised of the problem when i first took the bike back.

with regards about buying from an auction,

a. as per the section on the web page stating if there is a problem you get your monies back.

B. as at the beginning of the auction the statement guaranteeing all paperwork comes from the auction and not the previous seller.

C. i guess trhis is a little gulible but i trust buying from a fellow englishman and company than paying over the odds from a back street pattaya dealer.

withregards to your comment jonnyf i think this would be possible but you cant just change the chassis on the green book you would have to apply for a new green book which costs about 80,000 baht thats without all the other costs involved.

in reality i did not mind keeping the bike but at its realistic value, i know i can still tax the bike and keep it in the previous falangs name, but at the same time i know if i was going to sell this bike in this manner, then i would only get about 50 percent of its true value, and it would probably put off about 90 percent off buyers knowing that its non transferable.

i have done quite a bit of reserch and this same kind of thread is cropping up on here more and more, truth is its only in the last 18 month or so that all the dlt offices have become computerised, to the point where they equipped all there inspectors with iphones and all they do is google the make of bike and the first 4 digits of the chassis and hey presto they have the make and model the bike is suppose to be. prior to all this happening it was common practise to use a donor green book, from another bike to get these grey imports registered.

the last paragraph of my original question still stands if i was staying around chonburi i know i have no problems to carry on driving taxing and using, my worry is that with my move to hua hin, am i going to be forever pulled by the plod and asked why on chonburi plates, in other words do i legally have to change to hua hin province plates.

I believe you have to re-register in the new province, especially when you are the new owner.

I know with the bikes i bought, all were from different provinces and all had to changed over.

I would still contact lawyer and see, or you can always pay 500 baht fines and possibly never be able to sell the bike

[IDL]

Back in the day (damn I sound like my father now) [10+yrs], I was advised to change [bike's] province to where I lived because vehicles could only be MOT-checked/taxed from the office/province to which it was registered; was never told it was a law. However, I believe (too many variables to be certain) now that is not the case.

I know I ramble on and tend to repeat myself, but your most important issue [in my mind] is validity of insurance. For your sake, and that of others, it would be advisable to check that out.

And then there is the inconvenience/frustration of repeatedly being pulled by the BIBs.

[piston broke]

As my old uncle Percy used to say - "caviar temptor"

[thaicbr]

As far as i'm aware the test and taxing of the bike will not be a problem on the current plate/green book.

It's just that SOME transport offices do not like to do the transfer because it then becomes their responsibility.

just ensure hat it has TAX on it.

[jaapfries]

As my old uncle Percy used to say - "caviar temptor"

I doubt that; I reckon Uncle Percy used to say "caviat emptor", as this story has nothing to do with any fish-eggs . . . . . . . .

[Shurup]

Op, in reply to your last reply, what all this give you in the end? Even if you sort out TAX and police issue, you still own a bike that you don't legally own and most importantly can't sell for a decent amount. Get it sorted through the lawyer and be done with it, get your money back and buy a legal bike. You bought it "broken" and now having headaches trying to fix something that can't be fixed.

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[CBR250]

As my old uncle Percy used to say - "caviar temptor"

I doubt that; I reckon Uncle Percy used to say "caviat emptor", as this story has nothing to do with any fish-eggs . . . . . . . .

I thought the while story was a bit fishy, and the Pattaya auction is certainly on the nose. But I'm not bream full of confidence that you should question the whiting of Uncle Percy. He is not one to go pla, pla, pla just for the hake of it.

[Baerboxer]

Would you by a motor bike or car from and Englsihman called "John" ?

Seriously, see a lawyer. Don't waste time, just get the lawyer on it pronto. From what you've posted, you'll win. Good luck and do post the outcome.

[BSJ]

This is from their website

"Using our Pattaya Motor Auction service is a great way to buy or sell a car, motorbike/scooter, pickup, boat, ATV, jetski or truck because we hold the vehicle and the money until it is transferred into the new owners name. If there are any problems you get your money back or your vehicle back! It is that simple!"

So one will assume that the money and the vehicle are held "in escrow" until the transfer is confirmed. So what happened in the OP's case?

Well that's solved everything! You should go out there tomorrow and have a word with him. Him only. Talk to anyone else out there and it will only muddy the water.

Ps: dON't forget to take a micro recorder with you.....

Edited May 29, 2013 by BSJ

[loserlazer]

Just destroy the bike with a sledgehammer in front if his shop while an auction is going on.

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[thaicbr]

Just destroy the bike with a sledgehammer in front if his shop while an auction is going on.

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Why! Can still tax and insure the bike. Can still ride the bike legally. Probably could rereg it at a different transport office. This is the reality of older bikes.

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[BSJ]

Just destroy the bike with a sledgehammer in front if his shop while an auction is going on.

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"Just destroy the bike with a sledgehammer in front if his shop while an auction is going on."

Prey tell O wise one, exactly what will this prove?

[loserlazer]

better than riding an illegal bike and get stopped by the police 5 times a day bsj.

At least this way, you can show the shop your frustration and let their customers see and notice this fiasco and call the Television reporters there too and let everyone be aware of this including some powerful officials. Once this is in television channels, sure someone will take care of this.

[Shurup]

Surely someone will take care of a guy with a sledgehammer, no doubts about it. But I know what you mean...

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[IDL]

better than riding an illegal bike and get stopped by the police 5 times a day bsj.

At least this way, you can show the shop your frustration and let their customers see and notice this fiasco and call the Television reporters there too and let everyone be aware of this including some powerful officials. Once this is in television channels, sure someone will take care of this.

555...probably get arrested for threatening behaviour, possession of a dangerous weapon, and fined for 'littering' for every part that lands on the floor. The [financial] losses would spiral out of control.

[thaicbr]

better than riding an illegal bike and get stopped by the police 5 times a day bsj.

At least this way, you can show the shop your frustration and let their customers see and notice this fiasco and call the Television reporters there too and let everyone be aware of this including some powerful officials. Once this is in television channels, sure someone will take care of this.

One problem... If the bike is taxed and insured with a plate and green book then for the police its legal. Its only SOME transport offices that are cracking down on transfers onto their own books. The bike can be taxed and insured and ridden on the existing book.

I can understand the Op's frustration but this is Thailand and its an older bike. That's how it was done.

It's probably the likes of Mityon big bike shops putting pressure/money on the transport office (just speculation but considering they own the Kawasaki AND Honda big bike shops. May be correct )

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